New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

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Silver
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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby Silver » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:53 pm

Michelle wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:43 pm
Arandur wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:14 am
Economic collapse seems likely. If this truly is like unto the Proclamation, it could also be a sign of upcoming pressure to become dependent on government aid rather than becoming self-sufficient. You know, the same stuff that's been going on for at least 80 years or so, but to a greater and more pervasive degree.
This I believe.

My point here. They want people on government aid. They will tell you about all kinds of tricks and loopholes and unintended opportunities to get and keep you on aid. It is job security really. If less people need aid this year than last year, we don't need as many people in that office. But if we grow our clients every year, the budget will keep going up.
An inquiry into the propriety and viability of all government programs runs at the national level can be reduced to a simple series of questions such as:
1. Is the post office able to support its own operations from the revenues it receives from the postage and other services it provides?
2. Is Amtrak successful?
3. Is Social Security in the hole?
4. Does the Pentagon stay on budget?
5. Does the Pentagon even win wars with their over-priced weaponry and career soldiers?
6. Does the Department of Education spit out smarter and smarter students every year?
7. Does the multiplicity of intelligence agencies make us safer or our data more secure?
etc.
As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. (T)he worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Ezra Taft Benson

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brianj
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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby brianj » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:35 pm

gclayjr wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:10 am
Brianj,
t has been my unrequited dream to travel internationally for over 3/4 of my life to date. I'm finally getting into a position where I believe that I may have the budget to do so as early as next winter or spring, but I'm also feeling like it would be unwise to not save that money against a day of need that is coming very soon.
I always wanted to live in a rural area near a small town (maybe in Utah) and basically go nowhere. After I got out of the Marines, I got a Job that involved extensive travel in Latin America. I Later worked a number of other Jobs that involved more moderate travel, but Still traveled all over the U.S, Canada, the Czech republic, Sweden, and New Zealand. Also, small towns I used to live in, like St. George/Washington Utah are no longer small towns and I would hate to live there today.

I have often thought how unfair it was for me to get to see so much of the world, when basically I didn't give a d#mn, and I knew others lusted after it. I guess, while such dreams are important, as I have often told a daughter of mine who is going thorough some difficulties (many of which are her own making) you've got to play the hand you've got, not the hand you want.

Regards,

George Clay

PS: I am retired, live in SE Pennsylvania and have 6 children, all of whom live within about 20 miles of me. I have often told people. that I didn't choose this area, it was simple a job move, but if I'm to be "stuck" somewhere, it is not a bad place to be stuck. It is beautiful, and is a pretty good place to live.
I joined the Marine Corps, looked forward to seeing the world, and I saw Camp Pendleton. Oh, and an exercise in the Angeles National Forest north of Los Angeles. I went reserve, went on a mission, and came back just in time to miss my unit's deployment to Desert Shield.
Life is so incredibly, unbelievably unfair. You want to have a nice, small piece of land in an area where you just want to stay put but it seems you can't find that. You don't want to travel but have had ample opportunity. I want a place to call home that I can return to and to be able to take frequent trips but I can't have that. Then we both get to hear people complaining in testimony meeting about the worst trial of their life and shake our heads at what people call sore trials and think that if they spent a week experiencing our worst struggles they would implode.

For whatever reason, unrequited dreams seem to be a burden many of us have to bear. And in almost every case I am aware of, the people with such a burden are surrounded by those who are living the dream. It seems I can't go anywhere without hearing somebody talk about their next trip to Europe, but I guess that doesn't suck as bad for me as the infertile women who can't escape being surrounded by mothers or the never married women in their late 40s or later surrounded by women always talking about their husbands. And hearing the heartbreaking stories of women who committed to eternal marriage only to have their husband turn abusive, unfaithful, or become addicts and saw their families fall apart are even worse than the previous stories. It's terrible to never have a family, but to spend your entire life in a Families are Forever culture only to have yours ripped apart seems so much worse!

George, I really appreciate your response. Sometimes I want to blow up at people who try telling me I'll get the opportunity to travel in the Millennium. Really? I can't wait to go see where the Eiffel Tower used to be, where Himalayas used to be, or where the beautiful islands of the South Pacific used to be! When the Concorde jets were returned to service after the crash in Paris I did everything I could to save money so I could have that experience, only to find myself unemployed and spending all of that savings then going into debt.

Yes, for whatever reason many of us will never realize dreams that are very important to us. In that case all we can do is embrace the suck and look forward with curiosity for the promised day when something I am incapable of comprehending happens - we receive a reward next to all of those people who got to live every one of our dreams to the point of taking them for granted and somehow feel we've been made whole.

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby brianj » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:38 pm

KurtTheMormon wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:27 am
I'm sorry. I did not mean to touch on a bad issue. My apologies.
No worries, Kurt. I sincerely do believe that bad times are coming, especially after a visit to the temple this evening I really do feel all will be well, and I find it very entertaining how I was provided all of this food storage. I don't know what my short term future holds. Maybe I will find a true eternal companion and we'll already be set in the food storage department for when bad things happen. Maybe I won't, bad things will come, and my surplus will be a blessing to others. Maybe bad times won't come until after this food has all been replaced and I will receive blessings currently unrecognized for having the food storage.

I've had some great experiences recently, and whatever happens I really do believe that I will be all right and it will be for the best - even if it means that I will never be able to fulfill another dream or goal in mortality.

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby BYULAWGUY » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:16 am

A couple of thoughts.

First, life is to be enjoyed. If you have lived within your means and can afford international travel without going into debt, do it.

Second, there are other classes/programs on getting an education and starting a business. It is not just about preparing for an economic crisis.

Third. The church has taught to be prepared but don't go,crazy or to extreme. Have some money saved, have as little debt as possible, have a food storage, and of course a large, white winter tent (tic). :)

Fourth. If there is a huge economic crisis, your money you saved will be worthless so you might as well spend it.
"I also doze in church occasionally, but that's because I trust my leaders. If I were worried about what they were doing, I'd stay wide awake." Henry Eyring, Reflections of a Scientist, page 23

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby ExtraCelestial » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:34 am

This is from the Self Reliance PDF
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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby Yahtzee » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:52 pm

BYULAWGUY wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:16 am

Fourth. If there is a huge economic crisis, your money you saved will be worthless so you might as well spend it.
We have over 6 months income saved and I can't tell you how many times I've thought this!! Argh!!
Sorry, we're not Janice Kapp Perry Mormons.

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby Michelle » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:26 pm

Yahtzee wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:52 pm
BYULAWGUY wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:16 am

Fourth. If there is a huge economic crisis, your money you saved will be worthless so you might as well spend it.
We have over 6 months income saved and I can't tell you how many times I've thought this!! Argh!!
There is always a transition. A devalued dollar is still worth more than no dollars.

On a separate but related point, people always talk about owning gold and silver and such. But I keep wondering if in modern collapses that has proved to be useful. Does anyone know if any kind of gold or silver or other precious metal popped up in Venezuela since their crisis began? Unless you are among a community of precious metal holders, how does that work even?

I remember a story of a man who was offered a beachfront property for his car when some economy tanked. He didn't take it because having a car was so valuable. He never really expected things to recover either. Years later, he wished he'd accept the property which was worth millions at that time.

Utility does seem to trump money, but money doesn't disappear all at once. Though in a digital world, it does seem more possible.

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby BeNotDeceived » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:09 am

BYULAWGUY wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:16 am
Image
A couple of thoughts. ...
Image
Image
“And I asked myself about the present: how wide it was, how deep it was, how much was mine to keep.”

“Trout, incidentally, had written a book about a money tree. It had twenty-dollar bills for leaves. Its flowers were government bonds. Its fruit was diamonds. It attracted human beings who killed each other around the roots and made very good fertilizer. So it goes.”
Image Image
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ignored. Second, it is skewed all out of proportion. Third, it stagnates due to complacency, opposing interests, and lack of funding.

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby Silver » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:55 am

Michelle wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:26 pm
Yahtzee wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:52 pm
BYULAWGUY wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:16 am

Fourth. If there is a huge economic crisis, your money you saved will be worthless so you might as well spend it.
We have over 6 months income saved and I can't tell you how many times I've thought this!! Argh!!
There is always a transition. A devalued dollar is still worth more than no dollars.

On a separate but related point, people always talk about owning gold and silver and such. But I keep wondering if in modern collapses that has proved to be useful. Does anyone know if any kind of gold or silver or other precious metal popped up in Venezuela since their crisis began? Unless you are among a community of precious metal holders, how does that work even?

I remember a story of a man who was offered a beachfront property for his car when some economy tanked. He didn't take it because having a car was so valuable. He never really expected things to recover either. Years later, he wished he'd accept the property which was worth millions at that time.

Utility does seem to trump money, but money doesn't disappear all at once. Though in a digital world, it does seem more possible.
MIchelle,
You have voiced a legitimate concern. Those who discredit the value of gold often forget that very prescient first line of your post: There is always a transition. When Mormon was trying to herd the last vestiges of the dying Nephite civilization to safety and prep them for that final battle at Cumorah, gold ownership might not have been the path to survival. Previous to those times however, gold and silver occupied an important position in the Nephite economy.

As for Venezuela, let me first post an article by an anti-gold writer. See if you can identify a few mistakes he makes in his arguments. The comments below the article are instructive.

http://www.alloutdoor.com/2016/06/08/ve ... ible-prep/

Next, let's look at facts on the ground there.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-1 ... tutionally

Finally, it's obvious that the days of the petrodollar as world reserve currency are limited. When we lose that position, who knows what will be the next one, but precious metals will help smooth the transition as the dollar loses purchasing power.
As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. (T)he worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Ezra Taft Benson

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby gclayjr » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:31 am

Silver,

I'll bite. I think this guy you are criticizing is pretty much spot on.
As for the Venezuelans who are “holding physical,” as the goldbugs like to say, the only thing they could possibly exchange that stuff for are bolivars, given the very tight currency controls that the country is under right now. They won’t be getting USD for it, and they certainly aren’t going to trade it for food because, again, there is no food.

In a collapse, food is scarce and people are hungry. Nobody is going to trade you a box of .357 or a Gold Eagle for a chicken, because unlike the latter two things, chickens are edible, and the edible stuff takes priority.

I get why preppers like these “barter item” type preps. It’s because you can accumulate them in small increments, and you can fantasize that you’re buying low and you’ll “sell high” when the time comes. It’s old-fashioned speculation, something that has universal appeal to the gambler in us. But like all other speculation, it’s dangerous and there are way better vehicles for accumulating real value.

(Note that I think gold definitely has its place in any portfolio, but as a form of insurance, not as speculation.)

As the Venezuelan collapse amply illustrates, you need to have your priorities straight, and a dependable source of calories should be at the very top of the list. Don’t get suckered into wasting money, time, and space on stuff you can’t consume but that you think someone will trade you a bit of their food for, because you’re certain to be gravely disappointed.
I'll agree that he is wrong in stating that people will only be exchanging gold for Bolivars. That is stupid. But otherwise I think he has pretty much nailed it. When there is little to exchange, having a "Store of value" to exchange helps little. I agree that there is a place for Gold and Silver, but it should not be a priority. I will note that the church has said essentially nothing about storing Gold or Silver.

When the necessities of life are in short supply, and there is little production of anything, the priorities should be the necessities of life, and tools and abilities to either produce for your self, or to barter for other necessities of life. They WILL be more valuable than gold or silver!

Regards,

George Clay

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby Silver » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:33 am

gclayjr wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:31 am
Silver,

I'll bite. I think this guy you are criticizing is pretty much spot on.
As for the Venezuelans who are “holding physical,” as the goldbugs like to say, the only thing they could possibly exchange that stuff for are bolivars, given the very tight currency controls that the country is under right now. They won’t be getting USD for it, and they certainly aren’t going to trade it for food because, again, there is no food.

In a collapse, food is scarce and people are hungry. Nobody is going to trade you a box of .357 or a Gold Eagle for a chicken, because unlike the latter two things, chickens are edible, and the edible stuff takes priority.

I get why preppers like these “barter item” type preps. It’s because you can accumulate them in small increments, and you can fantasize that you’re buying low and you’ll “sell high” when the time comes. It’s old-fashioned speculation, something that has universal appeal to the gambler in us. But like all other speculation, it’s dangerous and there are way better vehicles for accumulating real value.

(Note that I think gold definitely has its place in any portfolio, but as a form of insurance, not as speculation.)

As the Venezuelan collapse amply illustrates, you need to have your priorities straight, and a dependable source of calories should be at the very top of the list. Don’t get suckered into wasting money, time, and space on stuff you can’t consume but that you think someone will trade you a bit of their food for, because you’re certain to be gravely disappointed.
I'll agree that he is wrong in stating that people will only be exchanging gold for Bolivars. That is stupid. But otherwise I think he has pretty much nailed it. When there is little to exchange, having a "Store of value" to exchange helps little. I agree that there is a place for Gold and Silver, but it should not be a priority. I will note that the church has said essentially nothing about storing Gold or Silver.

When the necessities of life are in short supply, and there is little production of anything, the priorities should be the necessities of life, and tools and abilities to either produce for your self, or to barter for other necessities of life. They WILL be more valuable than gold or silver!

Regards,

George Clay
George,
Here's what I know about the situation from the limited reading I've done:
1. the people of Venezuela have a black market where they trade their worthless Bolivars for other currencies like the dollar at rates much worse than the officially sanctioned exchange rates.
2. the people with the gold are still living great lives, although many of those who can have decamped to Miami, etc.
3. the borders shared with Colombia and Brazil are still not closed so Venezuelans with liquidity are crossing into those countries for goods. Those with gold and silver are able to purchase what they need without huge discounts on their near-worthless Bolivars.
4. the Church may not say anything specifically about gold or silver, but we are commanded by the Lord to have a Financial Reserve. Most Saints have cash or perhaps some stocks/bonds denominated in the currency of their country of residence. The wise Saints, where possible, have some precious metals, too. viewtopic.php?f=56&t=42191&hilit=Financial+Reserve

Like the Nephites, the Venezuelans (and Americans) may find themselves in a situation where nothing but food and water matter, but until then they're still in the "transition" period. So, of course, you can't eat gold, but neither can you eat your 2nd pair of just-in-case work jeans. Precious metals have the bonus feature of being accepted around the world as real money. I have yet to see a real-world scenario where no more contact with the rest of the world is possible so precious metals make up a part of my financial reserve.
As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. (T)he worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Ezra Taft Benson

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby gclayjr » Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:49 am

Silver,
2. the people with the gold are still living great lives, although many of those who can have decamped to Miami, etc.
3. the borders shared with Colombia and Brazil are still not closed so Venezuelans with liquidity are crossing into those countries for goods. Those with g
Venezuela has been a living hell for at least 3 to 4 years, and pretty bad for 18 years. If somebody had enough Gold saved up to exchange at black market prices, to provide for 4 years of goods and services, let alone 18 years, then yea they are pretty well off. How many gold and silver guys like yourself have been able to save enough silver and Gold to be able to purchase all they need at black market prices for 4 -18 years?

When there is no production, virtually all starve. You can't eat gold, you can't heat with Gold, Gold will not Shelter you nor provide the energy you need to live.and most importantly Gold doesn't produce little baby golds that you can use in the future. Venezuela may have a bit of an advantage over us, in that they are relatively small, and their economy doesn't effect Colombia, Brasil, and other neighbors, and a black market can flourish, but the U.S. is massive, and we wouid have fewer such opportunities.

So like the man said, Gold is an important part of preparation, but more important is to save that which you would want to purchase later at inflated Gold prices, and tools and skills so that you can produce what you need or barter for what you will need.

Regards,

George Clay

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby Z2100 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:00 am

KurtTheMormon wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:24 pm
I had the opportunity to begin participating in a Self-Reliance program from the 12 that emphasizes financial stability. As I sat in a meeting with one of the higher leaders overseeing this initiative, he said that this program comes straight from the desk of the Church Presidency and that it is meant to help us with issues that will arise in the future. He likened it to the Proclamation on the Family, which came out before all of the most major attacks on the Family Unit began, and that this program is similar.

Does this mean that there is extensive financial instability ahead? I would say that this is so, based on the feelings I felt from the Holy Ghost. If I understood correctly, this new Self Reliance program will soon be church-wide, and will involve millions of people.

Here is the mentioned program: https://www.lds.org/topics/pef-self-rel ... g&old=true



I believe that with the end of the Times of The Gentiles, that’s when all Hell will break loose. I’m sure the economy will collapse when it ends. The reason why self reliance and economy is so important in the church is because the New Jerusalem could run on entirely on economics and as will every city of Zion (in the future).

If the Times of The Gentiles end in the next 10 years, then I can push the Second Coming back from 2100 to 2070 or sooner
We live in the 6920th year since the Fall of Man.

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby Silver » Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:24 am

gclayjr wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:49 am
Silver,
2. the people with the gold are still living great lives, although many of those who can have decamped to Miami, etc.
3. the borders shared with Colombia and Brazil are still not closed so Venezuelans with liquidity are crossing into those countries for goods. Those with g
Venezuela has been a living hell for at least 3 to 4 years, and pretty bad for 18 years. If somebody had enough Gold saved up to exchange at black market prices, to provide for 4 years of goods and services, let alone 18 years, then yea they are pretty well off. How many gold and silver guys like yourself have been able to save enough silver and Gold to be able to purchase all they need at black market prices for 4 -18 years?

When there is no production, virtually all starve. You can't eat gold, you can't heat with Gold, Gold will not Shelter you nor provide the energy you need to live.and most importantly Gold doesn't produce little baby golds that you can use in the future. Venezuela may have a bit of an advantage over us, in that they are relatively small, and their economy doesn't effect Colombia, Brasil, and other neighbors, and a black market can flourish, but the U.S. is massive, and we wouid have fewer such opportunities.

So like the man said, Gold is an important part of preparation, but more important is to save that which you would want to purchase later at inflated Gold prices, and tools and skills so that you can produce what you need or barter for what you will need.

Regards,

George Clay
OK, George, you do that. Just like you said. However, you've failed to address the Financial Reserve we are commanded to create and grow. Whether it be paper money or gold, we should have a financial reserve and I'm betting that gold and silver will be worth more than fiat dollars in the future so I put my money where my mouth is. Yeah, I said "betting" because everything in life is a bet -- even the tools you save which could burn down with your house or your skills which could be lost in a near-fatal car wreck.
As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. (T)he worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Ezra Taft Benson

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby gclayjr » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:55 am

Silver,
So like the man said, Gold is an important part of preparation, but more important is to save that which you would want to purchase later at inflated Gold prices, and tools and skills so that you can produce what you need or barter for what you will need
OK, George, you do that. Just like you said. However, you've failed to address the Financial Reserve we are commanded to create and grow. Whether it be paper money or gold, we should have a financial reserve and I'm betting that gold and silver will be worth more than fiat dollars in the future so I put my money where my mouth is. Yeah, I said "betting" because everything in life is a bet -- even the tools you save which could burn down with your house or your skills which could be lost in a near-fatal car wreck.
Just like all of the Conspiracy nuts here, you take a good idea, then "go off the rails". First, I wonder about your reading comprehension. Neither I, nor the author you excoriated said that gold might not be an important part of preparedness. I certainly said nothing about spending like there is no tomorrow. In fact, while I don't know what you have done personally, one could easy follow your advice and believe that it would be worthwhile to mortgage everything and buy gold or silver. By the way, if someone had done that over the past 10 years or so, their losses would have been tremendous.

I think my tools would survive most disasters better than your gold and silver, and they would do more to help me work my way out of those disasters. Also, not many thieves would see much value in 500lb mill or a 200 lb lathe, and think them worth stealing.

REgards,

George Clay
Last edited by gclayjr on Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby brianj » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:07 pm

Yahtzee wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:52 pm
BYULAWGUY wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:16 am

Fourth. If there is a huge economic crisis, your money you saved will be worthless so you might as well spend it.
We have over 6 months income saved and I can't tell you how many times I've thought this!! Argh!!
I'm going to go ahead and tell you to blow off BYULAWGUY's fourth point and disregard the temptation you've had to feel the same way.

Let's look at this rationally. I see four possibilities.
1) No economic crisis happens. Forget this one because recessions and depressions happen from time to time so it's unrealistic. But if you want to consider it, then I have bad news for you. That six months' income isn't going to be enough to sustain you through retirement.
2) A recession or depression happens, and you lose your job. Between having over six months income saved and unemployment insurance you will probably be able to get by for a full year. If you have to take a job that doesn't quite pay enough to meet expenses, this savings will allow you to cover the loss until you can find a better job.
3) A total economic collapse happens, but not instantly. Instead we see economic uncertainty turn into a recession, then a depression, and finally a collapse. The financial assets you have will help you get by until that really bad day.
4) One evening you are reviewing stock market and economic reports for the day thinking it couldn't get any better, and when you wake up the next morning you find the economy has completely collapsed. In this case the savings won't help you at all. But if this does happen, you are trying to live right, and you are spiritually in tune, is it likely that you will receive strong promptings to spend that savings on things that will help you, your family, and those around you through the crisis?

In summary, I can't imagine a situation where having that savings would ever be a bad thing.

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby Sunain » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:18 pm

In the UK, 77% of 2017 university grads will never fully repay their student loan debt
Because of the UK's dramatic shift from student grants to loans, a startling report from the Institute for Financial Studies predicts that 77.4% of university graduates in the UK's class of 2017 will not repay their full student loan obligations. This is up from 41.5% just six years ago in 2011.
Well if this doesn't show that the current generation will have debt issues, I don't know what other proof we need. 3/4 of university graduates can't even afford to go to university.

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby Yahtzee » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:47 pm

brianj wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:07 pm
Yahtzee wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:52 pm
BYULAWGUY wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:16 am

Fourth. If there is a huge economic crisis, your money you saved will be worthless so you might as well spend it.
We have over 6 months income saved and I can't tell you how many times I've thought this!! Argh!!
I'm going to go ahead and tell you to blow off BYULAWGUY's fourth point and disregard the temptation you've had to feel the same way.

Let's look at this rationally. I see four possibilities.
1) No economic crisis happens. Forget this one because recessions and depressions happen from time to time so it's unrealistic. But if you want to consider it, then I have bad news for you. That six months' income isn't going to be enough to sustain you through retirement.
2) A recession or depression happens, and you lose your job. Between having over six months income saved and unemployment insurance you will probably be able to get by for a full year. If you have to take a job that doesn't quite pay enough to meet expenses, this savings will allow you to cover the loss until you can find a better job.
3) A total economic collapse happens, but not instantly. Instead we see economic uncertainty turn into a recession, then a depression, and finally a collapse. The financial assets you have will help you get by until that really bad day.
4) One evening you are reviewing stock market and economic reports for the day thinking it couldn't get any better, and when you wake up the next morning you find the economy has completely collapsed. In this case the savings won't help you at all. But if this does happen, you are trying to live right, and you are spiritually in tune, is it likely that you will receive strong promptings to spend that savings on things that will help you, your family, and those around you through the crisis?

In summary, I can't imagine a situation where having that savings would ever be a bad thing.
Oh, no worries. We wouldn't have that much if we listened to temptation, lol! But the thought does cross my mind when I want a brand new car or even more emergency preparedness things (like a nice trailer that would fit my whole family).
We actually had something similar to #2 happen. My husband was looking for a new job with no luck. An opportunity presented but involved a substantial pay cut for 6 months. Because we had enough saved he was able to take it and later get promoted making even more money than at his previous job.
But even so, that thought of losing it all Great Depression style does cross my mind.
Sorry, we're not Janice Kapp Perry Mormons.

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gclayjr
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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby gclayjr » Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:52 pm

Yahtzee,
We actually had something similar to #2 happen. My husband was looking for a new job with no luck. An opportunity presented but involved a substantial pay cut for 6 months. Because we had enough saved he was able to take it and later get promoted making even more money than at his previous job.
But even so, that thought of losing it all Great Depression style does cross my mind.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I too usually have an eye on some great cataclysmic event happening.. I look around and wonder why it hasn't happened already. It is good to be reminded that preparation isn't just for the cataclysmic...even today.

Regards,

George Clay

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby shadow » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:24 pm

The new church program might be a sign that there are many more years of a good economy. One of the worst things to do just prior to an economic collapse is to start a business. Most small business start-ups fail already but to start a business just prior to a collapse is almost a guarantee fail. During economic downturns people tend to hold on to their money, not spend it on whatever business you just started.
This imminent stuff is taking for-freaking-ever...

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Matchmaker
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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby Matchmaker » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:08 am

shadow wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:24 pm
The new church program might be a sign that there are many more years of a good economy. One of the worst things to do just prior to an economic collapse is to start a business. Most small business start-ups fail already but to start a business just prior to a collapse is almost a guarantee fail. During economic downturns people tend to hold on to their money, not spend it on whatever business you just started.
You are the voice of reason. Let's hope you are right and that the inevitable is delayed at least a few more years.

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby buffalo_girl » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:51 am

Glad to see there is discussion on this new program. Our Stake just introduced it to our area.

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby mirkwood » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:37 am

shadow wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:24 pm
The new church program might be a sign that there are many more years of a good economy. One of the worst things to do just prior to an economic collapse is to start a business. Most small business start-ups fail already but to start a business just prior to a collapse is almost a guarantee fail. During economic downturns people tend to hold on to their money, not spend it on whatever business you just started.
Elder Richard L. Evans said: “Some of the brethren … approached [President Wilford Woodruff] and … inquired of him as to when he felt the end would be—when would be the coming of the Master? These, I think, are not his exact words, but they convey the spirit of his reported reply: ‘I would live as if it were to be tomorrow—but I am still planting cherry trees!’ I think we may well take this as a page for our own book and live as if the end might be tomorrow—and still plant cherry trees! In worrying about things that are beyond our reach, we should not overlook our opportunities with our own families and friends; in worrying about possible eventualities we should not neglect the things that need to be done here and now, and that are within our reach” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1950, 105–6).
God, family, country, our three great loyalties.

No true Latter-day Saint will ever take a stand that is in opposition to what the Lord has revealed to those who direct the affairs of his earthly kingdom. ~Bruce R. McConkie, CR Oct 1984

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby Robin Hood » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:45 am

mirkwood wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:37 am
shadow wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:24 pm
The new church program might be a sign that there are many more years of a good economy. One of the worst things to do just prior to an economic collapse is to start a business. Most small business start-ups fail already but to start a business just prior to a collapse is almost a guarantee fail. During economic downturns people tend to hold on to their money, not spend it on whatever business you just started.
Elder Richard L. Evans said: “Some of the brethren … approached [President Wilford Woodruff] and … inquired of him as to when he felt the end would be—when would be the coming of the Master? These, I think, are not his exact words, but they convey the spirit of his reported reply: ‘I would live as if it were to be tomorrow—but I am still planting cherry trees!’ I think we may well take this as a page for our own book and live as if the end might be tomorrow—and still plant cherry trees! In worrying about things that are beyond our reach, we should not overlook our opportunities with our own families and friends; in worrying about possible eventualities we should not neglect the things that need to be done here and now, and that are within our reach” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1950, 105–6).
I've heard that saying too, and concur with it.
Just one point though; we'll still need cherry trees in the millennium.

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby Silver » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:51 am

Robin Hood wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:45 am
mirkwood wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:37 am
shadow wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:24 pm
The new church program might be a sign that there are many more years of a good economy. One of the worst things to do just prior to an economic collapse is to start a business. Most small business start-ups fail already but to start a business just prior to a collapse is almost a guarantee fail. During economic downturns people tend to hold on to their money, not spend it on whatever business you just started.
Elder Richard L. Evans said: “Some of the brethren … approached [President Wilford Woodruff] and … inquired of him as to when he felt the end would be—when would be the coming of the Master? These, I think, are not his exact words, but they convey the spirit of his reported reply: ‘I would live as if it were to be tomorrow—but I am still planting cherry trees!’ I think we may well take this as a page for our own book and live as if the end might be tomorrow—and still plant cherry trees! In worrying about things that are beyond our reach, we should not overlook our opportunities with our own families and friends; in worrying about possible eventualities we should not neglect the things that need to be done here and now, and that are within our reach” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1950, 105–6).
I've heard that saying too, and concur with it.
Just one point though; we'll still need cherry trees in the millennium.
And gold and silver, too.
As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. (T)he worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Ezra Taft Benson

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby buffalo_girl » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:41 pm

And gold and silver, too.

I don't know about silver, but the Lakota People here call gold 'that yellow rock that makes Wasichus (white people) crazy'.

My son & I just read 3Nephi 16 this morning. Serious warnings to the latter-day Gentile - both in and out of the Church.

Last summer a sacred Council fire was started by the Elders at Standing Rock, across the Missouri River from where I live. Indigenous delegates representing over 200 Nations came from all over the earth to join that Council. When the camp was abandoned in December, coals from the sacred fire were carried outward to their own lands in order to strengthen the resolve to protect Turtle Island - to Honor the The Creator and the Creation.

Something momentous is unfolding. There is a great struggle ahead. We need to be sure we are in tune with our intended destinies. Whatever work we undertake needs to be in harmony with the Holy Spirit as we transition into being a ZION People.

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Re: New Self-Reliance Program... Economic Collapse Ahead?

Postby lundbaek » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:20 am

Years ago now, back in the early 1970s if my memory serves me right, our stake president and his wife were planning and had saved for a trip to the "Holy Land". But as the wife told my wife, they felt inspired to donate that money to the fund for building the Washington, D.C. Temple, which they did.


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