“And with him an hundred forty and four thousand”…

[friendsofthe]

Joseph Smith’s remarks regarding “the hundred and forty-four thousand” where he stated that “the selection of persons to form that number had already commenced” is especially illuminating to those of our generation. It give us just the edge we need to understand John’s prophecy regarding this intriguing subject…

New blog: http://thebridegroomcometh.net/and-with ... -thousand/

Let me know what you think...

[friendsofthe]

One reason it’s so important to understand this thing with the 144000 is that if they were mortals we might expect that the ten tribes would have to return before the Second Coming and that’s not the case. Besides, 3 Ne. 21 places the great gathering of Israel and “even the tribes which have been lost” after the coming of the Bridegroom….

25 And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst.
26 And then shall the work of the Father commence at that day, even when this gospel shall be preached among the remnant of this people. Verily I say unto you, at that day shall the work of the Father commence among all the dispersed of my people, yea, even the tribes which have been lost, which the Father hath led away out of Jerusalem.

[Alaris]

There was another thread where this topic was addressed, and there are some who hinge their belief on the sixth seal being active since the 144,000 haven't been called yet:

Revelation7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The Joseph Smith quote you list in your article is beautiful as it reinforces my belief that the above verses are not limited to our side of the veil. Here's the quote:

“I attended prayer-meeting with the quorum in the assembly room, and made some remarks respecting the hundred and forty-four thousand mentioned by John the Revelator, showing that the selection of persons to form that number had already commenced.” (HC, J SMITH 6:196)

The selection of the 144,000 happens by the end of the sixth seal - which doesn't necessarily mean it started happening at the end of the sixth seal.

I believe you used the below quote in another one of you articles, which fits nicely with the point you make that the 144,000 aren't necessarily mortal.

“And now, I ask, how righteousness and truth are going to sweep the earth as with a flood? I will answer. Men and angels are to be co-workers in bringing to pass this great work, and Zion is to be prepared, even a new Jerusalem, for the elect that are to be gathered from the four quarters of the earth, and to be established an holy city, for the tabernacle of the Lord shall be with them. ~ Joseph Smith commentary on Moses 7:62 - History of the Church, 2:260–62

[friendsofthe]

Alaris wrote:
The selection of the 144,000 happens by the end of the sixth seal - which doesn't necessarily mean it started happening at the end of the sixth seal.

Agree, I’d say that the selection could have easily started even before Joseph’s day but for sure it must be complete before the Bridegroom comes and the 7th seal opens.

[Bwboy]

It is entirely possible that people from every dispensation could be included in the 144,000. 144,000 could be an exact number but my personal opinion would verge on more of a number to indicate many people. It wouldn't make sense that Heavenly father would check off the last person and essentially say that's it folks thanks for coming.

[Alaris]

It is entirely possible that people from every dispensation could be included in the 144,000. 144,000 could be an exact number but my personal opinion would verge on more of a number to indicate many people. It wouldn't make sense that Heavenly father would check off the last person and essentially say that's it folks thanks for coming.

Unless it takes eternal rounds to reach that level ... then it would less a matter of agency and more a matter of assignment.

[brianj]

It is entirely possible that people from every dispensation could be included in the 144,000. 144,000 could be an exact number but my personal opinion would verge on more of a number to indicate many people. It wouldn't make sense that Heavenly father would check off the last person and essentially say that's it folks thanks for coming.

Since Revelation says there were 12,000 out of each tribe, I think it's an exact number. Heavenly Father does check off specific numbers. Except between organized First Presidencies, the Quorum of the Twelve never has more than 12 members. No quorum of Seventy has more than 70 members. No Elders Quorum has more than 96 members.

I'm not confident people from every dispensation will be called to this group. It is organized before the resurrection that happens at the Second Coming of Christ. And this groups is comprised entirely of virgins, which prohibits including people who were faithful enough to become husbands and parents - an odd exclusion for people who are righteous enough to be sealed up to eternal life.

[friendsofthe]

Brianj wrote:
I'm not confident people from every dispensation will be called to this group. It is organized before the resurrection that happens at the Second Coming of Christ. And this groups is comprised entirely of virgins, which prohibits including people who were faithful enough to become husbands and parents - an odd exclusion for people who are righteous enough to be sealed up to eternal life.

Here’s couple other translation of Rev 14:4…

New American Standard Bible
4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

New Century Version
4 These are the ones who did not do sinful things with women, because they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb every place he goes. These one hundred forty-four thousand were bought from among the people of the earth as people to be offered to God and the Lamb.

I’m going to say that a man can be “chaste” and “pure” and still be married…

[brianj]

I’m going to say that a man can be “chaste” and “pure” and still be married…

It's interesting that so many corrections and clarifications of the Bible would be provided through Joseph Smith but the word virgin would not be corrected or clarified if that's not the intended meaning.

[brianj]

These missionaries are called virgins in the King James version, New International Version, New Living Translation, English Standard Version, Berean Study Bible, Holman Christian Standard Bible, International Standard Version, NET Bible, New Heart English Bible, Aramaic Bible in Plain English, Jubilee Bible 2000, King James 2000 Bible, American King James Version, American Standard Version. Douay-Rheims Bible, Darby Bible Translation, English Revised Version, Webster's Bible Translation, World English Bible, and Young's Literal Translation.

With 10 versions of the Bible calling the 144,000 virgins against your two versions, I think I'll stick with the majority until these missionaries are called or we have clarification given through ordained and set apart church leaders.

[friendsofthe]

Brianj wrote:
With 10 versions of the Bible calling the 144,000 virgins against your two versions, I think I'll stick with the majority until these missionaries are called or we have clarification given through ordained and set apart church leaders.

“Against” you say…. Well, I don’t think it a competition at all. I was simply including translations that add to a broader view of the verse. You can interpret the “virgin” thing as being literal if you like but I don’t believe that the 144000 would have failed to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage… Something that all who are to became like God must do…

[GrandMasterB]

Brianj wrote:
With 10 versions of the Bible calling the 144,000 virgins against your two versions, I think I'll stick with the majority until these missionaries are called or we have clarification given through ordained and set apart church leaders.

“Against” you say…. Well, I don’t think it a competition at all. I was simply including translations that add to a broader view of the verse. You can interpret the “virgin” thing as being literal if you like but I don’t believe that the 144000 would have failed to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage… Something that all who are to became like God must do…

Exactly. If they weren’t following the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth how would they be worthy of such a calling. You don’t receive a fullness of the preisthood without entering into the new and everlasting covenant.

[Alaris]

The 144,000 are the seraphim of Isaiah 6, and of the order of apostles ala Matthew 13.

Their chastity in Revelation is cited because their level and order are aligned to the law of chastity. This is covered in my article below about levels five through eight, so the sixth section covers and there is a nice pic that shows the alignment of promises of overcoming to the laws of the Gospel.

http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2 ... ns_12.html

The sealing of the name of the father in their foreheads is the promised reward for overcoming their level and the covenant of their level of progression.

The sixth promise aligned to the 144,000:

Revelation3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The Law of Chastity is the higher law that includes thoughts. Our minds must be holy before the name of God can abide there.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

That seal is broken as they overcome and they are then allowed to know the name of God and the new name of Christ.

[BeNotDeceived]

Brianj wrote:
With 10 versions of the Bible calling the 144,000 virgins against your two versions, I think I'll stick with the majority until these missionaries are called or we have clarification given through ordained and set apart church leaders.

“Against” you say…. Well, I don’t think it a competition at all. I was simply including translations that add to a broader view of the verse. You can interpret the “virgin” thing as being literal if you like but I don’t believe that the 144000 would have failed to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage… Something that all who are to became like God must do…

Exactly. If they weren’t following the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth how would they be worthy of such a calling. You don’t receive a fullness of the preisthood without entering into the new and everlasting covenant.

Rev. 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women, for they are virgins

In the D&C, the Prophet explains that these 144,000 are high priests. (D&C 77:11) There are not too many high priests in the church who are virgins in the sense that they have never engaged in sexual activity. What does this mean?

"They are virgins in having refrained from entering into any unlawful sexual intercourse. They are also virgins in having remained true to Christ as their Bridegroom (Rev. 19:7; 21:9; see also Jer. 2:1-4)-in having refrained from entering into spiritual adultery (Ezek. 16; Hosea 1-3). The Lord has often referred to his true people as a virgin (2 Kgs. 19:21; Jer. 18:13; Lam. 2:13; Amos 5:2; 2 Cor. 11:2). These 'virgins' are contrasted with the wicked who worship the beast in Rev. 13:1Rev. 13 and who join in consort with the 'mother of harlots' that is Babylon (17:5)." (Donald W. Parry and Jay A. Parry, Understanding the Book of Revelation [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998], 181.)