POLL: How Much Time Does America Really Have Left?

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

Do you feel like you are robbing when you take from others hard-earned money?

Do you?

I consider what i receive extremely poor compensation for what has been stolen by way of opportunity.

[Still Learning]

he uses government to do so...and very successfully.

And my point was that that is the fault of individuals. whom are lead by satan.

Our government isn't real FWIW, it's just made up of people, paper, and empty buildings. My kids sometimes ask who the government is, "is he the government." Nope you are, you're the government. If you're not holding the gun, serving the papers, etc... who is? LOVE IT! A person accountable for their own actions. We in the "freedom movement" love Jury Nullification, but really whats the difference? We are all responsible for our own actions and could change the system if we nullified the bad bits. Most here have watched the plea to law enforcement to do just that. In the end Zion will be formed by individual action not apathy. And not by what anybodies neighbor (seen or unseen) "made" him do.

[jonesde]

And I have to ask where this mythical productive element of the economy is? I guess it depends on how you define productivity. If you define it by a return of dollars well, that is a system that establishes virtue based upon money AKA mammon worship. Money does not = righteousness nor good, nor productive etc... Many lay men are extremely productive and yet paupers. The world could scarcely compensate Elisabeth for what she did in the wilderness by way of raising John the Baptist. Was she productive? God makes coins appear in the mouths of fishes, he makes manna in the wilderness (trust me I've tasted of it). And He asks what He asks in return. The kicker is that it's about impossible without glancing at the records kept by angels to tell who is and isn't really productive.

Sorry, I wasn't using the term "productive" in the way economists use it, or in the way you define here. I suppose by your definition any activity could be termed productive... heck by breathing I produce CO2, so I'm being productive!

When you make thing (food, clothing, vehicles, houses, toys, whatever) you are producing and increasing the standard of living for yourself and others. When you use the stuff you are consuming.

There are some that produce more than they consume, and some that consume more than they produce... which is more helpful to a society and to their fellow man?

[jonesde]

Do you feel like you are robbing when you take from others hard-earned money?

Do you?

I consider what i receive extremely poor compensation for what has been stolen by way of opportunity.

How does one steal opportunity? Do you mean something like competition as stealing opportunity, like someone offering something better or cheaper or in any way more inline with what the consumer wants?

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

Ideal that we should care for one another, but in what reality has that been history? The industrial revolution made wealth inequality greater than ever ground people up and spit them out.

We, every one of us looks at the opportunities available to us and then makes the most out of what we have available. That's why so many hear speak of not qualifying for welfare benefits, because they have all looked into it and/or applied.

When did masochism become a virtue? I recall a statement by President Kimball “Rather than work again as an employee, I would set up a peanut stand on the corner.”

[jonesde]

Do you feel robbed when you pay fast offerings? Of the opportunity to individually assist and feel of the spirit of giving? Why can you not feel the same way about paying taxes (especially when such a large percentage goes for just that)?

I don't feel robbed when paying fast offerings because I choose to do so. I do feel robbed when I am taxed and the government uses it for evil purposes. They take away from he who earned and give to themselves and those that didn't earn it. Not that I am against taxes completely. In a perfect world we wouldn't need to tax because we would give freely. Do you feel like you are robbing when you take from others hard-earned money? That in essence is giving in to satan's plan. Oops. Now I got in the argument. I actually think you made a good point in saying that these programs CAN BE good, but the are controlled by corruption. I wanted to just show that by forcing people to give into these programs (taxes) the government is doing the giving...not us. Fast offerings are not forced upon us. We are asked to give generously and I gladly do. I love helping others, especially needy in my ward. That makes it personal...governement makes it very impersonal. If the government had 1 system of fast offerings rather than a bunch of corrupt leaders taking for themselves it would be different. The church welfare system is setup not to let people sit receiving benefits forever. They help while you are down and assist you to help yourself to make your own life better. i.e. employment. Governement simply creates dependence.

Exactly. The difference between voluntary and loving giving, and taking by threat of violence, is huge in both the way it is done and in the results. Both involve "charity", but one involves giving and the other taking... one is the way Christ taught, and the other is not.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

Sorry, I wasn't using the term "productive" in the way economists use it, or in the way you define here. I suppose by your definition any activity could be termed productive... heck by breathing I produce CO2, so I'm being productive!

When you make thing (food, clothing, vehicles, houses, toys, whatever) you are producing and increasing the standard of living for yourself and others. When you use the stuff you are consuming.

Better chuck the prophet then as well as anyone not in manufacturing or agriculture!

There are some that produce more than they consume, and some that consume more than they produce... which is more helpful to a society and to their fellow man?

Depends on how you define produce. Would you rather have has a sewing machine manufacturer or prophet in 1820? I would say that the fruits of the First Vision were rather productive and beyond man's ability to quantify and measure against the next man.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

How does one steal opportunity? Do you mean something like competition as stealing opportunity, like someone offering something better or cheaper or in any way more inline with what the consumer wants?

You lock up natural resources.

[Still Learning]

This is changing the subject, but it brought to mind a conversation I recently had with a friend. Retirement. Our society has it pounded in head that when you turn 65 you no longer should have to work. Is that divinely inspired? I think it is not. Man was meant to work. I find it almost humorous that if we don't get at least 2 weeks paid vacation or sick pay or if we don't get a vacation every year or go boating on weekends.........that we are somehow cheated. Never before in the history of the world has this mentality existed to my knowledge. Man should work. Fun is ok too, but we have had excess fun and now find ourselves paying for it. How many vacations do you think Moses had? Just another sense of entitlement if you ask me.

[jonesde]

Now you might at this point believe that the government can save the day by borrowing....but this also is impossible as every dollar borrowed by the government still comes with an obligation via the people....which ultimately means every dollar borrowed by the government only robs a dollar (or more with interest and plenty of middlemen hands) from the private side. We see evidence of this from 2008 to the present in which the government borrowed over roughly $3 trillion but the total debt collapsed by over $2 trillion meaning the private side took a loss of over $5 trillion.

As I've stated numerous times before....we are in deflation. I also think a massive deflationary spiral will be our endpoint. I will change my opinion when I see evidence of vast amounts of debt-free money being given to the masses.....or vast scale of debt forgiveness (releasing people from debt obligations while letting them keep ownership of their productive assets).

From the debt default perspective I agree with you Jason, we are experiencing deflation. Private debt load in the USA is going down, some due to default and some due to paying down, and that certainly reduces the money supply.

What if government debt is increasing faster than private debt is going down? Wouldn't that mean the money supply is still growing (even if though an unproductive organization that reduces instead of increases standard of living)?

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

I'll give you that taxes are taken out and fast offerings put in the envelope yourself, but both are produced by way of consequence backed with threats of dire circumstance. How you pay either is entirely up to you. Neither witnesses the charitable receipt of goods but then our admonition is to let not the right hand know what the left hand doeth.

The real difference is in you and your support for one program and not the other. As you have stated you have negative feelings for the recipients of government welfare but feel good about helping via fast offerings. It's not the paycheck or bank or envelope or representative that does it, it's you and your own perception forged positively by yourself in choosing to believe what you have.

[Still Learning]

I'll give you that taxes are taken out and fast offerings put in the envelope yourself, but both are produced by way of consequence backed with threats of dire circumstance. How you pay either is entirely up to you. Neither witnesses the charitable receipt of goods but then our admonition is to let not the right hand know what the left hand doeth.

The real difference is in you and your support for one program and not the other. As you have stated you have negative feelings for the recipients of government welfare but feel good about helping via fast offerings. It's not the paycheck or bank or envelope or representative that does it, it's you and your own perception forged positively by yourself in choosing to believe what you have.

For me it's the fact that one is ordained of God and the other is not. One takes and the other asks. It isn't just perception, it is a reality that government has the power to take away. One creates dependence and the other doesn't allow that.

This article posted on another thread sums up my view.
http://www.mormonchronicle.com/the-comi ... exclusive/

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

This is changing the subject, but it brought to mind a conversation I recently had with a friend. Retirement. Our society has it pounded in head that when you turn 65 you no longer should have to work. Is that divinely inspired? I think it is not. Man was meant to work. I find it almost humorous that if we don't get at least 2 weeks paid vacation or sick pay or if we don't get a vacation every year or go boating on weekends.........that we are somehow cheated. Never before in the history of the world has this mentality existed to my knowledge. Man should work. Fun is ok too, but we have had excess fun and now find ourselves paying for it. How many vacations do you think Moses had? Just another sense of entitlement if you ask me.

Agreed, the scriptures never mention retirement. But then "work" is another word dying for a definition.

[Still Learning]

This is changing the subject, but it brought to mind a conversation I recently had with a friend. Retirement. Our society has it pounded in head that when you turn 65 you no longer should have to work. Is that divinely inspired? I think it is not. Man was meant to work. I find it almost humorous that if we don't get at least 2 weeks paid vacation or sick pay or if we don't get a vacation every year or go boating on weekends.........that we are somehow cheated. Never before in the history of the world has this mentality existed to my knowledge. Man should work. Fun is ok too, but we have had excess fun and now find ourselves paying for it. How many vacations do you think Moses had? Just another sense of entitlement if you ask me.

Agreed, the scriptures never mention retirement. But then "work" is another word dying for a definition.

I would define it "by the sweat of thy brow"

[jonesde]

How does one steal opportunity? Do you mean something like competition as stealing opportunity, like someone offering something better or cheaper or in any way more inline with what the consumer wants?

You lock up natural resources.

Very good point. On this I think we can agree.

One modern example is real estate, particularly land. The prices have gone up so much faster than wages (most goods and services actually) in the last 30 years that you now have to be somewhat wealthy to just "live off the land". It's insane!

There is SO much land that is held by people not using, and SO many people who would like to use it (even to produce things beyond caring for themselves) but can't afford it.

This is a great example of what happens when governments interfere with specific market. In this case government have been interfering for a LONG time, but they really ramped it up in the early 70s, the early 80s, and then in the last 90s through the crash starting in 2005 (didn't really hit for most people until 2007). You can see the direct effects of this with real estate price graphs. I just looked with google real quick and found an interesting graph that is relative to inflation, which is a very interesting way to look at real estate prices:

http://articles.businessinsider.com/200 ... ing-market" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That said, there are opportunities, not as many as decades ago or even a 3-4 years ago, but they exist. I'm working twice as much and making half as much, and that's rough, but I have enough for my needs at least... which is actually miraculous given how bad '09 and '10 were. I do have the fantasy of letting it all go and living off the land... but I'm not nearly wealthy enough for that.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

For me it's the fact that one is ordained of God and the other is not. One takes and the other asks. It isn't just perception, it is a reality that government has the power to take away. One creates dependence and the other doesn't allow that.

And I have to take issue with that. On my mission I met more than a few people dependent on church welfare. God ordained government, heck He ordained this government (certainly not the current manifestation). He granted some limited authority to government and as with Israel this has at times included welfare systems (and will obviously again if you read the D&C). The system cannot create dependence. It isn't flesh and blood. People may of their own free will and choice become dependent, but the system cannot force anyone to devalue their prospects and opportunities. Make them a better offer! If the system is so lame that there isn't any opportunity for them aside from working in the proverbial salt mines or welfare (which is so lovely and glamorous as to lure anybody in) then I point to the economy/system/people that create that reality and blame them and seek redress from them.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

I would define it "by the sweat of thy brow"

Ahh you troublemaker! You rabble rouser! That opens a can of worms. But I agree with you and wish to point out that the people God asks us to care for are incapable of that or better occupied like mothers and that "Eve his wife, labored with him." Nobody able is exempt from physical toil and I believe that everyone able is under condemnation if they don't garden like in Mosiah where even the King labored for his own support. Everyone was meant to physically toil and sweat for his living. I think this is the answer to a lot of Zion questions like artists. They must labor for their own support which in decent conditions as Brigham Young stated would only of necessity occupy 2 hours a day and Henry David Thoreau said could be accomplished "with his left hand at odd hours." Then they would have plenty of time (as farmers often do) for their artful endeavors.

[jonesde]

I'll give you that taxes are taken out and fast offerings put in the envelope yourself, but both are produced by way of consequence backed with threats of dire circumstance. How you pay either is entirely up to you. Neither witnesses the charitable receipt of goods but then our admonition is to let not the right hand know what the left hand doeth.

The real difference is in you and your support for one program and not the other. As you have stated you have negative feelings for the recipients of government welfare but feel good about helping via fast offerings. It's not the paycheck or bank or envelope or representative that does it, it's you and your own perception forged positively by yourself in choosing to believe what you have.

Tithing and charity are not backed with threats, at least not the way I look at it. Wow, what a burden to think of it that way... that would be rough.

I don't subscribe to the modern "Christian" believe of heaven and hell. I believe in the LDS teaching of three degrees of glory, and that even the lowest is better than earth. I believe that God rewards us for doing good things and there are natural consequences for bad things, and even those he tries to help us with.

If you pay tithing and help other people it may help you reach a higher degree of glory (if you don't mess up too many other things), if you don't you lose out on that opportunity... but I wouldn't call that "threats of dire circumstance".

I guess I've changed to think of the Telestial Kingdom as a given (unless I work my way up and THEN really really mess up) and I can work my way up from there, as opposed to thinking of the Celestial Kingdom as the minimum acceptable and anything else is hell (which is what I believed when I was younger, and what seemed to be often taught in church). With that way of looking at it I think a lot more about actively doing good, and am less focused on just not doing bad. I also realize that I'm imperfect and certainly not Celestial Kingdom material yet, in spite of mission and temple experiences, and it's going to take some time to get there... if I make it at all... I accept I have a lot to do and to change and to refine in myself and help others do the same. Anyone who thinks that the Celestial Kingdom is a given because of covenants without working hard on those is setting themselves up for disappointment.

[Still Learning]

I would define it "by the sweat of thy brow"

Ahh you troublemaker! You rabble rouser! That opens a can of worms. But I agree with you and wish to point out that the people God asks us to care for are incapable of that Agreed!or better occupied like mothers and that "Eve his wife, labored with him." Nobody able is exempt from physical toil True, not even 8 month pregnant women having to canoe ) and I believe that everyone able is under condemnation if they don't garden like in Mosiah where even the King labored for his own support. Everyone was meant to physically toil and sweat for his living. I think this is the answer to a lot of Zion questions like artists. They must labor for their own support which in decent conditions as Brigham Young stated would only of necessity occupy 2 hours a day and Henry David Thoreau said could be accomplished "with his left hand at odd hours." Then they would have plenty of time (as farmers often do) for their artful endeavors.

[jonesde]

Sorry, I wasn't using the term "productive" in the way economists use it, or in the way you define here. I suppose by your definition any activity could be termed productive... heck by breathing I produce CO2, so I'm being productive!

When you make thing (food, clothing, vehicles, houses, toys, whatever) you are producing and increasing the standard of living for yourself and others. When you use the stuff you are consuming.

Better chuck the prophet then as well as anyone not in manufacturing or agriculture!

There are some that produce more than they consume, and some that consume more than they produce... which is more helpful to a society and to their fellow man?

Depends on how you define produce. Would you rather have has a sewing machine manufacturer or prophet in 1820? I would say that the fruits of the First Vision were rather productive and beyond man's ability to quantify and measure against the next man.

Both historically and in modern times prophets were expected to work and be productive, at least up until they are called to be a prophet. After that they are sometimes commanded to only do God's work, but even Joseph Smith had to do an awful lot of productive work to have enough for his needs. These days the church is sufficiently organized and has enough resources to care for them and allow them to do that. Historically it took a little faith and charity, and God did often provide for those men.

Still, what does that have to do with an economy or with welfare? The percentage of the population called as profits is so small it's a rounding error, modernly and historically. The LDS Church is actually a good example of this: nearly all positions are unpaid, and people are expected to be productive and work.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

I would hope that only from this discussion alone you could see what is lost to our economy by putting me in a box (yes I take plenty of responsibility for everything related to my life, but I'm also honest). I see talents everywhere wasted and lives of quiet desperation being lived out behind screens.

Just read this forum like the Dr, Jones energy patent thread for instance. Patents are a joke. Did you know I actually invented the waterproof disposable camera? I didn't patent it just gave the idea away for free, and it took about two years from sending my letter before they hit the marketplace, but I did. I actually had a blog for a while giving away free patent ideas including one that I noticed in the marketplace not too long ago. Patents are rightfully described by Will Malloff thusly "too soon I learned that a patent is not really protection but a license for litigation."

If Southeast, Alaska were a state it would be 80% Federal land. Not long ago you could mine small scale. Utah is covered with old mines many of which eluded the programs to destroy them. They were started by an individual or two with a shovel and pick axe. Now it takes millions in studies and permitting to get near a decision that isn't likely to go in your favor and the little guy is out and the global multi-national limited liability corp runs the show. Farms are going the same way. Cars same deal. I could build a cool vehicle but it would never meet the stringent requirements of government and consequently I can't buy a new (old model) anything because it is illegal to manufacture them anymore. The U.S. Constitution provided for post roads and military defenses, but aside from that the lands were supposed to be transferred to private hands within a reasonable time-frame. Things like the Louisiana purchase complicated that and so now we're stuck with a sea of locked up natural resources. I can apply for permitting to extract plants or minerals from Federal (owned in common in theory) lands, but when we tried to we were told we didn't have a prayer of getting a permit to pick and sell one blueberry from federal or state lands. Homesteading is dead. Heck you have to pay to even visit half of our commons! I could go on all day about this all (and have).

I assure you that any compensation I have ever received is extremely poor returns on what was taken by the very same individuals pushing both sides of the coin! We all do the best we can for ourselves and families and I for one could stand confidently (and do) before God this day and account for my part in it.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

but I wouldn't call that "threats of dire circumstance".

Burning at His coming doesn't qualify as a threat of dire circumstance? To quote my favorite movie (Paint Your Wagon) if you don't call that (a threat of dire circumstance) what the heck do you consider (a threat of dire circumstance!)?

By and in large I agree with your assessment of heaven. But a great many will be forced into hell to atone for their own sins. That sounds pretty harsh to me even if they then get to return to one of the "better than earth" places.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

jonesde, you're mincing your "work" with "work." Joseph Smith was a failure at "work" and a moocher if you chose to look at it that way. But then there are a lot of special cases to name.

If you can't see what work has to do with the economy or welfare I am baffled. And it has everything to do with "productivity" and is extremely relevant to judging somebody on the matter!

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

Being pregnant is work in and of itself, sweat of brow hard physical work. For the record she didn't have to do anything, I married her on that premise. She chose to help move a claw foot tub via canoe. In reality she mostly helped stabilize it as it was rather top heavy across the gunnels.

[jonesde]

jonesde, you're mincing your "work" with "work." Joseph Smith was a failure at "work" and a moocher if you chose to look at it that way. But then there are a lot of special cases to name.

If you can't see what work has to do with the economy or welfare I am baffled. And it has everything to do with "productivity" and is extremely relevant to judging somebody on the matter!

Wow, please read more carefully. I don't see what prophets not working because God provides for them has to with the economy or welfare. Those men are an extremely small minority... we can't all live that way.

Or are you saying you are a prophet, called by God to not work? If so, my bad... I misunderstood.