A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

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Z2100
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A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by Z2100 »

I hope this doesn’t offend anyone of a non-white ethnicity.

White/Caucasian: White (Tribe of Ephraim?)

Black/African American: The Seed of Cain

Latino: A mix of Lamanite and white

Native American: Lamanite/White mixed with Lamanite /Nephite-Lamanite/ Nephite-Lamanite-White
(Note that some Nephites mixed with Lamanites thus adding the group Nephite-Lamanite)

Asian: One of the tribes of Israel

Indian: One of the tribes of Israel

Et cetera with each race...

*All races on Earth are of the House Israel*

If you have read all volumes of “Doctrines of Salvation” with an open mind and heart, you should understand some things:

1. How much faith we had in the pre-existence determines/determines how our Earth life will be like

2. How faithful we were in the pre-existence got us placed in the races we were placed in.

We are not taught this anymore in church, but it was commonly taught in the early days of the Church.

The seed of Cain and the Lamanites have one thing in common: They both faced death and destruction from White Gentiles at some time in Telestial World Histroy.


Read https://www.lds.org/ensign/1972/09/what ... e?lang=eng for reference

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Ezekiel
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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by Ezekiel »

This is a cool topic of discussion. I personally believe the Jaredites were Asian.

An interesting read:
http://www.cometozarahemla.org/jaredite ... dites.html

Z2100
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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by Z2100 »

Ezekiel wrote: September 1st, 2017, 5:24 am This is a cool topic of discussion. I personally believe the Jaredites were Asian.

An interesting read:
http://www.cometozarahemla.org/jaredite ... dites.html
Cool :)

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inho
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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by inho »

Z2100 wrote: August 31st, 2017, 8:03 pm If you have read all volumes of “Doctrines of Salvation” with an open mind and heart, you should understand some things:

1. How much faith we had in the pre-existence determines/determines how our Earth life will be like

2. How faithful we were in the pre-existence got us placed in the races we were placed in.

We are not taught this anymore in church, but it was commonly taught in the early days of the Church.
There might be a reason why we are not taught that in the church anymore. The reason is that it is not doctrinal.

I accept the point 1. It is clear that the premortal life has some effect on our mortal life. However, I don't think it necessarily have anything to do with race.


Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else.

https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the ... d?lang=eng
I know that the quote above talks only about "unrighteous actions in a premortal life", but I think that it can be generalized to say that premortal life does not determine your race in any way.

Z2100
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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by Z2100 »

inho wrote: September 1st, 2017, 7:41 am
Z2100 wrote: August 31st, 2017, 8:03 pm If you have read all volumes of “Doctrines of Salvation” with an open mind and heart, you should understand some things:

1. How much faith we had in the pre-existence determines/determines how our Earth life will be like

2. How faithful we were in the pre-existence got us placed in the races we were placed in.

We are not taught this anymore in church, but it was commonly taught in the early days of the Church.
There might be a reason why we are not taught that in the church anymore. The reason is that it is not doctrinal.

I accept the point 1. It is clear that the premortal life has some effect on our mortal life. However, I don't think it necessarily have anything to do with race.


Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else.

https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the ... d?lang=eng
I know that the quote above talks only about "unrighteous actions in a premortal life", but I think that it can be generalized to say that premortal life does not determine your race in any way.

Thanks for your réponse. Point two is just what’s in the DoS :)

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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by Alaris »

The amount of time the adversary spends trying to polarize white males is as much of a witness that from such comes the birthright tribe as any. That's rule # 12 from Saul Alinsky - a man who dedicated his book "Rules for Radicals" to Lucifer. Ridicule (mocking) is one of his tactics for those of you still wondering if that's a valid tool we should be using on each other to win a debate.

Image

I have often wondered about Asians and Indians and where they fit in all of this, but I do not believe they are of Israel. I believe the vast majority of peoples on the earth are not Israel but they will most, if not all, be given a chance to join Israel by the time the Millennium comes to a close.

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stillwater
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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by stillwater »

It is worth pointing out that this list of "races" is not a list of heritages or lineages, but a list of radically oversimplified phenotypes. For instance, "black" or "african" actually includes thousands of different races (genotypes that are lineage-based) which are often more genetically distinct from each other than they are from white northern-europeans. Meaning, genetically speaking, that white northern europeans are much more closely related to some black africans than those black africans are to some other black africans.

Suppose we interpret the scriptures about Cain's seed being black to mean that their skin had higher melanin content. I don't do that, but suppose we do. That does not necessarily mean that any or all black people today are related to Cain, or that their skin is tied in any way to a similar curse. Aboriginal australians make this point well, but the same point applies to all of Africa. If we're going to choose a group of "black" people and call them Cain's seed, we have as much reason to suppose it is the Aboriginal Australians as anyone else (which, to be clear, is zero reason). If you are going to say it is black africans, then which black africans? As I point out above, it makes more genetic (lineage) sense to lump white people in with some african tribes than to lump all black africans together.

Z2100
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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by Z2100 »

stillwater wrote: September 1st, 2017, 10:41 am It is worth pointing out that this list of "races" is not a list of heritages or lineages, but a list of radically oversimplified phenotypes. For instance, "black" or "african" actually includes thousands of different races (genotypes that are lineage-based) which are often more genetically distinct from each other than they are from white northern-europeans. Meaning, genetically speaking, that white northern europeans are much more closely related to some black africans than those black africans are to some other black africans.

Suppose we interpret the scriptures about Cain's seed being black to mean that their skin had higher melanin content. I don't do that, but suppose we do. That does not necessarily mean that any or all black people today are related to Cain, or that their skin is tied in any way to a similar curse. Aboriginal australians make this point well, but the same point applies to all of Africa. If we're going to choose a group of "black" people and call them Cain's seed, we have as much reason to suppose it is the Aboriginal Australians as anyone else (which, to be clear, is zero reason). If you are going to say it is black africans, then which black africans? As I point out above, it makes more genetic (lineage) sense to lump white people in with some african tribes than to lump all black africans together.
Your analysis is good. I was just trying to simplify the race spectrum without listing every single kind of race on Earth.

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stillwater
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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by stillwater »

Z2100 wrote: September 1st, 2017, 11:09 am
stillwater wrote: September 1st, 2017, 10:41 am It is worth pointing out that this list of "races" is not a list of heritages or lineages, but a list of radically oversimplified phenotypes. For instance, "black" or "african" actually includes thousands of different races (genotypes that are lineage-based) which are often more genetically distinct from each other than they are from white northern-europeans. Meaning, genetically speaking, that white northern europeans are much more closely related to some black africans than those black africans are to some other black africans.

Suppose we interpret the scriptures about Cain's seed being black to mean that their skin had higher melanin content. I don't do that, but suppose we do. That does not necessarily mean that any or all black people today are related to Cain, or that their skin is tied in any way to a similar curse. Aboriginal australians make this point well, but the same point applies to all of Africa. If we're going to choose a group of "black" people and call them Cain's seed, we have as much reason to suppose it is the Aboriginal Australians as anyone else (which, to be clear, is zero reason). If you are going to say it is black africans, then which black africans? As I point out above, it makes more genetic (lineage) sense to lump white people in with some african tribes than to lump all black africans together.
Your analysis is good. I was just trying to simplify the race spectrum without listing every single kind of race on Earth.
I guess that is my point. Starting that way means that the whole line of inquiry begins from a bad premise. It's like saying "ok we'll assume that North America is the "land northward" and South America is the "land southward" because clearly they are separated by a "narrow neck of land", and we'll figure out the rest of Book of Mormon geography from there". From 1000 miles up it seems to make sense (like simplifying human races into "white," "black," "asian," etc), but once you get into the details you find that doesn't make sense at all. Just as you'll never map scriptural geography onto real geography if you start off making very bad assumptions, and you'll never map the scriptural discussions of lineage onto real human beings if you start out with the racial assumptions made in your post. I'm not accusing you of creating those assumptions, of course. But whoever created them, they are wrong and lead only to dead ends and wasted time.

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Elizabeth
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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by Elizabeth »

Stillwater, The Aboriginal peoples of Australia are brown, not black as is the Negro of Africa.

simpleton
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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by simpleton »

Very simply put, according to Joseph Smith's original translation of the BofM , dark skin was a curse. But of course beings we are politically correct and because of Spencer w Kimball's supposed revelation, now, that is not the case. But the standard works define the dark skin as a curse from God and anybody that says it is not "doctrinal" is not reading their scriptures with an open mind, as it is so very plain to see. Also you read all that the early day (1800's and into the 1900s) apostles and prophets had to say on the "touchy" subject and they all were on the same page. But again here we are today more " politically correct" than ever. But all the political correctness in the world is not going to change the skin color or the curse of dark skin that God Himself imposed upon some certain races. According to the scriptures anyways. In book of Mormon when the lamanites became righteous the cursed was removed at a certain point in there lives and they became " white and delightsome" again. But I am sure their are some that will argue that also as they have changed the word " white" to "pure". But I will take Joseph's translation first and foremost...

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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by SmallFarm »

Race is a fiction.

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SmallFarm
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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by SmallFarm »

If you "passed" as a white person in segregated America, you hid your heritage and lived as a white person.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_(racial_identity)

Z2100
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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by Z2100 »

simpleton wrote: September 2nd, 2017, 10:18 am Very simply put, according to Joseph Smith's original translation of the BofM , dark skin was a curse. But of course beings we are politically correct and because of Spencer w Kimball's supposed revelation, now, that is not the case. But the standard works define the dark skin as a curse from God and anybody that says it is not "doctrinal" is not reading their scriptures with an open mind, as it is so very plain to see. Also you read all that the early day (1800's and into the 1900s) apostles and prophets had to say on the "touchy" subject and they all were on the same page. But again here we are today more " politically correct" than ever. But all the political correctness in the world is not going to change the skin color or the curse of dark skin that God Himself imposed upon some certain races. According to the scriptures anyways. In book of Mormon when the lamanites became righteous the cursed was removed at a certain point in there lives and they became " white and delightsome" again. But I am sure their are some that will argue that also as they have changed the word " white" to "pure". But I will take Joseph's translation first and foremost...
Yep. Totally agree with you. Political correctness has caused us to not-understand some of the most basic tenets of History.

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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by RAB »

Wow. How is someone not supposed to be offended by a claim that they are not white because they didn't live as righteously in the pre-existence as others? So, I guess Ted Bundy, Ted Kazinski, Jeffrey Daumer, Charles Manson, Adolf Hitler, etc. were all super righteous in the pre-existence because they were white, but just took a wrong turn when they got here.

When I read the scriptures, I see that God is no respecter of persons. I see that the Christ explained that the child, nor his parents, sinned when he was born blind. I learn that we are punished for our own sins. I see that the curse of the Lamanites was in their being cut off from the presence of the Lord, and that the curse was removed when they were reunited with God.

For a thoughtful discussion concerning the "dark skins" of the Lamanites being figurative, rather than literal, and textual proofs in the Book of Mormon supporting such an interpretation read the following: https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book ... e_curse.3F

The link also explains that it was Joseph Smith that changed the 1840 BoM edition to "pure and delightsome." However, in later versions editors based the publication on the 1837 edition which did not have the correction in it. The correction was made in 1981 to bring the published BofM into conformity with Joseph's early edits and the prepublication manuscripts, rather than relying on previous editions (in other words, going to the source instead of relying on copies of copies).

Concerning valiance in the pre-existence, and early leader's teachings, I think Jeffrey R. Holland's and Bruce R. McConkie's quotes found below are most instructive:

"Myth #2: Blacks were neutral or less valiant in the pre-existence

This terrible teaching was repudiated by none other than Brigham Young himself. Unfortunately, it continued to be perpetuated by many members throughout our history, and even ended up in books authored by Joseph Fielding Smith.

In an interview, apostle Jeffery R. Holland said the following: “One clear-cut position is that the folklore must never be perpetuated. … I have to concede to my earlier colleagues. … They, I’m sure, in their own way, were doing the best they knew to give shape to [the policy], to give context for it, to give even history to it. All I can say is however well intended the explanations were, I think almost all of them were inadequate and/or wrong.” (Source: http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/holland.html#1)

For those who are troubled by the fact that explanations given historically are now being repudiated, we have to look at the words of Bruce R. McConkie, who was originally a proponent of those theories. He said, “Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.

“We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don’t matter any more.” (Source: http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=11017)" https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2012/02 ... priesthood
Last edited by RAB on September 5th, 2017, 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Z2100
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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by Z2100 »

RAB wrote: September 5th, 2017, 12:32 pm So, I guess Ted Bundy, Ted Kazinski, Jeffrey Daumer, Charles Manson, Adolf Hitler, etc. were all super righteous in the pre-existence because they were white, but just took a wrong turn when they got here.
No one was foreordained to do evil...

And no, they were not “super righteous.” They were just faithful.

This is exactly why, at the beginning of the thread, I said that I do not wish for anyone to be offended. If you come onto this thread to complain, then you, my friend, are an attention-seeker.

RAB
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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by RAB »

Z2100 wrote: September 5th, 2017, 12:37 pm
RAB wrote: September 5th, 2017, 12:32 pm So, I guess Ted Bundy, Ted Kazinski, Jeffrey Daumer, Charles Manson, Adolf Hitler, etc. were all super righteous in the pre-existence because they were white, but just took a wrong turn when they got here.
No one was foreordained to do evil...

And no, they were not “super righteous.” They were just faithful.

This is exactly why, at the beginning of the thread, I said that I do not wish for anyone to be offended. If you come onto this thread to complain, then you, my friend, are an attention-seeker.
Not an attention seeker. I just know false doctrine being perpetuated when I see it. Everyone that came to this earth was faithful in their first estate. My point in showing the vile human beings who were white is to point out the lack of logic in saying race was determined by faithfulness. There have been far better people of different races than those few I pointed out to show the absurdity of the proposition that race is determined by pre-existent faithfulness. I had companions on my mission who I esteem as some of the most spiritual and valiant people I have ever known...and they were black. I seriously doubt they were not as valiant as Charles Manson, or Adolf Hitler in the pre-existence. It is an absurd proposition meant to justify racism. Surely where we are born in the world has more to do about our own necessary development and our ability to help those around us. And our race, has more to do about who our parents are, and their genetic composition, then our faithfulness in the pre-existence.

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stillwater
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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by stillwater »

Elizabeth wrote: September 1st, 2017, 4:43 pm Stillwater, The Aboriginal peoples of Australia are brown, not black as is the Negro of Africa.
There is no such people as "the Negro of Africa." Black africans are a disparate group made up of hundreds or thousands of races, not a lineage tracing their genealogy back to Cain.

You can find native Africans in all shades of brown, with very few tribes exhibiting actual near-black skin, because black Africans are actually many different lineages. Aboriginal Australians are just as dark-skinned as most of Africa.

Are you suggesting that only those tribes with the darkest skin are "the Negro of Africa"?

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Elizabeth
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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by Elizabeth »

stillwater, As I previously posted, the Aboriginal peoples of Australia are brown, not black, and they are not Negro.

The Negro Race are black, except for those of this linage who are mixed.

And yes I do think the Negro race are descendant from Cain and are the Pre Mortal Spirits who were at that time the least worthy, even though still worthy enough to be born into mortality and still given the opportunity to progress. There were Pre Mortal degrees of worthiness and progression, just as there are now, and will be through the eternities. Our judgement will include both our pre mortal and our present life. This is my opinion and belief, and one to which I am entitled, just as all are entitled to believe as they wish.

Z2100
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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by Z2100 »

RAB wrote: September 5th, 2017, 12:45 pm
Z2100 wrote: September 5th, 2017, 12:37 pm
RAB wrote: September 5th, 2017, 12:32 pm So, I guess Ted Bundy, Ted Kazinski, Jeffrey Daumer, Charles Manson, Adolf Hitler, etc. were all super righteous in the pre-existence because they were white, but just took a wrong turn when they got here.
No one was foreordained to do evil...

And no, they were not “super righteous.” They were just faithful.

This is exactly why, at the beginning of the thread, I said that I do not wish for anyone to be offended. If you come onto this thread to complain, then you, my friend, are an attention-seeker.
Not an attention seeker. I just know false doctrine being perpetuated when I see it. Everyone that came to this earth was faithful in their first estate. My point in showing the vile human beings who were white is to point out the lack of logic in saying race was determined by faithfulness. There have been far better people of different races than those few I pointed out to show the absurdity of the proposition that race is determined by pre-existent faithfulness. I had companions on my mission who I esteem as some of the most spiritual and valiant people I have ever known...and they were black. I seriously doubt they were not as valiant as Charles Manson, or Adolf Hitler in the pre-existence. It is an absurd proposition meant to justify racism. Surely where we are born in the world has more to do about our own necessary development and our ability to help those around us. And our race, has more to do about who our parents are, and their genetic composition, then our faithfulness in the pre-existence.

I can LITERALLY prove what I said about race. It’s in the Doctrines of Salvation.

For example, how would you handle the information when/if the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon is released? There would be some pretty shocking information that a lot of people probably couldn’t handle. That’s why it hasn’t been revealed yet.

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inho
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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by inho »

Z2100 wrote: September 5th, 2017, 8:19 pm I can LITERALLY prove what I said about race. It’s in the Doctrines of Salvation.
I think the following applies also to the Doctrines of Salvation:
The Church’s position is clear—we believe all people are God’s children and are equal in His eyes and in the Church. We do not tolerate racism in any form.

For a time in the Church there was a restriction on the priesthood for male members of African descent. It is not known precisely why, how, or when this restriction began in the Church but what is clear is that it ended decades ago. Some have attempted to explain the reason for this restriction but these attempts should be viewed as speculation and opinion, not doctrine. The Church is not bound by speculation or opinions given with limited understanding.

Church Statement
Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.

We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don’t matter any more.

It doesn’t make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year, 1978.

All Are Alike unto God, Bruce R. McConkie
One clear-cut position is that the folklore must never be perpetuated. ... I have to concede to my earlier colleagues. ... They, I'm sure, in their own way, were doing the best they knew to give shape to [the policy], to give context for it, to give even history to it. All I can say is however well intended the explanations were, I think almost all of them were inadequate and/or wrong. ...

It probably would have been advantageous to say nothing, to say we just don't know, and, [as] with many religious matters, whatever was being done was done on the basis of faith at that time. But some explanations were given and had been given for a lot of years. ... At the very least, there should be no effort to perpetuate those efforts to explain why that doctrine existed. I think, to the extent that I know anything about it, as one of the newer and younger ones to come along, ... we simply do not know why that practice, that policy, that doctrine was in place.

What is the folklore, quite specifically?

Well, some of the folklore that you must be referring to are suggestions that there were decisions made in the pre-mortal councils where someone had not been as decisive in their loyalty to a Gospel plan or the procedures on earth or what was to unfold in mortality, and that therefore that opportunity and mortality was compromised. I really don't know a lot of the details of those, because fortunately I've been able to live in the period where we're not expressing or teaching them, but I think that's the one I grew up hearing the most, was that it was something to do with the pre-mortal councils. ... But I think that's the part that must never be taught until anybody knows a lot more than I know. ... We just don't know, in the historical context of the time, why it was practiced. ... That's my principal [concern], is that we don't perpetuate explanations about things we don't know. ...

We don't pretend that something wasn't taught or practice wasn't pursued for whatever reason. But I think we can be unequivocal and we can be declarative in our current literature, in books that we reproduce, in teachings that go forward, whatever, that from this time forward, from 1978 forward, we can make sure that nothing of that is declared. That may be where we still need to make sure that we're absolutely dutiful, that we put [a] careful eye of scrutiny on anything from earlier writings and teachings, just [to] make sure that that's not perpetuated in the present.

Elder Holland interviewed by PBS in The Mormons

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Robin Hood
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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by Robin Hood »

Really, there are only three races.
1. Those descended from Shem
2. Those descended from Japhath
3. Those descended from Ham

Obviously, there has been some mixing over the centuries.

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Elizabeth
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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by Elizabeth »

18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.

25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

26 And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/gen/9?lang=eng

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Red
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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by Red »

Z2100 wrote: August 31st, 2017, 8:03 pm

If you have read all volumes of “Doctrines of Salvation” with an open mind and heart, you should understand some things:

1. How much faith we had in the pre-existence determines/determines how our Earth life will be like

2. How faithful we were in the pre-existence got us placed in the races we were placed in.

We are not taught this anymore in church, but it was commonly taught in the early days of the Church.

The seed of Cain and the Lamanites have one thing in common: They both faced death and destruction from White Gentiles at some time in Telestial World Histroy.


Read https://www.lds.org/ensign/1972/09/what ... e?lang=eng for reference
Do you believe 1 and 2? In regard to 1, do you think that weighs down our agency to a degree? Or that we are born in a judgment already? A judgment of which we are unaware. And how would our Earth life be? Does this imply that if we were more faithful that our life would be better? or what does it even imply? I have never read Doctrines of Salvation.

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Re: A list of Different Races on Earth & The Doctrines of Salvation

Post by David13 »

Robin Hood wrote: September 6th, 2017, 6:17 am Really, there are only three races.
1. Those descended from Shem
2. Those descended from Japhath
3. Those descended from Ham

Obviously, there has been some mixing over the centuries.
I always say the truth is there is only one race. The human race. Either you are human or you are not.

So I consider all these Mexican LaRaza clowns and BLMatters dodos as pure racists. When there is no reason for it.
dc

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