anyone read "Visons of Glory"? 4/14-13 "summary"

[livy111us]

Just read this review of the book which points out many problems with the book (doctrinally) as well as claiming revelation when it is only supposed to come through the Prophet. Interesting read.
http://www.fairlds.org/authors/smith-gr ... s-of-glory" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Rose Garden]

I am missing something here? In the Spencer's book, did all life cease? When did Packer say all people are guaranteed to live long enough to have grandchildren? Won't many of them die before this happens?

They used the argument to show that the millennium is not that close at hand. Basically, Spencer stated he saw many of the 12 he "recognized" thus showing htese things happened very soon. So they used that Packer quote to show this could be a false claim. Packer stated it in a Youth CES fireside? Or some type of fireside. They have the reference in the article.

I prefer to error on the side of caution than not. After all it gets us to do it NOW instead of later.

When I encountered the Packer quote, I realized that he never promised us that the turmoil of the last days wouldn't hit soon. Only that the world wouldn't end soon. So I can see how all that Spencer saw could happen and the Packer quote still be valid. Actually, that's the way I think it's going to go.

[TZONE]

When I encountered the Packer quote, I realized that he never promised us that the turmoil of the last days wouldn't hit soon. Only that the world wouldn't end soon. So I can see how all that Spencer saw could happen and the Packer quote still be valid. Actually, that's the way I think it's going to go.

Yes I agree. Everyone takes it out of context. Probably due to lack of understanding of how the future unfolds. Even though I don't know how, I do know it won't be pretty.

[Fort Nine]

Elder Packer is correct in that life will go on. We mistakenly attach a finality to the beginning of the formal Tribulation, or the start of the Millennium (even though the Millennium could begin decades after the calamities). The timeline is fluid and depends on our behavior. So these events, to me, amount to changes to the social and geographical environment around us, and changes to people's hearts, but life never stops it's progression.

Based on the military vehicle Spencer describes, we are a decade away from the quake. Carbon fiber, light weight frame that's tougher than normal steel? Powered by bio-fuel? Built-in solar panels? Yes, this tech all exists, but it'll take time to be put into full production.

[marc]

Just read this review of the book which points out many problems with the book (doctrinally) as well as claiming revelation when it is only supposed to come through the Prophet. Interesting read.
http://www.fairlds.org/authors/smith-gr ... s-of-glory" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Their "review" was already discussed on the second half of the previous page (ten).

[Thomas]

Called to Serve wrote: When I encountered the Packer quote, I realized that he never promised us that the turmoil of the last days wouldn't hit soon. Only that the world wouldn't end soon. So I can see how all that Spencer saw could happen and the Packer quote still be valid. Actually, that's the way I think it's going to go.

A large portion of his talk focuses on obtaining the Holy Spirit as a guide so you can survive the future turmoil. No guarantees of life going on as it is now. He also talks of some who did not live through the war. I don't think Spencer's vision and Packer's talk are incompatible. The end of the world is a Long way off. The end of the times of the Gentiles, maybe not so much. What exactly is the end of the world anyway? People will have children and grandchildren during the millennium.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... h?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Fort Nine]

I'm of the opinion that the GAs have no clue what the future holds any more than the average member, so Spencer's account is, for me, as valid as anyone's.

[BMC]

Just read this review of the book which points out many problems with the book (doctrinally) as well as claiming revelation when it is only supposed to come through the Prophet. Interesting read.
http://www.fairlds.org/authors/smith-gr ... s-of-glory" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but all mysteries, knowledge of all things pertaining to God may be revealed to anyone and not just the Prophet, all are able to receive the same even to receive knowledge that has yet to be revealed to man. The difference is the Prophet/President of the church is the only one to declare revelation for the church. In reading the review I found many things where the reviewer misquoted and or doesn't understand the scriptures that he is using to defeat Spencer's book in seeking to find fault with it, taking things out of context. Spencer no where states that I can recall that this was for the church and that the Lord declared he should share this for the church's sake, he is sharing knowledge, yes, his testimony and personal experiences. I cannot judge whether or not he should be sharing his personal revelations or not. I believe his intent it help uplift people spiritually, to call others to come unto Christ. There are things he maybe shouldn't have shared either, if this is the case God will hold him accountable for revealing truths that were meant only for him.

Acts 2:17

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

D&C 107:18,19
18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church—

19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.

D&C 84:19
19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

[God's Army]

Most of my family and I read it and we all found it very interesting. I'll probably read it again because I liked it so much. It definitely got me thinking about my own spiritual preparedness and if I'll be ready when it all goes down. I had to constantly ask myself if my faith would be sufficient to fully rely on the Lord if I have nothing and I'm called to travel to help build Zion. I'd like to say it is but truth is I'm not fully sure. I've learned a lot through both obedience and (as some of you know) consequences of disobedience recently, but I know I can't take any breaks. The upcoming trials will truly test the very best of us, many of whom are light-years ahead of me, spiritually. I just have to chip away at my weaknesses and build up my srengths one step at a time and hope I get there someday. Line upon line and cling to the rod. These thoughts have been on my mind a lot lately, especially after reading this book.

[whitinglarryl]

Although my thoughts may not be popular among some visitors on this site, I wish to express an opinion as I have read materials published by John Pontius, more in particular the book entitled “Visions of Glory”.
The book in my view is an unwise and misguided treatise to say nothing of the folly of publishing the several doctrinal missteps coupled with references to flamboyant personal spiritual experiences, visitations and visions. I subscribe to the counsel that if anyone does have such intimate personal spiritual manifestations, the recipient might be found wise enough to keep them private and personal. Indeed, in my view such events would be too sacred to publically rehearse. I am reminded of Elder Boyd K. Packer’s statement that, “…it is not wise to continually talk of unusual spiritual experiences… they are very personal and very private” (October Conference 1972). My own experiences have taught me that, “The sanctity of a true testimony should inspire wisdom as to its use.” In a small gathering I was privileged to attend a number of years ago with a senior General Authority, he rehearsed certain content of regular personal meetings he had held with the First Presidency over an extended period of time. At the conclusion of our discussion, he said, “In all of those years, not once did I ever hear them say anything to tickle my ears.”
I have observed that if it were essential—even desirable for Church members to be aware of such things as herein referred to, the senior Church leaders would teach/publish them vertically through the priesthood power line. Revelation in/for the Church comes in a vertical not a horizontal pattern and is open and occasionally canonized into scripture by a vote of the membership.
A book written in the late eighties by Betty Eatie entitled “Embraced by the Light” was based on premises/unfounded doctrine which she promoted about her alledged “out of body” experiences. Many members were led to believe her stories and she filled public buildings with people “taken in” by her pontifications. My observation in Church matters with a few members who were eventually disciplined, began with their emersion in written documents/philosophies strikingly similar to those of Pontius and Eatie. As pride advanced itself, these folks insinuated that they were privileged to have just a little deeper and better perspective of the doctrine than other Church members including their general and local leaders--elitism). Because some of what is written in this book is doctrinally spurious, it persuades me to suggest that the entire treatise (as found in these writings) is based on false premises.
Nothing good, in my opinion, will come of these materials. My suggestion is to leave them alone. What purpose can there be in it? Is it essential for our personal salvation?

LL Whiting

[A Random Phrase]

whitinglarryl, I fixed your post so it would be easier to read.

Although my thoughts may not be popular among some visitors on this site, I wish to express an opinion as I have read materials published by John Pontius, more in particular the book entitled “Visions of Glory”.

The book in my view is an unwise and misguided treatise to say nothing of the folly of publishing the several doctrinal missteps coupled with references to flamboyant personal spiritual experiences, visitations and visions.

I subscribe to the counsel that if anyone does have such intimate personal spiritual manifestations, the recipient might be found wise enough to keep them private and personal. Indeed, in my view such events would be too sacred to publically rehearse.

I am reminded of Elder Boyd K. Packer’s statement that, “…it is not wise to continually talk of unusual spiritual experiences… they are very personal and very private” (October Conference 1972).

My own experiences have taught me that, “The sanctity of a true testimony should inspire wisdom as to its use.”

In a small gathering I was privileged to attend a number of years ago with a senior General Authority, he rehearsed certain content of regular personal meetings he had held with the First Presidency over an extended period of time. At the conclusion of our discussion, he said, “In all of those years, not once did I ever hear them say anything to tickle my ears.”

I have observed that if it were essential—even desirable for Church members to be aware of such things as herein referred to, the senior Church leaders would teach/publish them vertically through the priesthood power line. Revelation in/for the Church comes in a vertical not a horizontal pattern and is open and occasionally canonized into scripture by a vote of the membership.

A book written in the late eighties by Betty Eatie entitled “Embraced by the Light” was based on premises/unfounded doctrine which she promoted about her alledged “out of body” experiences. Many members were led to believe her stories and she filled public buildings with people “taken in” by her pontifications.

My observation in Church matters with a few members who were eventually disciplined, began with their emersion in written documents/philosophies strikingly similar to those of Pontius and Eatie. As pride advanced itself, these folks insinuated that they were privileged to have just a little deeper and better perspective of the doctrine than other Church members including their general and local leaders--elitism).

Because some of what is written in this book is doctrinally spurious, it persuades me to suggest that the entire treatise (as found in these writings) is based on false premises.

Nothing good, in my opinion, will come of these materials. My suggestion is to leave them alone. What purpose can there be in it? Is it essential for our personal salvation?

LL Whiting

I think the book has some useful things in it, however I would not bet my salvation on this book being an accurate picture of the future.

[AmericanBulldog]

Currently reading it....

[brianne541]

Currently reading it....

I loved this book. Everyone has their own opinions about it, but it taught me so much about the spiritual side of all things, and I also felt that the representation of evil or dark spirits was right on. I also agree with what he was shown in regards to addictions (being one who has struggled with different addictions, and addictive behaviors all my life, this really resinated with me. I felt it to be true. I'm definitely more "in touch" with all things in a spiritual regard now… I look at everything differently since reading this book. I hope you enjoy it!

[SamFisher]

I think Spencer, in VoG, had those visions. Whether he is adequately or accurately interpreting and describing them is up for debate. I don't think anyone can shoot it down doctrinally, because as it stands, we barely know anything of heaven and the spirit world ourselves. It is doctrinally sound, to me. It's a strange book because we've never had a contemporary, highly detailed account of this kind of thing, one that hits so close to home (particularly if you live in Utah). We're accustomed to trying to interpret ancient text or, at best, 150 year old accounts from people like Joseph Smith.

I also don't expect the kind of vision Spencer had to come down formally through GAs--at least not yet. If a GA spoke of an impending earthquake, just imagine the chaos it would cause to Utah's economy. However, you don't see the GAs coming out and saying VoG is a lie.

My belief is that the GAs will begin talking like this when they call home the missionaries. That should be the sign for us. When war and economic collapse are in play, we'll hear more and know more as a group about tribulation and what's coming. Spencer's account will become self evidently true, and it will be a great comfort to us, along with the BoM and D&C, in helping us know how to create Zion.

VoG has me looking forward to the calamity rather than fearing it. Great book.

[yogicindrew]

My son brought up that when we die we go to spirit prison or paradise ... But Spencer talks about spirits surrounding humans, some being families from the past.... Can anyone maybe clarify this for me?

My daughters partriarchal blessing tells her that she has gardian angels here to support her and help her through this life, some of which are direct ancestors. In the temple we hear of angels being present. If you search the scriptures on LDS.org you will find lots of accouts of ministering angels to the children of man.

[diligently seeking]

In accordance to what Spencer said he saw that we did not have general conference for a period of time. (I think more like two years) Then finally in an October in the future we have four sessions in one day as the book describes. The reason we will need to be truly converted before that day is described below.
The following quote tells us the day will come when we will need to rely upon the Lord and be prepared spiritually and physically. It seems that counsel from leaders will not be available as it is now. Thus we need to truly converted to the Lord or we will not stand.

"Let me say to you, that many of you will see the time when you will have all the trouble, trial and persecution that you can stand, and plenty of opportunities to show that you are true to God and his work. This Church has before it many close places through which it will have to pass before the work of God is crowned with victory. To meet the difficulties that are coming, it will be necessary for you to have a knowledge of the truth of this work for yourselves. The difficulties will be of such a character that the man or woman who does not possess this personal knowledge or witness will fall. If you have not got the testimony, live right and call upon the Lord and cease not till you obtain it. If you do not, you will not stand.
Remember these sayings, for many of you will live to see them fulfilled. The time will come when no man nor woman will be able to endure on borrowed light. Each will have to be guided by the light within himself. If you do not have it, how can you stand? Do you believe it?
How is it now? You have the First Presidency, from whom you can get counsel to guide you, and you rely upon them. The time will come when they will not be with you. Why? Because they will have to flee and hide up to keep out of the hands of their enemies. You have the Twelve now. You will not always have them, for they too will be hunted and will have to keep out of the way of their enemies. You have other men to whom you look for counsel and advice. Many of them will not be amongst you, for the same reason. You will be left to the light within yourselves. If you don't have it you will not stand; therefore seek for the testimony of Jesus and cleave unto it, that when the trying time comes you may not stumble and fall." [Orson F. Whitney, Life of Heber C. Kimball, pp.450-451]

When the saints are called upon to gather to the tops of the mountains or wherever they are individually inspired to gather, the enemies of the church, in most cases former members then apostates, will seek to close in around the saints. Third Nephi chapters 1-10 will be repeated according to President Ezra Taft Benson before Christ comes again. It will days of sorrow and a trial of the elect of God. The Nephites who survived the cleansing of the western hemisphere two thousand years ago did so because they were the more righteous ones of the overall group. Nephi could not communicate with them and they could not see him during the three days of darkness but each had to rely upon the Lord alone. The challenges we must face ahead will try the faith of all of us. The scriptures and guidance of the Holy Ghost will be all that we will have to help us choose the right. We will come to know, as they did, that ONLY Christ can save us. The sooner we realize this daily in our lives the better prepared we will be when the darkness gathers all around. Where were you when the lights went out? May each of us learn through the trials of life to depend only upon the Son of God and no one else.

Below takes Elder Bednar’s great talk last general conference on the difference between testimony and conversion and expounds upon it.

Alma 12:10
10 "And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full."

The lesser portion of the word and the greater portion of the word together constitute the fulness of the gospel.

The Lesser portion of the word
----------------------------------------Testimony
Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ
Repentance
Baptism
Gift of the Holy Ghost
Melchizedek Priesthood
Washing and Anointing
Endowment
Temple Marriage
(the lesser portion of the word will get you the terrestrial kingdom)

The Greater portion of the word
---------------------------------------Conversion
Sanctification
Purification
Baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost
(This cleanses us of all sin and we become spiritually begotten of Christ (Mosiah 27:25,26)
Born Again (No longer struggling to overcome the natural man. No desire to sin at all)
Fulness of the Priesthood By God’s own voice (Helaman 10 D&C 50:26-30 JST Gen:14:28-31)
Personally know Christ face to face (D&C 93:1)
Sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise (The Father tells you that you are going to be exalted)
Calling and election made sure
Church of the Firstborn
Possible translation
(True conversion is the only way to receive exaltation)

The above events can happen in any order the Lord chooses. These could be years apart from each other as well.
Testimony alone will not save us. As President Heber C. Kimball and Elder Bednar have taught, it is not enough to have a testimony of the truth. Exaltation comes from receiving the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The wise virgins are the ones who have been truly converted and the unwise virgins have only a testimony of the lessor portion of the word. This is why I see the brethren speaking of becoming converted and seeking the greater portion of the word. I know that I need to receive these marvelous eternal blessings in my life and so I share these things with all. May we each obtain them in order to stand true and faithful and not fall in the days ahead.

.

Worth further investigation and discusion. visions of glory came to our home via mail while I was at work, one Saturday..I will never forget how sweet the peace was felt in our home as I walked through the front door to find my wife reading V.O.G.. I remember telling my wife in delightful amazement how wonderful the spirit was in the home.... I give my witness that it is a treasure trove of truth.

[rewcox]

I'm reading the 2nd half currently.

Whether you believe it or not, it has some interesting items to consider.

[Silver Pie]

Is anyone still talking about this book? Or has it melted into obscurity?

[mirkwood]

I never hear about that fable anymore.

[Silver Pie]

I don't either. That's why I was wondering.

[Matchmaker]

The fifth anniversary issue of VOG just came out recently. I saw it at Costco. It contains a question and answer session at the beginning that Spencer had with a group of LDS from Utah, I think.

[kittycat51]

If it were a "true" book, I'm sure that Deseret Book would carry it. They do not.

[Syn]

I would say the book helps broaden your viewpoint of how things could happen. But overall, it is a book of fictional stories mingled with real stories. He wrote with all the elements of a fictional book. There's a good amount of foreshadowing and other elements of writing that are too hard to dismiss. There are contradictions with doctrine and the book becomes more and more sensationalized as it goes on. It did make me want to be more prepared and better spiritually. I would say it is a good book to read if you don't get latched on to sensationalized end times stuff. This is why I don't actively recommend it to friends or family.