Rowe - Energy Sessions

[DesertWonderer]

You seriously think that the scriptural references to wolves in sheep's clothing are about the leadership of the church? That's deeply sad to hear. That's pretty much just plain apostate, which explains quite a bit here.

There are means of naturalistic healing, and then there is priestcraft. Knowing the difference is something that everyone with the Gift of Discernment should see right away.

Not sure if you were referring to me but I'm saying the false prophets and the EH's are some of the wolves in sheep's clothing to which these versus refer. Not sure where you got the idea I was referring to the leadership of the church. That is the remnant crowd's tune.

[Summerwind]

You seriously think that the scriptural references to wolves in sheep's clothing are about the leadership of the church? That's deeply sad to hear. That's pretty much just plain apostate, which explains quite a bit here.

There are means of naturalistic healing, and then there is priestcraft. Knowing the difference is something that everyone with the Gift of Discernment should see right away.

Not sure if you were referring to me but I'm saying the false prophets and the EH's are some of the wolves in sheep's clothing to which these versus refer. Not sure where you got the idea I was referring to the leadership of the church. That is the remnant crowd's tune.

No, I meant that in reference to Juliet who seems to think that this concept comes from the D&C and it doesn't... and that it applies to the prophets and apostles of the church in particular. THAT I find apostasy and disturbing to consider. No wonder she's defending EH and JR.

[Finrock]

You seriously think that the scriptural references to wolves in sheep's clothing are about the leadership of the church? That's deeply sad to hear. That's pretty much just plain apostate, which explains quite a bit here.

There are means of naturalistic healing, and then there is priestcraft. Knowing the difference is something that everyone with the Gift of Discernment should see right away.

Not sure if you were referring to me but I'm saying the false prophets and the EH's are some of the wolves in sheep's clothing to which these versus refer. Not sure where you got the idea I was referring to the leadership of the church. That is the remnant crowd's tune.

No, I meant that in reference to Juliet who seems to think that this concept comes from the D&C and it doesn't... and that it applies to the prophets and apostles of the church in particular. THAT I find apostasy and disturbing to consider. No wonder she's defending EH and JR.

You think it is impossible for a leader in the Church to be a wolf in sheep's clothing?

-Finrock

[Summerwind]

I think that the reference in the book of mormon is not about the Lord's prophets, but others. How many times did the Lord punish people for rejecting his prophets?

[Finrock]

I think that the reference in the book of mormon is not about the Lord's prophets, but others. How many times did the Lord punish people for rejecting his prophets?

The answer to your question depends on what you mean by "punish".

I think that scripture can apply to any mortal. History has borne this out.

Prophets are just people. In any case its certainly not apostate to consider that prophets and apostles may be wolves in sheep clothing. Plus, you have to take in to account circumstances of people before you wave the apostate stick.

-Finrock

[I'LLMAKEYAFAMOUS]

She's now doing podcasts. And to entice the gullible she's going to share experiences she's had that she didn't mention in her books.

Podcasts of The Julie Rowe Show coming soon!
by Julie Rowe
Just wanted to let you know we have been working on developing audio podcasts and the first one will be released this coming Friday, May 26, 2017.

The first podcast on The Julie Rowe Show is titled, "The Wasatch Wakeup"

The second one will be released a week from Friday and in it we discuss signs in the heavens, Revelations 12, the planets aligning and the Eclipse in August, as well as some other things.

The third podcast is "Spiritual Gifts." In that I share stories from my childhood and discuss spiritual gifts and experiences I have had that are not in the first three books.

The fourth podcast discusses Demons, Devils, Unclean or Disembodied Spirits, Guardian Angels, and Ministering Angels.

We are getting ready to record our fifth podcast which will include the topic of The Gathering, GTRF, the Mission, and related topics.

I hope you will tune in on Friday, or whenever you can, and that you will share these with your friends and family.

The podcasts will be on both You Tube and Podomatic.

Thank you in advance for listening. I hope these podcasts will be informative, uplifting, inspiring, motivational and educational.

We will post the links to the podcasts on Friday.

Thanks!

-- Julie

[Summerwind]

The attached scriptures to the wolves in sheep's clothing reference in 3rd Nephi describe that by their fruits ye shall know them. What fruits of the current general authorities are considered evil fruits? They have the authority to lead the Lord's church and I don't see anything evil that they have done.

I do see a lot of whacky evil being done by energy healers especially those taking advantage of people and charging money. Some people have experienced these "miraculous healings" only to end up in far worse shape than they started out with months later... and one woman I have spoken to says that this practice of energy healing in Christ's name opened her up to a lot of horrible dark attacks. This is definitely not something one should be messing with. What is the priesthood and the will of God lacking that people turn to something else instead? I'll tell you what... nothing! But those who do are lacking in faith.

[Summerwind]

She's now doing podcasts. And to entice the gullible she's going to share experiences she's had that she didn't mention in her books.

Podcasts of The Julie Rowe Show coming soon!
by Julie Rowe
Just wanted to let you know we have been working on developing audio podcasts and the first one will be released this coming Friday, May 26, 2017.

The first podcast on The Julie Rowe Show is titled, "The Wasatch Wakeup"

The second one will be released a week from Friday and in it we discuss signs in the heavens, Revelations 12, the planets aligning and the Eclipse in August, as well as some other things.

The third podcast is "Spiritual Gifts." In that I share stories from my childhood and discuss spiritual gifts and experiences I have had that are not in the first three books.

The fourth podcast discusses Demons, Devils, Unclean or Disembodied Spirits, Guardian Angels, and Ministering Angels.

We are getting ready to record our fifth podcast which will include the topic of The Gathering, GTRF, the Mission, and related topics.

I hope you will tune in on Friday, or whenever you can, and that you will share these with your friends and family.

The podcasts will be on both You Tube and Podomatic.

Thank you in advance for listening. I hope these podcasts will be informative, uplifting, inspiring, motivational and educational.

We will post the links to the podcasts on Friday.

Thanks!

-- Julie

How utterly disturbing... she can't go very long before she's back into a cycle of needing attention and the spotlight. She goes in cycles like this and this is about the third or fourth one from the start that I have been tracking. She goes all silent and freaked out that people are stalking her to harm her, and then she comes out and usually does more "shows" more appearances and interviews, and uses her site again, begs for more money in one way or another... and eventually puts out another book when the other interests began to wane.

[Finrock]

The attached scriptures to the wolves in sheep's clothing reference in 3rd Nephi describe that by their fruits ye shall know them. What fruits of the current general authorities are considered evil fruits? They have the authority to lead the Lord's church and I don't see anything evil that they have done.

I do see a lot of whacky evil being done by energy healers especially those taking advantage of people and charging money. Some people have experienced these "miraculous healings" only to end up in far worse shape than they started out with months later... and one woman I have spoken to says that this practice of energy healing in Christ's name opened her up to a lot of horrible dark attacks. This is definitely not something one should be messing with. What is the priesthood and the will of God lacking that people turn to something else instead? I'll tell you what... nothing! But those who do are lacking in faith.

The idea, however is that apostles can and have been wolves in sheep clothing. Because you see no evidence of that currently doesn't negate history and the possibility. That scripture can apply to any mortal. Of course when it comes to the wolves, we think they are sheep until we find out they are not.

The bigger issue, though, is you waving the apostate stick at a person because they suggest that apostles and prophets can be wolves in sheep clothing as if that is an indicator for apostasy, not to mention you are not taking in to account this person's circumstances.

Finally, I don't think you are in a position to judge the status of another person's faith. I don't think you have enough data to make a fair assessment and conclusion one way or the other. Assumptions, biases, and such don't generally produce good, reliable results.

-Finrock

[DesertWonderer]

You seriously think that the scriptural references to wolves in sheep's clothing are about the leadership of the church? That's deeply sad to hear. That's pretty much just plain apostate, which explains quite a bit here.

There are means of naturalistic healing, and then there is priestcraft. Knowing the difference is something that everyone with the Gift of Discernment should see right away.

Not sure if you were referring to me but I'm saying the false prophets and the EH's are some of the wolves in sheep's clothing to which these versus refer. Not sure where you got the idea I was referring to the leadership of the church. That is the remnant crowd's tune.

No, I meant that in reference to Juliet who seems to think that this concept comes from the D&C and it doesn't... and that it applies to the prophets and apostles of the church in particular. THAT I find apostasy and disturbing to consider. No wonder she's defending EH and JR.

You think it is impossible for a leader in the Church to be a wolf in sheep's clothing?

-Finrock

Judas was. Anything is possible.

[Spider]

One great evil is, that men are ignorant of the nature of spirits; their power, laws, government, intelligence, etc., and imagine that when there is anything like power, revelation, or vision manifested, that it must be of God. . . .(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Four 1839-42, p.203-214)

What a bizarre business - charging people money in the name of Christ. It's creepy. I think the church made themselves very clear on the matter.

[JohnnyL]

The attached scriptures to the wolves in sheep's clothing reference in 3rd Nephi describe that by their fruits ye shall know them. What fruits of the current general authorities are considered evil fruits? They have the authority to lead the Lord's church and I don't see anything evil that they have done.

I do see a lot of whacky evil being done by energy healers especially those taking advantage of people and charging money. Some people have experienced these "miraculous healings" only to end up in far worse shape than they started out with months later... and one woman I have spoken to says that this practice of energy healing in Christ's name opened her up to a lot of horrible dark attacks. This is definitely not something one should be messing with. What is the priesthood and the will of God lacking that people turn to something else instead? I'll tell you what... nothing! But those who do are lacking in faith.

Summerwind, curious--whom did you change your name from? Or just a sock puppet?

[Gage]

Christ did some work but Christianity will do a much bigger one. This is what the scripture means. How do you twist that scripture like that?

I could ask you the same thing! :))

-Finrock

What is wrong with the way I "translated" the scripture? "the greater works", they were all the Christians that the Apostles converted after "Christ went to the father". Christ foretold the rise of Christianity. Were millions not converted? Was this not a "greater work done"? I could go on I have all day. Again I ask what is wrong with the way I translated? When I asked her how did she twist the scripture like that, I was meaning "how could you ever think that a "man" alone, by himself could do a greater work than Christ did. I couldnt understand how anyone could think that there would be individuals on the earth that would receive more power and do greater works than Christ did.

[DesertWonderer]

One great evil is, that men are ignorant of the nature of spirits; their power, laws, government, intelligence, etc., and imagine that when there is anything like power, revelation, or vision manifested, that it must be of God. . . .(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Four 1839-42, p.203-214)

What a bizarre business - charging people money in the name of Christ. It's creepy. I think the church made themselves very clear on the matter.

I noted in an earlier post that the AMA, doctors, etc...are not evil. However the vid posted above is a good example of what is evil.

[Onsdag]

Christ did some work but Christianity will do a much bigger one. This is what the scripture means. How do you twist that scripture like that?

I could ask you the same thing! :))

-Finrock

What is wrong with the way I "translated" the scripture? "the greater works", they were all the Christians that the Apostles converted after "Christ went to the father". Christ foretold the rise of Christianity. Were millions not converted? Was this not a "greater work done"? I could go on I have all day. Again I ask what is wrong with the way I translated? When I asked her how did she twist the scripture like that, I was meaning "how could you ever think that a "man" alone, by himself could do a greater work than Christ did. I couldnt understand how anyone could think that there would be individuals on the earth that would receive more power and do greater works than Christ did.

I don't see why not. You do believe the scriptures, yes?

3 Nephi 26:14,16 And it came to pass that he did teach and minister unto the children of the multitude of whom hath been spoken, and he did loose their tongues, and they did speak unto their fathers great and marvelous things, even greater than he had revealed unto the people; and he loosed their tongues that they could utter. ... Behold, it came to pass on the morrow that the multitude gathered themselves together, and they both saw and heard these children; yea, even babes did open their mouths and utter marvelous things; and the things which they did utter were forbidden that there should not any man write them.

Jesus walked on water... but Moses commanded the waters to part and caused a whole nation to walk on dry land.

Jesus raised people from the dead... and so have others, including Nephi.

Jesus was imprisoned... while Alma and Amulek broke their bonds and caused the prison to break asunder, killing their captors.

Jesus caused a tree to wither and die so that no man might eat of its fruits... while Nephi caused a multi-year famine so that whole nations might not have food until they repented. (As an aside, this scripture of Jesus cursing the tree is another place where Jesus himself confirms that others can and will do greater miracles than he has - see Matt. 21:19-22)

Jesus died a horrible death... whereas John, as well as three Nephites, were given power over death so that they would not taste of it.

In his mortal ministry Jesus struggled to convert the people to righteousness... Enoch, on the other hand, converted a great many people so that an entire city was caught up into heaven because of their righteousness. And King Benjamin converted all of his people.

I could go on with the miracles performed by Enoch, Moses, Nephi, Joseph Smith, and other prophets ancient and modern, all of whom performed miracles that equaled or surpassed those of Jesus Christ in his mortal ministry (excepting the atonement of course, which is the greatest miracle). The point being that there is not only scriptural record of greater miracles being performed, but Christ himself has promised this power to those who exercise great faith. I take him at his word and believe he is speaking literally, and not just figuratively or symbolically. His words are meant for us individually, and not just collectively as a people or church.

[Finrock]

Christ did some work but Christianity will do a much bigger one. This is what the scripture means. How do you twist that scripture like that?

I could ask you the same thing! :))

-Finrock

What is wrong with the way I "translated" the scripture? "the greater works", they were all the Christians that the Apostles converted after "Christ went to the father". Christ foretold the rise of Christianity. Were millions not converted? Was this not a "greater work done"? I could go on I have all day. Again I ask what is wrong with the way I translated? When I asked her how did she twist the scripture like that, I was meaning "how could you ever think that a "man" alone, by himself could do a greater work than Christ did. I couldnt understand how anyone could think that there would be individuals on the earth that would receive more power and do greater works than Christ did.

Here is a more literal translation of that verse of scripture:

Truly, truly, I say to you, the one believing in Me, the works that I do, also he will do. And he will do greater than these, because I am going to the Father.

Notice in this translation it says, "the one". It is speaking plainly and most simply about an individual, a person, a man or a woman. In any translation it uses the pronoun "he" (which also implies "she") but the important thing here is that it is most simply and most plainly speaking about any individual.

If you go to Biblehub.com and look at various translations for this verse you will see that many translations say "the person", "the one", etc. Clearly indicating that it is talking about any individual that meets the criteria of believing in Jesus Christ. It is a stretch in logic and reason to take the pronoun "he" and "the one" and to translate it to "All of Christianity" or to some organization or group of people collectively. Interpreting that scripture to mean "Christianity" or some group of people in my view is the real "twisting" of words, meaning, reason, and logic.

So, any man or woman who believes in Jesus Christ will do the works that Jesus Christ has done. Further, this man or woman who does the works of Christ will do greater works than you've seen Christ do here at this time is essentially what that scripture is saying.

If you want an alternate perspective that is more true to the plain and simple meaning of that scripture than what you've provided, look to what Summerwind posted from the Lectures on Faith. You have to consider the eternal perspective of things. Its best I think to just quote what Summerwind quoted rather than me try to explain it in my own words:

It may sound startling to some to say that those who believe in Jesus Christ will do greater works than He did. However, the Lectures on Faith suggests that this statement is better understood in connection with the Savior’s teachings in John 17:20–24: “All these sayings put together give as clear an account of the state of the glorified saints as language could give—the works that Jesus had done they were to do, and greater works than those which he had done among them should they do, and that because he went to the Father. He does not say that they should do these works in time; but they should do greater works, because he went to the Father. … The greater works which those that believed on his name were to do were to be done in eternity, where he was going and where they should behold his glory” (Lectures on Faith, 77–78).

Also, we don't need to suppose that in context Jesus is including the atonement. That work had not yet been done when He spoke those words, so the only things that anyone had seen Him do were other works. So, I think in context when Jesus references the works that He has done, it means the miraculous healings, the casting out of devils, changing water in to wine, multiplying the loaves of bread, etc. Those who believe in Jesus Christ will be able to do those same types of things such as healings and in the eternities, they will be doing even greater works than just healings, casting out devils, changing water in to wine, multiplying the loaves of bread, etc. because Christ goes to the Father, giving us access to becoming heirs and joint-heirs with Christ, etc.

-Finrock

[AI2.0]

She's now doing podcasts. And to entice the gullible she's going to share experiences she's had that she didn't mention in her books.

Podcasts of The Julie Rowe Show coming soon!
by Julie Rowe
Just wanted to let you know we have been working on developing audio podcasts and the first one will be released this coming Friday, May 26, 2017.

The first podcast on The Julie Rowe Show is titled, "The Wasatch Wakeup"

The second one will be released a week from Friday and in it we discuss signs in the heavens, Revelations 12, the planets aligning and the Eclipse in August, as well as some other things.

The third podcast is "Spiritual Gifts." In that I share stories from my childhood and discuss spiritual gifts and experiences I have had that are not in the first three books.

The fourth podcast discusses Demons, Devils, Unclean or Disembodied Spirits, Guardian Angels, and Ministering Angels.

We are getting ready to record our fifth podcast which will include the topic of The Gathering, GTRF, the Mission, and related topics.

I hope you will tune in on Friday, or whenever you can, and that you will share these with your friends and family.

The podcasts will be on both You Tube and Podomatic.

Thank you in advance for listening. I hope these podcasts will be informative, uplifting, inspiring, motivational and educational.

We will post the links to the podcasts on Friday.

Thanks!

-- Julie

I wonder if she'll charge a subscription fee.

[AI2.0]

I think that the reference in the book of mormon is not about the Lord's prophets, but others. How many times did the Lord punish people for rejecting his prophets?

The answer to your question depends on what you mean by "punish".

I think that scripture can apply to any mortal. History has borne this out.

Prophets are just people. In any case its certainly not apostate to consider that prophets and apostles may be wolves in sheep clothing. Plus, you have to take in to account circumstances of people before you wave the apostate stick.

-Finrock

Read about the role of Prophets in the scriptures. They aren't 'just people'. Pres. Monson and the members of the quorum of 12 are 'prophets, seers and revelators' who are set at the head of the church to lead and guide us. Look at Jesus' calling of the 12 disciples in 3rd Nephi and the role they were given in teaching, ministering to and serving the people. Look at Jesus calling the 12 apostles in the New Testament and the role they played after his ascension--they were his servants to do his will in spreading the gospel, teaching the people, administering ordinances etc.. Look at the Lord's own words in the Doctrine and Covenants about the role of Prophets as well as nature of the Prophets of the Old Testament. If you do this, there's no way you can think they are 'just people'.

'CAN' a prophet be a wolf in sheep's clothing? It's possible, but if you trust Heavenly Father then you won't assume Pres. Monson or any of our Prophets serving today are going to lead you into dark paths. As I said to Juliet, if you don't trust our living Prophets, then you don't have a testimony of their role and their mission. That's a problem for you and makes you vulnerable to being deceived. The Lord gave a warning against false prophets in the last days, but that was about those who were not properly ordained and set at the head of the church to lead it. The Lord didn't expect you to be second guessing and questioning HIS established divinely called authorities, worrying they might be deceiving you.

This thread is about a woman who has set herself up as a prophet(while she never calls herself one, she puts herself forward as one) and she's also a practitioner of what the news report called 'christ centered' energy healing and she charges money for her service--exactly what was warned about in the church statement. If you want to ignore their warning, you can, you have that choice, but don't say you weren't warned. And those who claim to have a testimony that we are lead by prophets of God, ought to be wise and heed the warning, not look for excuses and rationalizations so they can continue to do what they want.

[Finrock]

I think that the reference in the book of mormon is not about the Lord's prophets, but others. How many times did the Lord punish people for rejecting his prophets?

The answer to your question depends on what you mean by "punish".

I think that scripture can apply to any mortal. History has borne this out.

Prophets are just people. In any case its certainly not apostate to consider that prophets and apostles may be wolves in sheep clothing. Plus, you have to take in to account circumstances of people before you wave the apostate stick.

-Finrock

Read about the role of Prophets in the scriptures. They aren't 'just people'. Pres. Monson and the members of the quorum of 12 are 'prophets, seers and revelators' who are set at the head of the church to lead and guide us. Look at Jesus' calling of the 12 disciples in 3rd Nephi and the role they were given in teaching, ministering to and serving the people. Look at Jesus calling the 12 apostles in the New Testament and the role they played after his ascension--they were his servants to do his will in spreading the gospel, teaching the people, administering ordinances etc.. Look at the Lord's own words in the Doctrine and Covenants about the role of Prophets as well as nature of the Prophets of the Old Testament. If you do this, there's no way you can think they are 'just people'.

'CAN' a prophet be a wolf in sheep's clothing? It's possible, but if you trust Heavenly Father then you won't assume Pres. Monson or any of our Prophets serving today are going to lead you into dark paths. As I said to Juliet, if you don't trust our living Prophets, then you don't have a testimony of their role and their mission. That's a problem for you and makes you vulnerable to being deceived. The Lord gave a warning against false prophets in the last days, but that was about those who were not properly ordained and set at the head of the church to lead it. The Lord didn't expect you to be second guessing and questioning HIS established divinely called authorities, worrying they might be deceiving you.

This thread is about a woman who has set herself up as a prophet(while she never calls herself one, she puts herself forward as one) and she's also a practitioner of what the news report called 'christ centered' energy healing and she charges money for her service--exactly what was warned about in the church statement. If you want to ignore their warning, you can, you have that choice, but don't say you weren't warned. And those who claim to have a testimony that we are lead by prophets of God, ought to be wise and heed the warning, not look for excuses and rationalizations so they can continue to do what they want.

They are, when it is all said in done, just people, like the rest of us. They have a particular calling and a particular position in the Church, but that doesn't make them anything more than mortal men with a different responsibility. No man or woman is greater, better, or more important than another man or woman in the grand scheme of things. We are neither inferior nor superior to the apostles. What you say from the scriptures can apply and in fact does apply to any servant of God who is acting within the capacity in which he or she has been placed.

Not to mention, many a "prophet" and an "apostle" has fallen. They are not exempt from the weaknesses and frailties of men. They stumble and fall. They say things that are wrong. They sometimes lead people astray and later generations have to denounce their words. "Apostles" sometimes commit adultery and need to be excommunicated. Sometimes, they apostatize. Sometimes they were traitors from the beginning.

We shouldn't place the apostles on a pedestal. They have their particular duty and calling in life, but, they are, when it is all said and done, just as dependent on Jesus Christ as any one of us. They are just people, mortal men, working out their salvation the best as they can just like the rest of us.

These are factual statements. Doesn't indicate a lack of faith, or a lack of trust, or apostasy, or doesn't make someone a bad Mormon or a bad person and if you believe differently than this, it doesn't make you superior and a better Mormon and neither does it make you an inferior or worse Mormon. We all have our faults and weaknesses.

-Finrock

[Mark]

I think that the reference in the book of mormon is not about the Lord's prophets, but others. How many times did the Lord punish people for rejecting his prophets?

The answer to your question depends on what you mean by "punish".

I think that scripture can apply to any mortal. History has borne this out.

Prophets are just people. In any case its certainly not apostate to consider that prophets and apostles may be wolves in sheep clothing. Plus, you have to take in to account circumstances of people before you wave the apostate stick.

-Finrock

Read about the role of Prophets in the scriptures. They aren't 'just people'. Pres. Monson and the members of the quorum of 12 are 'prophets, seers and revelators' who are set at the head of the church to lead and guide us. Look at Jesus' calling of the 12 disciples in 3rd Nephi and the role they were given in teaching, ministering to and serving the people. Look at Jesus calling the 12 apostles in the New Testament and the role they played after his ascension--they were his servants to do his will in spreading the gospel, teaching the people, administering ordinances etc.. Look at the Lord's own words in the Doctrine and Covenants about the role of Prophets as well as nature of the Prophets of the Old Testament. If you do this, there's no way you can think they are 'just people'.

'CAN' a prophet be a wolf in sheep's clothing? It's possible, but if you trust Heavenly Father then you won't assume Pres. Monson or any of our Prophets serving today are going to lead you into dark paths. As I said to Juliet, if you don't trust our living Prophets, then you don't have a testimony of their role and their mission. That's a problem for you and makes you vulnerable to being deceived. The Lord gave a warning against false prophets in the last days, but that was about those who were not properly ordained and set at the head of the church to lead it. The Lord didn't expect you to be second guessing and questioning HIS established divinely called authorities, worrying they might be deceiving you.

This thread is about a woman who has set herself up as a prophet(while she never calls herself one, she puts herself forward as one) and she's also a practitioner of what the news report called 'christ centered' energy healing and she charges money for her service--exactly what was warned about in the church statement. If you want to ignore their warning, you can, you have that choice, but don't say you weren't warned. And those who claim to have a testimony that we are lead by prophets of God, ought to be wise and heed the warning, not look for excuses and rationalizations so they can continue to do what they want.

They are, when it is all said in done, just people, like the rest of us. They have a particular calling and a particular position in the Church, but that doesn't make them anything more than mortal men with a different responsibility. No man or woman is greater, better, or more important than another man or woman in the grand scheme of things. We are neither inferior nor superior to the apostles. What you say from the scriptures can apply and in fact does apply to any servant of God who is acting within the capacity in which he or she has been placed.

Not to mention, many a "prophet" and an "apostle" has fallen. They are not exempt from the weaknesses and frailties of men. They stumble and fall. They say things that are wrong. They sometimes lead people astray and later generations have to denounce their words. "Apostles" sometimes commit adultery and need to be excommunicated. Sometimes, they apostatize. Sometimes they were traitors from the beginning.

We shouldn't place the apostles on a pedestal. They have their particular duty and calling in life, but, they are, when it is all said and done, just as dependent on Jesus Christ as any one of us. They are just people, mortal men, working out their salvation the best as they can just like the rest of us.

These are factual statements. Doesn't indicate a lack of faith, or a lack of trust, or apostasy, or doesn't make someone a bad Mormon or a bad person and if you believe differently than this, it doesn't make you superior and a better Mormon and neither does it make you an inferior or worse Mormon. We all have our faults and weaknesses.

-Finrock

This from Elder Packer:

"Historians seem to take great pride in publishing something new, particularly if it illustrates a weakness or mistake of a prominent historical figure. For some reason, historians and novelists seem to savor such things. If it related to a living person, it would come under the heading of gossip. History can be as misleading as gossip and much more difficult—often impossible—to verify.

The writer or the teacher who has an exaggerated loyalty to the theory that everything must be told is laying a foundation for his own judgment. He should not complain if one day he himself receives as he has given. Perhaps that is what is contemplated in having one’s sins preached from the housetops.

Some time ago a historian gave a lecture to an audience of college students on one of the past Presidents of the Church. It seemed to be his purpose to show that that President was a man subject to the foibles of men. He introduced many so-called facts that put that President in a very unfavorable light, particularly when they were taken out of the context of the historical period in which he lived.

Someone who was not theretofore acquainted with this historical figure (particularly someone not mature) must have come away very negatively affected. Those who were unsteady in their convictions surely must have had their faith weakened or destroyed.

I began teaching seminary under Abel S. Rich, principal. He was the second seminary teacher employed by the Church and a man of maturity, wisdom, and experience. Among the lessons I learned from him was this: when I want to know about a man, I seek out those who know him best. I do not go to his enemies but to his friends. He would not confide in his enemy. You could not know the innermost thoughts of his heart by consulting those who would injure him.

We are teachers and should know the importance of the principle of prerequisites. It is easily illustrated with the subject of chemistry. No responsible chemist would advise, and no reputable school would permit, a beginning student to register for advanced chemistry without a knowledge of the fundamental principles of chemistry. The advanced course would be a destructive mistake, even for a very brilliant beginning student. Even that brilliant student would need some knowledge of the elements, of atoms and molecules, of electrons, of valence, of compounds and properties. To let a student proceed without the knowledge of fundamentals would surely destroy his interest in, and his future with, the field of chemistry.

The same point may be made with reference to so-called sex education. There are many things that are factual, even elevating, about this subject. There are aspects of this subject that are so perverted and ugly it does little good to talk of them at all. They cannot be safely taught to little children or to those who are not eligible by virtue of age or maturity or authorizing ordinance to understand them.

Teaching some things that are true, prematurely or at the wrong time, can invite sorrow and heartbreak instead of the joy intended to accompany learning.

What is true with these two subjects is, if anything, doubly true in the field of religion. The scriptures teach emphatically that we must give milk before meat. The Lord made it very clear that some things are to be taught selectively, and some things are to be given only to those who are worthy.

It matters very much not only what we are told but when we are told it. Be careful that you build faith rather than destroy it.

President William E. Berrett has told us how grateful he is that a testimony that the past leaders of the Church were prophets of God was firmly fixed in his mind before he was exposed to some of the so-called facts that historians have put in their published writings.

This principle of prerequisites is so fundamental to all education that I have never been quite able to understand why historians are so willing to ignore it. And, if those outside the Church have little to guide them but the tenets of their profession, those inside the Church should know better.

Some historians write and speak as though the only ones to read or listen are mature, experienced historians. They write and speak to a very narrow audience. Unfortunately, many of the things they tell one another are not uplifting, go far beyond the audience they may have intended, and destroy faith.

What that historian did with the reputation of the President of the Church was not worth doing. He seemed determined to convince everyone that the prophet was a man. We knew that already. All of the prophets and all of the Apostles have been men. It would have been much more worthwhile for him to have convinced us that the man was a prophet, a fact quite as true as the fact that he was a man.

He has taken something away from the memory of a prophet. He has destroyed faith. I remind you of the truth Shakespeare taught, ironically spoken by Iago: “Who steals my purse steals trash; ‘tis something, nothing; / ‘Twas mine, ‘tis his, and has been slave to thousands— / But he that filches from me my good name / Robs me of that which not enriches him / And makes me poor indeed” (Othello, act 3, sc. 3, lines 157–61).

The sad thing is that he may have, in years past, taken great interest in those who led the Church and desired to draw close to them. But instead of following that long, steep, discouraging, and occasionally dangerous path to spiritual achievement, instead of going up to where they were, he devised a way of collecting mistakes and weaknesses and limitations to compare with his own. In that sense he has attempted to bring a historical figure down to his level and in that way feel close to him and perhaps justify his own weaknesses.

I agree with President Stephen L Richards, who stated:

“If a man of history has secured over the years a high place in the esteem of his countrymen and fellow men and has become imbedded in their affections, it has seemingly become a pleasing pastime for researchers and scholars to delve into the past of such a man, discover, if may be, some of his weaknesses, and then write a book exposing hitherto unpublished alleged factual findings, all of which tends to rob the historic character of the idealistic esteem and veneration in which he may have been held through the years.

“This ‘debunking,’ we are told, is in the interest of realism, that the facts should be known. If an historic character has made a great contribution to country and society, and if his name and his deeds have been used over the generations to foster high ideals of character and service, what good is to be accomplished by digging out of the past and exploiting weaknesses, which perhaps a generous contemporary public forgave and subdued?” (Where Is Wisdom? [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1955], p. 155.)

That historian or scholar who delights in pointing out the weakness and frailties of present or past leaders destroys faith. A destroyer of faith—particularly one within the Church, and more particularly one who is employed specifically to build faith—places himself in great spiritual jeopardy. He is serving the wrong master, and unless he repents, he will not be among the faithful in the eternities.

One who chooses to follow the tenets of his profession, regardless of how they may injure the Church or destroy the faith of those not ready for “advanced history,” is himself in spiritual jeopardy. If that one is a member of the Church, he has broken his covenants and will be accountable. After all of the tomorrows of mortality have been finished, he will not stand where he might have stood.

I recall a conversation with President Henry D. Moyle. We were driving back from Arizona and were talking about a man who destroyed the faith of young people from the vantage point of a teaching position. Someone asked President Moyle why this man was still a member of the Church when he did things like that. “He is not a member of the Church,” President Moyle answered firmly. Another replied that he had not heard of his excommunication. “He has excommunicated himself,” President Moyle responded. “He has cut himself off from the Spirit of God. Whether or not we get around to holding a court doesn’t matter that much; he has cut himself off from the Spirit of the Lord.”

[Gage]

Ok I am not talking about Prophets. I am talking about Suzie Smith with 2 kids on Elm Street that is selling her Energy Healing and the Holy Spirit. Your every day Joe Blow that prey on the gullible. That is who I am meaning, that is who Juliet was meaning. Juliet was talking as if Julie Rowe and others were called of God. They are not.

[Gage]

Now you are twisting what I am saying. I said "doing the work" "continuing the work" Obviously people are doing the work. The OP made it out like there were individuals that have greater power than Christ. Please take me to this individual that is performing miracles and raising the dead.

[Finrock]

The answer to your question depends on what you mean by "punish".

I think that scripture can apply to any mortal. History has borne this out.

Prophets are just people. In any case its certainly not apostate to consider that prophets and apostles may be wolves in sheep clothing. Plus, you have to take in to account circumstances of people before you wave the apostate stick.

-Finrock

Read about the role of Prophets in the scriptures. They aren't 'just people'. Pres. Monson and the members of the quorum of 12 are 'prophets, seers and revelators' who are set at the head of the church to lead and guide us. Look at Jesus' calling of the 12 disciples in 3rd Nephi and the role they were given in teaching, ministering to and serving the people. Look at Jesus calling the 12 apostles in the New Testament and the role they played after his ascension--they were his servants to do his will in spreading the gospel, teaching the people, administering ordinances etc.. Look at the Lord's own words in the Doctrine and Covenants about the role of Prophets as well as nature of the Prophets of the Old Testament. If you do this, there's no way you can think they are 'just people'.

'CAN' a prophet be a wolf in sheep's clothing? It's possible, but if you trust Heavenly Father then you won't assume Pres. Monson or any of our Prophets serving today are going to lead you into dark paths. As I said to Juliet, if you don't trust our living Prophets, then you don't have a testimony of their role and their mission. That's a problem for you and makes you vulnerable to being deceived. The Lord gave a warning against false prophets in the last days, but that was about those who were not properly ordained and set at the head of the church to lead it. The Lord didn't expect you to be second guessing and questioning HIS established divinely called authorities, worrying they might be deceiving you.

This thread is about a woman who has set herself up as a prophet(while she never calls herself one, she puts herself forward as one) and she's also a practitioner of what the news report called 'christ centered' energy healing and she charges money for her service--exactly what was warned about in the church statement. If you want to ignore their warning, you can, you have that choice, but don't say you weren't warned. And those who claim to have a testimony that we are lead by prophets of God, ought to be wise and heed the warning, not look for excuses and rationalizations so they can continue to do what they want.

They are, when it is all said in done, just people, like the rest of us. They have a particular calling and a particular position in the Church, but that doesn't make them anything more than mortal men with a different responsibility. No man or woman is greater, better, or more important than another man or woman in the grand scheme of things. We are neither inferior nor superior to the apostles. What you say from the scriptures can apply and in fact does apply to any servant of God who is acting within the capacity in which he or she has been placed.

Not to mention, many a "prophet" and an "apostle" has fallen. They are not exempt from the weaknesses and frailties of men. They stumble and fall. They say things that are wrong. They sometimes lead people astray and later generations have to denounce their words. "Apostles" sometimes commit adultery and need to be excommunicated. Sometimes, they apostatize. Sometimes they were traitors from the beginning.

We shouldn't place the apostles on a pedestal. They have their particular duty and calling in life, but, they are, when it is all said and done, just as dependent on Jesus Christ as any one of us. They are just people, mortal men, working out their salvation the best as they can just like the rest of us.

These are factual statements. Doesn't indicate a lack of faith, or a lack of trust, or apostasy, or doesn't make someone a bad Mormon or a bad person and if you believe differently than this, it doesn't make you superior and a better Mormon and neither does it make you an inferior or worse Mormon. We all have our faults and weaknesses.

-Finrock

This from Elder Packer:

"Historians seem to take great pride in publishing something new, particularly if it illustrates a weakness or mistake of a prominent historical figure. For some reason, historians and novelists seem to savor such things. If it related to a living person, it would come under the heading of gossip. History can be as misleading as gossip and much more difficult—often impossible—to verify.

The writer or the teacher who has an exaggerated loyalty to the theory that everything must be told is laying a foundation for his own judgment. He should not complain if one day he himself receives as he has given. Perhaps that is what is contemplated in having one’s sins preached from the housetops.

Some time ago a historian gave a lecture to an audience of college students on one of the past Presidents of the Church. It seemed to be his purpose to show that that President was a man subject to the foibles of men. He introduced many so-called facts that put that President in a very unfavorable light, particularly when they were taken out of the context of the historical period in which he lived.

Someone who was not theretofore acquainted with this historical figure (particularly someone not mature) must have come away very negatively affected. Those who were unsteady in their convictions surely must have had their faith weakened or destroyed.

I began teaching seminary under Abel S. Rich, principal. He was the second seminary teacher employed by the Church and a man of maturity, wisdom, and experience. Among the lessons I learned from him was this: when I want to know about a man, I seek out those who know him best. I do not go to his enemies but to his friends. He would not confide in his enemy. You could not know the innermost thoughts of his heart by consulting those who would injure him.

We are teachers and should know the importance of the principle of prerequisites. It is easily illustrated with the subject of chemistry. No responsible chemist would advise, and no reputable school would permit, a beginning student to register for advanced chemistry without a knowledge of the fundamental principles of chemistry. The advanced course would be a destructive mistake, even for a very brilliant beginning student. Even that brilliant student would need some knowledge of the elements, of atoms and molecules, of electrons, of valence, of compounds and properties. To let a student proceed without the knowledge of fundamentals would surely destroy his interest in, and his future with, the field of chemistry.

The same point may be made with reference to so-called sex education. There are many things that are factual, even elevating, about this subject. There are aspects of this subject that are so perverted and ugly it does little good to talk of them at all. They cannot be safely taught to little children or to those who are not eligible by virtue of age or maturity or authorizing ordinance to understand them.

Teaching some things that are true, prematurely or at the wrong time, can invite sorrow and heartbreak instead of the joy intended to accompany learning.

What is true with these two subjects is, if anything, doubly true in the field of religion. The scriptures teach emphatically that we must give milk before meat. The Lord made it very clear that some things are to be taught selectively, and some things are to be given only to those who are worthy.

It matters very much not only what we are told but when we are told it. Be careful that you build faith rather than destroy it.

President William E. Berrett has told us how grateful he is that a testimony that the past leaders of the Church were prophets of God was firmly fixed in his mind before he was exposed to some of the so-called facts that historians have put in their published writings.

This principle of prerequisites is so fundamental to all education that I have never been quite able to understand why historians are so willing to ignore it. And, if those outside the Church have little to guide them but the tenets of their profession, those inside the Church should know better.

Some historians write and speak as though the only ones to read or listen are mature, experienced historians. They write and speak to a very narrow audience. Unfortunately, many of the things they tell one another are not uplifting, go far beyond the audience they may have intended, and destroy faith.

What that historian did with the reputation of the President of the Church was not worth doing. He seemed determined to convince everyone that the prophet was a man. We knew that already. All of the prophets and all of the Apostles have been men. It would have been much more worthwhile for him to have convinced us that the man was a prophet, a fact quite as true as the fact that he was a man.

He has taken something away from the memory of a prophet. He has destroyed faith. I remind you of the truth Shakespeare taught, ironically spoken by Iago: “Who steals my purse steals trash; ‘tis something, nothing; / ‘Twas mine, ‘tis his, and has been slave to thousands— / But he that filches from me my good name / Robs me of that which not enriches him / And makes me poor indeed” (Othello, act 3, sc. 3, lines 157–61).

The sad thing is that he may have, in years past, taken great interest in those who led the Church and desired to draw close to them. But instead of following that long, steep, discouraging, and occasionally dangerous path to spiritual achievement, instead of going up to where they were, he devised a way of collecting mistakes and weaknesses and limitations to compare with his own. In that sense he has attempted to bring a historical figure down to his level and in that way feel close to him and perhaps justify his own weaknesses.

I agree with President Stephen L Richards, who stated:

“If a man of history has secured over the years a high place in the esteem of his countrymen and fellow men and has become imbedded in their affections, it has seemingly become a pleasing pastime for researchers and scholars to delve into the past of such a man, discover, if may be, some of his weaknesses, and then write a book exposing hitherto unpublished alleged factual findings, all of which tends to rob the historic character of the idealistic esteem and veneration in which he may have been held through the years.

“This ‘debunking,’ we are told, is in the interest of realism, that the facts should be known. If an historic character has made a great contribution to country and society, and if his name and his deeds have been used over the generations to foster high ideals of character and service, what good is to be accomplished by digging out of the past and exploiting weaknesses, which perhaps a generous contemporary public forgave and subdued?” (Where Is Wisdom? [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1955], p. 155.)

That historian or scholar who delights in pointing out the weakness and frailties of present or past leaders destroys faith. A destroyer of faith—particularly one within the Church, and more particularly one who is employed specifically to build faith—places himself in great spiritual jeopardy. He is serving the wrong master, and unless he repents, he will not be among the faithful in the eternities.

One who chooses to follow the tenets of his profession, regardless of how they may injure the Church or destroy the faith of those not ready for “advanced history,” is himself in spiritual jeopardy. If that one is a member of the Church, he has broken his covenants and will be accountable. After all of the tomorrows of mortality have been finished, he will not stand where he might have stood.

I recall a conversation with President Henry D. Moyle. We were driving back from Arizona and were talking about a man who destroyed the faith of young people from the vantage point of a teaching position. Someone asked President Moyle why this man was still a member of the Church when he did things like that. “He is not a member of the Church,” President Moyle answered firmly. Another replied that he had not heard of his excommunication. “He has excommunicated himself,” President Moyle responded. “He has cut himself off from the Spirit of God. Whether or not we get around to holding a court doesn’t matter that much; he has cut himself off from the Spirit of the Lord.”

Cool. Thanks for sharing. You've shared this before. Some of it is false doctrine, some of it doesn't apply, and nobody is on a mission to point out the flaws of "great" men.

Apostles and prophets are just men. That is a fact. Nothing evil, bad, or wrong about it. Nothing evil, bad, or wrong with stating it and acknowledging it.

-Finrock

[Onsdag]

I think that the reference in the book of mormon is not about the Lord's prophets, but others. How many times did the Lord punish people for rejecting his prophets?

The answer to your question depends on what you mean by "punish".

I think that scripture can apply to any mortal. History has borne this out.

Prophets are just people. In any case its certainly not apostate to consider that prophets and apostles may be wolves in sheep clothing. Plus, you have to take in to account circumstances of people before you wave the apostate stick.

-Finrock

Read about the role of Prophets in the scriptures. They aren't 'just people'. Pres. Monson and the members of the quorum of 12 are 'prophets, seers and revelators' who are set at the head of the church to lead and guide us. Look at Jesus' calling of the 12 disciples in 3rd Nephi and the role they were given in teaching, ministering to and serving the people. Look at Jesus calling the 12 apostles in the New Testament and the role they played after his ascension--they were his servants to do his will in spreading the gospel, teaching the people, administering ordinances etc.. Look at the Lord's own words in the Doctrine and Covenants about the role of Prophets as well as nature of the Prophets of the Old Testament. If you do this, there's no way you can think they are 'just people'.

'CAN' a prophet be a wolf in sheep's clothing? It's possible, but if you trust Heavenly Father then you won't assume Pres. Monson or any of our Prophets serving today are going to lead you into dark paths. As I said to Juliet, if you don't trust our living Prophets, then you don't have a testimony of their role and their mission. That's a problem for you and makes you vulnerable to being deceived. The Lord gave a warning against false prophets in the last days, but that was about those who were not properly ordained and set at the head of the church to lead it. The Lord didn't expect you to be second guessing and questioning HIS established divinely called authorities, worrying they might be deceiving you.

This thread is about a woman who has set herself up as a prophet(while she never calls herself one, she puts herself forward as one) and she's also a practitioner of what the news report called 'christ centered' energy healing and she charges money for her service--exactly what was warned about in the church statement. If you want to ignore their warning, you can, you have that choice, but don't say you weren't warned. And those who claim to have a testimony that we are lead by prophets of God, ought to be wise and heed the warning, not look for excuses and rationalizations so they can continue to do what they want.

They are, when it is all said in done, just people, like the rest of us. They have a particular calling and a particular position in the Church, but that doesn't make them anything more than mortal men with a different responsibility. No man or woman is greater, better, or more important than another man or woman in the grand scheme of things. We are neither inferior nor superior to the apostles. What you say from the scriptures can apply and in fact does apply to any servant of God who is acting within the capacity in which he or she has been placed.

Not to mention, many a "prophet" and an "apostle" has fallen. They are not exempt from the weaknesses and frailties of men. They stumble and fall. They say things that are wrong. They sometimes lead people astray and later generations have to denounce their words. "Apostles" sometimes commit adultery and need to be excommunicated. Sometimes, they apostatize. Sometimes they were traitors from the beginning.

We shouldn't place the apostles on a pedestal. They have their particular duty and calling in life, but, they are, when it is all said and done, just as dependent on Jesus Christ as any one of us. They are just people, mortal men, working out their salvation the best as they can just like the rest of us.

These are factual statements. Doesn't indicate a lack of faith, or a lack of trust, or apostasy, or doesn't make someone a bad Mormon or a bad person and if you believe differently than this, it doesn't make you superior and a better Mormon and neither does it make you an inferior or worse Mormon. We all have our faults and weaknesses.

-Finrock

I agree with AI2.0 on this. Sure, you make some valid points - even the best of us suffer weaknesses and are prone to making mistakes, falling, and even leading others astray. However, and in spite of that, the leaders of Christ's Church have been "called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof." Lest we forget, it was God who stood in the midst of "many of the noble and great ones" in the pre-mortal realms and declared "These I will make my rulers; for he... saw that they were good." The Lord's Prophets were "chosen before [they were] born."

And, in my opinion, to declare them as "just people, like the rest of us" and, perhaps worse, to encourage people to "consider that prophets and apostles may be wolves in sheep clothing" is disingenuous and duplicitous as it undermines their holy calling and authority as duly ordained servants of God and cultivates the seed of dissension and apostasy among the saints. How you cannot see this is beyond me as examples of this are to be found all throughout scripture, as Summerwind has pointed out.

Take, for instance, the case of Aaron and Miriam against Moses - this just after Moses had declared that he wished all the people were prophets (a scripture the Snufferites love to bring up, all the while forgetting the second half of the story, which is...) Aaron and Miriam became prideful and lifted their heels against the Lord's anointed Prophet Moses and the Lord came out against them in no uncertain terms, including inflicting Leprosy upon Miriam, until they repented of their evil. Another great example of this is found in the Doctrine and Covenants where the Lord declares:

14. ...and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;
15. For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;
16. They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.
17. Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments;
18. And also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets—
19. The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—
20. But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world;

Funny thing about these verses is that we see again how the Snufferites would use verses 19-20 to justify not following or trusting in the Prophets, all the while forgetting that the Lord himself rebukes this philosophy, saying "they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people; For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant; They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god." Again, we need to remember that Christ has declared "whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same." Therefore, those who undermine and reject the Lord's chosen servants are in effect rejecting Him, for "the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets."

We see this thought also expressed in Luke 20:1-19 where the scribes, priests, and elders (those 'religious' folk of the day who were in a position to teach and influence others... Snufferites, anyone?) came questioning Jesus' authority. He, perceiving their thoughts and intentions, asked them where they thought John's (a 'Prophet', if you will) authority came from. This put them in a precarious position because if they declared him a Prophet of God then they knew Jesus would call them on it because they did not believe or hearken to him as such, but if they declared that he was 'just a man' like you or I then they knew that they would be stoned by the people who knew that he was a Prophet. To avoid responsibility and accountability they therefore abdicated from declaring where John's authority came from. Jesus thereafter taught them a parable of a 'certain man' (God, if you will) who planted a vineyard and let it out to husbandmen. He later sent his authorized 'servants' (Prophets) to collect the fruit of the vineyard, but in every instance they were rejected and treated very poorly. He then sent his 'beloved son' (Jesus Christ), giving them the opportunity to "reverence him when they see him," but alas they rejected and killed even him. In closing Jesus Christ then said that the Lord of the vineyard would "come and destroy these husbandmen." The priests, scribes, and elders were astonished at this parable and declared "God forbid." Christ then looked upon them and said that the stone which the builders rejected would destroy them. "And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to [kill] him;... for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them."

Those who reject the Lord's chosen and anointed servants (as the 'husbandmen' had done with all the Prophets who had come before in the above parable) are, in truth, rejecting the Lord himself.

"And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place. But if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest, because they pollute mine holy grounds, and mine holy ordinances, and charters, and my holy words which I give unto them." (D&C 124:45-46)

D&C 133:
57. And for this cause, that men might be made partakers of the glories which were to be revealed, the Lord sent forth the fulness of his gospel, his everlasting covenant, reasoning in plainness and simplicity—
58. To prepare the weak for those things which are coming on the earth, and for the Lord’s errand in the day when the weak shall confound the wise, and the little one become a strong nation, and two shall put their tens of thousands to flight.
59. And by the weak things of the earth the Lord shall thresh the nations by the power of his Spirit.
60. And for this cause these commandments were given; they were commanded to be kept from the world in the day that they were given, but now are to go forth unto all flesh—
61. And this according to the mind and will of the Lord, who ruleth over all flesh.
62. And unto him that repenteth and sanctifieth himself before the Lord shall be given eternal life.
63. And upon them that hearken not to the voice of the Lord shall be fulfilled that which was written by the prophet Moses, that they should be cut off from among the people.
64. And also that which was written by the prophet Malachi: For, behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
65. Wherefore, this shall be the answer of the Lord unto them:
66. In that day when I came unto mine own, no man among you received me, and you were driven out.
67. When I called again there was none of you to answer; yet my arm was not shortened at all that I could not redeem, neither my power to deliver.
68. Behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea. I make the rivers a wilderness; their fish stink, and die for thirst.
69. I clothe the heavens with blackness, and make sackcloth their covering.
70. And this shall ye have of my hand—ye shall lie down in sorrow.
71. Behold, and lo, there are none to deliver you; for ye obeyed not my voice when I called to you out of the heavens; ye believed not my servants, and when they were sent unto you ye received them not.
72. Wherefore, they sealed up the testimony and bound up the law, and ye were delivered over unto darkness.
73. These shall go away into outer darkness, where there is weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth.
74. Behold the Lord your God hath spoken it. Amen.

Need I go on?

No, the Prophets and Apostles of God are not "just men." They are His chosen vessels. And we would do well to hearken to and follow them because in doing so we are hearkening to and following God himself. Of that I testify, according to the Spirit of God which is in me.

[Onsdag]

Oh, and lest I completely derail this thread - the actions of Julie Rowe are deplorable. The farther she wanders down this path the more apparent it becomes that she has lost her way and is drawing others along a perilous path. It truly is sad.