POLL: How Much Time Does America Really Have Left?

[AngelPalmoni]

Denial, Sarcasm, Friendly Hostility, This is so much fun! The simple lack of willingness to even begin to accept or understand another's opinion is so refreshing.

I know the man who created the scrolls, just pm or email me if you have questions.

[friendsofthe]

AP Wrote:
I know the man who created the scrolls, just pm or email me if you have questions.

Does he read this forum?

[AngelPalmoni]

I don't think he's ever touched a computer lol...

[shadow]

Daniel could see the future in minutia, but couldn't see the calendar being used in the future for the people that the prophecies would be fulfilled for.

Are you guys on a first name basis? Tell him Hi for me.

The reality is that he was a prophet and saw whatever it was the Lord showed him in whatever detail the Lord showed it in, calendars included.

[Jason]

Daniel could see the future in minutia, but couldn't see the calendar being used in the future for the people that the prophecies would be fulfilled for.

Are you guys on a first name basis? Tell him Hi for me.

The reality is that he was a prophet and saw whatever it was the Lord showed him in whatever detail the Lord showed it in, calendars included.

Couple thousand years of what kingdom will rule for exactly how long....truly a magnificent peak into God's foresight.

[dlbww]

.

[AngelPalmoni]

D&C 88:79 Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms

D&C 99:53 And, verily I say unto you, that it is my will that you should hasten to translate my scriptures, and to obtain a knowledge of history, and of countries, and of kingdoms, of laws of God and man, and all this for the salvation of Zion. Amen.

Basically this is what the Scrolls attempt to do.

[Squally]

Daniel could see the future in minutia, but couldn't see the calendar being used in the future for the people that the prophecies would be fulfilled for.

Are you guys on a first name basis? Tell him Hi for me.

The reality is that he was a prophet and saw whatever it was the Lord showed him in whatever detail the Lord showed it in, calendars included.

)
yes, his first name is Daniel.

I was being sarcastic about Daniel not being able to know what calendar we would be using in the last days. Daniel could see anything the Lord desired him to see, even including the current calendar system being used. So I actually wasn't disagreeing with you!

[AngelPalmoni]

Ya D&C 77:7 was written for gregorian, I think other calendars can be used for other events and dates. The author has studied and tried to use every calendar system. Of course you need to know the conversions to find start dates and historical events.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

We're from the camp that says "upon my house" until it is cleansed and then Zion has to be formed by gathering for a safe place while America (the Gentiles) get theirs. That's gonna take some time. But we think the upon my house is at our doors (methinks I see some toes under the door crack), so our vote is 11-15 years. The early saints were chastened for 17 years before they got out of the cauldron, even if we have that we're still looking at an 8 year chastening. It has to be long enough to weed out the wolves among us and the fair weather campers. That isn't going to happen in a month or a year or even a few years.

[BroJones]

D&C 88:79 Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms

D&C 99:53 And, verily I say unto you, that it is my will that you should hasten to translate my scriptures, and to obtain a knowledge of history, and of countries, and of kingdoms, of laws of God and man, and all this for the salvation of Zion. Amen.

Basically this is what the Scrolls attempt to do.

Interesting, would like to see the Scrolls I guess. Can someone provide a POINTER or link to these scrolls? (sorry, haven't read the entire thread)

[NoGreaterLove]

D&C 88:79 Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms

D&C 99:53 And, verily I say unto you, that it is my will that you should hasten to translate my scriptures, and to obtain a knowledge of history, and of countries, and of kingdoms, of laws of God and man, and all this for the salvation of Zion. Amen.

Basically this is what the Scrolls attempt to do.

Interesting, would like to see the Scrolls I guess. Can someone provide a POINTER or link to these scrolls? (sorry, haven't read the entire thread)

I think he is referring to the scrolls he wrote?

[Jason]

D&C 88:79 Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms

D&C 99:53 And, verily I say unto you, that it is my will that you should hasten to translate my scriptures, and to obtain a knowledge of history, and of countries, and of kingdoms, of laws of God and man, and all this for the salvation of Zion. Amen.

Basically this is what the Scrolls attempt to do.

Interesting, would like to see the Scrolls I guess. Can someone provide a POINTER or link to these scrolls? (sorry, haven't read the entire thread)

I think he is referring to the scrolls he wrote?

He didn't write them.

[Jason]

D&C 88:79 Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms

D&C 99:53 And, verily I say unto you, that it is my will that you should hasten to translate my scriptures, and to obtain a knowledge of history, and of countries, and of kingdoms, of laws of God and man, and all this for the salvation of Zion. Amen.

Basically this is what the Scrolls attempt to do.

Interesting, would like to see the Scrolls I guess. Can someone provide a POINTER or link to these scrolls? (sorry, haven't read the entire thread)

Here's the link to the list which links out the Gigapan versions...
http://scripturalsecrets.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Jason]

We're from the camp that says "upon my house" until it is cleansed and then Zion has to be formed by gathering for a safe place while America (the Gentiles) get theirs. That's gonna take some time. But we think the upon my house is at our doors (methinks I see some toes under the door crack), so our vote is 11-15 years. The early saints were chastened for 17 years before they got out of the cauldron, even if we have that we're still looking at an 8 year chastening. It has to be long enough to weed out the wolves among us and the fair weather campers. That isn't going to happen in a month or a year or even a few years.

The early saints were pretty independent and provided for themselves like 99% of the people from that era. I believe the reality today is that most will not last more than a couple of weeks with any major disruption of the stretched and razor thin food supply chain. Most saints even with a year's supply....would also be wiped out in the process if they are not sealed up in some manner in their arks (to protect them from those that would just take and destroy). Which brings up the plague....and that could clean house in a matter of days/weeks. Those left after its all over won't have a cake walk....and if the prophesied 1260 days or 3 1/2 years prior to Christ's arrival works out to a couple years of severe tribulation...you'll see a night/day difference in the people and it won't take anywhere near 8 to 17 years. Nor would the people survive it all if the time isn't shortened as prophesied....

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

I guess I should articulate my position a little better. I think that the U.S. will continue on this path without MAJOR disruption while we are being cleansed from within. That cleansing I do NOT see as needing food storage or iodine pills etc... I see it as persecution and division within and without, a split in the church and huge external pressures. That will take years and likely really peak perhaps even a decade from now or more, or less... After that and maybe more so because of that (The Gentiles rejecting the truth) the missionaries will be called home (likely much to their relief as the persecution likely wont be much fun for they the most obvious symbol of our faith to many), and the Lord will gather us and "preach His own sermons." Then will be the time for food storage and we will be gathered into stakes (not wards, not branches, not regions, not one, STAKES), and they will despise us but nevertheless eventually come to us for help, broken and humbled, and then we will be tried with sharing with them and then will we truly know what it means to be a savior on Mount Zion as we mercifully and tenderly care for our enemies as Christ does His (which pretty much is all of us on Earth, that being the condescension of the perfect Christ).

That's how I read the many prophecies and scriptures and that in my estimation is going to take time. At least 3 years I would say before our chastening is done (extremely wishful thinking) and more likely 7 or more. That is until the beginning of the end for the gentiles (which end will take years and years and leave but few alive as it will truly be apocalyptic for those not PRE-pared).

[LDSguy]

I guess I should articulate my position a little better. I think that the U.S. will continue on this path without MAJOR disruption while we are being cleansed from within. That cleansing I do NOT see as needing food storage or iodine pills etc... I see it as persecution and division within and without, a split in the church and huge external pressures. That will take years and likely really peak perhaps even a decade from now or more, or less... After that and maybe more so because of that (The Gentiles rejecting the truth) the missionaries will be called home (likely much to their relief as the persecution likely wont be much fun for they the most obvious symbol of our faith to many), and the Lord will gather us and "preach His own sermons." Then will be the time for food storage and we will be gathered into stakes (not wards, not branches, not regions, not one, STAKES), and they will despise us but nevertheless eventually come to us for help, broken and humbled, and then we will be tried with sharing with them and then will we truly know what it means to be a savior on Mount Zion as we mercifully and tenderly care for our enemies as Christ does His (which pretty much is all of us on Earth, that being the condescension of the perfect Christ).

That's how I read the many prophecies and scriptures and that in my estimation is going to take time. At least 3 years I would say before our chastening is done (extremely wishful thinking) and more likely 7 or more. That is until the beginning of the end for the gentiles (which end will take years and years and leave but few alive as it will truly be apocalyptic for those not PRE-pared).

so what was your vote?

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

We voted 11-15 years as a best guess for the above to be fulfilled.

[LDSguy]

We voted 11-15 years as a best guess for the above to be fulfilled.

I did initially but then I switched it to 16-20.

[Original_Intent]

I guess I should articulate my position a little better. I think that the U.S. will continue on this path without MAJOR disruption while we are being cleansed from within. That cleansing I do NOT see as needing food storage or iodine pills etc... I see it as persecution and division within and without, a split in the church and huge external pressures. That will take years and likely really peak perhaps even a decade from now or more, or less... After that and maybe more so because of that (The Gentiles rejecting the truth) the missionaries will be called home (likely much to their relief as the persecution likely wont be much fun for they the most obvious symbol of our faith to many), and the Lord will gather us and "preach His own sermons." Then will be the time for food storage and we will be gathered into stakes (not wards, not branches, not regions, not one, STAKES), and they will despise us but nevertheless eventually come to us for help, broken and humbled, and then we will be tried with sharing with them and then will we truly know what it means to be a savior on Mount Zion as we mercifully and tenderly care for our enemies as Christ does His (which pretty much is all of us on Earth, that being the condescension of the perfect Christ).

That's how I read the many prophecies and scriptures and that in my estimation is going to take time. At least 3 years I would say before our chastening is done (extremely wishful thinking) and more likely 7 or more. That is until the beginning of the end for the gentiles (which end will take years and years and leave but few alive as it will truly be apocalyptic for those not PRE-pared).

Pretty similar to my own outlook - mine is a bit faster and I consider that our 7 years of chastening began in 2008 but will be MUCH worse during the latter 4 years than it was during the first 3. I really had not taken into account the missionaries being called home, but I agree with you that may yet be a while. I think the division of the church and the inner and outer persecutions are going to come about over a short period of time. I speculate that possibly the division within the church might be over a war, or a stricter 1st presidency in regards to hard line on LGBT and/or abortion. Possibly multiple issues. Your time frame is likely more accurate as I always expect things to happen sooner than they do.

[Jason]

We voted 11-15 years as a best guess for the above to be fulfilled.

I did initially but then I switched it to 16-20.

fyi - at our current rate of growth in the SNAP program (food stamps - currently at 14.99% of the population)
http://www.fns.usda.gov/pd/SNAPmain.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

....over 1/4 of the population will be on food stamps (JPMorgan Chase cards for daily bread) in less than 5 years.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

Never underestimate the ability to dig ourselves out. Look at Weimar.

A possible scenario I could see playing out would be a Newt presidency, massive deregulation, free market free for all. Get rid of the EPA and corresponding agencies and commitments and then resource extraction and utilization could go through the roof and speculative prosperity would soar and put the housing boom or Dotcom boom to shame.

It would create an unparalleled ease in Zion (especially since we tend to espouse complete deregulation and free markets, the more free the better). We judge that the political social will isn't there to ever allow such, but I'm not so sure once our back is hard enough against the wall. It could happen and it would be much uglier than the slow continual descent we see now.

That our nation survives at all at this point is miraculous. Everything is 180 degrees out.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

As to the separation within the church my best guess would be that government will force the gay/women's rights issue (among others but especially), until a body of the church caves to the many "saints" and New Order Mormons etc... who clamor for inclusiveness and diversity (gay marriages and women in the priesthood, temple open to all etc...). I could see the temples shut down for a time as many have postulated when/if we refused to perform both straight and gay ceremonies or allow all in. And I could see a division forming where one group would say that it was better to cave and have the work go on and the division would go right up the center and into the twelve. Courts would settle ownership rights and the faithful would largely be dispossessed of the much coveted wealth of the church and it's buildings etc... as the gadianton courts would rule against us. Then we would gather together into stakes (for lots of good reasons) and then things would begin to come down.

Of course these are just two different perhaps implausible scenarios, both of which i think illustrate a somewhat drawn out timeline.

[Jason]

Never underestimate the ability to dig ourselves out. Look at Weimar.

A possible scenario I could see playing out would be a Newt presidency, massive deregulation, free market free for all. Get rid of the EPA and corresponding agencies and commitments and then resource extraction and utilization could go through the roof and speculative prosperity would soar and put the housing boom or Dotcom boom to shame.

It would create an unparalleled ease in Zion (especially since we tend to espouse complete deregulation and free markets, the more free the better). We judge that the political social will isn't there to ever allow such, but I'm not so sure once our back is hard enough against the wall. It could happen and it would be much uglier than the slow continual descent we see now.

That our nation survives at all at this point is miraculous. Everything is 180 degrees out.

Well absent debt forgiveness on a massive scale (or free money printed in massive quantities).....the economy is in a death spiral. Food stamps are just one tiny statistic out of many (state unemployment borrowing, unemployment levels, 1/3 of state budgets coming from Federal Government, interest on national debt, interest levels on state debt, credit cards, student loans, continued decline in housing values, etc etc etc)....all collapsing demand which is most evident in gasoline which the US is now exporting for the 1st time in like 40+ years.

I anticipate that the economy will collapse within 18 months without any outside influence (natural disasters, Sun, EMP, wars, judgements of God, plague, etc etc etc)....just from the sheer levels of debt (saturated) and the destruction of money in circulation as money is paid back and destroyed.....all while new debt continues to decline. We are seeing it happen in Europe right now.

This economic collapse brings about the transition of ownership of assets....and the corresponding war for control. This is being stimulated (OWS) in order to push it in stages and test controls. There is certainly political social will to allow such implementation of control (the iron fist)....but on the flip side there is significant levels of wickedness (selfishness) to resist such attempts. Again this is a war....in which we are just beginning to see the opening shots fired. I expect it to play out over the next 18 months.

[jonesde]

As to the separation within the church my best guess would be that government will force the gay/women's rights issue (among others but especially), until a body of the church caves to the many "saints" and New Order Mormons etc... who clamor for inclusiveness and diversity (gay marriages and women in the priesthood, temple open to all etc...). I could see the temples shut down for a time as many have postulated when/if we refused to perform both straight and gay ceremonies or allow all in. And I could see a division forming where one group would say that it was better to cave and have the work go on and the division would go right up the center and into the twelve. Courts would settle ownership rights and the faithful would largely be dispossessed of the much coveted wealth of the church and it's buildings etc... as the gadianton courts would rule against us. Then we would gather together into stakes (for lots of good reasons) and then things would begin to come down.

Of course these are just two different perhaps implausible scenarios, both of which i think illustrate a somewhat drawn out timeline.

I agree, if things were reformed (or deformed...) sufficiently to open up marketplaces without a massive parasite sucking the life out of the system, then things could recover. Jason mentioned issues with the enormous debt load in the USA, both public and private, and that is certainly an issue but in a prosperous market we could probably handle it.

The problem is, shutting down social programs and deregulating is NEVER going to happen. We're well past the point where over 50% of the population benefits from large government programs (from welfare, as govt employees, as govt contractors, etc), and they tend to be the more active in government. Even in a "democratic" referendum chances are almost nil that a vote for reducing the size of government would succeed.

On USDebtClock.org they have some interesting numbers. Federal, state, and local govt combined spend about $7 trillion anualy, which is over 46% of GDP. If you divided just the expenses of govt among the national work force (which includes govt employees/contractors/etc) it would be enough to give each worker about $50k per year.

If you add interest paid to government expenses you get around $10.7 trillion, which is around 70% of GDP. That means that only (or at most) 30% of GDP goes to actual production of goods and services that people use now and will voluntarily pay for.

If that was 100%, or even 90%, instead of 30%.... yeah it would be amazing.

However, too many are on the dole. They live easy on other people's efforts transferred to them by the violence of government, and it's just WAY too good to let go of. It ain't gonna happen.

Heck, I bet quite a number of people on these forums, who are aware of our country's awful situation, wonder what would happen if government totally stopped stealing from some people to give to others (and of course keep a fair share of it for themselves), and are opposed to it happening.

What would happen if social security, medicare/medicaid, food stamps, most of military spending (employment, contracting, buying things that go boom), and the majority of government employment (currently around 20 million people in the country) was gone? How many of us rely on that enough that we would be ruined?

Personally I don't get a penny of it, and don't ever expect to even be able to. However, I do know people who rely on this, and in some cases because govt has stolen so much from them that they have no choice but to support additional theft on their behalf to survive.

How in heaven or hell will we ever roll all of that back?