For Kathyn, quotes and comments about Salvation.

[bobhenstra]

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Kathyn, everybody; Every prophet I quote, everything I say in this thread is my opinion,

This treatise is about the subject of Salvation. Its in two parts; The first part does not contain everything I had in the original, by the same token some quotes in the first part are not contained in the original. For clarification only, my original treatise follows my answers to Kathyn and others on the second page.
___________________________________________________________________________

Thank you Kathyn, but I suppose it depends on who you talk to. It's very strange how people will look me up after a lesson, meeting or class to ask me a question about something said, next thing you know I'm explaining myself in front of my Bishop or Stake President. They never attempt to set me straight about what I say, they say; "just be careful" So,--- I'm careful--, the discussion usually ends when I playfully request a list of prophets I can quote, or cannot quote--because that's how I usually answer questions, with a quote from a prophet or scripture.

I have often been disappointed during Sunday School and priesthood classes as instructors present the gospel in what I consider a haphazard way, i.e. making "out of the blue" statements he or she considers factual when they are not! These fallacies are called by various names by real searchers, Sunday school doctrines, teachings of the fathers doctrines, or doctrines and false histories passed down from fathers to children without thought to test them in the very way we are clearly instructed by the Lord to do so. In reality, there simply isn't much testing done by utilizing the Spirit.

Those who make a determined study of the scripture understand that they must “apply their hearts to understanding” in order to determine which interpretations of the teachings are true, casting out those which do not pass the test.

Applying our hearts to understanding, just what does that mean? We get some very clear hints from the scripture; The 9th section of the Doctrine and Covenants tells us we must study a concept out in our minds, pray about the concept, and expect an answer, burning in the bosom if the concept is true or confusion of thought if false. Indeed Luke and Cleopus on the road to Emaus after seeing and speaking to our Savior ask; “Did not our hearts burn within us?” and as recorded, Abinadi chastising the priests of wicked King Noah declared;

---Are you priests, and pretend to teach this people, and to understand the spirit of prophesying, and yet desire to know of me what these things mean? I say unto you, wo be unto you for perverting the ways of the Lord! For if ye understand these things ye have not taught them; therefore, ye have perverted the ways of the Lord. Ye have not applied your hearts to understanding; therefore, ye have not been wise. Therefore, what teach ye this people? (Mosiah 12:26-27.)

Indeed, what teach ye this people? If as parents, instructors or students we are not able to apply our hearts to understanding; What our we teaching this people, what are we learning? As a parent or spouse we do not know how to apply our hearts to understanding, what are we teaching our families? How do we know what we are teaching or learning is true? Is the fact that we simply heard something in church sufficient? Perhaps we misunderstood what we heard, shouldn’t we make an effort to understand correctly?

Almost everybody in the True Church is familiar with Moroni’s declaration;

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. (Moroni 10:3-5.) Did you see Kathyn?? "All things!!!"

And how about the famous scripture in James that caused the Prophet Joseph Smith to inquire of the Lord about the churches of his day;

“If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.” (James 1:5)

How? How shall it be given us, Moroni says ”by the power of the Holy Ghost!” All these examples “burning in the heart,” burning in the bosom, the “swelling motions” described by Alma, the feelings of absolute peace of mind described by our Lord, all products of the Holy Ghost.

So, how do we accomplish this? How do we learn to apply our hearts to understanding? Really, it’s a process, actually a very simple process, we do as Moroni instructed. We read the Book of Mormon one or two chapters at a time, ponder what we have read, get on our knees, bow our heads and pray about it. We make it simple, asking if what we have just read and pondered is true, and “if” we do not cast it out by our unbelief as Alma instructs, the Lord promises we “will” receive an answer. We pray praising our Father in Heaven, thanking him for all he has given us, and asking for conformation of the truthfulness of what we just read, then ending our prayer in the name of Jesus Christ. However, we must learn not to cast out the things of God because we will receive no immediate answer, this involves the pondering. So we read a few more chapters, ponder, get on our knees and pray again. And we continue reading and pondering until we receive the witness of the Holy Ghost that the Lord, who cannot lie, promised us.

There is an even more important reason to learn to apply our hearts to understanding, it's in understanding that the Holy Ghost cannot dwell in unclean tabernacles. So, is it possible that's the reason so few of us attempt to "apply our hearts to understanding?" Somehow we believe we are so wicked, the Holy Ghost would never do that for me! That's simply wrong! Look at the story of Alma the Younger, are you as wicked as he once was? The Holy ghost cleanses us before he can dwell within us, that's what happened to Joseph Smith just before he saw the Father and the Son, the grief he experienced, he was remembering his sins, all of them, then he was cleansed, and "saw"! We are cleansed of our sins back to our babtism. That's why Joseph Fielding Smith can say "he doesn't worry about sin, he can repent to fast!" None of us can stand in the presence of any member of the Godhood without first being cleansed by the Holy Ghost.

Seeking the Spirit, that's the key! And the promise is there, seek and ye shall find!

Bob

[joseph]

Bob,

Last Sunday's priesthood lesson was on the marvelous way that Joseph Smith understood and could teach the Gospel. He did indeed have a great knowledge. He acquired this knowledge by a constant of study, pondering, and prayer. I commented that any one of us in this room could also gain the same knowledge as Brother Joseph, if we applied ourselves in the same way. This statement was met with disbelief by others in the quorum. Others in the room said that Joseph was ordained to receive such pearls of wisdom. Only he could have received such an understanding.

[kathyn]

Bob, you are wise. Thank you for that response. I pray that the time will come when all these things will be resolved.

I have been the Gospel Doctrine teacher twice in our ward. I always spent at least 10-12 hours preparing and studying the lessons. (I was very careful to make sure I used approved sources and if something was just my opinion, I said so.) I've found that there are so many different levels of understanding and spirituality in the classroom, so it's sometimes difficult to teach on everyone's level. Be patient and hopefully your desire will be approved by the Lord in His time.

In the meantime, continue to teach us here at the forum because I'm benefiting and I'm sure others are, too.

[kathyn]

Joseph, that was a great thought you had.

I commented that any one of us in this room could also gain the same knowledge as Brother Joseph, if we applied ourselves in the same way.

It's so simple! Yet it is the truth! We have great power given to us if we'll but use it. It's a shame (I'm one of these) that we don't take advantage of all the knowledge we could have but don't bother to try to get it.

[bobhenstra]

The highest "principal of freedom" is knowing the truth, it will make us free! All I write, speak and quote in this thread and others, is my opinion! ( A disclaimer for the spies------)

To the Philippian Saints, Paul wrote: "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

But Mormon quoting Nephi says "Salvation is free for all men"

(23) For behold, my beloved brethren, I say unto you that the Lord God worketh not in darkness.

(24) He doeth not anything save it be for the benefit of the world; for he loveth the world, even that he layeth down his own life that he may draw all men unto him. Wherefore, he commandeth none that they shall not partake of his salvation.

(25) Behold, doth he cry unto any, saying: Depart from me? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but he saith: Come unto me all ye ends of the earth, buy milk and honey, without money and without price.

(26) Behold, hath he commanded any that they should depart out of the synagogues, or out of the houses of worship? Behold, I say unto you, Nay.

(27) Hath he commanded any that they should not partake of his salvation? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but he hath given it free for all men; and he hath commanded his people that they should persuade all men to repentance.

(28) Behold, hath the Lord commanded any that they should not partake of his goodness? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but all men are privileged the one like unto the other, and none are forbidden.(2 Nephi 26:23-28.)

If Salvation is free as quoted in 2nd Nephi, how then do we work out our own salvation, as Paul states?

Again;

."Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"

Robert Millit says it much better than I can: " "This is a passage of scripture we quote frequently to reinforce the truth that men and women do indeed have a role to play in their own salvation, that a mere verbal profession of one's faith is not sufficient. It is, however, a passage of scripture that must be read in context. Saints of the Most High are expected to do their duty, to strive with all their might to keep their part of the gospel covenant, to live above the world and its lowly standards, and to fear or reverence the Almighty. Yet those of us who are more than distant acquaintances with holy writ know assuredly that not one of us has the power or the mortal capacity to "work out" our own salvation. We did not create ourselves, and we cannot redeem ourselves. We cannot forgive our own sins, transform our own nature, or raise ourselves from the dead. We cannot create a celestial kingdom, and we cannot exalt ourselves into that glorious abode. (all gifts of the Spirit)
The next verse helps us to understand: "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13). It is the power of God—the power of his Holy Spirit—that works within those who have been born of the Spirit, that inspires them to action, that motivates and empowers and directs them in performing their duties (Robert L. Millet, Alive in Christ: The Miracle of Spiritual Rebirth, pages 22 - 23.)""

I often wonder why we make it so difficult on ourselves to seek and to understand the Spirit? We have no wish to understand all things? We love our sins? Do we not claim we trust the Lord? Then---Trust him!!

Bob

[kathyn]

Bob, King Benjamin explained it so well in his great sermon....that we will always be in debt to our Father and the Savior...we would always be unprofitable servants....so that after all we can do, it's still the sacrifice of the Savior that makes our salvation possible. The great thing about the Gospel is that we know that our works are important, along with our faith. How else can we ever hope to become like God? Unless we do His works, we can't possibly emulate God, let alone know Him. We are just babes yet with so much to learn, but by the learning and doing...that's how we progress.

[ithink]

...It's very strange how people will look me up after a lesson, meeting or class to ask me a question about something said, next thing you know I'm explaining myself in front of my Bishop or Stake President. They never attempt to set me straight about what I say, they say; "just be careful" So,--- I'm careful--, the discussion usually ends when I playfully request a list of prophets I can quote, or cannot quote--because that's how I usually answer questions, with a quote from a prophet or scripture...

Hmmmmm... I've been in that same boat. I was told the exact same thing as you -- "be careful", but with not one iota of information or instruction on what that meant, not one jot or tittle.

So we just keep on going, keep loving, and keep trying, that is all we can do.

[bobhenstra]

I have been known to get lost in King Benjamins address, spend hours there, love the man!

I like to carry a few copies of the following quotes with me, stops a lot of potential arguments.

Joseph Smith; "It has always been my province to dig up hidden mysteries—
new things—for my hearers. (teachings p.364)" "I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief."

Joseph Smith; "We deem it a just principle . . . that all men are created equal, and that all have the privilege of thinking for themselves upon all matters relative to conscience. Consequently, then, we are not disposed, had we the power, to deprive any one of exercising that free independence of mind which heaven has so graciously bestowed upon the human family as one of its choicest gifts."

Joseph Smith; “The Savior has the words of eternal life. Nothing else can
profit us. There is no salvation in believing an evil report against our neighbor.
I advise all to go on to perfection, and search deeper and deeper into the
mysteries of Godliness. A man can do nothing for himself unless God direct
him in the right way; and the Priesthood is revealed for that purpose.”
( Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.364)

Alma explains the blessings of proper search and study of the scriptures
and the destructive results of "willful ignorance" of the word of God.

9. And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given
unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a
strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.
10. And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same received the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11. And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of
the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. (Alma 12:9-11.)

Having Little knowledge is described by Alma as "the chains of hell!" Get to much knowledge and supposed faithful church members have no problem with condemning you to hell! Wacky world!

Our standard works and the words of our modern-day prophets are "the portion of his word" referred to in the above passage, it's what has been revealed! The problem we searchers have is in getting people to understand what we are saying "has been revealed!"

Bob

[kathyn]

nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

Perhaps this is the most important part of what you've quoted.....maybe most members are not ready to receive what you know. The knowledge you've acquired might be important for you to know but not for everyone. That's just my 2 cents, anyhow. Since we're each at a different stage of our gospel understanding, it might be too "heavy" for some right now.

[bobhenstra]

Kathyn,

So, are you saying what I've said so far is to heavy for you, or are you making a judgment based on your understanding of what the majority of the church members are willing to understand?

You see Kathyn, there are two types of mysteries, those mysteries that haven't been revealed and those that have been revealed, but are not searched for or understood by non searchers. I seek the latter, I care little about the former. However, non searchers tend to lump the mysteries of both groups into a single group. A non searcher will declare if "I" don't understand it, it’s a mystery, we're NOT suppose to be talking about it, and we have been warned time and time again not to study the mysteries. And I respond with "why then are they revealed?" If something is revealed isn't there a reason for that revelation?

For example, among the mysteries that haven't been revealed are those that science searches for that Paul describes as the people who "are ever learning, but never coming to a knowledge of the truth." The mysteries we're supposed to study are simply somewhat hidden in the revealed word, and all it takes is a little searching to dig them out. But members of the church seem frightened to death when revealed mysteries they themselves won’t take the time to understand, are talked about. But science isn’t alone in these endless obsessions, uninspired religionists are equally ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth. And sadly, that includes many members of the true church.

I’ll give you an example of some deep very heavy revelations the we have received, that most in the true church avoid like the plague.

I read about science attempting to understand the “theory of everything” Something a bit more in depth then E=mc2 (hmm, my computer won’t put the 2 [squared] portion where it’s supposed to be). However, computer problems aside, the “Law of Everything” is clear as a bell in D&C 88, speaking of the light of Christ, his power.

7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.

8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;

9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;

10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.

11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things. (Doctrine and Covenants 88:7-13.)

So you see Kathyn, “The law of Everything” has been revealed! It’d be my great pleasure to have scientists in the true church like my friends Dr Jones and Dr Al Benson, men gifted in the subjects of math and physics put those scriptures to equation (like E=mc2), so the rest of science and religion might make the attempt to understand God, “even if“, science or uninspired religion didn’t immediately understand the true source of the equation, as the Lamanites didn’t realize what happened to them, being cleansed by the Holy Ghost, and knew it not (3 Nephi 9:20-21 concerning Helaman 5) A little of Amman’s guile is suggested here Steve! Even if science doesn’t recognize the formula as God inspired, the time would eventually arrive when they would, as it did with those Lamanites.

Kathyn its not my intention to suggest you or anyone else swim in the deep end of the revealed doctrine pool of pure knowledge. You’ll get there when it’s time. Stay in the shallows as long as you think it prudent.

I mentioned before how JoAnn would light up in our discussions of doctrinal subjects, I was often amazed how the Spirit worked with her giving her information about doctrinal subjects I had not yet considered. I loved those discussions, as did she. How I’d like to be with her now in Paradise in the presence of our Lord partaking in the discussions with her there.

I have many favorite scriptures, many favorite quotes from our prophets, one of those favorites is this one from Orson Pratt:

It is an old sectarian whim and notion, to suppose that we must not try to understand revelation. You know that when they come to something in the divine records which they do not understand, they will say—"Oh, the Lord never intended us to understand that, that is a mystery, we must not search into these things, they are mysteries." Just as though the Lord would reveal something that he never intended or wished the human family to understand. Saying nothing about the Deity, it would be an act of foolishness on the part of a man to attempt a revelation of something that he never intended his fellow-men to understand. The Lord is more consistent then man; and if he reveals anything, he surely intends that thing to be for the profit and edification of the pure in heart. (Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. 17: 326.)

So there it is. If the Lord or his Prophets have spoken on a truth, and if their words are recorded, then we as members are free to search, study and seek to understand every subject upon which they have spoken! In fact, considering the following statement of Christ, it's an obligation!

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Indeed, we will learn that glory, truth and light are all synonyms of intelligence. Different words with the same meaning.

Bob

[p51-mustang]

Bob, I am with you on this idea of understanding the mysteries. We have this commandment too:

Sec 88:
77 And I give unto you a commandment that you shall teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom.
78 Teach ye diligently and my grace shall attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand;
79 Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms

I dont know how many times I have had members tell my that I am working in the extremes of the gospel when talking about current events and the secret combine. I have learned a great deal about what is going on in this nation behind the scenes by study, pondering and prayer then came the revelation to my mind.

We have been commanded here in Sec 88 to study current events, the wars, perplexities (the financial crisis is the mother of all perplexities) things coming to pass etc. It amazes me that after obeying this commandment to study these things and then sharing what I have learned with members I am attacked and called a fanatic, extremist etc.

We only saved as fast as we gain knowledge. The revealed mysteries help us to gain salvation.

[kathyn]

Bobhenstra

So, are you saying what I've said so far is to heavy for you, or are you making a judgment based on your understanding of what the majority of the church members are willing to understand?

Not at all. I like the deep things and it's not too heavy for me. (I read The Kolob Theorem last year). I'm just saying that many members are not there, yet. For us, as members, it's always been line upon line and precept upon precept and it's very individual. The lessons are geared to all members and it's up to us to learn quite a bit for ourselves, when we are ready. For instance, my son-in-law is not a member but is starting to get interested. If and when he comes to church, he's still very much in the milk phase. I see the meat as being for members who really understand the simpler parts of the gospel. I imagine that the really deep things can be discussed with those who are ready to receive it and when the Spirit lets us know it's appropriate.

[keeprunning]

But even if you've sat through the same talk or lesson dozens of times, read the same scripture hundreds of times, sitting through all that "milk" as everyone calls it, you can still be edified if you have the Spirit with you and allow the words to sink deep as you ponder.

[kathyn]

p51-mustang

We have been commanded here in Sec 88 to study current events, the wars, perplexities (the financial crisis is the mother of all perplexities) things coming to pass etc. It amazes me that after obeying this commandment to study these things and then sharing what I have learned with members I am attacked and called a fanatic, extremist etc.

Once you realize that most people's world view has been formed by the media (and we know who controls them!), then you can see why a lot of things are foreign to them and it will take some time for them to come around, especially younger members. I suggest having them read certain scriptures and liken them to our time. Then you can point them to some good books (like Beneath the Tide) or articles that hint at the SCs and LDGs of our time. As our world comes crashing down, they're going to want to know why and then they're going to be more in tune. In the meantime, encourage them to work on their personal preparedness. We're supposed to warn our neighbors and that's what I try to do all of the time.

[kathyn]

keeprunning

But even if you've sat through the same talk or lesson dozens of times, read the same scripture hundreds of times, sitting through all that "milk" as everyone calls it, you can still be edified if you have the Spirit with you and allow the words to sink deep as you ponder.

That's exactly right. In our SS classes we do get some really deep insights and the Spirit is truly present. I don't know if this is typical in other wards or not, but we do get quite a bit of "meat" each Sunday. It's not controversial or anything but we certainly get much deeper meanings out of the scriptures.

[buffalo_girl]

D&C 131:6
6 It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.

Sec 88:
77 And I give unto you a commandment that you shall teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom.
78 Teach ye diligently and my grace shall attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand;
79 Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms

That's one of my favorites, too.

Let the Spirit prompt you when to 'share' your 'understanding'. Sometimes I'm prompted to say something to someone almost 'out of the blue'. I may not say much, but I can feel the Spirit confirm the truth of what I say. Most often the other person is startled and does not respond. Perhaps that little piece of information will open another's mind enough to allow additional knowledge to be 'added upon' - not necessarily from me.

I'm not sure most people are choosing to be ignorant, but the outcome for staying ignorant once knowledge becomes apparent has to risk one's spiritual and physical safety.

[believer]

This is a very interesting thread. I like to get into the deeper things as well. There have been times when I have shared something that I have studied, and thought through, and then shared, or asked questions about, and I will be met with stares, or just told that it isn't so. I'm not saying I know everything, or anything like that, but somethings are very plain in the scriptures if you will just take the time to search and study it out, and pray.

I have even been told that Cleon Skousen makes things up, and I know that is not true. He had more integrity in his little finger than most people have totally.

What I am most concerned about in studying about the SC, is to know the truth. Sometimes that is not so easy, but I pray all of the time that I will know the truth.

Some things are hard to understand, but we will never understand if we don't try to study it out and pray about it.

I hope I'm making sense.

Believer

[bobhenstra]

Jo used to comment in her quaint way, "love them scriptures!" In the 88th Section we are instructed to "learn by study and also by faith!" Interesting concept, learning by "faith!"

Every doctrinal concept is it's own pond, from shallow to a deep understanding, but if we’re studying correctly it isn’t long before we realize how all those ponds are connected.

Before we read about the chains of hell, and how knowledge helps us rid ourselves of those chains, and what is probably the first step in that journey, of understanding Salvation. We start with Elder Bruce R. McConkie explains how we can avoid or escape being entangled in the "chains of hell." I’m rather long here, and will repeat something’s already said;

Since salvation comes to those who both know and do the will of the Lord, the saints are under express command both to search the scriptures and to keep the commandments. (John 5:39; D. & C. 1:37-39; 3 Ne. 23.)

They are to "teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom" (D. & C. 88:77), for "It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance" of God, of Christ, and of the gospel laws. (D. & C. 131:6.) (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols., Vol. 1, p. 56)

Elder McConkie continues: "To learn the doctrines of salvation men: (1) Must search the scriptures diligently themselves (3 Ne. 23); (2) They must hearken to the voice of the prophets and inspired interpreters of the divine
word who are sent among them; and (3) They must themselves so live as to have the spirit and gift of scriptural understanding and interpretation … "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus," Paul taught the
Romans, "and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. … For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! . . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."(Rom. 10:9-17)

"But after personal study and research, and after being taught by an inspired teacher who does have the power of interpretation, the gospel student must get the revelations of the Spirit [for] himself. Only then will the full and clear meaning of the scriptures be unfolded. This principle is the basic rule of scriptural interpretation. "Knowing this first," Peter said, "that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2 Pet. 1:20-21.) It is only when the Holy Ghost reveals anew the same truth as originally given in the scripture that its full and perfect meaning is known.

"After the baptism of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, the Holy Ghost fell upon them in a miraculous manner. "We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation," the Prophet said. "Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of." (Jos. Smith 2:73-74.) Truly the things of God are known only by the power of the Spirit of God." (1 Cor. 2.)

Brother McConkie continues: "In the world today there is an appalling ignorance of the true teachings of the scriptures. There has never been a time before when so many have known so little about Deity and or has there been a time when the opportunity to learn the basic principles of salvation has been available to so many. But instead, "darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people" (D. & C. 112:23); it is "as with the people, so with the priest" (Isa. 24:2); apostasy is universal, except among the Latter-day Saints.

"But even in the true Church there are few sound scriptorians and theologians who have a comprehensive knowledge of revealed truth. So far this dispensation has not been noted for the diffusion of real gospel scholarship among the elders and saints generally. There are few modern experts on the gospel. Few have paid the price of intense study, of determined self-discipline, and of righteous living necessary to gain a broad knowledge of the truths of salvation. Nearly all members of the Church need to study the revealed word far more than they now do. Even a brief daily study period works miracles in adding to one's knowledge of the doctrines of the gospel." (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols., Vol. 1, pp. 56-59)

Sorry about the repeats here, but I think they’re necessary for reinforcement.

Elder Orson Pratt commenting on revelations received from the Lord speaks about understanding:

It is an old sectarian whim and notion, to suppose that we must not try to understand revelation. You know that when they come to something in the divine records which they do not understand, they will say—"Oh, the Lord never intended us to understand that, that is a mystery, we must not search into these things, they are mysteries." Just as though the Lord would reveal something that he never intended or wished the human family to understand. Saying nothing about the Deity, it would be an act of foolishness on the part of a man to attempt a revelation of something that he never intended his fellow-men to understand. The Lord is more consistent then man; and if he reveals anything, he surely intends that thing to be for the profit and edification of the pure in heart. (Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. 17: 326.)

So there it is. If the Lord or his Prophets have spoken on a truth, and if their words are recorded, then we as members are free to search, study and seek to understand every subject upon which they have spoken! In fact, considering the following statement of Christ, it's an obligation!

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Sound like a commandment?

Indeed, we will learn that glory, truth and light are all synonyms of intelligence. Different words with the same meaning.

The term salvation has been partially defined for us by Joseph Smith as " freedom from the power of our enemies."

The Savior taught the Prophet and the Prophet Joseph taught us saying: " No man can be saved in ignorance (meaning ignorance of the gospel)."

Man's search for the full and correct meaning of salvation in the stage of life we call mortality, then seems to be predicated on his degree of intelligence. It was true in the stage called pre mortality. This seems natural to the serious gospel student when we remember that our "knowledge" or lack of it, is the only portion of mortality that passes with us into the next stage of existence. That place which we commonly call "the spirit world" is actually right here with us. However, in that next stage of existence worldly knowledge is not included as knowledge of any "great worth" . For example, I have no idea what a lawyer or even a doctor might accomplish in the spirit world, if being a lawyer or doctor is the limit of an individuals knowledge. When you consider that as mortals we spend less then two hours of the Lords time here in mortality, perhaps, we just might make an attempt to understand the scriptures, listen to the prophets, and especially understand the Temple, which understanding is of "great worth" in the next stage of our existence.

Bob

[ChelC]

I agree Bob. I've always pondered on the statement that the Glory of God is Intelligence. You know how some things just come up over and over again in your life and you know that you're meant to delve deep into them? That's how this simple statement is for me. It appears in my patriarchal blessing and during many times of challenge it has continually presented itself in various ways. I know there is something more I'm supposed to get from it.

Anyhow, what is salvation other than being worthy of and partaking of light and glory? If the glory of God is intelligence then it seems pretty important to gain understanding, light and intelligence or we'd be out of place. Lack of knowledge is darkness. Darkness cannot dwell amidst light. We know that all have the ability to become as gods. It cannot be done without having a perfect knowledge and near as I can tell we have to work for that knowledge, little by little.

When Joseph Smith was being prepared to receive the plates, he was taught much. God didn't just sync with him and give him all knowledge instantly. He was prepared from boyhood, and prepared for years even after the first vision. The founders of our nation were likewise prepared to fill their missions. We cannot expect to achieve greatness without stepping out of our comfort zones and toiling to get it.

[bobhenstra]

What great comments!

Now we're getting into deeper doctrinal waters, after reading these quotes I have had people tell me that these church authorities were speaking as men and not as prophets, what nonsense! However, I'll not underline anything in these passages and quotes and let the reader test yourselves with his/her ability to "see!" I'll color my words so there can be no confusion. However, the fact that we do not understand or agree with a prophet or scriptural statement, does not make the prophet wrong! We simply must understand, and not reject truths because they contradict what we learned in Sunday School. I request, after reading these passages, that you PM me with the passages in which you "see," or hear the still small voice, colored or marked in some way, underlining would be great.

Joseph Smith: "Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection . And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come." (Doctrine & Covenants, 130:18-19)

Please notice above that the prophet is talking about the resurrection, not the spirit world. And notice also that the word "world" is singular not plural. It refers to "The Kingdom of God in heaven," or this earth when it is celestialized. We remember that there are three (3) degrees of glory (intelligence) in the Celestial Kingdom. ( The "glory" of God is intelligence, D&C 93:36 )

The Apostle Paul counseled the wavering Timothy: 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2 Timothy 3:14-17)

"Wise unto salvation"

Just what does that word salvation mean? How are the scriptures "able" to make Timothy and the rest of us "wise unto salvation?" Above we read a partial definition of salvation. Let's read it again, and finish the definition as stated by the prophet Joseph. Then perhaps we will see how each of us may become "wise unto salvation." We are then able to "work" out our own salvation, by increasing our knowledge of the scriptures." (Philippians 2:12)

The prophet Joseph Smith taught: "Salvation is for a man to be saved from all his enemies; for until a man can triumph over death, he is not saved. A knowledge of the priesthood alone will do this." (Teachings , p. 305; see also pp. 297, 301)

"Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in no thing else; and no being can possess it but himself (Jehovah) or one like him." (Lectures on Faith 7:9)

This is important to understand. Let's repeat it; "and no being can possess it (salvation) but himself (Christ) or one like him!" Or one like him! Do you see that?

The prophet Joseph again: " Salvation is the ultimate fruit of faith, for salvation consists of being- with and like Jesus Christ, who is the prototype of a saved being . Those who wish to be saved must thereby seek to become as Christ is . "When men begin to live by faith they begin to draw near to God; and when faith is perfected they are like him; and because he is saved they are saved also." (Lectures on Faith 7:8; see also 6:1 1; 7:9.) In this light the plan of salvation becomes "a system of faith—it begins with faith, and continues by faith; and every blessing which is obtained in relation to it is the effect of faith, whether it pertains to this life or that (stage of life) which is to come." (Lectures on Faith 7:17)

There can be no faith without knowledge. You cannot have faith in God unless you first have knowledge of God. Then as you gain knowledge, your faith increases until you have perfect knowledge! Let's use this key of "knowledge" to understand our salvation.

What does the Lord say about salvation?

Doctrine and Covenants 6:13 If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God ; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.

Now notice what the Lord "who cannot lie" says about eternal life "And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God." (Doctrine and Covenants 14:7)

The Lord in his plainness seems to be stating that the terms "salvation, save, saved, and eternal life have the same meaning. Let's see if the brethren, our prophets and apostles, can help clarify the matter for us.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie has written: "We are ofttimes prone to create artificial distinctions, to say that salvation means one thing and exaltation another, to suppose that salvation means to be resurrected, but that exaltation or eternal life is something in addition thereto. It is true that there are some passages of scripture that use salvation in a special and limited sense in order to give an overall perspective of the plan of salvation that we would not otherwise have. (2 Nephi 9:1-27; D&C 76:40-49; D&C 132:15-17.) These passages show the difference between general or universal salvation that consists of coming forth from the grave in immortality, and specific or individual salvation that consists of an inheritance in the celestial kingdom. (Alma 11:40)

"Since it is the prophetic purpose to lead men to full salvation in the highest heaven of the celestial world, when they speak and write about salvation, almost without exception, they mean eternal life or exaltation . They use the terms salvation, exaltation, and eternal life as synonyms , as words that mean exactly the same thing without any difference, distinction, or variance whatever." ( Promised Messiah, p. 129.)

The above statement by Elder McConkie is in perfect harmony with the prior statements of our Lord.
If one takes a large bite (portion) out of the "salvation" apple, does the rest of the fruit remain apple. Are you able to consume the remainder? If you obtain a portion of salvation, are you able to partake of the rest? Let's see what the Lord proclaims. Remember that the " glory" of God is intelligence, and that the Lord cannot lie!

In the Doctrine and Covenants we read: 25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom , for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—
26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it (as they become righteous)
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness .
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness. (Doctrine and Covenants 88:25-31)

Now, notice that the Lord here is speaking about what will happen when this earth becomes a celestialized earth with its "glories", as in "The Three Degrees of Glory in the Celestial Kingdom" (fullness of the earth).

What are the names of those three degrees of glory? If we have been attentive, we should have discovered those names. Once you are in the celestialized earth and its kingdoms or glories, even if it's just by the skin of your teeth, are you are then able to go to the top of that Celestial kingdom? There is also mentioned in the scripture a "degree without glory or little intelligence". More about this later.

Elder John A. Widtsoe provides insight into a mortal responsibility that we agreed to in the premortal world and which is of great importance. He highlights a contractual agreement we made concerning the eternal welfare of all the sons and daughters of our Eternal Father:

Brother Widtsoe: "In our pre-existent state, in the day of the great council, we made a certain agreement with the Almighty. The Lord proposed a plan, conceived by him. We accepted it . Since the plan is intended for all men (mankind), we become parties to the salvation of every person under the plan. We agreed, right then and there, to be not only saviors for ourselves, but measurably saviors for the whole human family . We went into a partnership with the Lord. The working out of the plan became then not merely the Father's work, and Savior's work, but also our work. The least of us, the humblest, is in partnership with the Almighty in achieving the purpose of the eternal plan of salvation (John A. Widtsoe, "The Worth of Souls," Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine, October 1934, p. 189).

Bob

[ChelC]

Okay, I will mark what is standing out to me. These are some pretty awesome passages and if I'm understanding these correctly they have a pretty incredible symbolism with the temple ceremony, which obviously I won't be sharing.

Joseph Smith: "Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection . And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come." (Doctrine & Covenants, 130:18-19)

I think this passage is fairly plain, but studying the other passages, that our degree of intelligence is in direct relation to our degree of salvation.

Please notice above that the prophet is talking about the resurrection, not the spirit world. And notice also that the word "world" is singular not plural. It refers to "The Kingdom of God in heaven," or this earth when it is celestialized. We remember that there are three (3) degrees of glory (intelligence) in the Celestial Kingdom. ( The "glory" of God is intelligence, D&C 93:36 )

The Apostle Paul counseled the wavering Timothy: 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2 Timothy 3:14-17)

"Wise unto salvation"

Just what does that word salvation mean? How are the scriptures "able" to make Timothy and the rest of us "wise unto salvation?" Above we read a partial definition of salvation. Let's read it again, and finish the definition as stated by the prophet Joseph. Then perhaps we will see how each of us may become "wise unto salvation." We are then able to "work" out our own salvation, by increasing our knowledge of the scriptures." (Philippians 2:12)

The prophet Joseph Smith taught: "Salvation is for a man to be saved from all his enemies; for until a man can triumph over death, he is not saved. A knowledge of the priesthood alone will do this." (Teachings , p. 305; see also pp. 297, 301)

"Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in no thing else; and no being can possess it but himself or one like him." (Lectures on Faith 7:9)

This is important to understand. Let's repeat it; "and no being can possess it (salvation) but himself (Christ) or one like him!"

Obviously we cannot be like Him without partaking of the knowledge He possesses. This is reminding me of Lehi's dream.

The prophet Joseph again: " Salvation is the ultimate fruit of faith, for salvation consists of being- with and like Jesus Christ, who is the prototype of a saved being . Those who wish to be saved must thereby seek to become as Christ is . "When men begin to live by faith they begin to draw near to God; and when faith is perfected they are like him; and because he is saved they are saved also." (Lectures on Faith 7:8; see also 6:1 1; 7:9.) In this light the plan of salvation becomes "a system of faith—it begins with faith, and continues by faith; and every blessing which is obtained in relation to it is the effect of faith, whether it pertains to this life or that (stage of life) which is to come." (Lectures on Faith 7:17)

If you apply the above to Lehi's dream it's just incredible.

There can be no faith without knowledge. You cannot have faith in God unless you first have knowledge of God. Then as you gain knowledge, your faith increases until you have perfect knowledge! Let's use this key of "knowledge" to understand our salvation.

What does the Lord say about salvation?

Doctrine and Covenants 6:13 If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God ; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.

Again, I keep imagining the dream. "Faithful to the end" is sticking out to me especially.

Now notice what the Lord "who cannot lie" says about eternal life "And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God." (Doctrine and Covenants 14:7)

The Lord in his plainness seems to be stating that the terms "salvation, save, saved, and eternal life have the same meaning. Let's see if the brethren, our prophets and apostles, can help clarify the matter for us.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie has written: "We are ofttimes prone to create artificial distinctions, to say that salvation means one thing and exaltation another, to suppose that salvation means to be resurrected, but that exaltation or eternal life is something in addition thereto. It is true that there are some passages of scripture that use salvation in a special and limited sense in order to give an overall perspective of the plan of salvation that we would not otherwise have. (2 Nephi 9:1-27; D&C 76:40-49; D&C 132:15-17.) These passages show the difference between general or universal salvation that consists of coming forth from the grave in immortality, and specific or individual salvation that consists of an inheritance in the celestial kingdom. (Alma 11:40)

James E. Faust said in "Dear are the Sheep who have Wandered"
"Repentant wayward children will enjoy salvation and all the blessings that go with it, but exaltation is much more. It must be fully earned. The question as to who will be exalted must be left to the Lord in His mercy."

This seems to indicate that rather than salvation and exaltation being separate things, they are the same but have degrees as the kingdoms have degrees. Something is nagging at me to study more on the subject though, because I feel like I'm missing something.

"Since it is the prophetic purpose to lead men to full salvation in the highest heaven of the celestial world, when they speak and write about salvation, almost without exception, they mean eternal life or exaltation . They use the terms salvation, exaltation, and eternal life as synonyms , as words that mean exactly the same thing without any difference, distinction, or variance whatever." ( Promised Messiah, p. 129.)

The above statement by Elder McConkie is in perfect harmony with the prior statements of our Lord.
If one takes a large bite (portion) out of the "salvation" apple, does the rest of the fruit remain apple. Are you able to consume the remainder? If you obtain a portion of salvation, are you able to partake of the rest? Let's see what the Lord proclaims. Remember that the " glory" of God is intelligence, and that the Lord cannot lie!

In the Doctrine and Covenants we read: 25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom , for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—
26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it (as they become righteous)
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness .
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness. (Doctrine and Covenants 88:25-31)

The first part that sticks out to me is "shall abide the power by which it is quickened" when speaking of the earth becoming a celestial earth or the earth's "resurrection" if you will. This also seems to indicate that the three kingdoms have the same names as the three degrees within the celestial kingdom. If I'm understanding this correctly, those who have risen to the celestial kingdom will attain the degree which matches their intelligence. As the earth was able to abide the power by which it was quickened, we cannot abide in a place where we have not the intelligence to be.

Now, notice that the Lord here is speaking about what will happen when this earth becomes a celestialized earth with its "glories", as in "The Three Degrees of Glory in the Celestial Kingdom" (fullness of the earth).

What are the names of those three degrees of glory? If we have been attentive, we should have discovered those names. Once you are in the celestialized earth and its kingdoms or glories, even if it's just by the skin of your teeth, are you are then able to go to the top of that Celestial kingdom? There is also mentioned in the scripture a "degree without glory or little intelligence". More about this later.

Elder John A. Widtsoe provides insight into a mortal responsibility that we agreed to in the premortal world and which is of great importance. He highlights a contractual agreement we made concerning the eternal welfare of all the sons and daughters of our Eternal Father:

Brother Widtsoe: "In our pre-existent state, in the day of the great council, we made a certain agreement with the Almighty. The Lord proposed a plan, conceived by him. We accepted it . Since the plan is intended for all men (mankind), we become parties to the salvation of every person under the plan. We agreed, right then and there, to be not only saviors for ourselves, but measurably saviors for the whole human family . We went into a partnership with the Lord. The working out of the plan became then not merely the Father's work, and Savior's work, but also our work. The least of us, the humblest, is in partnership with the Almighty in achieving the purpose of the eternal plan of salvation (John A. Widtsoe, "The Worth of Souls," Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine, October 1934, p. 189).

Bob

We have an obligation to share knowledge as we receive it, NOT to keep it to ourselves only.

I'll PM you just in case you're watching your e-mail to check on the thread. Thanks Bob... I hadn't made some of those connections. I have further searching to do.

[bobhenstra]

ChelC quoted Brother Faust;

James E. Faust said in "Dear are the Sheep who have Wandered"
"Repentant wayward children will enjoy salvation and all the blessings that go with it, but exaltation is much more. It must be fully earned. The question as to who will be exalted must be left to the Lord in His mercy."

We know Exaltation is a gift, is it not the giver of the gift that "earns" the price of the gift?

Bob

[bobhenstra]

Please remember this is all my opinion, and what the prophets here-in quoted expound upon is also my opinion!

Light cleaves to light, and facts are supported by facts. The truth injures no one."(Joseph Smith Jr. Times and Seasons, Vol. 3, No. 23, p. 927, October 1, 1842)

Salvation, Exaltation aand Eternal Life --And None Are Forbidden.
Thus we see that salvation, eternal life and exaltation are synonyms. All three have the same meaning. Let's discuss just who will be saved, or receive eternal life or exaltation.

The Apostle Paul: "For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially (first) of those that believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)

Howard W. Hunter: "I know that God lives, that he is the supreme power of heaven and earth. I bear witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ, the Savior of all mankind. My knowledge of these truths moves me to allegiance to divine sovereignty, also to sustain the law of the land." (Elder Howard W. Hunter, Conference Report, April 1968, page 66.)

Thomas S. Monson: "His laws were not inscribed upon stone, but upon human hearts. I speak of the master teacher, even Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of all mankind." (Elder Thomas S. Monson, Conference Report, April 1970)

Marion D. Hanks: "Jesus is his Son, the Savior of all mankind ; there is a plan, there is a Church. They have been restored to the earth, and the foundations of happy living are to be found in the principles and programs and inspiration of that Church." (Elder Marion D. Hanks, May 4, 1960, BYU Speeches of the Year, 1960)

John H. Groberg: "O Zion! Dear Zion! home of the free-home of the pure in heart-home of all who have overcome the world through Jesus Christ, the Savior of all mankind . In thy temples we'll bend; all thy rights we'll defend; and our home shall be ever with thee-the healer of the penitent and the purifier of all who will come to His Zion and enter into His rest." (John H. Groberg, The Fire of Faith, page 160)

Gordon B Hinckley: Your friendly ways are needed. Your sense of responsibility is needed. The Savior of all mankind left the ninety and nine to find the one lost. That one who was lost need not have become lost. But if he is out there somewhere in the shadows, and if it means leaving the ninety and nine, we must do so to find him. ("Converts and Young Men," Ensign, May 1997, pp. 47-48.)(Gordon B. Hinckley, Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley)

James E. Faust: There has come with my apostolic calling a sure witness of the life and ministry of the Savior. I declare with Job, "I know that my redeemer liveth." 17 My witness of this "is in heaven." 18 Jesus is the Christ, the Savior of all mankind. Joseph Smith was the inspired Prophet who restored the saving keys, authority, and organization delegated to him under the direction of God the Father and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Of this I testify in the holy name of Jesus Christ, amen (President James E. Faust, "Hope, an Anchor of the Soul," Ensign, November 1999.)
We need not be (more) redundant here. The phrase "Savior of all mankind" appears many times throughout the words of the prophets. However Parley P. Pratt as quoted by B. H. Roberts made a very clear statement that concerns even the least of all men.

Parley P Pratt: "Thus perfected, the whole family will possess the material universe—that is, the earth and all the other planets and worlds, as an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled, and that fadeth not away. They will also continue to organize people and redeem and perfect other systems which are now in the womb of chaos, and thus go on increasing their several dominions, till the weakest child of God which now exists upon earth will possess more dominions, more property, more subjects and more power and glory than is possessed (presently) by Jesus Christ or by his Father; while at the same time Jesus Christ and his Father will have their dominions, kingdoms and subjects increased in proportion." (Parley P. Pratt, quoted by B. H. Roberts in The Mormon Doctrine of Deity, page 257) (B. H. Roberts, Defense of the Faith and the Saints, 2 vol. 2: page 274)

Might we each argue just who is the weakest child of God?

Brigham young; Salvation, Now, the inquiry on our minds is, are all the world going to share in these blessings? Yes, all the world. Are there none going to be lost? Are there none going to suffer the wrath of the Almighty? I can say, in the first place, as I have said all my life, where I have been preaching, I never had the spirit to preach hell and damnation to the people. I have tried a great many times—I tried last Sabbath, and I have tried today to come to that point—the sufferings of the wicked. They will suffer, it seems; but I cannot get my heart upon anything else, only salvation for the people. All nations are going to share in these blessings; all are incorporated in the redemption of the Savior. He has tasted death for every man; they are all in his power, and he saves them all, as he says, except the sons of perdition; and the Father has put all the creations upon this earth in his power. The earth itself, and mankind upon it, the brute beasts, the fish of the sea, and the fowls of heaven, the insects, and every creeping thing, with all things pertaining to this earthly ball,—all are in the hands of the Savior, and he has redeemed them all. 6:296-297.

Brigham Young; How many Gods there are, and how many places there are in their kingdoms, is not for me to say; but I can say this, which is a source of much comfort, consolation, and gratification to me: Behold the goodness, the long-suffering, the kindness, and the strong parental feeling of our Father and God in preparing the way and providing the means to save the children of men—not alone the Latter-day Saints—not alone those who have the privilege of the first principles of the celestial law, but to save all. It is a universal salvation—a universal redemption. (J of D, 8:35)

It will be a pleasure to know that we have saved all the Father gave into our power. Jesus said that he lost none except the sons of perdition. He will lose none of his brethren, except sons of perdition. Let us save all the Father puts in our power. (J of D, 9:124)

All heaven is anxious that the people should be saved. The heavens weep over the people, because of their hard-heartedness, unbelief, and slowness to believe and act. (J of D, 4:196)

Our religion is adapted to the capacity of the whole human family. It does not send a portion of the people to howl in torment for ever and ever, but it reaches after the last son and daughter of Adam and Eve, and will pluck them from the prison, unlock the doors, and burst the bonds and bring forth every soul who will receive salvation. (J of D, 12:309)

Remembering that Salvation and eternal life are one and the same, Brother Brigham says: The salvation that Jesus has purchased will reach the whole human family and save, in a kingdom or in some place where they will enjoy to the extent of their capacity, those who reject not the Gospel and despise not the Savior (sons of perdition) 14:133. (Discourses of Brigham Young, pages 387-392)

The Kingdoms spoken of here are the three degrees of glory in the Celestial kingdom.

Let's see what the Lord and Savior of all mankind himself says. Speaking in the 76th Section about those in this world:

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world , and to bear the sins of the world , and to sanctify the world , and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.
44 Wherefore, he saves all except them (sons of perdition,) (Doctrine and Covenants 76:41-44)

And then speaking specifically of those in the Telestial Kingdom (or glory) our Lord states;

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.
82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.
83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.
84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.
85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.
86 These are they who receive not of his fullness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;
87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.
88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation .(Doctrine and Covenants 76:81-88)

In Doctrine and Covenants Section 138 the Lord says this concerning the wicked: 58 The dead who repent (as they repent) will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, (Temple)

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. (Doctrine and Covenants 138:58-59)

John A. Widtsoe: "President Brigham Young has suggested that the ultimate punishment of the sons of perdition may be that they, having their spiritual bodies disorganized , must start over again must begin anew the long journey of existence , repeating the steps that they took in the eternities before the Great Council was held. That would be punishment, indeed! "They will be decomposed, both soul and body (body and spirit make up the soul) , and return to their native element. I do not say that they will be annihilated; but they will be disorganized and will be as if they had never been; while "we" live and retain our identity and contend against those principles which tend to death or dissolution" (Journal of Discourses, 7:57). "The clay that marred in the potter's hands was thrown back into the unprepared portion to be prepared over again" (Ibid., 2:124) (John A. Widtsoe , Evidences and Reconciliation's, page 213)

Concerning the sons of perdition the Prophet Joseph Smith taught: "The Lord never authorized [anyone] to say that the devil, his angels [Sec. 76:44-48] or the sons of perdition, should ever be restored; for their state of destiny was not revealed to man, is not revealed, nor ever shall be revealed, save to those who are made partakers thereof: consequently those who teach this doctrine, have not received it of the Spirit of the Lord. Truly Brother Oliver [Cowdery] declared it to be the doctrine of devils. We therefore command that this doctrine be taught no more in Zion." (Joseph Smith, HC 1:366.)

We need not concern ourselves about the sons of perdition; they are the responsibility of our kind, wise Father in Heaven. They are his wayward children. We leave them to him and his justice and mercy.

The Apostle Paul adds this in his epistle to the Romans: Paul: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God , and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:17-18.)

In a statement to the youth of th church, Elder Bruce R. McConkie sums all of this up: "Salvation is exaltation . That is the sum and substance of the whole matter. Salvation is eternal life . It is an inheritance in the highest heaven of the celestial world, the only place the family unit continues . It consists of the continuation of the family unit forever in glorious exaltation in the kingdom of God. It consists of the fullness of glory of the Father and of a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. It is not a lower or lesser state than that reserved for those who become as God is. It is godhood." ("Q&A: Questions and Answers," New Era , April 1971)

The Lord told Abraham (and us!): 11 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee; and in thee (that is, in thy Priesthood) and in thy seed (that is, thy Priesthood), for I give unto thee a promise that this right shall continue in thee, and in thy seed after thee (that is to say, the literal seed, or the seed of the body) shall all the families of the earth be blessed, even with the blessings of the Gospel, which are the blessings of salvation, even of life eternal. (Abraham 2:11)

Life eternal is just another way of saying eternal life.

To the brother of Jared the Savior said: 13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters. (Ether 3:13-14)

The word "even" above means equal to, like unto or same as. "Life and that eternally" is yet another way of saying "eternal life."

Now, as we see above, those who repent in mortality or in the spirit world, having suffered for their sins, are then able to partake of the blessing of the House of the Lord (Temple). They become heirs of salvation as they repent and believe on His name.

Are there any who won't repent? N0! The Apostle Paul: 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. (Rom. 14: 11)

What part of the word "Every" are we as members of the true church, refusing to understand?

Let's discuss "every". It means all inclusive. Those who were born in the premortal world and came to earth to become mortals — the righteous, the indifferent and the wicked alike — are all children of our Father in Heaven. They are our spiritual brothers and sisters. We have a good idea of what happens to the righteous when they die. What really happens to those who were indifferent or wicked while in mortality? What must they endure before the resurrection?

Let's look at Jeremiah chapter 18 and the words of the prophets concerning that chapter. Using the parable as a "type" (example) we are the clay and the Lord is the "Potter".

Keep this in mind. Just because we don't understand what the Lord or his prophets say, doesn't make the Lord or his prophets wrong! We must simply learn to understand. The Lord in his wisdom has given us a great deal of help. He has supplied us with all kinds of scripture and vast amounts of prophetic testimony by way of explanation. We simply have no excuse for our lack of knowledge of the Lord's "Plan of Salvation!" He and his prophets have explained it ever so clearly.

First the part of our Lord's plan that concerns the very wicked, (not sons of perdition) and as mentioned above, how long the process might take! Including the fact that it will all happen within the parameters of agency!

Bob

[kathyn]

So, Bob, who qualifies for the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms? I got the feeling that they would never enter the celestial kingdom. I knew that all got resurrected in their own due time. Are not these kingdoms final assignments?

I can see that I need more light and knowledge. I am intrigued.

[gruden]

Anyhow, what is salvation other than being worthy of and partaking of light and glory? If the glory of God is intelligence then it seems pretty important to gain understanding, light and intelligence or we'd be out of place. Lack of knowledge is darkness. Darkness cannot dwell amidst light. We know that all have the ability to become as gods. It cannot be done without having a perfect knowledge and near as I can tell we have to work for that knowledge, little by little.

Lack of knowledge is lack of light. If one is cleansed of sin, there won't be darkness, but there may be lack of light. Those who have not applied themselves as they should have will be a lesser light and may be 'outshone' in the presence of greater lights.