[Deleted]

[Alaris]

I was going to post something similar in your other thread on the angels in Revelation and put in the Zechariah quote. I'm glad I waited as you've given me something to chew on for a bit. Gracias.

Alaris

[Alaris]

I made an extensive case that the two olive trees are James and John - John being told by the angel at the end of Chapter 10 (just before the two witnesses are mentioned in Chapter 11) that he must prophesy again:

Revelation 10: 11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

A lot of LDS immediately toss the idea of John being one of the two witnesses since he's translated, but he was careful to correct Peter about not tasting death whereas the three nephites received that specific promise (Also we know the two witnesses are essentially invulnerable for a time, which sounds exactly like translation--more on this later:)

John 21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

^ A little commentary from the man himself after he saw the end from the beginning!

See the correction in 23? I've read somewhere that John may have wrote his testimony after the Book of Revelation, so he may have already seen what his "thou must prophesy again before many peoples" entails.

Moreover, there's this specific wording from the Lord when James and John address the Lord about his right hand and left:

Mark 10:35 ¶ And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

Here is the same account in Matthew - I believe it was the mother who asked rather than the sons, and she may have asked after the sons revealed what the Lord had shown them concerning this subject:

Matthew 20:20 ¶ Then came to him the mother of Zebedee’s children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Then there is the sons of thunder:

Mark 3:17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:

The seven thunders:

Revelation 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

I got a little carried away on the fonts, but they are thunders after all.

So I basically used Zechariah 4 to show that the two olive trees stand on either side of the seven candled candlestick - the Menorah - James and John are next in line in authority to the seven. That is why they are the sons of thunder - they are not yet thunder themselves.

They were brought in closer proximity to the Lord along with Peter which is highly symbolic of their more advanced status than the rest of the apostles.

These three apostles were at mount transfiguration where the father was hidden in a cloud - hidden because they hadn't overcome the sixth level to have the father revealed:

Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
...
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

The sixth promise:

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

We know John still has a mission:

D&C 77:14 Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?
A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things.

You have correctly pointed out that this does not necessarily mean John himself is Elias, but it does mean that John still has a mission to play.

But wait there's more!

So there's D&C 7:

1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.

2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.

3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.

4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.

5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.

6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.

7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.

8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired.

Finally, Peter, James, and John are in the temple. Why are James and John there if not to illustrate something deeper about eternal progression or even the destiny of our world. When they are sent in their true form, they cast out Satan just before we enter the Terrestrial world. Suddenly "I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come" makes a lot more sense. It is STILL the duty of these three to cast out Satan before we enter the Terrestrial state of the Millennium.

Did I say finally? I forgot to mention that James and John may have both birthrights. Their mother Salome is the sister of Mary and receive the Davidic birthright of Judah through her. Their father has the birthright of Ephraim.

You can read my source here - http://ldssoul.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=241 - though the real source is the person he's quoting and I believe he has incorrectly come to the conclusion that John is the DS if I remember correctly. He did not consider John's brother .. James as is understandable given MMP is not at the forefront of everyone's mind.

There are 3-4 scriptures that have key phrases that all tie into each other to reinforce this theory. Isaiah 11 and Revelation 11 both talk about fire coming from their lips (both the root and rod and the two witnesses) to devour or destroy their enemies. D&C 113 says the root and rod have both birthrights of Joseph and Judah.

D&C 113:3 What is the rod spoken of in the first verse of the 11th chapter of Isaiah, that should come of the Stem of Jesse?
4 Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power.
5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?
6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.

Finally Moses 7:62 ties back several important elements:

Moses 7:61 And the day shall come that the earth shall rest, but before that day the heavens shall be darkened, and a veil of darkness shall cover the earth; and the heavens shall shake, and also the earth; and great tribulations shall be among the children of men, but my people will I preserve;62 And righteousness will I send down out of heaven; and truth will I send forth out of the earth, to bear testimony of mine Only Begotten; his resurrection from the dead; yea, and also the resurrection of all men; and righteousness and truth will I cause to sweep the earth as with a flood, to gather out mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, unto a place which I shall prepare, an Holy City, that my people may gird up their loins, and be looking forth for the time of my coming; for there shall be my tabernacle, and it shall be called Zion, a New Jerusalem.

Here's Isaiah 11 and Revelation 11 for tying them all together:

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

(Verse 10 sounds like the Palestinians)

As far as Elias being someone in addition to the two witnesses, I'll need to chew on that some more. Thanks again for the post!

[Alaris]

Just a quick couple of counter points.

First, the Lord makes several appearances starting small scale... Perhaps just starting with the end times Elias. He appears to the 144,000 then the church then all people. If the witnesses die any time after the first appearance then is the Lord's word fulfilled "until I come." John will likely be at even the first appearance.

Secondly I realize James being one of the two witnesses is a big pill to swallow. However I believe the clue is in Moses 7:62 that righteousness comes from heaven and truth (John) comes from the earth. This would be James born into a new identity as he was the first of the martyred apostles... Which would be another weight to throw on the scale. The first martyr shall be the last martyr and the last martyr shall be the first.

[Hogmeister]

Elias: latter day Elias is the keys and spirit/power of Elijah = the Restored priesthood of the LDS church.

"But if I spend much more time in conversing about the spirit of Elias I shall not have time to do justice to the spirit & power of Elijah, this is the Elias spoken of in the last days & here is the rock upon which many split thinking the time was past in the days of John & Christ & no more to be, but the spirit of Elias was revealed to me & I know it is true therefore I speak with boldness for I know verily my doctrine is true." Joseph Smith

The 2 witnesses is likely 2 nations (olive trees) dressed in "sackcloth" (as opposed to glory) = USA and Israel. Godless/decieved nations and peoples everywhere will rejoice when these 2 Godfearing nations die and lose their power.

The beast is the NWO conspiracy.

[harakim]

The problem with this scenario is that the prophecy is already known. We know these two will be killed, and stay killed for 3 and a half days, and it will be a violent death via a beast. What father would knowingly send his sons to their deaths? What sons would knowingly go to their deaths? So, maybe it won't be his own sons. But the same applies for other people's sons. This is a mystery still, in my opinion.

A good one, in this case. This world is but a moment

Perhaps this man and his sons are made of the same tough stuff, viewing this with glee instead of fear?

If you were going to be an integral part of the end of times, how could you not!?

[davedan]

Zech 5

1 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.

flying roll = flying "megillah" = missile

3 This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: .... 4 and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.

curse consumes timber and stones = nuclear

7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.
8 And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.
9 And he said, This is wickedness.

lead = plutonium
woman = "isha", "aisha" = fire offering
ephah of lead upon its mouth = plutonium warhead