anyone read "Visons of Glory"? 4/14-13 "summary"

[itsmerich]

Fort Nine - your quick judgement of my motives and reasons for reading that book in no way exalts nor debases the doctrinal layout I presented. I chose to read the book as I was interested in its contents - not that it was of divine nature. Chris wrote a great book - after 20% of it I got bored of it - it was clear from the git go - the book was fiction and not divinely inspired.

[Fort Nine]

Fort Nine - your quick judgement of my motives and reasons for reading that book in no way exalts nor debases the doctrinal layout I presented. I chose to read the book as I was interested in its contents - not that it was of divine nature. Chris wrote a great book - after 20% of it I got bored of it - it was clear from the git go - the book was fiction and not divinely inspired.

There's nothing in Visions of Glory that contradicts doctrine. It validates doctrine. The list you put forth indicates to me that you're looking for all the wrong things. For example, you expect Spencer to adequately address something like 666 in a way that satisfied you, yet for all we know, 666 is entirely symbolic and unrecognizable by us. But that's beside the point.

Chris Nemelka, using "The Sealed Portion" and his other books, actively attacks the Lord's church in an effort to lead members astray. He promotes godlessness, homosexuality, secularism, and humanism/globalism. [MOD EDIT]

[A Random Phrase]

Is it possible that he has a 2nd Coming and once again comes at the end of the world as well? Could those 2 be confused?

I wouldn't say a "2nd Coming," yet He could conceivably come a third time at the end of the world when it is completely cleansed, dies, and is resurrected, no more to endure filth, pain, and anguish.

[A Random Phrase]

6. At NO time did he ever TEST the angels with the hand shake...how can a supposed righteous elder not know this or test them. Even satan can come as an angel of light - yet he did not test them....this is critical my brothers and sisters... ALWAYS test...without it we can be EASILY led astray (even the elect will be decieved.

Very good catch. I didn't think about that.

. . .
Maybe his visions were real - maybe the end goal of Satan was to give all these visions and to deceive people (remember he didn't test the spirits no matter how friendly/helpful they may be"). ...

I am convinced that the adversary is busy giving visions to people, convincing some of them that he is a true angel of God, then he gets them to share his messages, which sound good but have deception here and there. Enough to lure people down the wrong path. I'm not thinking of "Spencer" here, but of some few others I have come across.

.

Excellent post. Very well said. Knowing the scriptures is key.

[A Random Phrase]

Fort Nine - your quick judgement of my motives and reasons for reading that book in no way exalts nor debases the doctrinal layout I presented. I chose to read the book as I was interested in its contents - not that it was of divine nature. Chris wrote a great book - after 20% of it I got bored of it - it was clear from the git go - the book was fiction and not divinely inspired.

It is nice to see a calm answer. It doesn't seem to happen often on this site.

[itsmerich]

Thanks Random!-- there's a lot of hostile, rude, arrogant, and snide LDS people on here -- my energies are better spent not arguing with people who wouldn't act rudely too my face. I hope all LDS people here can respond and communicate like they would in person and how the scriptures teach us - in meekness, kindness, etc.

And for those who are going to reply to this statement for what I said "hostile, rude, arrogant, and snide LDS people " and call me judgmental etc., then I've pricked your hearts. You know who you are.

[TZONE]

Havent read the last few comments...

6. At NO time did he ever TEST the angels with the hand shake...how can a supposed righteous elder not know this or test them. Even satan can come as an angel of light - yet he did not test them....this is critical my brothers and sisters... ALWAYS test...without it we can be EASILY led astray (even the elect will be decieved.

This is a important thing to do. He may not have written about it but he may have done so. Not sure. This is a big issue with anti-mormons though, how did Joseph Smith know moroni was not deceiving him when he did not try the spirit, or Christ and God for that matter. They could have been satan as angels of light... I am sure there are other ways to tell besides just "trying the spirit" though I don't really know.

[e-eye]

Thanks Random!-- there's a lot of hostile, rude, arrogant, and snide LDS people on here -- my energies are better spent not arguing with people who wouldn't act rudely too my face. I hope all LDS people here can respond and communicate like they would in person and how the scriptures teach us - in meekness, kindness, etc.

And for those who are going to reply to this statement for what I said "hostile, rude, arrogant, and snide LDS people " and call me judgmental etc., then I've pricked your hearts. You know who you are.

Often people will say they follow Christ with their words and act a different way especially when they sit behind a screen. I like this forum for it's nuggets of truth and reasearch that is shared. There are many reasons to dislike this forum ,as you mentioned above, you can get stoned by those who don't believe as you do. A large number of those who post here have points of view that I disagree with. Many have problems with leadership and are quick to point out weaknesses of others and those who are called of God.

Visions of Glory has some great nuggets of truth even if you beleive it happened or not. Even if if you take the book as fiction I think you can look at it as overall as inspiring.

[TZONE]

Thanks Random!-- there's a lot of hostile, rude, arrogant, and snide LDS people on here -- my energies are better spent not arguing with people who wouldn't act rudely too my face. I hope all LDS people here can respond and communicate like they would in person and how the scriptures teach us - in meekness, kindness, etc.

And for those who are going to reply to this statement for what I said "hostile, rude, arrogant, and snide LDS people " and call me judgmental etc., then I've pricked your hearts. You know who you are.

Often people will say they follow Christ with their words and act a different way especially when they sit behind a screen. I like this forum for it's nuggets of truth and reasearch that is shared. There are many reasons to dislike this forum ,as you mentioned above, you can get stoned by those who don't believe as you do. A large number of those who post here have points of view that I disagree with. Many have problems with leadership and are quick to point out weaknesses of others and those who are called of God.

Visions of Glory has some great nuggets of truth even if you beleive it happened or not. Even if if you take the book as fiction I think you can look at it as overall as inspiring.

:ymapplause: The more private forums are less contentious (greater things, approaching hte heavenly gift).

[Rose Garden]

Thanks Random!-- there's a lot of hostile, rude, arrogant, and snide LDS people on here -- my energies are better spent not arguing with people who wouldn't act rudely too my face. I hope all LDS people here can respond and communicate like they would in person and how the scriptures teach us - in meekness, kindness, etc.

And for those who are going to reply to this statement for what I said "hostile, rude, arrogant, and snide LDS people " and call me judgmental etc., then I've pricked your hearts. You know who you are.

Often people will say they follow Christ with their words and act a different way especially when they sit behind a screen. I like this forum for it's nuggets of truth and reasearch that is shared. There are many reasons to dislike this forum ,as you mentioned above, you can get stoned by those who don't believe as you do. A large number of those who post here have points of view that I disagree with. Many have problems with leadership and are quick to point out weaknesses of others and those who are called of God.

Visions of Glory has some great nuggets of truth even if you beleive it happened or not. Even if if you take the book as fiction I think you can look at it as overall as inspiring.

I'm more myself here. I've just been called to teach the 15 year olds in my ward. In my head I'm so enthusiastic and bold. But when I get in class, my nerves hold me back. Wish I could be more like I am here in person.

[marc]

Congrats, CTS! I've been teaching 15 year olds for the past several years. Challenging and rewarding.

And wow, this topic has gone the distance hasn't it? No wonder our beloved Savior taught in parables. But wait, how can we reenter our mother's womb and be reborn???

How can these visions of glory be right with so many wrong details? We forget to take into account the themes and elements and we start focusing on the details and minutia. In Spencer's dream, he lost his pants when the earthquake struck and was washed down to the train station before finally being helped. How many of us have dreamed that we went to school or church or somewhere in our underwear? Spencer felt inadequate and having lost his pants was a manifestation of that feeling in his dream. Now will he really lose his pants when the time comes or will he feel scared, unsure, inadequate, shocked, or all of the above?

Let the details and their representations in the visions be for Spencer. They were meant for him. The themes and elements are what matter. There will be a disaster, there will be gatherings, etc. When I read this book, I unexpectedly felt the Spirit witness to me of it's truthfulness. I got from it what I needed. I hope everyone gets from it what they need. Spencer certainly has received what the Lord saw fit to give him.

[wingsfan9]

Congrats, CTS! I've been teaching 15 year olds for the past several years. Challenging and rewarding.

And wow, this topic has gone the distance hasn't it? No wonder our beloved Savior taught in parables. But wait, how can we reenter our mother's womb and be reborn???

How can these visions of glory be right with so many wrong details? We forget to take into account the themes and elements and we start focusing on the details and minutia. In Spencer's dream, he lost his pants when the earthquake struck and was washed down to the train station before finally being helped. How many of us have dreamed that we went to school or church or somewhere in our underwear? Spencer felt inadequate and having lost his pants was a manifestation of that feeling in his dream. Now will he really lose his pants when the time comes or will he feel scared, unsure, inadequate, shocked, or all of the above?

Let the details and their representations in the visions be for Spencer. They were meant for him. The themes and elements are what matter. There will be a disaster, there will be gatherings, etc. When I read this book, I unexpectedly felt the Spirit witness to me of it's truthfulness. I got from it what I needed. I hope everyone gets from it what they need. Spencer certainly has received what the Lord saw fit to give him.

REALLY well said. I too felt the Spirit that were many elements of truth and events that we will all experience, but that there were many things that were symbolic for Spencer. This book really got me started on my own spiritual journey to Zion and I am most grateful for that. We all have much to do to prepare ourselves temporally and spiritually so that we can embrace the attitude of "come what may ... and love it!".

[Fort Nine]

If Visions of Glory is true, and all the inspiration articulated by Pontius about the timing to publish it, and the permission from the Spirit to publish it, etc, tells me that we better not underestimate how monumental that book is. If true, it is the equivalent of the Lord warning Lehi about what would befall Jerusalem.

Many members dismiss it or take it lightly because they say that only the LDS Prophet would receive such visionary knowledge, or because Deseret Book didn't publish it, so it's a sham. Well, consider that Lehi was not the president of a church. Nephi was not, either. Joseph Smith was not a president of a church at the time of the First Vision. Moses was not the president or duly appointed prophet of an organization (to my knowledge). The Lord often uses righteous priesthood holders to get his message across, and it's up to us to know what is true, based on what his duly appointed leaders, and the scriptures, have taught us.

The administrators of the LDS Church cannot endorse or acknowledge the existence of (or veracity of) Visions of Glory any more than they can get away with sending money to a political party. If President Monson spoke of what Spencer spoke of, mass panic would ensue, and the SLC valley would be empty of its inhabitants within a week. If they issue a calamity warning, rest assured that it'll be coming within days--like the tornado alarm in a town.

We need to be evaluating VoG on what its message is, who it is for, and the ramifications of what it means if it's true. If true, it's a warning to be taken very seriously by those who are paying attention. God works in mysterious ways, and when he sends a message, the timing of the message is important, and so is the audience. I cannot prove VoG is true, but the effect it has had on me has produced positive behavioral change--even, I'm ashamed to say, at times more effectively than actual scriptures. I heard Spencer speak in his interview, and I trust him. I intend to prepare as though VoG is a warning from God, and hope for the best. But based on the direction that this nation and the world is headed, it would seem that events similar to what Spencer described are inevitable.

Cheers

[iamse7en]

For people's reading pleasure...

FAIR Review of Visions of Glory

[marc]

Holy Cow, someone went through a lot of trouble for one book. Just read the book. Or don't. If the Spirit witnesses of it's truth or any part of it as truth, then you have received a second witness, Spencer's being the first.

D&C 6:28...and in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

How's that for apologetics!?

[Fort Nine]

Gee, that's an (un)FAIR review. If Spencer were solely responsible for the book, then , yeah, I'd be a little more skeptical. I contend that John Pontius, a respected author and member, would have abandoned that project if Spencer had been a fraud. John would have spotted it.

In the mouths of two or three witnesses indeed...

[Rose Garden]

Someone always brings up Hiram Page when someone claims to have received a vision from the Lord. However, the revelation about Hiram only states that a person won't receive revelation for the church. It doesn't say no one but the church authorities are going to receive revelation at all. I don't think Visions of Glory ever purports to be revelation for the church.

[BMC]

Kingdoms of no glory

Spencer describes multiple “planes of existence” “stacked, or layered, in the same space” (80). He tells us that there are “glorified universes” or planes that correspond to the telestial, terrestrial, or celestial. But, he also claims that

There were other types, which were not types of glory. These were wonderful places without glory where beings who had not qualified for a reward of glory during their lifetimes were ultimately sent. These were of every type, of every description, and were created in response to their desires (80).

This claim directly contradicts Latter-day Scriptures. Only those condemned to perdition or “outer darkness” are not in kingdoms of glory. Of these beings, D&C 76 tells us that:

The author of FAIR's excerpt of Visions of Glory is not all that correct. I only wish to point out the comment above in rebuttal to his statement, that this claim by Spencer does not directly contradict Latter-day Scriptures.

Had he read further into the D&C, and read Section 88 it again discusses the various glories, and specifically in versus 32 & 33, it asserts that there are those who shall remain and be quickened and shall receive whatsoever thing that they would be willing to receive, obviously they shall not receive any of the three main glories because they rejected all of them and it profits them nothing to receive a gift that they would not receive with their hearts. Nor are they being cast into "outer darkness" and are not those who are in perdition, and do not qualify for that.

D&C 88:
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received. (They refused the greater gift, but did not qualify for perdition, but are given what ever they will accept and nothing more, agency is still at play isn't it?)

33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift. (Again it asserts it is of no benefit to give more than what the person is willing to accept, no one will be forced and will receive accordingly what they are willing to receive.)

It is not hard to draw the conclusion that there are also those who did not qualify for any of the three kingdoms as Spencer claims, that they with those who rejected the greater gifts will receive according to what they either earned or are willing to receive. Such places do exists that are not kingdoms of glory, and not perdition or outer darkness, the scriptures contradict the author on FAIR on this point.

[TZONE]

I am actually surprised in how many errors are in the FAIR article. Though there is some valid points too.

I love how they site this too..

In contrast to these claims, modern leaders have assured us that a long future awaits and that we need not be fearful of such calamities. Said President Boyd K. Packer:

Sometimes you might be tempted to think as I did from time to time in my youth: “The way things are going, the world’s going to be over with. The end of the world is going to come before I get to where I should be.” Not so! You can look forward to doing it right—getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren.9

Which in itself is making a false security for people.

[BrentL]

no need to read the review of the book. per the author:

Anonymous and unconfirmed sources are simply difficult to trust, and according to scripture they cannot be operating with divine authority within the Church of Jesus Christ.

and seeing as how the author is unknown and :

FAIR is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All research and opinions provided on this site are the sole responsibility of FAIR, and should not be interpreted as official statements of LDS doctrine, belief or practice.

accoring to themselves they are undevine.

[Thomas]

I am actually surprised in how many errors are in the FAIR article. Though there is some valid points too.

I love how they site this too..

In contrast to these claims, modern leaders have assured us that a long future awaits and that we need not be fearful of such calamities. Said President Boyd K. Packer:

Sometimes you might be tempted to think as I did from time to time in my youth: “The way things are going, the world’s going to be over with. The end of the world is going to come before I get to where I should be.” Not so! You can look forward to doing it right—getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren.9

Which in itself is making a false security for people.

I am missing something here? In the Spencer's book, did all life cease? When did Packer say all people are guaranteed to live long enough to have grandchildren? Won't many of them die before this happens?

[Thomas]

no need to read the review of the book. per the author:

Anonymous and unconfirmed sources are simply difficult to trust, and according to scripture they cannot be operating with divine authority within the Church of Jesus Christ.

and seeing as how the author is unknown and :

FAIR is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All research and opinions provided on this site are the sole responsibility of FAIR, and should not be interpreted as official statements of LDS doctrine, belief or practice.

accoring to themselves they are undevine.

I guess it is fair to say that FAIR has informed us, they have no credibility.

[A Random Phrase]

no need to read the review of the book. per the author:

Anonymous and unconfirmed sources are simply difficult to trust, and according to scripture they cannot be operating with divine authority within the Church of Jesus Christ.

and seeing as how the author is unknown and :

FAIR is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All research and opinions provided on this site are the sole responsibility of FAIR, and should not be interpreted as official statements of LDS doctrine, belief or practice.

accoring to themselves they are undevine.

)

I guess it is fair to say that FAIR has informed us, they have no credibility.

) )

[Fort Nine]

Why do some of you think there's a problem because Spencer is anonymous? The book's author, Pontius, is not anonymous--so there's ownership with the information. He's smartly protecting Spencer while sticking his own neck out. Can you imagine the crap storm that would come at Spencer if people knew his actual identity? It would ruin his life. He'd be hounded incessantly, and people would start worshiping the man. Pontius did this project correctly, every step of the way. Those of you trying to shoot it down are the ones looking foolish. You cannot disprove he had the vision--you're only trying to poke holes in the way it was interpreted in English on paper--which is incredibly difficult if not impossible. Any of you who have had a spiritual witness, just try to describe it in English. Can't be done. I think Pontius and Spencer did a pretty good job.

[LDSguy]

Why do some of you think there's a problem because Spencer is anonymous? The book's author, Pontius, is not anonymous--so there's ownership with the information. He's smartly protecting Spencer while sticking his own neck out. Can you imagine the crap storm that would come at Spencer if people knew his actual identity? It would ruin his life. He'd be hounded incessantly, and people would start worshiping the man. Pontius did this project correctly, every step of the way. Those of you trying to shoot it down are the ones looking foolish. You cannot disprove he had the vision--you're only trying to poke holes in the way it was interpreted in English on paper--which is incredibly difficult if not impossible. Any of you who have had a spiritual witness, just try to describe it in English. Can't be done. I think Pontius and Spencer did a pretty good job.

:ymapplause: