The Son of Perdition Sitting in the Temple...

[Stephen]

Missionaries the world over use the following scripture to show that there was an apostasy...

2 Thes 2:1-3

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Rightfully so they point out that Christ coming in His glory would not happen until after such an apostasy would take place. What they don't offer is any sort of interpretation for the second half of vs. 3 and vs. 4. as well as the following verses....

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Satan has been named perdition. (D&C 76) Those that become his sons are described below...

According to Joseph Fielding Smith in General conference of 1958 October, pg 21....

"...no man can become a son of perdition until he has known the light....it is only those who have he light through the priesthood and through the power of God and through their membership in the Church who will be banished forever from His influence into outer darkness to dwell with the devil and his angels"

So I ask you...has this prophecy regarding the son of perdition sitting in the temple been fulfilled? What historical event can you point to for it's fulfillment? If it has already happened...how can that son of perdition be destroyed with the brightness of his coming as found in vs. 8?

Paul wrote his letters to Thessalonica about 50 or 51 AD. The temple of Herod only stood until 70 AD. So it would have had to have been in that 20 year period. If it didn't happen then...then it is to happen in the future.

This individual will be a member of the church with access to the temple who will "deceive the very elect" with his "signs and wonders". It is us who must not "let any man deceive us by any means".

If desired I have other ancillary scriptures that support this claim. Let me know if I have misjudged it somehow...I search for the truth....not just to be right.

[drjme]

you know I was just thinking about something similar last night.

Is it possible that in the future church leadership could be split?
I was just thinking about why we have to have strong testimonies of the truth pf the gospel, not to defend ourselves from outside attacks but from some sort of fracture within the church?
don't worry I'm not going apostate or anything.
It just made me think with the church requiring to be cleansed sometime in the future, could it be caused by some sort of rift, requiring us to be tried to our very limits, having to make some of the hardest decisions we may face, to do with our faith? having to choose between two things that seem right, but the only right choice to be made by absolute faith in God and our testimonies.

Sorry, no scriptural back up for these thoughts, just thoughts.

[Mark]

You don't need to look for something as dramatic as a split in church leadership as an indication of the fracture drjme. This fracture is already in full swing as we speak. How many of us are having a hard time taking that one foot out of babylon and planting both feet solidly in the path toward Zion in our hearts? Do the cares and treasures of this world continue to distract and weigh us down? Are our youth and our adult members caught up in pursing babylonian entertainment and worldly focus? Why would the adversary want to shake us up in such a defining way regarding this sifting process? He is hugely successful in doing just what he is by getting us dumbed down to the point that we have lost our abhorence to the evils of this world. What better battle plan could he have? Our leaders are united in calling us out of babylon. How many of us are listening by our actions?

[lundbaek]

I believe elements in our church leadership do promote babylonian entertainment and worldly focus. One example, one which got batted about in our HP meeting on Sunday, is that of using the reputation of certain LDS sabbath breakers to draw attention to the Church. I wish I had saved the reply of a now deceased 70 to my complaint about his frequent yacking about certain pro ball players who did their thing on Sundays, and how it affected our boys, who were active in sports. Our bishop at the time called the reply "mealy mouthed".

[Stephen]

You don't need to look for something as dramatic as a split in church leadership as an indication of the fracture drjme. This fracture is already in full swing as we speak. How many of us are having a hard time taking that one foot out of babylon and planting both feet solidly in the path toward Zion in our hearts? Do the cares and treasures of this world continue to distract and weigh us down? Are our youth and our adult members caught up in pursing babylonian entertainment and worldly focus? Why would the adversary want to shake us up in such a defining way regarding this sifting process? He is hugely successful in doing just what he is by getting us dumbed down to the point that we have lost our abhorence to the evils of this world. What better battle plan could he have? Our leaders are united in calling us out of babylon. How many of us are listening by our actions?

So true. Here are some wonderful related quotes...

Elder Carlos E. Asay, a member of the Seventy:
New Testament Teacher Resource Manual, p. 261
"There is a lie—a vicious lie—circulating among the Latter-day Saints and taking its toll among the young. And it is that a 'balanced man' is one who deliberately guards against becoming too righteous. This lie would have you believe that it is possible to live successfully and happily as a 'double-minded man' with one foot in Babylon and one foot in Zion (see James 1:8)" (in Conference Report, Apr. 1992, 59; or Ensign, May 1992, 41).
New Testament Teacher Resource Manual, p. 261

Elder Boyd K. Packer said:
New Testament Teacher Resource Manual, p. 261
"The distance between the Church and a world set on a course which we cannot follow will steadily increase.

New Testament Teacher Resource Manual, p. 261
"Some will fall away into apostasy, break their covenants, and replace the plan of redemption with their own rules" (in Conference Report, Apr. 1994, 26; or Ensign, May 1994, 21).

"Can a man be too righteous? Too Christlike? Impossible! Can the so-called 'balanced man' walk successfully the beam between good and evil? No. Each step is shaky, and eventually he will teeter and fall and break himself against the commandments of God" (in Conference Report, Apr. 1992, 59; or Ensign, May 1992, 41).

Oh...one more thing. I do believe that the devil lulls us with carnal security...and that there is a division taking place to all who can see. I believe that it is the Lord who will eventually provide a defining moment where people really do have to decide..."whose on the Lord's side who?".

[drjme]

mmm good point mark.
The subtle path of deceit is alive and increasing in followers. I was just thinking in the same sense that there already have been breakaway religions from the true church in the past, taking small amounts of members with them. also these leaders may not be the actual official 'leadership' of the church, but members who hold prominent positions of leadership in the 'babylonian' society? who mean well, but lead members astray.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

Not to mention that a majority of those behind the Joseph Smith Jesus Christ DVD's etc are Ex-Mormons.

[buffalo_girl]

Apparently Stake Conference statements by General Authorities are discouraged from being posted on this forum so I am reluctant to post two comments made by Elder Nelson three years ago to our membership here in the outback.

He did use the word "schism" in describing events occurring in the Church. He did not elaborate on what will constitute that "schism".

My non-member husband was there that day and heard this comment. The next Sunday he took the Bishop aside and asked him if Elder Nelson had actually used that term and what he thought Elder Nelson meant. Our bishop felt he meant that the weak would fall away and the strong would just get stronger.

I don't agree. I see what most LDS people see as the 'stronger' members being actually only bold and aggressive, like the Zoramites. The 'weak' members who stop coming to church because they are treated badly for one reason or another are more likely to be the 'humble followers of Christ'. They simply do not feel welcome at church meetings or even in the temple for that matter.

The Bismarck Temple was dedicated to the 'Sons and Daughters of Lehi'. At the temple dedication there were 100's of Sons and Daughters of Lehi in attendance. The numbers required two dedicatory sessions. As my son and I were leaving the first dedication we passed a throng of those waiting to enter for the second session. Among them was an elderly Lakota sister who is the only person I have ever met who could be termed a Saint. I called over to her, "Ada, is your family with you today?" She turned, looked at the temple and pointed to it with a look I cannot describe. "They are all in there," she replied.

With the last of the first group filing out the doors and all of the second group standing outside, who were those of Ada's people "all in there"? They were her ancestors.

Now, out of all those Sons and Daughters of Lehi in attendance that day, I see very few in the temple. I saw one Lakota brother who serves in the branch presidency on the reservation locked outside because he was 5 minutes late for a session after having driven over 100 miles to come to the temple. In my opinion he should have been welcomed to come in and perform some other work during that time. We are a small temple but there is always something a person could do with a little thought by those in authority there. It was a cold winter night, too.

So, are the ones who fall away the 'lost' members? Are they the sons and daughters of perdition because they have been given the light and couldn't bear with the humiliation of continuing to hold it aloft in the face of those members of the church who scorn them? I don't know and cannot judge. I do know my fuse becomes short when I see a worthy Lakota brother locked outside the temple doors because he is five minutes late for that particular 7PM session.

I guess we need to be more worried about a 'schism' within our own souls than one in the Church.

(He also said, "The Seventh Seal has been opened.")

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

Apparently Stake Conference statements by General Authorities are discouraged from being posted on this forum so I am reluctant to post two comments made by Elder Nelson three years ago to our membership here in the outback.

He did use the word "schism" in describing events occurring in the Church. He did not elaborate on what will constitute that "schism".

My non-member husband was there that day and heard this comment. The next Sunday he took the Bishop aside and asked him if Elder Nelson had actually used that term and what he thought Elder Nelson meant. Our bishop felt he meant that the weak would fall away and the strong would just get stronger.

I don't agree. I see what most LDS people see as the 'stronger' members being actually only bold and aggressive, like the Zoramites. The 'weak' members who stop coming to church because they are treated badly for one reason or another are more likely to be the 'humble followers of Christ'. They simply do not feel welcome at church meetings or even in the temple for that matter.

The Bismarck Temple was dedicated to the 'Sons and Daughters of Lehi'. At the temple dedication there were 100's of Sons and Daughters of Lehi in attendance. The numbers required two dedicatory sessions. As my son and I were leaving the first dedication we passed a throng of those waiting to enter for the second session. Among them was an elderly Lakota sister who is the only person I have ever met who could be termed a Saint. I called over to her, "Ada, is your family with you today?" She turned, looked at the temple and pointed to it with a look I cannot describe. "They are all in there," she replied.

With the last of the first group filing out the doors and all of the second group standing outside, who were those of Ada's people "all in there"? They were her ancestors.

Now, out of all those Sons and Daughters of Lehi in attendance that day, I see very few in the temple. I saw one Lakota brother who serves in the branch presidency on the reservation locked outside because he was 5 minutes late for a session after having driven over 100 miles to come to the temple. In my opinion he should have been welcomed to come in and perform some other work during that time. We are a small temple but there is always something a person could do with a little thought by those in authority there. It was a cold winter night, too.

So, are the ones who fall away the 'lost' members? Are they the sons and daughters of perdition because they have been given the light and couldn't bear with the humiliation of continuing to hold it aloft in the face of those members of the church who scorn them? I don't know and cannot judge. I do know my fuse becomes short when I see a worthy Lakota brother locked outside the temple doors because he is five minutes late for that particular 7PM session.

I guess we need to be more worried about a 'schism' within our own souls than one in the Church.

(He also said, "The Seventh Seal has been opened.")

All I will say in response is it takes endurance to continue to return to church and perform our duties when faced with opposition, and I believe that builds strength and character.

I have tried both paths, and the church is true. Years ago, my attendance lagged, but I learned better, and returned to full attendance.

it is a refiners fire. And I am thankful for it today. Those that once attacked me have since fallen away. I still reach out to them in love and service, but enduring well is what we are asked to do.

[Hadassah]

My Mom always taught me growing up “We go to church because of our belief in the gospel, not for the people. (this is not to say we are not suppose to serve and lift one another) This advice has been a great strength to me and has kept me going to church, when I think I would have long ago been offended and fell away. Going to church every Sunday and other church activities is not easy, but it strengthens us, we become more committed, we learn to look beyond ourselves, we learn to be accepting of others. Another thing I've learned is that it is hard to judge a person, only God knows their hearts. Many of the most admired saints I know in the church and out, are the quite ones that go about serving and speaking kind words to help others. Many of the members that demand the most attention with the “look at me attitude” hmmmm.... All I can say is that they have their reward. Sometimes I think we become as the Pharisees and look to much to the letter of the law and not the spirit of the gospel. I had a person tell me once that you could always tell the most devoted members, because they were the ones who arrived at church 15 minutes early, unlike those who were not as devoted and arrived for church just as it was starting or late. I think with the separating of the wheat and tares, there will be many surprises.
I have known many people that have left the church because they were truly offended or because they couldn't stand the hypocrisy of the members. The problem is they may be rightly justified but it opens a huge door for Satan to use our weakness against us. By going to church every Sunday it strengthens us through the week against the temptations of Satan. I can always feel the difference in my week when I have missed a Sunday of Church.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

My Mom always taught me growing up “We go to church because of our belief in the gospel, not for the people. (this is not to say we are not suppose to serve and lift one another) This advice has been a great strength to me and has kept me going to church, when I think I would have long ago been offended and fell away. Going to church every Sunday and other church activities is not easy, but it strengthens us, we become more committed, we learn to look beyond ourselves, we learn to be accepting of others. Another thing I've learned is that it is hard to judge a person, only God knows their hearts. Many of the most admired saints I know in the church and out, are the quite ones that go about serving and speaking kind words to help others. Many of the members that demand the most attention with the “look at me attitude” hmmmm.... All I can say is that they have their reward. Sometimes I think we become as the Pharisees and look to much to the letter of the law and not the spirit of the gospel. I had a person tell me once that you could always tell the most devoted members, because they were the ones who arrived at church 15 minutes early, unlike those who were not as devoted and arrived for church just as it was starting or late. I think with the separating of the wheat and tares, there will be many surprises.
I have known many people that have left the church because they were truly offended or because they couldn't stand the hypocrisy of the members. The problem is they may be rightly justified but it opens a huge door for Satan to use our weakness against us. By going to church every Sunday it strengthens us through the week against the temptations of Satan. I can always feel the difference in my week when I have missed a Sunday of Church.

Well stated.

[BeNotDeceived]

This thread looks related to what I recall reading in Prophecy, Key to the Future.

It may also relate to the readily apparent apostasy now taking place in Riverton.

[DesertWonderer2]

This thread looks related to what I recall reading in Prophecy, Key to the Future.

It may also relate to the readily apparent apostasy now taking place in Riverton.

Whatis going on in Riverton?

[brianj]

This thread looks related to what I recall reading in Prophecy, Key to the Future.

It may also relate to the readily apparent apostasy now taking place in Riverton.

Whatis going on in Riverton?

There's a big thread on this, but you'll get everything you need from the first page.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47723

[Durzan]

A Great Schism in the church need not happen all at once, but little by little. There may come a day when the Twelve will be split right down the center, but it may not be sudden and dramatic (although the end result may be dramatic in hindsight)... rather the result of a gradual buildup of unbelief and pridefulness within the church.

[LdsMarco]

It has NOT been fulfilled. Joseph Smith shared his thoughts on the Man of Sin

[gardener4life]

Apparently Stake Conference statements by General Authorities are discouraged from being posted on this forum so I am reluctant to post two comments made by Elder Nelson three years ago to our membership here in the outback.

He did use the word "schism" in describing events occurring in the Church. He did not elaborate on what will constitute that "schism".

My non-member husband was there that day and heard this comment. The next Sunday he took the Bishop aside and asked him if Elder Nelson had actually used that term and what he thought Elder Nelson meant. Our bishop felt he meant that the weak would fall away and the strong would just get stronger.

I don't agree. I see what most LDS people see as the 'stronger' members being actually only bold and aggressive, like the Zoramites. The 'weak' members who stop coming to church because they are treated badly for one reason or another are more likely to be the 'humble followers of Christ'. They simply do not feel welcome at church meetings or even in the temple for that matter.

The Bismarck Temple was dedicated to the 'Sons and Daughters of Lehi'. At the temple dedication there were 100's of Sons and Daughters of Lehi in attendance. The numbers required two dedicatory sessions. As my son and I were leaving the first dedication we passed a throng of those waiting to enter for the second session. Among them was an elderly Lakota sister who is the only person I have ever met who could be termed a Saint. I called over to her, "Ada, is your family with you today?" She turned, looked at the temple and pointed to it with a look I cannot describe. "They are all in there," she replied.

With the last of the first group filing out the doors and all of the second group standing outside, who were those of Ada's people "all in there"? They were her ancestors.

Now, out of all those Sons and Daughters of Lehi in attendance that day, I see very few in the temple. I saw one Lakota brother who serves in the branch presidency on the reservation locked outside because he was 5 minutes late for a session after having driven over 100 miles to come to the temple. In my opinion he should have been welcomed to come in and perform some other work during that time. We are a small temple but there is always something a person could do with a little thought by those in authority there. It was a cold winter night, too.

So, are the ones who fall away the 'lost' members? Are they the sons and daughters of perdition because they have been given the light and couldn't bear with the humiliation of continuing to hold it aloft in the face of those members of the church who scorn them? I don't know and cannot judge. I do know my fuse becomes short when I see a worthy Lakota brother locked outside the temple doors because he is five minutes late for that particular 7PM session.

I guess we need to be more worried about a 'schism' within our own souls than one in the Church.

(He also said, "The Seventh Seal has been opened.")

I liked what you said. You made a really wonderful comment. In particular the last line is great. 'I guess we need to be more worried about a 'schism' within our own souls than one in the church.'

I do think that the strong in faith are getting stronger, and some are 'losing their light'. There are scriptures about this. I just hope that people don't mistake people confident in what they believe with the Zoramites. Sometimes people think its pride when you are trying to convey pure knowledge that the gospel is true.

The Zoramites were lifted up in pride. The characteristic tells were that they worshipped themselves more than God. They also worshipped money and riches and acquiring those riches. They'd also gotten to a point where just listening to them it sounded ridiculous. (Alma & Amulek quote how they prayed that only they could be chosen (& loved) by God, and that all others were a fallen people worthy of being destroyed. When they'd reached a tipping point many of them started to help the Lamanites destroy the people of God. This is in the Book of Mormon too (it quotes that the Lamanites would often appoint Zoramites and Amalekites for knowing of the places of resort of the Nephites.)

I am also sorry I've offended people on here before. Its hard to not allow people to teach wrong principles and still be friendly, loving, and accepting.

The sons and daughters of Lehi do need to helped and loved and cared for. I felt some inspiration about that awhile back. I am grateful that you brought this up. I hope we can accept them and that we can learn to accept 100% those that don't look or act just like us.

[buffalo_girl]

I believe we are continuing to witness an increasing gap in the 'schism'.

With the universal use of 'smart phones', some members of the Church are being 'left out' of class and study materials including scriptures, as well as access to Ward Membership names, phone numbers, addresses, family members, etc.. Everything is online

I was recently called to be Ward Librarian which - in my humble opinion - is something of a joke.

The first Sunday, the Stake Building Coordinator came in as I was trying to orient myself to what was still available in the library and said, "We are going to make this area into two classrooms now that we have three Wards in this building." The second Sunday, one of the Bishopric came into the library and said, "Everything in here is obsolete." I had to assume, I was included in the 'obsolete' designation since not even Primary uses the 'old' pictures available on the shelves. They have their own 'picture packets' or use their IPhones to project the image on a Smart TV.

Everyone seems ok with this, but I perceive a growing indifference to those 'who aren't up with the times'.

[abijah]

I believe we are continuing to witness an increasing gap in the 'schism'.

With the universal use of 'smart phones', some members of the Church are being 'left out' of class and study materials including scriptures, as well as access to Ward Membership names, phone numbers, addresses, family members, etc.. Everything is online

I was recently called to be Ward Librarian which - in my humble opinion - is something of a joke.

The first Sunday, the Stake Building Coordinator came in as I was trying to orient myself to what was still available in the library and said, "We are going to make this area into two classrooms now that we have three Wards in this building." The second Sunday, one of the Bishopric came into the library and said, "Everything in here is obsolete." I had to assume, I was included in the 'obsolete' designation since not even Primary uses the 'old' pictures available on the shelves. They have their own 'picture packets' or use their IPhones to project the image on a Smart TV.

Everyone seems ok with this, but I perceive a growing indifference to those 'who aren't up with the times'.

agreed, I think it's the scourge of this generation. I'm 21 and I feel I'm the only one in my group of mates not hypnotised by my phone.

[gardener4life]

I believe we are continuing to witness an increasing gap in the 'schism'.

With the universal use of 'smart phones', some members of the Church are being 'left out' of class and study materials including scriptures, as well as access to Ward Membership names, phone numbers, addresses, family members, etc.. Everything is online

I was recently called to be Ward Librarian which - in my humble opinion - is something of a joke.

The first Sunday, the Stake Building Coordinator came in as I was trying to orient myself to what was still available in the library and said, "We are going to make this area into two classrooms now that we have three Wards in this building." The second Sunday, one of the Bishopric came into the library and said, "Everything in here is obsolete." I had to assume, I was included in the 'obsolete' designation since not even Primary uses the 'old' pictures available on the shelves. They have their own 'picture packets' or use their IPhones to project the image on a Smart TV.

Everyone seems ok with this, but I perceive a growing indifference to those 'who aren't up with the times'.

You are right on. GOod job. I like that you are worried about some members being left out of class without technology. If it were the savior those would be the ones he would be the most concerned about. Those are the ones often also the most in change going good sometimes because of their having less humbling them.

We had a library cleaning too but we were careful to keep what was good. what was totally interesting is we found hymns and hymn books from the 1920s in our building and nobody even knew they were there!

In my previous post there was one key sub note I forgot to put in. Another and the last but biggest of the Zoramite tells on their self worship and fallen state was their being willing and energetic to leave the poor behind. They cast out the poor from their synagogues. This is in the scriptures for a reason. Usually its the poor that are the ones willing to hear God, while the others are in a sleepy state.

Thanks for bringing this up.

Also people that teach classes and have prepared lessons in our building use the pictures from the library a lot. so do primary children. OF course that's IF people are having prepared lessons.

[Rand]

I do not see that scripture the way you do. I think that prophecy or prediction is fulfilled in the Temple as we experience it today. Just because Satan says he is god, does not make him so. Just because he acts like he is, he does not accomplish that fact in reality. He is exposed for who he is, and is revealed as the great liar from the beginning in the Temple. I don't think it is predicting some future schism, but describing what we can learn and see in the Temple.
We must cast him out in our own lives and the lives of our families. He will fall.

[abijah]

I believe in the reality of a last days antichrist, an actual person and leadership figure. I think if he is not a member than he will have a vast knowledge of true principles, including the knowledge obtained in the temple.

I believe he will try and hijack the power found in this true knowledge and bend it to serve his evil purposes. Just like the devil.

[BeNotDeceived]

I believe in the reality of a last days antichrist, an actual person and leadership figure. I think if he is not a member than he will have a vast knowledge of true principles, including the knowledge obtained in the temple.

I believe he will try and hijack the power found in this true knowledge and bend it to serve his evil purposes. Just like the devil.

Reminds me of the question about inviting God to dine with you, and how many chairs do you need for Him. Simple question for us, but not so much for Trinitarians.

Duane Crowther did a good job of laying it out as occurring in the New Jerusalem Temple, which will have an actual Throne, that may be sat upon, by only one physical presence at a time.

... The Short Answer
Yes, a special temple will be built in both locations by Jews and the Latter-Day Saints. What makes them special is that they will both be The Seat of Power for Jesus Christ Himself to rule and reign complete with a throne that will be His alone. ...

[BeNotDeceived]

A Great Schism in the church need not happen all at once, but little by little. There may come a day when the Twelve will be split right down the center, but it may not be sudden and dramatic (although the end result may be dramatic in hindsight)... rather the result of a gradual buildup of unbelief and pridefulness within the church.

It’s troubling to consider how such a situation arrives, but less so than being caught unawares.

[DesertWonderer2]

I believe in the reality of a last days antichrist, an actual person and leadership figure. I think if he is not a member than he will have a vast knowledge of true principles, including the knowledge obtained in the temple.

I believe he will try and hijack the power found in this true knowledge and bend it to serve his evil purposes. Just like the devil.

What scriptures do you use to come to this conclusion?