Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

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zionminded
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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by zionminded »

The LDS Church today is as dogmatic as it ever has been the past. In many ways, this culture swing is appropriate for the times we live given the mindset of our social-ecology. J.R. doesn't teach against the church, she actually supports what leaders have been saying. The problem arises that she's much more specific. I feel that the GA's aren't telling us what they know, while J.R. isn't as bridled. Can you imagine Thomas S Monson getting up in front of the church and saying that he's seen in vision that there will be an earthquake in the next couple years that will kill a hundred thousand people along the Wasatch front! Why, people would move away in spades and-or leave the church in drouths. Because J.R. doesn't hold a position of authority, she "gets away" with this... however, I can understand why some people would be more sensitive to the messenger, while the spirit testify's of the reality of the message.

Thomas
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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by Thomas »

zionminded wrote:The LDS Church today is as dogmatic as it ever has been the past. In many ways, this culture swing is appropriate for the times we live given the mindset of our social-ecology. J.R. doesn't teach against the church, she actually supports what leaders have been saying. The problem arises that she's much more specific. I feel that the GA's aren't telling us what they know, while J.R. isn't as bridled. Can you imagine Thomas S Monson getting up in front of the church and saying that he's seen in vision that there will be an earthquake in the next couple years that will kill a hundred thousand people along the Wasatch front! Why, people would move away in spades and-or leave the church in drouths. Because J.R. doesn't hold a position of authority, she "gets away" with this... however, I can understand why some people would be more sensitive to the messenger, while the spirit testify's of the reality of the message.
You mean give real prophecy? The majority reject true prophets and support false ones. They always have. That hasn't stopped them from giving prophecy though.

Thomas
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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by Thomas »

AI2.0 wrote:
The interesting thing about this presentation is that the same rationale would have condemned Lehi , John the Baptist ,Alma, Samuel the Lamanite , Joseph Smith and most importantly the Savior. All espoused " Gnostic doctrines" in contravention to that taught by the recognized popular religion . All were persecuted by accepted religious authorities. All were true messengers who were rejected by the entrenched religious institution of their day. I think her thesis is so flawed as to be an embarrassment . I wonder where she went to law school ?
But Lehi, John the Baptist, Samuel the Lamanite, Alma did not go about within the church and try to teach doctrines that rejected the church heirarchy.
Lehi was calling the people to repentence, along with the other prophets, they weren't telling them that their church was false. Samuel preached repentance and instead of rejecting the church leaders, the people who listened sought out Nephi, the recognized church authority to be baptized properly, under church authority. He didn't go out and tell them that their baptisms were being done wrong and their priesthood was not valid and their church rejected. He also didn't tell them that they had to see Christ in the flesh or they'd be damned or that some of them aren't really here to be tested, that's just other people who have to go through that. These are clearly what we'd call 'gnostic' teachings.

John the Baptist was a levite and had the proper, recognized church authority to baptize and Jesus sought him out. They were both critical of the Jewish leaders who were hypocrites, but Jesus WAS actually restoring the order to HIS CHURCH, so that isn't the same kind of situation. He turned it on it's head, so yes, he would be 'outside' the church authority.

But, if people go around preaching that the LDS church is rejected or that it has changed all it's doctrines and lost it's way, that is APOSTASY and it cannot be ignored. People who go around saying that are undermining the church's mission and obstructing the building of the kingdom. It must be dealt with and when they are called on it and told they are in the wrong and need to repent, and they refuse, there is no choice but excommunication, for the sake of the church.

This kind of apostasy happened after Jesus' ascension and the apostles started to die off. Early church members like Simon Magus, Nicolas of Antioch and Marcion started to preach variations on doctrinces, often saying that these things were taught by Jesus privately or known by the Apostles, but lost to the rank and file members. They gathered their own followings of members who believed what they were saying and with the situations of the early church, this brought about the apostasy.

The same 'rationale' that the writer describes, destroyed the truth claims of the church Christ set up. She ought to condemn it, we all ought to condemn it if we care about the survival of the restored, true church. We are told we live in 'perilous times' and part of that is the level of deception that will take good, even if possible, some of the 'elect' from the church, and to me, there is no doubt, we are seeing that happen today.

I'm going to speak frankly on this subject. Some of you fight common sense and rational arguments regarding this topic because YOU sympathize/align yourselves with the Simon Magus's and the Nicolas of Antioch's of our day. They are doing the same thing to our church today. That is why the writer has called these movements a form of modern gnosticism--Because they are!!
Lehi was outside the church hierarchy and yes there was a church in his time. Laban was out with the brethren of the church the night he was killed. Abinadi called the church to repentance and was killed by the church. John the Baptist and Christ called the church to repentance and were killed by the church. So was Isaiah. There is a pattern here.

zionminded
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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by zionminded »

Thomas wrote:
zionminded wrote:The LDS Church today is as dogmatic as it ever has been the past. In many ways, this culture swing is appropriate for the times we live given the mindset of our social-ecology. J.R. doesn't teach against the church, she actually supports what leaders have been saying. The problem arises that she's much more specific. I feel that the GA's aren't telling us what they know, while J.R. isn't as bridled. Can you imagine Thomas S Monson getting up in front of the church and saying that he's seen in vision that there will be an earthquake in the next couple years that will kill a hundred thousand people along the Wasatch front! Why, people would move away in spades and-or leave the church in drouths. Because J.R. doesn't hold a position of authority, she "gets away" with this... however, I can understand why some people would be more sensitive to the messenger, while the spirit testify's of the reality of the message.
You mean give real prophecy? The majority reject true prophets and support false ones. They always have. That hasn't stopped them from giving prophecy though.
Finding truth in JR doesn't require you reject church leaders.

boo
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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by boo »

Durangout and A12.0 in the first place I don't want to be confrontational and I doubt my comment will do you or anyone else any good. In addition I would not have responded but it appears to me that your comments are so wrongheaded to demand a response. As I read your words I can only think of Alexander Popes phrase in his Essay on Criticism " a little knowledge is a dangerous thing ,drink deep from the Pierian spring or not at all" .The virtually undisputed facts are that in times of religious transition institutional religious authorities always persecute true prophets because they are a threat to the perceived order of things. Everything I will write can be supported by existing scholarship but I am not home so will not take the time to provide citations unless you specifically request a particular one . It is an established tenet of Old Testament scholarship Jeremiah was persecuted and eventually killed by the religious powers of his day .Likewise read the articles published by the Interpreter ( BYU ) which argue that Lehi was threaten with death because of his resistance to Josiah's deuteronomic reforms , which reforms sought to end individual revelation and individual worship and place all such activity under the temple powers . John the Baptist baptized on the east side of the Jordan river to escape the power of the Second Temple cultic authority ( he didn't call them vipers for nothing). The Savior was crucified at the insistence of the High Priest and Sandhedin . Peter and John were beaten by order of the Sandedrin and instructed not to teach Christ anymore. The Book of Mormon shows the same thing . Joseph Smith experienced the same thing. Truly life is one eternal round. The reason these stories are in the scriptures is to help us recognize the parallels to our own day. I recognize this will fall on deaf ears. I recognize that you will accuse me of being an " apostate" but please at least acknowledge the similarity of these previous events to the present day when the institutional church faces declining membership , declining activity rates and has dramatically changed its doctrine during the 60 years I have been a member and when there are people who at last are claiming the very things that Moroni told Joseph would happen. We all ignore these similarities at our peril. You are welcome to post all the clever pictures you wish but you really should at least acknowledge the accuracy of the historical parallels.

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AI2.0
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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by AI2.0 »

boo wrote:Durangout and A12.0 in the first place I don't want to be confrontational and I doubt my comment will do you or anyone else any good. In addition I would not have responded but it appears to me that your comments are so wrongheaded to demand a response. As I read your words I can only think of Alexander Popes phrase in his Essay on Criticism " a little knowledge is a dangerous thing ,drink deep from the Pierian spring or not at all" .The virtually undisputed facts are that in times of religious transition institutional religious authorities always persecute true prophets because they are a threat to the perceived order of things. Everything I will write can be supported by existing scholarship but I am not home so will not take the time to provide citations unless you specifically request a particular one . It is an established tenet of Old Testament scholarship Jeremiah was persecuted and eventually killed by the religious powers of his day .Likewise read the articles published by the Interpreter ( BYU ) which argue that Lehi was threaten with death because of his resistance to Josiah's deuteronomic reforms , which reforms sought to end individual revelation and individual worship and place all such activity under the temple powers . John the Baptist baptized on the east side of the Jordan river to escape the power of the Second Temple cultic authority ( he didn't call them vipers for nothing). The Savior was crucified at the insistence of the High Priest and Sandhedin . Peter and John were beaten by order of the Sandedrin and instructed not to teach Christ anymore. The Book of Mormon shows the same thing . Joseph Smith experienced the same thing. Truly life is one eternal round. The reason these stories are in the scriptures is to help us recognize the parallels to our own day. I recognize this will fall on deaf ears. I recognize that you will accuse me of being an " apostate" but please at least acknowledge the similarity of these previous events to the present day when the institutional church faces declining membership , declining activity rates and has dramatically changed its doctrine during the 60 years I have been a member and when there are people who at last are claiming the very things that Moroni told Joseph would happen. We all ignore these similarities at our peril. You are welcome to post all the clever pictures you wish but you really should at least acknowledge the accuracy of the historical parallels.
I'm not so ignorant that I'm not familiar with the examples you gave. You are absolutely right; Jeremiah was persecuted and his message was very unpopular, so was Lehi--he lived in a time when other prophets had been killed and his life was in danger also. All of the examples you gave are correct and did indeed follow a pattern of those in power persecuting those who threatened that power.

But, that is not a sound basis to judge whether or not someone who claims to be a prophet actually IS one. There are many who've claimed to speak for God and have called the LDS church to repentence, but they were NOT true Prophets. Chris Nemelka, Ervil LeBaron, Warren Jeffs, Jim Harmston, to name just a couple and the list is long. And like Jeremiah, Lehi and Abinadi (who were true Prophets) they also experienced rejection and condemnation by LDS church leaders. Regardless, they are still false prophets. One needs to be careful what criteria they use to determine who are and are not 'true' messengers from God.

I disagree that the church is facing declining membership and declining activity rates--they may be in some areas, but not all and I don't trust your sources--your sources have an axe to grind. You listen to naysayers and critics and those who've rejected the LDS church.

I also disagree that the church has changed its doctrine. The church is led by continuing divine revelation through a Prophet of God. The church will either display this fact and change and be fluid OR it will stay stagnant and NOT be a church that is led continually by modern revelation. The problem is you don't like the changes and so you sympathize with those who criticize the church for the fact that it changes. This is not new, this is what fundamentalism appeals to, those who don't want any changes, but this simply is NOT the LDS church.

This is the danger of our day, Satan is deceiving many and encouraging, if possible, even the very elect to leave the church.

boo
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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by boo »

A12. Thanks for your thoughts. With respect to church growth and attendance rates I agree that it is difficult to know exactly what is going on because those who have the data refuse to share it with those whose tithing paid to gather it. I also agree that their are many false prophets and christs abroad in the land. In addition to following the spirit ( most important) you might read Hugh B Browns talk " Profile of a Prophet" for consideration of appropriate criteria . Incidentally I had the privileged of being in his presence when he ,as a member of the First Presidency, prophesied " in the name of the Lord" something so fantastic than none of those who heard him believed him but I have lived to see it happened 20 years later exactly as he said it would. The issue of changed doctrine or tenets and practices that are contrary to the revelations of God we can leave for anther day if you have any interest. But I can show you unequivocally how tenets taught in GC are directly at odds with the scriptures as revealed to Joseph as are some of our practices of our most sacred sacraments. However if you believe that the handbook can change the revelations of God w/o those nameless editors in the bowels of the COB ever even claiming any revelation about the issue or you believe speakers in GC take priority over the canonized revelations of God my demonstration probably will just be dismissed by you out of hand. Let me know and have a nice holiday.

brianj
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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by brianj »

Boo - what prophecy of Hugh B Brown are you referring to in your most recent post?

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AI2.0
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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by AI2.0 »

boo wrote:A12. Thanks for your thoughts. With respect to church growth and attendance rates I agree that it is difficult to know exactly what is going on because those who have the data refuse to share it with those whose tithing paid to gather it. I also agree that their are many false prophets and christs abroad in the land. In addition to following the spirit ( most important) you might read Hugh B Browns talk " Profile of a Prophet" for consideration of appropriate criteria . Incidentally I had the privileged of being in his presence when he ,as a member of the First Presidency, prophesied " in the name of the Lord" something so fantastic than none of those who heard him believed him but I have lived to see it happened 20 years later exactly as he said it would. The issue of changed doctrine or tenets and practices that are contrary to the revelations of God we can leave for anther day if you have any interest. But I can show you unequivocally how tenets taught in GC are directly at odds with the scriptures as revealed to Joseph as are some of our practices of our most sacred sacraments. However if you believe that the handbook can change the revelations of God w/o those nameless editors in the bowels of the COB ever even claiming any revelation about the issue or you believe speakers in GC take priority over the canonized revelations of God my demonstration probably will just be dismissed by you out of hand. Let me know and have a nice holiday.
I'm sure you are familiar with this incident;
"Wilford Woodruff, the fourth President of the Church, reported: “I will refer to a certain meeting I attended in the town of Kirtland in my early days. At that meeting some remarks were made … with regard to the living oracles and with regard to the written word of God. … A leading man in the Church got up and talked upon the subject, and said: ‘You have got the word of God before you here in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants; you have the written word of God, and you who give revelations should give revelations according to those books, as what is written in those books is the word of God. We should confine ourselves to them.’

“When he concluded, Brother Joseph turned to Brother Brigham Young and said, ‘Brother Brigham, I want you to take the stand and tell us your views with regard to the living oracles and the written word of God.’ Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said: ‘There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now,’ said he, ‘when compared with the [living] oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books.’ That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: ‘Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth.’
If the scriptures are more important than the divine guidance of a living prophet at the head of the church, then what makes the LDS church any different from any other church? Nothing. We might as well not have a Prophet, because it IS that we have a living Prophet and his guidance takes precedent and can bring change, just as Brigham Young taught and Joseph approved.

You will characterize this aspect of the church how you see fit and clearly you are unhappy with many things that have happened; they are negative in your view. To some of us the changes are positive and inspired. TCofJCofLDS has a living Prophet at the head of the church and he will make changes as he is guided to, which means change and you either believe he is inspired by God or not. Those who don't like the changes will most likely question the truth claims of the church.

But I appreciate you sharing your thoughts as well and I will look up Pres. Brown's talk.

Thomas
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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by Thomas »

AI2.0 wrote:
boo wrote:A12. Thanks for your thoughts. With respect to church growth and attendance rates I agree that it is difficult to know exactly what is going on because those who have the data refuse to share it with those whose tithing paid to gather it. I also agree that their are many false prophets and christs abroad in the land. In addition to following the spirit ( most important) you might read Hugh B Browns talk " Profile of a Prophet" for consideration of appropriate criteria . Incidentally I had the privileged of being in his presence when he ,as a member of the First Presidency, prophesied " in the name of the Lord" something so fantastic than none of those who heard him believed him but I have lived to see it happened 20 years later exactly as he said it would. The issue of changed doctrine or tenets and practices that are contrary to the revelations of God we can leave for anther day if you have any interest. But I can show you unequivocally how tenets taught in GC are directly at odds with the scriptures as revealed to Joseph as are some of our practices of our most sacred sacraments. However if you believe that the handbook can change the revelations of God w/o those nameless editors in the bowels of the COB ever even claiming any revelation about the issue or you believe speakers in GC take priority over the canonized revelations of God my demonstration probably will just be dismissed by you out of hand. Let me know and have a nice holiday.
I'm sure you are familiar with this incident;
"Wilford Woodruff, the fourth President of the Church, reported: “I will refer to a certain meeting I attended in the town of Kirtland in my early days. At that meeting some remarks were made … with regard to the living oracles and with regard to the written word of God. … A leading man in the Church got up and talked upon the subject, and said: ‘You have got the word of God before you here in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants; you have the written word of God, and you who give revelations should give revelations according to those books, as what is written in those books is the word of God. We should confine ourselves to them.’

“When he concluded, Brother Joseph turned to Brother Brigham Young and said, ‘Brother Brigham, I want you to take the stand and tell us your views with regard to the living oracles and the written word of God.’ Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said: ‘There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now,’ said he, ‘when compared with the [living] oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books.’ That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: ‘Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth.’
If the scriptures are more important than the divine guidance of a living prophet at the head of the church, then what makes the LDS church any different from any other church? Nothing. We might as well not have a Prophet, because it IS that we have a living Prophet and his guidance takes precedent and can bring change, just as Brigham Young taught and Joseph approved.

You will characterize this aspect of the church how you see fit and clearly you are unhappy with many things that have happened; they are negative in your view. To some of us the changes are positive and inspired. TCofJCofLDS has a living Prophet at the head of the church and he will make changes as he is guided to, which means change and you either believe he is inspired by God or not. Those who don't like the changes will most likely question the truth claims of the church.

But I appreciate you sharing your thoughts as well and I will look up Pres. Brown's talk.
Here is a perfect example of how the doctrine has changed. Past leaders have told us, we must use the scriptures to judge whether what we are taught is true or not.
"I say we need to teach our people to find their answers in the scriptures. If only each of us would be wise enough to say that we aren't able to answer any question unless we can find a doctrinal answer in the scriptures! And if we hear someone teaching something that is contrary to what is in the scriptures, each of us may know whether the things spoken are false -it is as simple as that. But the unfortunate thing is that so many of us are not reading the scriptures. We do not know what is in them, and therefore we speculate about the things that we ought to have found in the scriptures themselves. I think therein is one of our biggest dangers of today."

"The Lord has given us in the standard works the means by which we should measure truth and untruth. May we all heed His word: 'Thou shalt take the things which thou hast received, which have been given unto thee in my scriptures for a law, to be my law to govern my church.' " D&C 42:59 (First Presidency Message, Ensign, December 1972.)
It is by the scriptures we judge every man's doctrine. we don't judge the scriptures by the leader's words.
“It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teaching of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine.


You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works.
If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it.”
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., edited by Bruce R. McConkie [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-1956], 3: 203.)
God does not reveal his word than change it.

rdhill
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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by rdhill »

I just edited / deleted this post because my husband emailed me and said he posted it under my account. Unfortunately it's already being quoted in subsequent comments, so it's perpetuating thoughts I did not share.

I actually stopped frequenting this forum because I found it to be generally too contentious. I can see now I should have deleted / closed my account.
Last edited by rdhill on May 25th, 2016, 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rdhill
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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by rdhill »

I just edited / deleted this post because my husband emailed me and said he posted it under my account. Unfortunately it's already being quoted in subsequent comments, so it's perpetuating thoughts I did not share.

I actually stopped frequenting this forum because I found it to be generally too contentious. I can see now I should have deleted / closed my account.
Last edited by rdhill on May 25th, 2016, 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

zionminded
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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by zionminded »

I was asked to remove this thread.
Last edited by zionminded on May 25th, 2016, 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Summerwind
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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by Summerwind »

zionminded wrote:
rdhill wrote:
zionminded wrote:The LDS Church today is as dogmatic as it ever has been the past. In many ways, this culture swing is appropriate for the times we live given the mindset of our social-ecology. J.R. doesn't teach against the church, she actually supports what leaders have been saying. The problem arises that she's much more specific. I feel that the GA's aren't telling us what they know, while J.R. isn't as bridled. Can you imagine Thomas S Monson getting up in front of the church and saying that he's seen in vision that there will be an earthquake in the next couple years that will kill a hundred thousand people along the Wasatch front! Why, people would move away in spades and-or leave the church in drouths. Because J.R. doesn't hold a position of authority, she "gets away" with this... however, I can understand why some people would be more sensitive to the messenger, while the spirit testify's of the reality of the message.
Except for one problem. Here's a great quote from one of those prophets who are "bridled" with what they can and can't say (tell that to Abinadi, Samuel, Nephi, or the Savior Himself).

Harold B. Lee: Ensign, Jan. 1973 https://www.lds.org/ensign/1973/01/admo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... d?lang=eng
"There are among us many loose writings predicting the calamities which are about to overtake us. Some of these have been publicized as though they were necessary to wake up the world to the horrors about to overtake us. Many of these are from sources upon which there cannot be unquestioned reliance.
Are you priesthood bearers aware of the fact that we need no such publications to be forewarned, if we were only conversant with what the scriptures have already spoken to us in plainness?"

Joseph Fielding Smith also said: "If a man comes among the Latter-day Saints, professing to have received a vision or a revelation or a remarkable dream, and the Lord has given him such, he should keep it to himself. It is all out of order, in this Church, for somebody to invite him into a sacrament service (My addition: or a devotional or fireside) to relate that to the Church, because the Lord will give his revelations in the proper way, to the one who is appointed to receive and dispense the word of God to the members of the Church. . . .
Now, these stories of revelation, that are being circulated around, are of no consequence, except for rumor and silly talk by persons who have no authority….When you know God's truth, when you enter into God's rest, you will not be hunting after revelations from Tom, Dick and Harry (or Julie or Hector, etc.) all over the world. You will not be following the will-o'-the-wisp of the vagaries of men and women who advance nonsense and their own ideas. " (Conference Report (April 1938), 65–67.)

Does that sum up what the problem is for you? ;-)
I think "keeping it to ones self" is exactly what the adversary wants. It creates a culture to not rely on Christ for personal revelation. I can see how the church would want to keep visions of the future suppressed, however, I don't think it's helpful in the long run. If people would just know that personal revelation is biased, but they take things way to literal, because revelation is so strongly correlated now days.
So you're saying that a prophet of God named Joseph Fielding Smith is not being truthful and is purposefully deceiving people by telling them such things should be kept private ? That's dangerous ground to walk upon. There is personal revelation and then there is the revelation of a prophet of God acting as a prophet of God.

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GrandMasterB
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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by GrandMasterB »

zionminded wrote:
rdhill wrote:
zionminded wrote:The LDS Church today is as dogmatic as it ever has been the past. In many ways, this culture swing is appropriate for the times we live given the mindset of our social-ecology. J.R. doesn't teach against the church, she actually supports what leaders have been saying. The problem arises that she's much more specific. I feel that the GA's aren't telling us what they know, while J.R. isn't as bridled. Can you imagine Thomas S Monson getting up in front of the church and saying that he's seen in vision that there will be an earthquake in the next couple years that will kill a hundred thousand people along the Wasatch front! Why, people would move away in spades and-or leave the church in drouths. Because J.R. doesn't hold a position of authority, she "gets away" with this... however, I can understand why some people would be more sensitive to the messenger, while the spirit testify's of the reality of the message.
Except for one problem. Here's a great quote from one of those prophets who are "bridled" with what they can and can't say (tell that to Abinadi, Samuel, Nephi, or the Savior Himself).

Harold B. Lee: Ensign, Jan. 1973 https://www.lds.org/ensign/1973/01/admo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... d?lang=eng
"There are among us many loose writings predicting the calamities which are about to overtake us. Some of these have been publicized as though they were necessary to wake up the world to the horrors about to overtake us. Many of these are from sources upon which there cannot be unquestioned reliance.
Are you priesthood bearers aware of the fact that we need no such publications to be forewarned, if we were only conversant with what the scriptures have already spoken to us in plainness?"

Joseph Fielding Smith also said: "If a man comes among the Latter-day Saints, professing to have received a vision or a revelation or a remarkable dream, and the Lord has given him such, he should keep it to himself. It is all out of order, in this Church, for somebody to invite him into a sacrament service (My addition: or a devotional or fireside) to relate that to the Church, because the Lord will give his revelations in the proper way, to the one who is appointed to receive and dispense the word of God to the members of the Church. . . .
Now, these stories of revelation, that are being circulated around, are of no consequence, except for rumor and silly talk by persons who have no authority….When you know God's truth, when you enter into God's rest, you will not be hunting after revelations from Tom, Dick and Harry (or Julie or Hector, etc.) all over the world. You will not be following the will-o'-the-wisp of the vagaries of men and women who advance nonsense and their own ideas. " (Conference Report (April 1938), 65–67.)

Does that sum up what the problem is for you? ;-)
I think "keeping it to ones self" is exactly what the adversary wants. It creates a culture to not rely on Christ for personal revelation. I can see how the church would want to keep visions of the future suppressed, however, I don't think it's helpful in the long run. If people would just know that personal revelation is biased, but they take things way to literal, because revelation is so strongly correlated now days.
It sounds like you are implying that Joseph Fielding Smith was speaking the words of the devil. Is that the point you are trying to make?

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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by zionminded »

MrNasty wrote:
It sounds like you are implying that Joseph Fielding Smith was speaking the words of the devil. Is that the point you are trying to make?
No

zionminded
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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by zionminded »

Summerwind wrote: So you're saying that a prophet of God named Joseph Fielding Smith is not being truthful and is purposefully deceiving people by telling them such things should be kept private ? That's dangerous ground to walk upon. There is personal revelation and then there is the revelation of a prophet of God acting as a prophet of God.
No, he's speaking to the lowest common level to ones spiritual relationship with God. It doesn't make it deception, it makes it extremely foundational. Kind of like Moses spoke to the Israelites.

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Summerwind
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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by Summerwind »

there is also some fallacy about the fact that apparently if people claim to have these experiences, we are obligated to believe them as if we have need of a chaotic system for warning and teaching. Anything given outside the ordered channels of the priesthood is personal, and supplemental at best, not necessary or superceding anything we receive through the proper order because the Lord's house is a house of order, and he doeth nothing save he speaks to his servants the prophets. Either that, or the D&C isn't true scripture since both those loose references come from there.

The bottom line is that anyone who doesn't have priesthood authority and stewardship over the church is someone we may CHOOSE to believe or not believe because we will not be accountable for that as it is not doctrinal source. When it comes to personal experiences and revelation, there is a reason that they are personal, and there is a reason that they are not given in the seat of stewardship and authority. It is neat to speak with one another of various faith bolstering experiences, dreams, visions, and those things that build our testimony - but it becomes fallacy when we start to believe that it applies to others beyond our authority and stewardship or that they are obligated to listen.

I don't actually believe that Pres. Smith was speaking to the lowest common level at all. I think he was discussing the fact that it's chaotic to not hearken to the order that God has set in his house. We are told many of the elect will be deceived in the last days. Why do you suppose that is? Because they did not hearken to people's personal experiences? Or perhaps they did and listened to some of the wrong ones? I find the latter to be more likely than the former.

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AI2.0
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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by AI2.0 »

The Lord gave this counsel to us;
"Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church." D&C 42:11

And what are they to teach?

"And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gosepl which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel." D&C 42:12

So, given this counsel from our Lord, why are we being chastized for not believing Julie Rowe when she is not 'known to the church' as one 'having authority' and she does not limit herself to preaching the principles of the gospel, but goes off on tangents of tent cities, debtor's prisons, Bigfoot, predicting earthquakes, etc.

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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by Onsdag »

Just thought it might be about time to revisit this thread...
AI2.0 wrote: January 26th, 2015, 11:18 am I found some of Julie Rowe's posts saved on a blog and found some interesting posts that may be good indicators as to whether or not Julie's dreams are actually significant.

<snip>

Future predictions:
The collapse does not happen until after the Saints have been invited to gather, which happens in early Spring of the year -

My feelings are within the next two years.


The call to gather is a call to action - faith is tested and it comes when things are not that bad and not much different than they are today ----which is one of the reasons so many don't go. It is not a rescue mission after the calamities have already begun- it is a "pre-rescue mission" before the worst of it starts.

Beware of those who give specific dates...this is not the pattern the Lord uses. He may tell times and seasons - rough estimates - as things get closer may tell specific days when needed - ----but not given from a place of fear but rather one of love and faith.

Perhaps there will be some temporary bank closings before the call to gather for safety - but the true and total collapse happens later - not this summer.

I know this. I am traveling for three and a half weeks in July and was given specific counsel and direction to follow clear back last October 2013. In August I will be doing more traveling long distances - again - that would not be possible if the collapse had already happened or was going to happen.

I have been told and shown specific things pertaining the events that will unfold for me and my family next fall and know that we are getting much closer.

My days in Arizona are soon coming to an end which is another indication that we are getting much closer to the time for the gathering.

June 11th, 2014 - Add Post To Favorites
She has set a time frame with this post. She's suggesting we will gather to tent cities by June 2016. That leaves a year and a half for this 'prophecy' to come true.


So do you think Julie has painted herself into a box with this post? What do you think of her predictions for 2014 which did not seem to come true?

Also, do you think my fears are unfounded that if people lose confidence in Julie's predictions when/if they do not come true, they may lose confidence and trust in the church and it's counsel to prepare?

Well, for what it's worth, I think it's safe to call this one a bust now as well. June 2016 came and went without a certain significant tent event... well, excepting the one I went to of course. B-)

Speaking of which - it seems that Julie truly believed things would be coming to a head in 2016, with a 'wake-up' earthquake happening last spring. In fact, she believed it so much that she apparently gave an exact time for it to happen: 4:06 am on May 5th, 2016. Don't believe me? Well, look what I just came across:

http://14427784.weebly.talkiforum.com/2 ... 496/page3/

According to Shelle McDermott (who has been part of the call-out crowd and supportive of Julie, and therefore no reason to disbelieve her): "She predicted one last Sept that didn't come to pass. She predicted on this morning at 4:06 and had people stay up all night worrying. This has got to stop." When someone questioned the 4:06 prediction and pressed for details Shelle replied "I promised the three people who saw the post I would not disclose their names. It was on a private chat group run by Julie. I have known these ladies for 2 years and would not question what they told me. Each came forward on their own. I should mention, she has since deleted the post." I'm assuming the 'she' in this last sentence is Julie Rowe. So unless you are willing to consider Julie's innermost circle of friends as liars then here is credible evidence of another false prediction of Julie's. It should be noted that when her "imminent" May earthquake didn't happen she later predicted (intimated, really... but I'm going to call a spade a spade - it was still a prediction) it would happen by Christmas. As we know, this was yet another failed prediction. Which makes her 0/3 on the Wasatch 'Wake-up' Earthquake.

And, as strange as it may seem, I have recently learned that Julie Rowe is back to her antics (how is it the scriptures phrase it? Ah, yes - "like a dog to his vomit...") and again warning people that the 'wake-up' earthquake is about to hit any time now. And you know what the worst part of it is? That a large number of people are still giving her the time of day. When will people really 'wake-up' and get it? :ymsigh:

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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by AI2.0 »

Onsdag wrote: April 14th, 2017, 9:59 pm Just thought it might be about time to revisit this thread...
AI2.0 wrote: January 26th, 2015, 11:18 am I found some of Julie Rowe's posts saved on a blog and found some interesting posts that may be good indicators as to whether or not Julie's dreams are actually significant.

<snip>

Future predictions:
The collapse does not happen until after the Saints have been invited to gather, which happens in early Spring of the year -

My feelings are within the next two years.


The call to gather is a call to action - faith is tested and it comes when things are not that bad and not much different than they are today ----which is one of the reasons so many don't go. It is not a rescue mission after the calamities have already begun- it is a "pre-rescue mission" before the worst of it starts.

Beware of those who give specific dates...this is not the pattern the Lord uses. He may tell times and seasons - rough estimates - as things get closer may tell specific days when needed - ----but not given from a place of fear but rather one of love and faith.

Perhaps there will be some temporary bank closings before the call to gather for safety - but the true and total collapse happens later - not this summer.

I know this. I am traveling for three and a half weeks in July and was given specific counsel and direction to follow clear back last October 2013. In August I will be doing more traveling long distances - again - that would not be possible if the collapse had already happened or was going to happen.

I have been told and shown specific things pertaining the events that will unfold for me and my family next fall and know that we are getting much closer.

My days in Arizona are soon coming to an end which is another indication that we are getting much closer to the time for the gathering.

June 11th, 2014 - Add Post To Favorites
She has set a time frame with this post. She's suggesting we will gather to tent cities by June 2016. That leaves a year and a half for this 'prophecy' to come true.


So do you think Julie has painted herself into a box with this post? What do you think of her predictions for 2014 which did not seem to come true?

Also, do you think my fears are unfounded that if people lose confidence in Julie's predictions when/if they do not come true, they may lose confidence and trust in the church and it's counsel to prepare?

Well, for what it's worth, I think it's safe to call this one a bust now as well. June 2016 came and went without a certain significant tent event... well, excepting the one I went to of course. B-)

Speaking of which - it seems that Julie truly believed things would be coming to a head in 2016, with a 'wake-up' earthquake happening last spring. In fact, she believed it so much that she apparently gave an exact time for it to happen: 4:06 am on May 5th, 2016. Don't believe me? Well, look what I just came across:

http://14427784.weebly.talkiforum.com/2 ... 496/page3/

According to Shelle McDermott (who has been part of the call-out crowd and supportive of Julie, and therefore no reason to disbelieve her): "She predicted one last Sept that didn't come to pass. She predicted on this morning at 4:06 and had people stay up all night worrying. This has got to stop." When someone questioned the 4:06 prediction and pressed for details Shelle replied "I promised the three people who saw the post I would not disclose their names. It was on a private chat group run by Julie. I have known these ladies for 2 years and would not question what they told me. Each came forward on their own. I should mention, she has since deleted the post." I'm assuming the 'she' in this last sentence is Julie Rowe. So unless you are willing to consider Julie's innermost circle of friends as liars then here is credible evidence of another false prediction of Julie's. It should be noted that when her "imminent" May earthquake didn't happen she later predicted (intimated, really... but I'm going to call a spade a spade - it was still a prediction) it would happen by Christmas. As we know, this was yet another failed prediction. Which makes her 0/3 on the Wasatch 'Wake-up' Earthquake.

And, as strange as it may seem, I have recently learned that Julie Rowe is back to her antics (how is it the scriptures phrase it? Ah, yes - "like a dog to his vomit...") and again warning people that the 'wake-up' earthquake is about to hit any time now. And you know what the worst part of it is? That a large number of people are still giving her the time of day. When will people really 'wake-up' and get it? :ymsigh:
I'm glad you bumped this, there are other predictions which never happened;

The Call out, which was supposed to have happened by spring/summer 2016

A 'true and total collapse' of the economy (This was the one associated with the Blood moons which so many insisted was going to happen in Sept.--2015, right? I can't even remember for sure, because it seems each Sept, they predict a total collapse of the economy. I know we could be headed for a collapse--it's a serious financial mess, but not when these 'soothsayers' predict it.)

She also warned "Beware of those who give specific dates...this is not the pattern the Lord uses.'

She ignored her own warning and gave a specific date for the Earthquake last spring, when it didn't happen, deleted it, but not before some saw it.
It caused a stir and questionings among her followers, I believe the private forum they refer to was Pathway to Zion, which she left last spring, after the Earthquake didn't happen.

Some really believed her, they were fearful to go to bed every night, taking pictures off the wall and moving furniture, thinking there was going to be a devastating earthquake, any time. I hope they aren't still living that way, it's been almost a year.

And yet, there are still those waiting for a 'call out', and how long has that been predicted? A long time.


We used to have a vocal support group of Julie Rowe defenders on this forum, but they've all seemed to fade away. I wonder if they still believe her? I suspect that now that she's once again pushing her Wasatch Wakeup, for this spring, we'll see if she has many who put any stock in her predictions.

Z2100
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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by Z2100 »

Julie just makes up things to make her popular.....

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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by AI2.0 »

This thread died before the biggest blunder of Julie Rowe's career in predicting the future happened; I thought it fitting to post this here.

Last year in May Julie Rowe went on a radio station and made a bold (her own words) prediction of an earthquake (and a subsequent larger one)--she called the wasatch wakeup. From the interview;
My understanding right now is this interview that I’m having with you Bryan, is the last opportunity I have to essentially publicly testify and witness of our Savior Jesus Christ, testify of His plan, and warn many of our brothers and sisters that there is a very imminent earthquake on the Wasatch Front. What I’ve been shown and told is this is my last opportunity to do a live interview before that earthquake is going to happen. After that earthquake happens, which is happening very soon, then I’m going to get hit by a whirlwind of media.
I want to be very clear that The Lord does give dates sometimes when He needs us to know them, but that doesn’t mean that we share them. Yet I have been given permission to be very bold today to let you know that we have some very imminent things coming upon us within a matter of days.
Julie: Right. I actually saw numerous earthquakes in the Utah-Idaho area, but particularly what I refer to, because they’ve told me this on the other side, the “Wasatch Wake-Up Earthquake,” which for a long time those on the other side, ministering angels and those that are some of my guardian angels, have been letting me know that that earthquake was “soon,” and about a week and a half, two weeks ago that message changed to “imminent.” So we’ve gone from soon to imminent. Now obviously that’s relative in The Lord’s time, right? Because He doesn’t keep time the same way we do here linearly, but what I see is that is literally imminent as in it could be any day. It’s very surreal to be at this point.

A lot of people will say, “Hey we made it through the big one,” when in fact that’s not true. This is literally a wake-up call early in the morning as I see it. I posted some on my blog. I was finally given permission from The Spirit a couple of days ago, about last week, to post more details. If you go to Julie Rowe Prepare dot com, you can see there are several things posted there but one is titled, probably two weeks ago, “The Wasatch Wake Up.” So there’s one called, “The Wasatch Wake-Up” and one about five or seven days later that says, “What is the Wasatch Wake Up?” I encourage everyone listening now or listening later, go to those and see what I was able to say. I was given those words and it was hard because I wanted to say more, but was not given permission from The Spirit to do that. That will be of help to some. I encourage anybody in Utah especially, some in Idaho but Utah especially along the Wasatch, if you have any kind of mirrors or things above your bed, things that could, you know, you’re asleep at 4, 4:30, 5 in the morning, and you were to be awakened with shaking, you would minimize anything that might fall and bump you on the head or something like that.

Bryan: What were some of the things that you observed in terms of the amount of damage? I mean, if this is a wake up, I’m guessing that this would not be an all-out, off-the-charts kind of quake.

Julie: Right. So what I see is, depending on where you are, the epicenter and what’s being reported, is a 6.6 to a 7, the epicenter being in Salt Lake, centralized at the U of U and the hospital up there. As it goes out from there, with different shifting on the fault lines, anywhere from a 5.5 to a 5.6 directly on the Wasatch. You go into Sanpete, up the Rexburg area, into Cache valley and down where you are [St. George], you’re going to feel that. The tremors would be lighter, but if you get a 3.5, 4.5 you’re still going to feel that pretty well compared to what you’re used to.
Bryan: What did you see in terms of the Wasatch Wake Up? You mentioned that it occurs early in the morning?

Julie: Yes. I see a full, sunny day with relatively warm weather, actually a little bit unseasonably warm, and then kind of a late night, middle of the night, last minute cold front coming in where they don’t even really give a warning because it’s 3 in the morning, people are asleep. There’s a little bit of snow, and I see wet snow, so that the morning that people are awakened when the sun comes up after the aftershocks on that initial shake, about 6, 6:30 and people start coming outside in their robes and pajamas, kind of freaked out and they look to survey the damage in their areas, homes and neighborhoods, I see green grass, like a fresh, spring green grass, the roads are wet, there’s been no plowing, it’s wet roads and the grass is wet, not from frost, it’s wet from melting snow and rain, and then small patches of melting snow would be outside of the snow being water and wet. Very, very wet snow, barely turned to snow, most of it is rain and I don’t even remember seeing sleet, it’s not icy like that so much.

Then there’s of course aftershocks and things like that. That’s the initial wake up. We’re talking, not this year but later on, an off the charts 9, 9.5, 10 earthquake that will come later. This one is literally a wake up in the morning, and aftershocks for a couple days initially and then here and there throughout the next year or so.
In the short term, I see a lot going on with the elections, and I’ve addressed those in other shows and maybe after this earthquake you can have me back on and we’ll go into more of that, because that will be imminent after the earthquake.
http://julieroweprepare.com/julie-rowe- ... h-wake-up/

So we all know that the earthquake didn't happen and Julie started the backtracking, she did do another interview, when there was no earthquake. On her podcasts, she's tried to explain that she was mistaken about it being spring because she saw green grass and assumed it was spring. Now she's saying it could come in summer or fall. I think she's forgetting about seeing all the 'wet wet snow' which would not happen in Summer.

So, the Wasatch wake up is her biggest fail to date, in my opinion.

Julie did go on Bryan Hyde's show after the elections, in November 2016--she made predictions about the elections-- ebt cards wouldn't work (this was for the black friday sales after thanksgiving) Trump tower bombed, Trump shot or stabbed, assassinations and attempted assassinations, major riots--all this was going to happen last year during the weeks between the election of Trump and his taking office. All more predictions which failed to materialize.

Yet, she's writing more books, has her own podcast shows, continues to have her followers. It truly is amazing her lack of ability to predict future events doesn't seem to have any effect on her popularity.

shotx
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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by shotx »

AI2.0 wrote: August 30th, 2017, 10:26 am It truly is amazing her lack of ability to predict future events doesn't seem to have any effect on her popularity.
Human nature. People generally find whatever they're looking for. If someone wants something to be true badly enough, they'll find whatever justifications they need to believe it.

There have been predictions of "imminent" disasters and non-recoverable tribulations for going on 200 years now. A civil war, two world wars, a global depression, countless recessions, assassinations, nuclear stalemates, natural disasters, and controversial politicians later, here we still are... The world is still turning, economies are still working, and nobody is fleeing to the wilderness. Bad stuff keeps happening, but people eventually pick up and move on, only for the the next round of "the big event is REALLY just around the corner now," predictions and psuedo-prophecies to formulate.

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Re: Julie Rowe's ability to prophesy;

Post by jim »

On Friday I listened to her podcast on the Davidic Servant (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXxaSI8q2_I)
In it she says there's a prophet, priest and king and a witness, and these form the Davidic servant.
She says that some of these are relatives of each other.

I have a hard time believing what she said because in the first part of the podcast
she says she has a sure witness of these things (by the Spirit, her NDE's and John the Beloved).

Then between the 12 minute mark and 14 minute mark she says that John the Beloved is Jesus' brother (meaning physical brother).
Which it seems she gathered from an incorrect reading of
Matt 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
However, a quick trip to the Bible Dictionary under the entry for John, and you'll see that James and John are brothers (surnamed Boanerges, meaning sons of thunder), not Jesus and John were brothers.

Since she says that John the Beloved is personally teaching her many of these things, how can we have any confidence in her message when the John the Beloved that is visiting her apparently doesn't know who his own brothers are?

Here's some garbled transcript for the relevant portion thanks to Youtube's close captioned feature and excel (apologies for the lack of good paragraph breaks and punctuation and occasional wrong word transcribed).
say I learned of this through the Spirit
through my NDEs that I've had and
through confirmations of what they've
been showing me regarding my mission and
that of others I have learned firsthand from John
and I think this is fitting given that that
that there are examples in the first chapter
of John in the New Testament if you better John first
chapter go to chapter 19 and start reading till about
25 26 and you'll learn some more about that John
the Baptist was what is considered the hidden portion of
the presidency he came

as a witness of the Savior Jesus Christ prior to
Christ's coming and fulfilling his mission that was
during the fourth dispensation presidency so we
have Peter James and John's who are a type and
shadow coming down as prophet priest and King and
then then what most people don't realize which has
not been recorded or has not been noticed or has not been
qualified is the role that

there is a fourth member of the presidency serving
as the witness so let's let's break this down a
little bit there are some patterns that occur the
king is always an archangel the priest
and King are always taken in the same

manner they're either translated or martyred and the
priests and King are always related
by blood their father son brothers half-brothers

so in this case the Davidic servant is
the king meaning Jesus Christ

his brother which is the priest is John the Beloved
the prophet is the Hopi Indian which I
I don't have permission from
the spirit to disclose that person's name and Elias is

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