The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

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kirtland r.m.
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The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by kirtland r.m. »

An army of Elders will be sent to the four quarters of the earth to search out the righteous and warn the wicked of what is coming. All kinds of religions will be started and miracles performed that will deceive the very elect if that were possible. Our sons and daughters must live pure lives so as to be prepared for what is coming.

After a while the Gentiles will gather by the thousands to this place, and Salt Lake City will be classed among the wicked cities of the world. A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of the Saints, and the results will be financial bondage.

Persecution comes next and all true Latter-day Saints will be tested to the limit. Many will apostatize and others will be still not knowing what to do. Darkness will cover the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people. The judgments of God will be poured out on the wicked to the extent that our Elders from far and near will be called home, or in other words the gospel will be taken from the Gentiles and later on carried to the Jews.

The western boundary of the State of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that as President Young tells us, when you return to that place, there will not be left so much as a yellow dog to wag his tail.

Before that day comes, however, the Saints will be put to a test that will try the integrity of the best of them. The pressure will become so great that the more righteous among them will cry unto the Lord day and night until deliverance comes.

Yes, we think we are secure here in the chambers of these everlasting hills, where we can close the doors of the canyons against mobs and persecutors, the wicked and the vile, who have always beset us with violence and robbery, but I want to say to you, my brethren, that the time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to that extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint from the face of an enemy against the people of God.

Then is the time to look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great shifting time, and many will fall. For I say unto you there is a test, a Test, a TEST coming.

This Church has before it many close places through which it will have to pass before the work of God is crowned with glory. The difficulties will be of such a character that the man or woman who does not possess a personal knowledge or witness will fall. If you have not got this testimony, you must live right and call upon the Lord, and cease not until you obtain it.

Remember these sayings: The time will come when no man or woman will be able to endure on borrowed light. Each will have to be guided by the light within themselves. If you do not have the knowledge that Jesus is the Christ, how can you stand? (Heber C. Kimball, First Counselor in the First Presidency, May 1868, in Deseret News, 23 May 1931; see also Conference Report, Oct. 1930, p. 58-59)

Onsdag
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And your point is....?

Post by Onsdag »

kirtland r.m. wrote:The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun....

<snip>
So, would you like to comment or add on to this? How has it begun, for example?

No offense intended, but you haven't added a single thought or point to this discussion. If it was merely your attempt to bring attention to this prophecy then you could have just as easily bumped this thread, or this one, this one, this one, this one, or this one, and probably another half-dozen or so other threads. So why start a new thread and not post anything new - no comments, no thoughts, no observations, nothing at all to even back up or give context for your choice of words in the title? There has been absolutely nothing gained from starting a new thread when there are plenty of others already discussing this prophecy. Same thing goes for your Washington's vision thread - nothing new added - you just posted a vision that was already posted a dozen times elsewhere. I don't mind you posting them - these are some great quotes - but please add to or contribute more than just posting the story with nothing to add to it. How do you feel about it? What have you learned from it? Why are you trying to draw our attention to it? Why is it important for us here and now? How does what you posted in any way support the premise in your title - that this has now begun (as opposed to say 3 years ago)? I just don't get why you would feel the need to start a brand new thread, and give it a title that isn't fitting (it piques interest, but ultimately is just a gimmick with no substance in the thread to support it - essentially hyperbole intended to draw attention). Curious minds want to know. :-?

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francisco.colaco
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Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by francisco.colaco »

Onsdag,

Actually, Kirtland RM did add an important piece of information, and that should start a discussion, being important: Kirtland believes the test which was mentioned by Elder Kimball is now taking place. That alone deserves a new thread.

I read from Samizdat that he believed in June 2012 that the first countdown of 42 months enunciated in Revelation had started. I do not know if Samizdat still agrees with what he wrote before, but I emphatically do. We are starting the very last semester of such countdown, if I am correct.

I think things will fall fast enough.

Onsdag
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Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by Onsdag »

francisco.colaco wrote:Onsdag,

Actually, Kirtland RM did add an important piece of information, and that should start a discussion, being important: Kirtland believes the test which was mentioned by Elder Kimball is now taking place. That alone deserves a new thread.

I read from Samizdat that he believed in June 2012 that the first countdown of 42 months enunciated in Revelation had started. I do not know if Samizdat still agrees with what he wrote before, but I emphatically do. We are starting the very last semester of such countdown, if I am correct.

I think things will fall fast enough.
I would agree with you if he actually posted something, anything, of why he believes it has now begun. Instead he makes a statement as though it were fact that it has now begun, but does nothing to support that statement. No research; no news article posted; no words from our Prophets saying "the Test" has now begun; no speculation, hypothesis, observation, or opinion from kirtland; he didn't even post the statement in the form of a question so as to invite discussion - nothing. Instead the reader is left scratching their head and wondering why or how "the Test... has begun." Kirtland hasn't posted anything that hasn't already been posted a dozen times already. And I still maintain that if he wanted to bring our attention to Heber C. Kimball's prophecy then it would have been far better to simply bump one of these dozens of already started threads discussing it than to post a new one that brings absolutely nothing new to the table. That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it. :-w

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kirtland r.m.
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Re: And your point is....?

Post by kirtland r.m. »

Onsdag wrote:
kirtland r.m. wrote:The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun....

<snip>
So, would you like to comment or add on to this? How has it begun, for example?

No offense intended, but you haven't added a single thought or point to this discussion. If it was merely your attempt to bring attention to this prophecy then you could have just as easily bumped this thread, or this one, this one, this one, this one, or this one, and probably another half-dozen or so other threads. So why start a new thread and not post anything new - no comments, no thoughts, no observations, nothing at all to even back up or give context for your choice of words in the title? There has been absolutely nothing gained from starting a new thread when there are plenty of others already discussing this prophecy. Same thing goes for your Washington's vision thread - nothing new added - you just posted a vision that was already posted a dozen times elsewhere. I don't mind you posting them - these are some great quotes - but please add to or contribute more than just posting the story with nothing to add to it. How do you feel about it? What have you learned from it? Why are you trying to draw our attention to it? Why is it important for us here and now? How does what you posted in any way support the premise in your title - that this has now begun (as opposed to say 3 years ago)? I just don't get why you would feel the need to start a brand new thread, and give it a title that isn't fitting (it piques interest, but ultimately is just a gimmick with no substance in the thread to support it - essentially hyperbole intended to draw attention). Curious minds want to know. :-?
My last post with information about S.L.C.'s first openly gay mayor was made June 15thviewtopic.php?f=2&t=42627, not long before that I posted about S.L.C. just naming a street after gay activist Harvey Milk. I post new information on some continuing themes. Now this quote saying S.L.C. was prophesied to become a very wicked city. It is happening, many active L.D.S. families have moved out of that part of the valley, it continues to happen. Each of these posts helps add to the story. No sweat Onsdag, don't expect you to keep up on everything. Washington's vision was posted again as it is the week of the forth, but I did start another thread about Washington, America, and the Revolutionary War, which has a number of miracles showing divine intervention by the Lord, most readers will learn something from it.

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GrandMasterB
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Re: And your point is....?

Post by GrandMasterB »

kirtland r.m. wrote:
Onsdag wrote:
kirtland r.m. wrote:The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun....

<snip>
So, would you like to comment or add on to this? How has it begun, for example?

No offense intended, but you haven't added a single thought or point to this discussion. If it was merely your attempt to bring attention to this prophecy then you could have just as easily bumped this thread, or this one, this one, this one, this one, or this one, and probably another half-dozen or so other threads. So why start a new thread and not post anything new - no comments, no thoughts, no observations, nothing at all to even back up or give context for your choice of words in the title? There has been absolutely nothing gained from starting a new thread when there are plenty of others already discussing this prophecy. Same thing goes for your Washington's vision thread - nothing new added - you just posted a vision that was already posted a dozen times elsewhere. I don't mind you posting them - these are some great quotes - but please add to or contribute more than just posting the story with nothing to add to it. How do you feel about it? What have you learned from it? Why are you trying to draw our attention to it? Why is it important for us here and now? How does what you posted in any way support the premise in your title - that this has now begun (as opposed to say 3 years ago)? I just don't get why you would feel the need to start a brand new thread, and give it a title that isn't fitting (it piques interest, but ultimately is just a gimmick with no substance in the thread to support it - essentially hyperbole intended to draw attention). Curious minds want to know. :-?
My last post with information about S.L.C.'s first openly gay mayor was made June 15thviewtopic.php?f=2&t=42627, not long before that I posted about S.L.C. just naming a street after gay activist Harvey Milk. I post new information on some continuing themes. Now this quote saying S.L.C. was prophesied to become a very wicked city. It is happening, many active L.D.S. families have moved out of that part of the valley, it continues to happen. Each of these posts helps add to the story. No sweat Onsdag, don't expect you to keep up on everything. Washington's vision was posted again as it is the week of the forth, but I did start another thread about Washington, America, and the Revolutionary War, which has a number of miracles showing divine intervention by the Lord, most readers will learn something from it.

Indeed SLC should be classes as one of the most wicked cities. SLC has the 7th highest per capita population of LGBT in the US at 4.7%. Welcome to Sodom!

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A Random Phrase
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Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by A Random Phrase »

Salt Lake is very wicked. It has been for some time now - long before there was any lgbt making a lot of noise.

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oneClimbs
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Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by oneClimbs »

I agree with Kirtland RM on this one. I've posted about my thoughts on it:
http://oneclimbs.com/2012/07/29/the-test-has-begun/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I also found an interesting link to the test (which might be three tests) in Avarham Gileadi's work:
http://oneclimbs.com/2013/01/20/the-thr ... must-pass/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by jwharton »

Apparently there are at least 3 tests he had in mind?

If so, what ere they?

This was given in 1868, so was there actually at least one test that affected the Saints in general in that proximity of time?

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oneClimbs
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Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by oneClimbs »

jwharton wrote:Apparently there are at least 3 tests he had in mind?

If so, what ere they?

This was given in 1868, so was there actually at least one test that affected the Saints in general in that proximity of time?
Well, we don't really know what he had in mind. What's interesting is that Hinckley said in a 1974 and a 1990 talk, "I do not know precisely the nature of that test. But I am inclined to think the time is here and that the test lies in our capacity to live the gospel rather than adopt the ways of the world." Hinckley spoke of the test in the singular, so we don't know that there are three but I wondered if there were three after I came across some information.

I was reading through one of Avraham Gileadi's books (as I mentioned in the second reference and detailed the information) where he spoke of three tests that Latter-day Israel must pass according to Isaiah. What's interesting to me is that when I asked Bro. Gileadi if he had the Heber C. Kimball in mind when he wrote that section, he said that he had not made that connection.

You can check out the two articles I posted that have some good information, but in case you don't, I'll sum up the three tests Gileadi noted from Isaiah:

Test 1 – Allegiance to the Archtyrant
“Will Israel give her allegiance to him or to her God? If she gives her allegiance to the king of Assyria, she will enjoy temporary benefits but suffer an everlasting loss. If she gives her allegiance to God, there will be temporary challenges but God will deliver her and bless her forever.” (p.27)

Test 2 – Material Pleasures: Idolatry
“Will Israel worship things made by human hands, or will she worship God, her Maker? If she worships idols, she will find that focusing on material pleasures causes spiritual blindness, and in the end she will come away empty-handed. But if she worships God and serves him, he promises to bless her now and always. That is the only way she can come to know God. She has only to put that to the test” (p.27-28).

Test 3 – False Religious and Political Leaders
“Will Israel yield to pressure from evil authorities, or will she trust in God and wait for his deliverance? If she sides with religious and political leaders who persecute the followers of righteousness, then she herself will not come under attack. But by taking that course she will cut herself off from God’s people. On the other hand, if she aligns herself with God and willingly suffers persecution because she bears his name, then God will ultimately deliver her from shame. He will exalt her as his spouse in the sight of all peoples.” (p.28)

Hinckley believed that the time of that prophecy is HERE, so Kirtland RM is in good company on that. Gileadi's references to three tests that arose from his study of Isaiah and without consideration of the Kimball prophecy are worth noting. When you look at the three tests, and the fact that they are drawn from Isaiah and the Book of Mormon tells us to study Isaiah, those 3 tests seem like pretty solid candidates.

Anyway, just something to think about.

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AI2.0
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Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by AI2.0 »

francisco.colaco wrote:Onsdag,

Actually, Kirtland RM did add an important piece of information, and that should start a discussion, being important: Kirtland believes the test which was mentioned by Elder Kimball is now taking place. That alone deserves a new thread.

I read from Samizdat that he believed in June 2012 that the first countdown of 42 months enunciated in Revelation had started. I do not know if Samizdat still agrees with what he wrote before, but I emphatically do. We are starting the very last semester of such countdown, if I am correct.

I think things will fall fast enough.
But what did he add to the discussion other than to make one of his 'pronouncements' with nothing to back it up. As far as I can tell for what he posted, Heber C. Kimball never said what the 'test' was, and I didn't see anything in kirtland's op that said what he was identifying as the 'test' which he believes has 'begun'. Did I miss something?

Then others muddied the waters by referring to others, such as Avraham Gileadi and his 'tests' which he claimed were not connected to Brother Kimball's 'test'. It's no wonder this thread went nowhere when it was started several months ago.

Maybe I'm just too picky, but it seems lacking....

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Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by jwharton »

How about the TEST that came in 1890?
At least that would have been in proximity to when the warning was given.

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Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by jwharton »

I recently started a thread that talks about this test actually being the advent of the Son of Man.

viewtopic.php?p=766512#p766487" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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oneClimbs
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Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by oneClimbs »

AI2.0 wrote:Then others muddied the waters by referring to others, such as Avraham Gileadi and his 'tests' which he claimed were not connected to Brother Kimball's 'test'. It's no wonder this thread went nowhere when it was started several months ago.

Maybe I'm just too picky, but it seems lacking....
Just to be clear, Gileadi didn't say that the tests he wrote about were not connected to Kimball's prophecy. He said that he hadn't specifically made that connection when he wrote about them. I was wondering if what he wrote was influenced by Kimball's prophecy. I observed a similarity between the two and shared my thoughts, then commented again when jwharton wondered what those tests might be.

As you stated, the original post is claiming the test has begun. Certain events happen and then the test comes. Kirtland RM doesn't expound upon them, and perhaps he provides a large portion of the sermon because some of it seems self-evident.

It appears that there are four periods of time referenced in this prophecy. I could be wrong here so feel free to correct me but here's what I see.

The first period is characterized by two key events:

1. An army of Elders will be sent to the four quarters of the earth (tens of thousands of missionaries are currently serving on every civilized continent).
2. All kinds of religions will be started and miracles performed (we do have quite a few now).

The next period is indicated by the phrase "after a while" so that a certain amount of time passes from the previous period and includes the following events:

1. After a while the Gentiles will gather by the thousands to this place, and Salt Lake City will be classed among the wicked cities of the world. (There are millions of Gentiles now, and I'm not sure it's among the most wicked of cities quite yet but that's debatable.)
2. A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of the Saints, and the results will be financial bondage. (To some degree.)

What happens next could all be included in the fourth period, or at least parts of it - difficult to tell. It looks like the third because it says "Persecution comes next" but half of those things could possibly be happening now and others have not yet happened. First, here they are.

1. Persecution comes next and all true Latter-day Saints will be tested to the limit. (Many degrees of persecution, and tested how? To what limit?)
2. Many will apostatize and others will be still not knowing what to do. (This is right on.)
3. Darkness will cover the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people. (You could say that this is now.)
4. The judgments of God will be poured out on the wicked to the extent that our Elders from far and near will be called home, or in other words the gospel will be taken from the Gentiles and later on carried to the Jews. (This hasn't happened yet)
5.The western boundary of the State of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that as President Young tells us, when you return to that place, there will not be left so much as a yellow dog to wag his tail. (This hasn't happened yet either.)

The next paragraph begins like this:

1. Before that day comes, however, the Saints will be put to a test that will try the integrity of the best of them.
2. The pressure will become so great that the more righteous among them will cry unto the Lord day and night until deliverance comes.

So this test comes before "that day" which is something mentioned previously. The test is actually the third period and not the fourth. What is "that day" though, it is grouping all of the persecution, judgements, and the wiping out of western Missouri or it is just talking about the part that mentions Missouri? The gospel has not yet been taken to the Gentiles, the Elders have not been called home, but the first three things may be in progress, but perhaps not to their worst extents. That's why I'm wondering if "that day" is everything after "Persecution comes next" and ending with the Missouri section.

This would mean that the order of events would look something like:

1. Army of Elders and all kinds of religions.
2. Gentles gather to mountains, speculation and extravagance among Saints and financial bondage.
3. Test begins and pressure mounts, the righteous cry unto God.
4. Judgments pour out (perhaps in response to these cries?) Elders called home, gospel taken to Jews, western Missouri swept clean.

Hinckley said in 1974 that he believes that this test is upon us and I think that this is entirely plausible. That would mean that we know what is coming next: Persecution, and it isn't hard to see how that will unfold.

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LDS Physician
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Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by LDS Physician »

5tev3 wrote:
AI2.0 wrote: Hinckley said in 1974 that he believes that this test is upon us and I think that this is entirely plausible. That would mean that we know what is coming next: Persecution, and it isn't hard to see how that will unfold.
Actually it is difficult for me to see how that will unfold. In what way will this persecution unfold? Will the government turn against religion in our country? Will it persecute religion and those who follow it? Will this persecution be legislated or ratified by the Supreme Court? Will the government create a "mark" without which you cannot buy and sell and when those who believe refuse to participate are then persecuted...is this what it's referring to?

It's very difficult for me to think of persecution in our relatively free nation. I'm sure it's my own limitations and lack of experience in regards to persecution.

Mind you, I completely believe that it will occur, but I just can't see how it will unfold. I can't imagine the circumstances which would test my faith or resolve to stick with the brethren.

Older/wiser?
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Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by Older/wiser? »

LDS Physician wrote:
5tev3 wrote:
AI2.0 wrote: Hinckley said in 1974 that he believes that this test is upon us and I think that this is entirely plausible. That would mean that we know what is coming next: Persecution, and it isn't hard to see how that will unfold.
Actually it is difficult for me to see how that will unfold. In what way will this persecution unfold? Will the government turn against religion in our country? Will it persecute religion and those who follow it? Will this persecution be legislated or ratified by the Supreme Court? Will the government create a "mark" without which you cannot buy and sell and when those who believe refuse to participate are then persecuted...is this what it's referring to?

It's very difficult for me to think of persecution in our relatively free nation. I'm sure it's my own limitations and lack of experience in regards to persecution.

Mind you, I completely believe that it will occur, but I just can't see how it will unfold. I can't imagine the circumstances which would test my faith or resolve to stick with the brethren.
The "Test" today seems to be if we can just be faithful and hold to the rod, how many seek strange paths, those that have made covenants, families are becoming divided, separated, people question beliefs, the church, whether we are in apostasy, the division is widening and like history starts from within amongst our own. Our persecutors among those that "can leave it but can't leave it alone", government would need a push, say economic crisis on such a broad scale ,food resources cut off, we are the only religion that has had a policy of food storage, could that be considered hoarding, needed to be taken and redistributed. War could do that, economic policy changes, rationing. The Lords plan is agency , the other is control, I can see bondage coming for those who don't take action in the admonition of our prophets and there counsel. I can imagine circumstances that would test all our faith and all our resolve, reinstatement of polygamy, law of consecration ,. Those are just a few extreme examples ,or maybe the test is simple, love your neighbor, forgive a wayward child, just to be like Christ in all that you do, that's a real Test.

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Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by LDS Physician »

Older/wiser? wrote:
LDS Physician wrote:
5tev3 wrote:
AI2.0 wrote: Hinckley said in 1974 that he believes that this test is upon us and I think that this is entirely plausible. That would mean that we know what is coming next: Persecution, and it isn't hard to see how that will unfold.
Actually it is difficult for me to see how that will unfold. In what way will this persecution unfold? Will the government turn against religion in our country? Will it persecute religion and those who follow it? Will this persecution be legislated or ratified by the Supreme Court? Will the government create a "mark" without which you cannot buy and sell and when those who believe refuse to participate are then persecuted...is this what it's referring to?

It's very difficult for me to think of persecution in our relatively free nation. I'm sure it's my own limitations and lack of experience in regards to persecution.

Mind you, I completely believe that it will occur, but I just can't see how it will unfold. I can't imagine the circumstances which would test my faith or resolve to stick with the brethren.
The "Test" today seems to be if we can just be faithful and hold to the rod, how many seek strange paths, those that have made covenants, families are becoming divided, separated, people question beliefs, the church, whether we are in apostasy, the division is widening and like history starts from within amongst our own. Our persecutors among those that "can leave it but can't leave it alone", government would need a push, say economic crisis on such a broad scale ,food resources cut off, we are the only religion that has had a policy of food storage, could that be considered hoarding, needed to be taken and redistributed. War could do that, economic policy changes, rationing. The Lords plan is agency , the other is control, I can see bondage coming for those who don't take action in the admonition of our prophets and there counsel. I can imagine circumstances that would test all our faith and all our resolve, reinstatement of polygamy, law of consecration ,. Those are just a few extreme examples ,or maybe the test is simple, love your neighbor, forgive a wayward child, just to be like Christ in all that you do, that's a real Test.
I see what you're saying. However, the test being referred to in this thread probably isn't "love your neighbor, forgive a wayward child, just to be like Christ in all that you do" because that test doesn't result in a major culling of the church or deceive even the very elect. I think the test that is coming will do just that: cull the church as described and leave the remaining faithful at least for a time wondering what they should do next...

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Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by EmmaLee »

Agree completely. ^^ This will be unlike anything the latter-day Church has seen or experienced before.

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Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by jwharton »

EmmaLee wrote:Agree completely. ^^ This will be unlike anything the latter-day Church has seen or experienced before.
Unless of course there already was such a test and we inherited either the right or the wrong answer already.
We already have well over a century under our belt, so to speak, from when that warning was given.

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Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by EmmaLee »

President Ezra Taft Benson said in 1974: "There is a real sifting going on in the Church, and it is going to become more pronounced with the passing of time. It will sift the wheat from the tares, because we face some difficult days, the like of which we have never experienced in our lives. And those days are going to require faith and testimony and family unity, the like of which we have never had." (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 107.)

I say unto you with all the soberness I can, that we stand in danger of losing our
liberties, and that once lost, only blood will bring them back; and once lost, we of
this Church will, in order to keep the Church going forward, have more sacrifices
to make and more persecutions to endure than we have yet known
, heavy as our
sacrifices and grievous as our persecutions of the past have been.
-President J. Reuben Clark, Conference Report 1966

The way ahead is dark and dreary and dreadful. There will yet be martyrs; the doors in Carthage shall again enclose the innocent. We have not been promised that the trials and evils of the world will entirely pass us by.
Author: Bruce R. McConkie, Source: "The Coming Tests and Trials and Glory," 1980

Neal A. Maxwell "Notwithstanding My Weakness" pg.18
"Though we have rightly applauded our ancestors for their spiritual achievements (and do not and must not discount them now), those of us who prevail today will have done no small thing. The special spirits who have been reserved to live in this time of challenges and who overcome will one day be praised for their stamina by those who pulled handcarts."

Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 17:289-306.
“It seems then that this people, at some future time in their sojourn here in this land, may possibly be in bondage greater then they are at the present time. I try to hope for the best, and to think that the bondage we are in and have been in for years, in consequence of the efforts of those who are striving to take away our rights as American citizens, and to trample us down in the dust; I say I have been in hopes that that would be all the bondage that was meant here in this prophecy, but I do not know but what there may be a greater signification to these words. I do not know what the purposes of the Lord are in relation to this particular thing. It may be that we shall have our rights completely taken from us; it may be, if we do not live sufficiently faithful before the Lord that he will yet bring us into still greater tribulation than that which we have hitherto had. It may be that we shall yet be in bondage like the Israelites in the land of Egypt; for the Lord has said that, when this man should be raised up, he would redeem his people by power out of bondage, and they should be led as their fathers were led at the first.

Improvement Era 1940
There will not many calamities come upon the nations of the earth until this people first feel their effects, and when hard times commence they will begin at the House of God . . . where the people have assembled together according to the commandments of the Almighty. We have got to feel the effects of these things, and if we do so patiently it will be good for us.

Lorenzo Snow, The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, edited by Clyde J. Williams, p.151
The spirit of speculation will affect the Saints in the last days. I remember very clearly the troublous times which were experienced in Kirtland some fifty-three years ago. At that time a spirit of speculation pervaded the minds of the people of this nation. There were money speculations, bank speculations, speculations in lands, speculations in city lots, speculations in numerous other directions. That spirit of speculation rose out of the world, and swept over the hearts of the Saints like a mighty wave or rushing torrent, and many fell, and apostatized. Singular as it may appear, this spirit of speculation pervaded the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the Quorum of the Seven Presidents of Seventies; indeed, there was not a quorum in the Church but was more or less touched with this spirit of speculation. As that spirit increased, disunion followed. Brethren and sisters began to slander and quarrel one with the other, because their interests were not in harmony.

Brigham Young JD 5:339
“If we live, we shall see the nations of the earth arrayed against this people; for that time must come in fulfillment of prophecy. Tell about war commencing!…from that time till now the wicked have only fallen back at times to gain strength and learn how to attack the Kingdom of God.”

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Mark
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Posts: 6929

Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by Mark »

LDS Physician wrote:
Older/wiser? wrote:
LDS Physician wrote:
5tev3 wrote:
Actually it is difficult for me to see how that will unfold. In what way will this persecution unfold? Will the government turn against religion in our country? Will it persecute religion and those who follow it? Will this persecution be legislated or ratified by the Supreme Court? Will the government create a "mark" without which you cannot buy and sell and when those who believe refuse to participate are then persecuted...is this what it's referring to?

It's very difficult for me to think of persecution in our relatively free nation. I'm sure it's my own limitations and lack of experience in regards to persecution.

Mind you, I completely believe that it will occur, but I just can't see how it will unfold. I can't imagine the circumstances which would test my faith or resolve to stick with the brethren.
The "Test" today seems to be if we can just be faithful and hold to the rod, how many seek strange paths, those that have made covenants, families are becoming divided, separated, people question beliefs, the church, whether we are in apostasy, the division is widening and like history starts from within amongst our own. Our persecutors among those that "can leave it but can't leave it alone", government would need a push, say economic crisis on such a broad scale ,food resources cut off, we are the only religion that has had a policy of food storage, could that be considered hoarding, needed to be taken and redistributed. War could do that, economic policy changes, rationing. The Lords plan is agency , the other is control, I can see bondage coming for those who don't take action in the admonition of our prophets and there counsel. I can imagine circumstances that would test all our faith and all our resolve, reinstatement of polygamy, law of consecration ,. Those are just a few extreme examples ,or maybe the test is simple, love your neighbor, forgive a wayward child, just to be like Christ in all that you do, that's a real Test.
I see what you're saying. However, the test being referred to in this thread probably isn't "love your neighbor, forgive a wayward child, just to be like Christ in all that you do" because that test doesn't result in a major culling of the church or deceive even the very elect. I think the test that is coming will do just that: cull the church as described and leave the remaining faithful at least for a time wondering what they should do next...

Having just reread John Pontius book Following the light of Christ into his presence I think this test referred to here is, as they say, hidden in plain sight. It is a test of complete obedience to spiritual promptings every one of us receive each day of our lives from the light of the world. All 10 virgins were active temple committed endowed members. Half did not take the Holy Spirit the be their guide (every day of their lives) but became distracted with the cares and enticements of the world and allowed any number of those things to damn their spiritual transformation process. How many have experienced that spiritual change of heart spoken of by so many of the Lords servants? And As Alma once said can we feel so now?

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormo ... al-rebirth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

brianj
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4066
Location: Vineyard, Utah

Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by brianj »

LDS Physician wrote:
5tev3 wrote:
AI2.0 wrote: Hinckley said in 1974 that he believes that this test is upon us and I think that this is entirely plausible. That would mean that we know what is coming next: Persecution, and it isn't hard to see how that will unfold.
Actually it is difficult for me to see how that will unfold. In what way will this persecution unfold? Will the government turn against religion in our country? Will it persecute religion and those who follow it? Will this persecution be legislated or ratified by the Supreme Court? Will the government create a "mark" without which you cannot buy and sell and when those who believe refuse to participate are then persecuted...is this what it's referring to?

It's very difficult for me to think of persecution in our relatively free nation. I'm sure it's my own limitations and lack of experience in regards to persecution.

Mind you, I completely believe that it will occur, but I just can't see how it will unfold. I can't imagine the circumstances which would test my faith or resolve to stick with the brethren.
It seems easy to anticipate how it will unfold. Persecution is already happening. In late 2008 the church and its members were targeted by advocates for immorality because the church supported Proposition 8. Enemies of righteousness acquired a list of donors to the group supporting that proposition then released the names, accusing them of being bigots and calling for acts of discrimination against supporters. The CEO of Mozilla was forced out of his job because he had donated in support of Prop 8. More recently, after President Trump was elected at least one executive told his employees that anybody who supported Trump was not welcome to continue as employees. I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing greater discrimination in employment and elsewhere towards people who don't express an active support for far left causes.

We see an increasing level of intolerance for righteousness in the country today. Freedom of speech no longer exists on university campuses because anybody who doesn't toe the line is forced out. Recent events on the UC Berkley campus demonstrate this. Fascists claiming to oppose fascism held a riot and physically attacked people who disagreed with them over a planned speech by a conservative.

I can't comprehend why any Latter-day Saint supported Hillary Clinton after she said that Christians would have to change their beliefs. She is one of many who has said that freedom of religion is the right to think what you want but not to act as you believe you should, then she said that even those beliefs need to be censored. In time we will see the modern Gaddianton robbers in government enact laws to prohibit our beliefs and practices, then we'll be prosecuted as well as persecuted.

Regarding the mark that will one day be required to buy and sell, I think this will be one of the last acts of persecution.

Older/wiser?
captain of 100
Posts: 538

Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by Older/wiser? »

It's not that I don't believe there will be a great culling of the church , in the final trial I absolutely do think there will be, but I also believe test come in stages, for and individual and for the Church as a whole , look at what we are seeing now ,saints falling faster than ever before. I saw a statistic in another thread 30% pay tithing? What has happened to us, where is the majority standing , and is it not crucial for us to stay the judgments of the Lord, ( I recall brother Brigham saying so) filling our lamps with oil , the ones I see falling are those who were casual with their testimonies, maybe to busy enjoying the blessings of prosperity, (and didn't Brigham say that is what he feared most as a trial for this people) I see the spiritual fulfillment of this , and by the time we see the physical fulfillment it is to late The line will be drawn , the time to fill your lamps for that test started along time ago. imho

Spider
captain of 100
Posts: 242

Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by Spider »

brianj wrote:
LDS Physician wrote:
5tev3 wrote:
AI2.0 wrote: Hinckley said in 1974 that he believes that this test is upon us and I think that this is entirely plausible. That would mean that we know what is coming next: Persecution, and it isn't hard to see how that will unfold.
Actually it is difficult for me to see how that will unfold. In what way will this persecution unfold? Will the government turn against religion in our country? Will it persecute religion and those who follow it? Will this persecution be legislated or ratified by the Supreme Court? Will the government create a "mark" without which you cannot buy and sell and when those who believe refuse to participate are then persecuted...is this what it's referring to?

It's very difficult for me to think of persecution in our relatively free nation. I'm sure it's my own limitations and lack of experience in regards to persecution.

Mind you, I completely believe that it will occur, but I just can't see how it will unfold. I can't imagine the circumstances which would test my faith or resolve to stick with the brethren.
It seems easy to anticipate how it will unfold. Persecution is already happening. In late 2008 the church and its members were targeted by advocates for immorality because the church supported Proposition 8. Enemies of righteousness acquired a list of donors to the group supporting that proposition then released the names, accusing them of being bigots and calling for acts of discrimination against supporters. The CEO of Mozilla was forced out of his job because he had donated in support of Prop 8. More recently, after President Trump was elected at least one executive told his employees that anybody who supported Trump was not welcome to continue as employees. I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing greater discrimination in employment and elsewhere towards people who don't express an active support for far left causes.

We see an increasing level of intolerance for righteousness in the country today. Freedom of speech no longer exists on university campuses because anybody who doesn't toe the line is forced out. Recent events on the UC Berkley campus demonstrate this. Fascists claiming to oppose fascism held a riot and physically attacked people who disagreed with them over a planned speech by a conservative.

I can't comprehend why any Latter-day Saint supported Hillary Clinton after she said that Christians would have to change their beliefs. She is one of many who has said that freedom of religion is the right to think what you want but not to act as you believe you should, then she said that even those beliefs need to be censored. In time we will see the modern Gaddianton robbers in government enact laws to prohibit our beliefs and practices, then we'll be prosecuted as well as persecuted.

Regarding the mark that will one day be required to buy and sell, I think this will be one of the last acts of persecution.
I was one of those that fought for Prop 8 in California. The people against us were vile. They threw things at our families as we stood on corners with street signs. Others yelled vile things at us in front of our children. Some women lifted up their tops and exposed their breasts. Our signs were stollen every night. My house address was listed on a hit list for people to vandalize. Our children were tormented by their teachers at the schools and we feared their grades would suffer by their teachers punishing them. I'd say we were persecuted.

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AI2.0
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Posts: 3917

Re: The Test Heber C. Kimball Spoke Of Has Begun

Post by AI2.0 »

Spider wrote:
I was one of those that fought for Prop 8 in California. The people against us were vile. They threw things at our families as we stood on corners with street signs. Others yelled vile things at us in front of our children. Some women lifted up their tops and exposed their breasts. Our signs were stollen every night. My house address was listed on a hit list for people to vandalize. Our children were tormented by their teachers at the schools and we feared their grades would suffer by their teachers punishing them. I'd say we were persecuted.[/quote]

I'd call that persecution also. People lost their jobs for simply giving money to Prop 8 too. As we continue to refuse to allow gay marriage in our church, we will see persecution on a larger scale. There's always someone who's going after us and sometimes it is from within--I read people who claim to be members complaining about the City Creek Mall and GA's stipends. There's a group here in Salt Lake who is trying to get the church's tax exempt status rescinded. I wouldn't be surprised if many or all of them were former members of the church.

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