Gathering to Zion

[DrJay]

I'm assuming that we have a misinterpretation of what Elder Holland said. I haven't read the article, but something here does not feel right.

[LDSguy]

I read Elder Holland's Ensign recent article last night. He very clearly stated that we are to build up Zion wherever we are, and the we will stay there permanently. He referred to Utah as the New Jerusalem, and said that we will not flee Babylon as Saints have in times past.

That doesn't sound like he is "hedging" the future. "Permanent" sounds very different than "not yet". Utah the New Jerusalem? Again that is very different than what has been revealed by the Lord.

yeah Im not buying that translation of what he said, especially the word "permanent" else God would be a liar as it contradicts the D&C and the 10th article of faith and what all the other prophets and apostles have said.

[samizdat]

Definite misinterpretation of Elder Holland, we have here.

What IS going to happen is that Zion is going to be set up in its center stake which IS Independence. Utah is NOT the New Jerusalem, but it is where a good portion of the Church membership lives (over 560 of the approximately 3100 GLOBAL stakes)...

[DrJay]

I would like to know what he did say. Any link?

[Desert Roses]

https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ ... g?lang=eng EDIT: Also in the June 2014 Ensign

Elder Holland did not (in my opinion) say we would permanently stay in our locations. He said:

In these last days, in this our dispensation, we would become mature enough to stop running. We would become mature enough to plant our feet and our families and our foundations in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people permanently. Zion would be everywhere—wherever the Church is. And with that change—one of the mighty changes of the last days—we no longer think of Zion as where we are going to live; we think of it as how we are going to live.

Yes, we need to plant Zion in every nation, kindred, tongue and people! That, however, does not preclude the prophesied building of the New Jerusalem in Missouri. Nor does he say the New Jerusalem is in Utah. He simply points out that Brigham Young and the Saints came to Utah with the idea that they were not going to be "kicked out" of that place, like they had been in Kirtland, Missouri, and Nauvoo. This talk encourages us to become a Zion people.

[lemuel]

So it sounds like it was immaturity that caused migrations of the past? Immaturity caused Abraham to leave Ur? Or Lehi to leave Jerusalem?

[FreedomWorks]

In regards to Elder Holland's comment,
"And with that change—one of the mighty changes of the last days—
we no longer think of Zion as where we are going to live;
we think of it as how we are going to live."

How are we going to live to make Utah a Zion?

In my studies of the difference between Zion and it's nemesis Babylon, I've come to see how it all boils down to Pride & Humility. To make Utah into a Zion, we must repent of pride and embrace humility. If we are going to make Utah a Zion, we're going to have to move away from our pride-based social institutions (businesses, schools, governments, etc.) and replace them with humility-based ones. No small task, since Babylon's traditions are strong and deeply embedded in our culture.

The good news is that there are many examples of people today who have found ways to implement humility in economics, agriculture, education, and government. We just need to take building Zion seriously and not allow ourselves to be tempted by our "summer cottages in Babylon".

[DrJay]

As I read it, it seems that at the minimum there is a deemphasis of Zion as a location. While I will agree that there needs to be transformation in attitude, I wonder why there is no focus in fulfilling Josephs prophecy concerning the New Jerusalem? In many ways it seems the doctrine of Zion has been watered down.

[abelchirino]

I have been wondering about this too. I have even asked some leaders in my stake. I live in Houston. It is a big city and not one that you would like to be caught in during the great tribulation. One of my leaders said that he feels that the church (not necessarily the members) in Houston is prepared to survive the tribulation in Houston until further commandments are received.

I don't think that the prophecy of the New Jerusalem in Houston has been put aside.

Yet, the question is, when will the New Jerusalem be ready to fulfill its long awaited prophecy. I think that there are many references in the scriptures that talk about the mid-western side of the United States (Utah, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Idaho, part of Texas and a couple of other states around the region). Isaiah and many other prophets called this region "wilderness". They describe it as a barren, desert-like, mountainous region. Some of the prophecies of this region is that it would undergo a complete change. Many prophets saw different bodies of water, much vegetation and beautiful landscapes. Basically, the complete opposite than the desert it still is.

As a matter of fact, in different parts of this region, this prophecy has been fulfilled. Yet most importantly, this area will become a place of refuge. When I think of the many prophecies, I get the idea that this area will become a place of refuge before the New Jerusalem is even built. Now, Jesus Christ and many others say that there will be many desolate cities. Many of these desolate cities will certainly be found along the eastern side of the country. John Taylor said that he did not even see one dog in Missouri.

Another prophecy is that as different groups of people from all over the world (including many groups that have ancient traditions of a God telling them to do so) make their way to this region, there will be much necessity for housing. When this happens, these peoples will then travel and inhabit these desolate cities. That is why many have stipulated that perhaps, there will not be a massive nuclear holocaust in the United States as many think there will be. I believe that there will be at least one or two in the eastern coast but most of the depopulation that will occur in the country will come from plagues, pestilences, famines and natural disasters.

But like many of you, I am still confused. I want to pray about this.

[LDSguy]

IAfter reading these and others I have it makes me wonder what the true meaning of Zion is.

The word Zion has various meanings in the scriptures. The most general definition of the word is “the pure in heart” (D&C 97:21). Zion is often used in this way to refer to the Lord's people or to the Church and its stakes (see D&C 82:14). It has also been used to refer to specific geographical locations.

In the early days of this dispensation, Church leaders counseled members to build up Zion by emigrating to a central location. Today our leaders counsel us to build up Zion wherever we live. Members of the Church are asked to remain in their native lands and help establish the Church there. Many temples are being built so Latter-day Saints throughout the world can receive temple blessings.

The word Zion can also refer to specific geographic locations, as follows:

The city of Enoch (see Moses 7:18-21).

The ancient city of Jerusalem (see 2 Samuel 5:6–7; 1 Kings 8:1; 2 Kings 9:28).

The New Jerusalem, which will be built in Jackson County, Missouri (see D&C 45:66-67; 57:1-3; Articles of Faith 1:10).

So depending on context and historical timing Zion has various meanings.

Your 4x-great grandparents DID make it to Zion. For in 1848 Zion was in the Rocky Mountains as members were instructed to "emigrate to a central location." Today, Zion, for you, should be within the walls of your own home; be that Sandy Utah or Rio de Janeiro Brazil or Vladivostok Russia. And one day it WILL be in Independence Missouri, though I do not believe ALL righteous will live there or be called to build it up. We shall see

[DrJay]

While I believe deeply in Zion (ie the New Jerusalem) will be in Independence, I wonder at this time how much the LDS Church will be involved with its building. The Church has become so entrenched in Babylon and I only see it becoming worse each year. Brigham Young told the people of his day that if they didn't change, they would not make it back. Oh they changed, but it sure doesn't seem for the better.

If current statistics are an indicator, the people of the LDS Church (as a whole, not individually) seem to be so much further away from the faith that it would take to build Zion. However I have seen individuals that seem to be searching for the truths that were taught by Joseph that lead to eternal life. I believe it will be those (few in number) that will be lead by the Spirit to begin this work. That is exciting to me.

[rewcox]

During the tribulations, people will flee to the Rockies for safety. The area around Missiouri will become desolate.

Then those prepared will be sent to build the temple at New Jerusalem, sent by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

[hrac]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[DrJay]

If the LDS Church is to build up Zion in Independence, it must surely change. I don't see that happening presently other than becoming more worldly. I wish I was wrong, as I have loved the church all of my life, but I don't see any evidence of any positive change taking place. To me the idea that Zion is now everywhere, is an admittance to failure and giving up.

[rewcox]

If the LDS Church is to build up Zion in Independence, it must surely change. I don't see that happening presently other than becoming more worldly. I wish I was wrong, as I have loved the church all of my life, but I don't see any evidence of any positive change taking place. To me the idea that Zion is now everywhere, is an admittance to failure and giving up.

You have given up your position DrJay. Can't your Zion stand on it's own merits?

If you have need to call negative attention to other groups, whether they be Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Muslin, Buddist, LDS, etc., your position is weak. You and Roger Billings are both ex-LDS, which doesn't help your position either.

Or maybe you are trying to create some traffic...

[DrJay]

Actually just responding to the position that Zion will be built up by the LDS Church. That is obviously not my position. If the position was true (for the sake of discussion), I was pointing out that significant changes would need to take place from where the Church is today before Zion could be established. (Brigham Young said the same thing a lot of years ago) When I was LDS there was a fairly common attitude that all was well and it is going according to the Lord's plan.

My position is that Zion has already begun to be rebuilt. Those that are waiting for something to happen, will probably miss the event that they seek.

[friendsofthe]

Interesting that this thread has been going on for all these months and today was the first time visited it. In the second post of this thread my book “A Year With No Rainbow” is mentioned by 7cylon7, he posted:

http://www.ayearwithnorainbow.com/Book% ... %20pdf.pdf

That will answer all your questions. In short, the appearances are as follows:

1. Christ appears first at AOA.
2. Christ appears to the saints at NJ.
3. Christ appears to the Jews at OJ.
4. Christ appears to the whole world in Glory.

You have taken your first step into a larger world.

Well, I’ve got news for you, there is a serious flaw in the four appearance concept of the Second Coming. One of these so-called appearances isn’t an appearance at all. Problem is that for the most part we members of the church have some fundamentally incorrect ideas about the New Jerusalem and how it relates to the Second Coming. Our wrong ideas have come form some notable and oft quoted scholars in the church and a misunderstanding of some basic scriptural passages.

I can’t lay it all out for you in a single post, I’m writing another book for that purpose but as I get time I’ll come back to this thread and share some ideas that will serve as food for thought.

[Zowieink]

IMO with have years yet before the Savior comes, maybe decades. President Eyring mentioned in the televised stake conference a few years ago that the Phoenix Metro area would become a place of safety and refuge. Not all of us are going to be called to New Jerusalem. Those that are left will maintain order and keep things going. If SLC has a major earthquake, it may not be livable for awhile. This area seems like the perfect place to set things up until SLC is back on its feet (probably years to complete). In that time period we will have physical calamities, plagues, economic collapse, etc. etc. The Arizona area is pretty safe as compared to other areas in the country (no earthquakes, no huge storms, tornados, hurricanes, etc. but we have a water problem and heat, otherwise a pretty safe place to be in the tribulations to come.

I can't imagine 100 million members of the Church in New Jerusalem, right at the get-go. We will repopulate the old US and spread and gather in all those who are pure in heart. Those areas will be protected by the Holy Ghost so that others will look from afar and be afraid. At some point, the oceans will become unsafe to travel by sea or air. North/South America will be the first to be regenerated with the governing point at New Jerusalem. In reading Daniel, Nephi, Brigham Young, etc. we will come and rejuvenate the cities/towns that are wrecked until the Kingdom of God is establish throughout and those that will join, have done so....then come the nasties at the very end.