September 23, 2017: Signs in the Heavens!

[sushi_chef]

sushi_ kinda believes/imagines there are two types of flooding in the latter day;
one is man-made ones by geoengineering weapons,
the other is a flood of mighty waters overflowing for the drunkards of Ephraim, lake bonneville surfacing, caused by an approaching 10 tribes star.



also california is kinda floating : walker lake submarine https://search.yahoo.co.jp/image/search ... 0submarine
:-B

[LDS Physician]

Again...having a sign that occurs without knowing what that sign signifies or what will happen in conjunction with the sign is fairly worthless. You can't just say "this fantastically rare thing is about to happen with all sorts of wonderful astronomical alignments and after that, something significant is going to happen" and then not specify what the significant thing is.

Of course something significant is going to happen after that sign occurs...all of the end time events will happen after that sign, but are they directly associated with it? What's the timing of those events?

Get what I'm saying?

Note that this is not a sign without a connected event. The same chapter (Revelation 12) indicates that the sign is in the likeness of things on the Earth. The chapter then proceeds to explain what will be happening and what the sign means using relatively straightforward symbolism. Certainly the timing may not be to the day, but I doubt the events the sign symbolizes will be very distant in time from the sign itself.

I like what the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “the book of Revelation is one of the plainest books God ever caused to be written.” Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, comp. Joseph Fielding Smith (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1938), 290;

What's more plain than those first couple of versus of Revelation 12 being a direct description of an actual astronomical event. My opinion is that the events the sign symbolizes are of great import, but I won't share my interpretation of the symbolism here. That's for each to do on their own.

Ya. I am often rubbed wrong by statements like yours: "I've figured it out, yet I'm not going to tell you because you'll have to get to my spiritual level of enlightenment yourself." Meh.

[Mcox]

I think it's important to remember that the church is against any form of astrology, which is the study of the movements and relative positions of celestial bodies interpreted as having an influence on human affairs and the natural world.
Which I believe many in the church are doing? Many look at the ailment of stars and planets to predict last days events. This is different from Astronomy, which is the scientific study of stars, planets, and other objects in outer space. Which the church encourages this knowledge.
I do believe as I have stated before, that most of the events of the last days are happening all around us (spiritual not so much physical) and we are so focused on the events being literal, that we are missing the signs. We are looking at the sky's when we should be looking at the heavens!

[Hivetyrant36]

Go ahead, it's a great song, but if you bothered to read what has been said, no one is saying the world will end or approaching it. Scripture isn't saying it, and I haven't seen anything from anyone thinking it will. No earthquakes, no economic crashes, no magnetic pole reversals.

It does however mark something important God wants us to be aware of, something that's important to Him. I'm guessing it will end up going over the heads of most...

Then you aren't familiar with Julie Rowe, or the AVOW/Roger Young crowd?

I am all too familiar, and I'd really like to keep them out of this discussion, for reasons your post alludes to: they bring in other stuff that confuses the topic.

As far as end of the world stuff, Rev 12 does say this:

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So sometime shortly after this event Lucifer will cause some kind of earth event that generates a massive flood with the intent of destroying the outcome of this event. This will fail, which will lead to Lucifer declaring all-out war on any remnants of true Christianity.

These are the things I mentioned that would be something everyone would see. If you claim to be a follower of Christ, you will be targeted. Before that there will be a major flooding event that will cause massive devastation where it happens. However, there is no affixed time when this will happen. I think it's a safe bet it will happen within 3.5 years after September, I'm guessing it will be a relatively short time afterward followed by over 3 years of severe persecution. I don't see any point in trying to affix an exact date, but I do see a point in being aware of this and responding accordingly. After September, we're on a countdown.

Just my opinion here...but you take events that were meant to be symbols (i.e. satan sending a flood) literally. I suggest you will NEVER see that "flood".

Hmm... In my opinion, any time prophecy mentions a dragon and a woman and stuff like that, it's talking about what happened or will happen with the planets. Dragons and serpents are plasma connections between planets. As in the days of Noah.

[DesertWonderer]

.

[DesertWonderer]

I am all too familiar, and I'd really like to keep them out of this discussion, for reasons your post alludes to: they bring in other stuff that confuses the topic.

As far as end of the world stuff, Rev 12 does say this:

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So sometime shortly after this event Lucifer will cause some kind of earth event that generates a massive flood with the intent of destroying the outcome of this event. This will fail, which will lead to Lucifer declaring all-out war on any remnants of true Christianity.

These are the things I mentioned that would be something everyone would see. If you claim to be a follower of Christ, you will be targeted. Before that there will be a major flooding event that will cause massive devastation where it happens. However, there is no affixed time when this will happen. I think it's a safe bet it will happen within 3.5 years after September, I'm guessing it will be a relatively short time afterward followed by over 3 years of severe persecution. I don't see any point in trying to affix an exact date, but I do see a point in being aware of this and responding accordingly. After September, we're on a countdown.

Just my opinion here...but you take events that were meant to be symbols (i.e. satan sending a flood) literally. I suggest you will NEVER see that "flood".

Hmm... In my opinion, any time prophecy mentions a dragon and a woman and stuff like that, it's talking about what happened or will happen with the planets. Dragons and serpents are plasma connections between planets. As in the days of Noah.

Everybody's got one I guess. There is no reason add water to a cup that is already full, right? BUT since I'm a masochistic deep down...I'll try adding a little water anyway. When apocalyptic scripture, which by definition is symbolic, or parables, etc...utilizes a virtuous woman in the story line, the virtuous woman represents the church. In the same way that the bridegroom represents Christ.

[DesertWonderer]

Again...having a sign that occurs without knowing what that sign signifies or what will happen in conjunction with the sign is fairly worthless. You can't just say "this fantastically rare thing is about to happen with all sorts of wonderful astronomical alignments and after that, something significant is going to happen" and then not specify what the significant thing is.

Of course something significant is going to happen after that sign occurs...all of the end time events will happen after that sign, but are they directly associated with it? What's the timing of those events?

Get what I'm saying?

Note that this is not a sign without a connected event. The same chapter (Revelation 12) indicates that the sign is in the likeness of things on the Earth. The chapter then proceeds to explain what will be happening and what the sign means using relatively straightforward symbolism. Certainly the timing may not be to the day, but I doubt the events the sign symbolizes will be very distant in time from the sign itself.

I like what the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “the book of Revelation is one of the plainest books God ever caused to be written.” Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, comp. Joseph Fielding Smith (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1938), 290;

What's more plain than those first couple of versus of Revelation 12 being a direct description of an actual astronomical event. My opinion is that the events the sign symbolizes are of great import, but I won't share my interpretation of the symbolism here. That's for each to do on their own.

Ya. I am often rubbed wrong by statements like yours: "I've figured it out, yet I'm not going to tell you because you'll have to get to my spiritual level of enlightenment yourself." Meh.

lol and a good indicator that that person doesn't know what their talking about.

[DesertWonderer]

sushi_ kinda believes/imagines there are two types of flooding in the latter day;
one is man-made ones by geoengineering weapons,
the other is a flood of mighty waters overflowing for the drunkards of Ephraim, lake bonneville surfacing, caused by an approaching 10 tribes star.



also california is kinda floating : walker lake submarine https://search.yahoo.co.jp/image/search ... 0submarine
:-B

Been reading remote viewers'' material again have we?

[DesertWonderer]

I think it's important to remember that the church is against any form of astrology, which is the study of the movements and relative positions of celestial bodies interpreted as having an influence on human affairs and the natural world.
Which I believe many in the church are doing? Many look at the ailment of stars and planets to predict last days events. This is different from Astronomy, which is the scientific study of stars, planets, and other objects in outer space. Which the church encourages this knowledge.
I do believe as I have stated before, that most of the events of the last days are happening all around us (spiritual not so much physical) and we are so focused on the events being literal, that we are missing the signs. We are looking at the sky's when we should be looking at the heavens!

Her's an excellent talk by DHO that makes the point you mande Mcox.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... g?lang=eng

We are living in the prophesied time “when peace shall be taken from the earth” (D&C 1:35), when “all things shall be in commotion” and “men’s hearts shall fail them” (D&C 88:91). There are many temporal causes of commotion, including wars and natural disasters, but an even greater cause of current “commotion” is spiritual.

Viewing our surroundings through the lens of faith and with an eternal perspective, we see all around us a fulfillment of the prophecy that “the devil shall have power over his own dominion” (D&C 1:35). Our hymn describes “the foe in countless numbers, / Marshaled in the ranks of sin” (“Hope of Israel,” Hymns, no. 259), and so it is.

Evil that used to be localized and covered like a boil is now legalized and paraded like a banner. The most fundamental roots and bulwarks of civilization are questioned or attacked. Nations disavow their religious heritage. Marriage and family responsibilities are discarded as impediments to personal indulgence. The movies and magazines and television that shape our attitudes are filled with stories or images that portray the children of God as predatory beasts or, at best, as trivial creations pursuing little more than personal pleasure. And too many of us accept this as entertainment.

The men and women who made epic sacrifices to combat evil regimes in the past were shaped by values that are disappearing from our public teaching. The good, the true, and the beautiful are being replaced by the no-good, the “whatever,” and the valueless fodder of personal whim. Not surprisingly, many of our youth and adults are caught up in pornography, pagan piercing of body parts, self-serving pleasure pursuits, dishonest behavior, revealing attire, foul language, and degrading sexual indulgence.

An increasing number of opinion leaders and followers deny the existence of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and revere only the gods of secularism. Many in positions of power and influence deny the right and wrong defined by divine decree. Even among those who profess to believe in right and wrong, there are “them that call evil good, and good evil” (Isa. 5:20; 2 Ne. 15:20). Many also deny individual responsibility and practice dependence on others, seeking, like the foolish virgins, to live on borrowed substance and borrowed light.

All of this is grievous in the sight of our Heavenly Father, who loves all of His children and forbids every practice that keeps any from returning to His presence.

[BackBlast]

What's more plain than those first couple of versus of Revelation 12 being a direct description of an actual astronomical event. My opinion is that the events the sign symbolizes are of great import, but I won't share my interpretation of the symbolism here. That's for each to do on their own.

Ya. I am often rubbed wrong by statements like yours: "I've figured it out, yet I'm not going to tell you because you'll have to get to my spiritual level of enlightenment yourself." Meh.

The interpretation doesn't require a great deal of effort or knowledge.

The woman is the Church, the child is the Kingdom of God.

Birth is a beginning. Children start small.

There is nothing to say that this event will be seen or noticed by the world at large. Doesn't mean it won't be as important as the scriptures rather plainly state. The Church should be plainly aware of it though.

The real question is, "in the likeness of things on the earth" to mean, realtime? As in it is happening at that very moment? It could be. But it could also be a precursor for the wise to be ready for the moment to come very soon, which I might throw a ballpark guess as to mean sometime within 2-4 years.

We are not to be blind to these times, the Lord has stated that by watching we may indeed know the season. I believe this to be one of those markers of the season.

[sushi_chef]

Been reading remote viewers'' material again have we?

might this one?!
"The second dream was more like a vision. It was about 20 years ago: I literally was driving south on I-15 in the early afternoon. This was before the freeway was widened....
. As I looked toward the north I saw the Salt Lake Temple completely surrounded by water. It was raised up slightly and had what seemed a moat of dangerous water around it. Further north towards Bountiful, Centerville and Ogden I saw fires and smoke in the distance. The water from Temple Square (the Tabernacle was destroyed) rushed out towards the Great Salt Lake and then it filtered into the desert towards Tooele and Grantsville. This was my panoramic view of what the Salt Lake Valley was going to look like after a huge earthquake.
"
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19185&hilit=dream&start=60#p420714
:-B

[brianj]

The interpretation doesn't require a great deal of effort or knowledge.

The woman is the Church, the child is the Kingdom of God.

Birth is a beginning. Children start small.

There is nothing to say that this event will be seen or noticed by the world at large. Doesn't mean it won't be as important as the scriptures rather plainly state. The Church should be plainly aware of it though.

The real question is, "in the likeness of things on the earth" to mean, realtime? As in it is happening at that very moment? It could be. But it could also be a precursor for the wise to be ready for the moment to come very soon, which I might throw a ballpark guess as to mean sometime within 2-4 years.

We are not to be blind to these times, the Lord has stated that by watching we may indeed know the season. I believe this to be one of those markers of the season.

Apparently the interpretation does require a great deal of effort. As I read Revelation, including the very helpful information in the footnotes, I am convinced the description is symbolic. The dragon is Satan, the third of the stars are the third of the hosts of Heaven, the child is the church, etc. Yet plenty of people here disregard the church's counsel to avoid astrology and convince themselves that an alignment nobody will be able to see because the sun will be in the middle of the event is what was described by John.

Do those of you who believe that a planetary alignment is what John described think the people who wrote and approved those footnotes were wrong?

[BackBlast]

The interpretation doesn't require a great deal of effort or knowledge.

The woman is the Church, the child is the Kingdom of God.

Birth is a beginning. Children start small.

There is nothing to say that this event will be seen or noticed by the world at large. Doesn't mean it won't be as important as the scriptures rather plainly state. The Church should be plainly aware of it though.

The real question is, "in the likeness of things on the earth" to mean, realtime? As in it is happening at that very moment? It could be. But it could also be a precursor for the wise to be ready for the moment to come very soon, which I might throw a ballpark guess as to mean sometime within 2-4 years.

We are not to be blind to these times, the Lord has stated that by watching we may indeed know the season. I believe this to be one of those markers of the season.

Apparently the interpretation does require a great deal of effort. As I read Revelation, including the very helpful information in the footnotes, I am convinced the description is symbolic. The dragon is Satan, the third of the stars are the third of the hosts of Heaven, the child is the church, etc. Yet plenty of people here disregard the church's counsel to avoid astrology and convince themselves that an alignment nobody will be able to see because the sun will be in the middle of the event is what was described by John.

Do those of you who believe that a planetary alignment is what John described think the people who wrote and approved those footnotes were wrong?

Spelled out here

7 And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of our God and his Christ.

Footnotes are footnotes, they are potential aides. They have never been canonized and I've never seen a reason to use them as definitive.

Astrology: the divination of the supposed influences of the stars and planets on human affairs and terrestrial events by their positions and aspects

This isn't a "divination" of human affairs from their positions and aspects. The celestial objects are time keeping pieces, and are intended to testify of the divine plan through signs and symbols. Astronomy and understanding the divine through it is a true principle. Astrology is the false counterfeit.

14 And I, God, said: Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven, to divide the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and for years;

Properly identifying scriptural or prophetic signs is a proper use of astronomy.

[BackBlast]

Quick follow up.

I would like to say that generally bride/woman/virgin are symbolic of a supplicant, follower, or church - those who would attach themselves to the bridegroom - Christ, individually or collectively. Such a symbol is very good at spanning generations while yielding its information readily.

[OCDMOM]

http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/201 ... h_sun.html. This is an article by John Pratt on the Astronomy of 23 Sept 2017. He believes that all the constellations represent Christ. Here is his conclusion." Three possible fulfillments are proposed of the prophecy in Rev. 12 of the woman clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet who delivers a man child whom a dragon wants to devour. Each of those corresponds to configurations of the sun and moon in those locations in the constellation of the Maiden (Virgo) on the Feast of Trumpets: one in 2 BC, one in 1832 and one in 2017. In the first the woman represents the Virgin Mary, her son is Jesus Christ and the attempt of the dragon is the slaughter of the infants. The sign is understood as heralding the birth of the Savior on the following Passover.

The second proposed date is a perfect fit because the planet Venus, which is identified with Christ, is near Spica, the star representing the son of the Maiden. Moreover Venus is in the "Birth" phase of its cycle. And finally, there are two planets located near her head where the prophecy says there should be a crown of stars. The event being heralded by this sign is the birth of the political Kingdom of God on the following Passover. The inclusion in the prophecy of the dragon casting down the stars of heaven shortly thereafter is identified with the Night the Stars Fell in Nov 1833.

Finally, on Sat 23 Sep 2017 there will be a similar fulfillment to that of 1832 with the planet Jupiter being "born" of the woman after a 10 month gestation period in her womb. That is especially interesting because again there is a planet at her crown and it also occurs on a holy day on nine sacred calendars, the most for any day in 2017. The meaning of this sign is not clear to me, but it is noted that the Kingdom of God was taken to heaven shortly after birth, so this sign might herald some sort of return or rebirth of the Kingdom of God."

[brianj]

Do those of you who believe that a planetary alignment is what John described think the people who wrote and approved those footnotes were wrong?

Spelled out here

7 And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of our God and his Christ.

Sorry, not getting it. I see nothing to suggest that this is a last days event or that it is something that nobody will be able to see because of the location of the sun.

Footnotes are footnotes, they are potential aides. They have never been canonized and I've never seen a reason to use them as definitive.

Astrology: the divination of the supposed influences of the stars and planets on human affairs and terrestrial events by their positions and aspects

This isn't a "divination" of human affairs from their positions and aspects. The celestial objects are time keeping pieces, and are intended to testify of the divine plan through signs and symbols. Astronomy and understanding the divine through it is a true principle. Astrology is the false counterfeit.

14 And I, God, said: Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven, to divide the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and for years;

Properly identifying scriptural or prophetic signs is a proper use of astronomy.

Umm... No. Astronomy is a science. Astronomy involves the study of what exoplanetary objects are made of, their mass, their life cycle, etc. Astronomy is not the study of what's happening in the sky and how it compares to your interpretation of the Bible.

Additionally, you are trying to divine the time of terrestrial events by the easily predictable positions of planets. This is exactly the definition of astrology.

[BackBlast]

Sorry, not getting it. I see nothing to suggest that this is a last days event or that it is something that nobody will be able to see because of the location of the sun.
Umm... No. Astronomy is a science. Astronomy involves the study of what exoplanetary objects are made of, their mass, their life cycle, etc. Astronomy is not the study of what's happening in the sky and how it compares to your interpretation of the Bible.

Additionally, you are trying to divine the time of terrestrial events by the easily predictable positions of planets. This is exactly the definition of astrology.

I'm sorry, I believe I misunderstood you about understanding the symbols. That verse tells you the proper interpretation of the symbols I was spelling out. I thought it was that you were not understanding very well, sorry about that.

You continue to call this Astrology and I completely disagree. Astrology is horoscopes, identifying your sign your birthdate, how it relates to your personality, blah blah. Just look up how to do it. Step #1 is... horoscopes.

The fact that the woman represents the church and the child the kingdom of God suggests that this sign also occurs during the temporal existence of the earth. Last days, well, depends on your view of when the kingdom of God is born on earth.

It is specified as a great sign in heaven. As it is the role of the heavens, the bodies and lights there in, to demonstrate signs. I find it a very logical use to say that therein we will find them. A plain reading of Rev 12 and comparing it to the arrangement of Sept 23rd fits perfectly, and it's the only time in 7000 years this occurs. That's a pretty strong and easily understood testament. This is no where near as subjective as lunar or solar eclipses, which is why I believe it was labeled a great sign. You mention that nobody can see it. And I counter that we have the tools today to identify it and "view" it, despite the fact that it is a day time sign. And, it didn't all come together until a few years prior. Which is perfect timing as well if it was only intended to be understood, at large, shortly before occurring.

Using a narrow modern view of the study of the heavens does not mean it isn't an equally valid spiritual topic.

Using the positions of stars, planets, moon, and sun to identify previously specified signs and events is a completely valid use. With existing scriptural examples such as... Detecting the time of Christ's birth by watching the signs in the heavens. The people watching for that sign and then seeking it were labeled as wise men, not deplorable astrological soothsayers.

[JT1]

Good post BackBlast.

[Hogmeister]

Again...having a sign that occurs without knowing what that sign signifies or what will happen in conjunction with the sign is fairly worthless. You can't just say "this fantastically rare thing is about to happen with all sorts of wonderful astronomical alignments and after that, something significant is going to happen" and then not specify what the significant thing is.

Of course something significant is going to happen after that sign occurs...all of the end time events will happen after that sign, but are they directly associated with it? What's the timing of those events?

Get what I'm saying?

Ok my prediction- A Latter day king David will be born and possibly a Davidic Servant(Elias,John) shall begin his ministry...I do have to say that whether these events shall occur on the date(ie 23/9/17) or as J.Pratt suggested the sign is heralding the events to happen in the Jewish new year(between sept 17 and sept 18, with April/Passover being most likely date of the fulfillment), I do not know. thanx

I do not believe the Davidic servant is a single individual. Ref D&C 113. The Davidic servant is likely the restored church and priesthood in the end times (The root of Jesse - A pleasing servant to the Lord, collectively but not individually speaking). There is also the possibility that Isaiah is really referring to at least 2 end time servants that may be difficult to separate in his ancient allegory of the end times (at least he talking about 2 servants in Isaiah 11).

Zion is referred to as a woman in the same section (113) but it is clearly explained that she or Zion is a people in the last days, and so is the servant/decendant to whom rightly belongs the priesthood.

I believe the rod/shoot of Jesse that is referred to as a powerful servant (but no priesthood) is also a people or a nation... guess which? A hint is that the rod of Jesse (the powerful servant with no priesthood which is a people or nation) will leave the root of Jesse (a righteous remnant people) after it (the powerful people or nation) has been removed or is cut off. A true branch (another people) that will bear good fruit will then be grafted/connected to the root (the righteous remnant) and will thus be connected to the stem (Christ).

[Zion2080]

If the sign occurs this September, then we must know that the Second Coming is NOT in 200-300 years!

[brianj]

Sorry, not getting it. I see nothing to suggest that this is a last days event or that it is something that nobody will be able to see because of the location of the sun.
Umm... No. Astronomy is a science. Astronomy involves the study of what exoplanetary objects are made of, their mass, their life cycle, etc. Astronomy is not the study of what's happening in the sky and how it compares to your interpretation of the Bible.

Additionally, you are trying to divine the time of terrestrial events by the easily predictable positions of planets. This is exactly the definition of astrology.

I'm sorry, I believe I misunderstood you about understanding the symbols. That verse tells you the proper interpretation of the symbols I was spelling out. I thought it was that you were not understanding very well, sorry about that.

You continue to call this Astrology and I completely disagree. Astrology is horoscopes, identifying your sign your birthdate, how it relates to your personality, blah blah. Just look up how to do it. Step #1 is... horoscopes.

The fact that the woman represents the church and the child the kingdom of God suggests that this sign also occurs during the temporal existence of the earth. Last days, well, depends on your view of when the kingdom of God is born on earth.

It is specified as a great sign in heaven. As it is the role of the heavens, the bodies and lights there in, to demonstrate signs. I find it a very logical use to say that therein we will find them. A plain reading of Rev 12 and comparing it to the arrangement of Sept 23rd fits perfectly, and it's the only time in 7000 years this occurs. That's a pretty strong and easily understood testament. This is no where near as subjective as lunar or solar eclipses, which is why I believe it was labeled a great sign. You mention that nobody can see it. And I counter that we have the tools today to identify it and "view" it, despite the fact that it is a day time sign. And, it didn't all come together until a few years prior. Which is perfect timing as well if it was only intended to be understood, at large, shortly before occurring.

Using a narrow modern view of the study of the heavens does not mean it isn't an equally valid spiritual topic.

Using the positions of stars, planets, moon, and sun to identify previously specified signs and events is a completely valid use. With existing scriptural examples such as... Detecting the time of Christ's birth by watching the signs in the heavens. The people watching for that sign and then seeking it were labeled as wise men, not deplorable astrological soothsayers.

Regardless of personal opinion, one accepted and published definition of astrology is trying to divine the timing of terrestrial events by the easily predictable positions of planets. And if anybody is trying to divine when events will happen based on what they see in the sky, that action fits the definition of astrology.

Question for you: Is a "great sign in heaven" something that will be easy to see or something you only know happens because of science, because of mathematical analysis of orbits predicting where planets will be because you can't actually see them in that location with the sun so close?

[BackBlast]

Regardless of personal opinion, one accepted and published definition of astrology is trying to divine the timing of terrestrial events by the easily predictable positions of planets. And if anybody is trying to divine when events will happen based on what they see in the sky, that action fits the definition of astrology.

Yet wise men have done exactly that, correctly interpreted a heavenly sign that involved planets and stars and constellations to be able to know when they could see their Savior and were successful in their endeavor due to their wisdom and diligence. Clearly there is an appropriate way to go about this. If that is astrology to you, then I submit that astrology isn't entirely bad.

Question for you: Is a "great sign in heaven" something that will be easy to see or something you only know happens because of science, because of mathematical analysis of orbits predicting where planets will be because you can't actually see them in that location with the sun so close?

In my view. A unique and easily identified sign would fit the definition of great. It's purpose is to give intelligence, not over awe unwitting spectators. Definitely fits with a great sign.

As I said before. Given the tools, if tools are necessary and in this case they are, shows forth wisdom and I find it to be pro-evidence, not a handicap or evidence against it.

[LateOutOfBed]

http://johnpratt.com/items/docs/2016/cl ... h_sun.html

Well, worth the read in regards to what this may or may not mean.

-- Geoff

[brianj]

Regardless of personal opinion, one accepted and published definition of astrology is trying to divine the timing of terrestrial events by the easily predictable positions of planets. And if anybody is trying to divine when events will happen based on what they see in the sky, that action fits the definition of astrology.

Yet wise men have done exactly that, correctly interpreted a heavenly sign that involved planets and stars and constellations to be able to know when they could see their Savior and were successful in their endeavor due to their wisdom and diligence. Clearly there is an appropriate way to go about this. If that is astrology to you, then I submit that astrology isn't entirely bad.

Unfortunately we are going to have to agree to disagree here. I'm not aware of any time recorded in the scriptures when Mercury going retrograde in Sagittarius was held up as a sign by a prophet. You don't need to provide an example.

Question for you: Is a "great sign in heaven" something that will be easy to see or something you only know happens because of science, because of mathematical analysis of orbits predicting where planets will be because you can't actually see them in that location with the sun so close?

In my view. A unique and easily identified sign would fit the definition of great. It's purpose is to give intelligence, not over awe unwitting spectators. Definitely fits with a great sign.

In this case, a follow-up question: Can you name any one time in history when a unique and easily identified sign was seen by all people, or at least all or the people in a scriptural narrative, and recognized?

[JT1]

Regardless of personal opinion, one accepted and published definition of astrology is trying to divine the timing of terrestrial events by the easily predictable positions of planets. And if anybody is trying to divine when events will happen based on what they see in the sky, that action fits the definition of astrology.

Yet wise men have done exactly that, correctly interpreted a heavenly sign that involved planets and stars and constellations to be able to know when they could see their Savior and were successful in their endeavor due to their wisdom and diligence. Clearly there is an appropriate way to go about this. If that is astrology to you, then I submit that astrology isn't entirely bad.

Unfortunately we are going to have to agree to disagree here. I'm not aware of any time recorded in the scriptures when Mercury going retrograde in Sagittarius was held up as a sign by a prophet. You don't need to provide an example.

Question for you: Is a "great sign in heaven" something that will be easy to see or something you only know happens because of science, because of mathematical analysis of orbits predicting where planets will be because you can't actually see them in that location with the sun so close?

In my view. A unique and easily identified sign would fit the definition of great. It's purpose is to give intelligence, not over awe unwitting spectators. Definitely fits with a great sign.

In this case, a follow-up question: Can you name any one time in history when a unique and easily identified sign was seen by all people, or at least all or the people in a scriptural narrative, and recognized?

From George Q. Cannon:
"Even with this experience in the past, the Latter-day Saints themselves are not entirely divested of extravagant views respecting the effects which are likely to follow the fulfillment of predictions yet in the future. Are we not all inclined to look forward to many events which have been predicted by the servants of God as being of so great and wonderful, and I may say so supernatural a character, that when they shall be fulfilled they will even startle us, who believe they are coming, and will compel the unbelieving inhabitants of the earth to accept them as evidences of the truth? In our thoughts this seems to be the natural tendency. I notice it in myself; I notice it in others. When we read respecting the great events which are to take place in connection with this work, as predicted in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, are we not inclined to think that, surely, when these things shall come to pass all the earth, as well as ourselves, will be constrained to acknowledge this to be the work of God, and these events to be indeed those [p. 267a]which have been predicted by the prophets?
Now I would not, for the world, say one word to lessen in the minds of my brethren and sisters the importance of these events; I would not say one word to weaken your proper expectations; but my experience has taught me that the Lord works in the midst of this people by natural means, and that the greatest events that have been spoken of by the holy prophets will come along so naturally as the consequence of certain causes, that unless our eyes are enlightened by the Spirit of God, and the spirit of revelation rests us, we will fail to see that these are the events predicted by the holy prophets."

http://scriptures.byu.edu/jod/jodhtml.p ... 21&disc=29