SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Discussion of principles relating to God's Law, Agency, Freedom, Liberty, the US constitution, and the Proper Role of Government.
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h_p
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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby h_p » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:25 pm

MMbelieve wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:14 pm
What about the do not discriminate when hiring? Good, bad?
Companies that hire based on anything other than relevant qualification for the job will suffer the consequences in the market place. Other than that, people should be free to associate with whomever they please. And not associate with whomever they don't.

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alaris
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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby alaris » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:32 pm

h_p wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:25 pm
MMbelieve wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:14 pm
What about the do not discriminate when hiring? Good, bad?
Companies that hire based on anything other than relevant qualification for the job will suffer the consequences in the market place. Other than that, people should be free to associate with whomever they please. And not associate with whomever they don't.
Sure, go ahead and make a better point in three sentences than I could with paragraphs, definitions, links, and quotes. I sometimes wonder just how much PC nonsense has infected me from growing up in California along with general societal influence.

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby Vision » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:56 pm

alaris wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:45 pm
MMbelieve wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:42 pm
alaris wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:34 pm
MMbelieve wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:06 pm


I agree, we can all focus on what it turned into and feel threaten by it and fight to stay free but if we take a step back and see that it was just a cake then perhaps we can recognize that the fight was unnecessary and brought on by inappropriate behavior of a shop owner.

I agree that he shouldn't have been so judgemental and instead expressed his true Christian heart by loving his "enemies". It was a cake, not a sustaining of their specific marriage no more than him sustaining the marriage of any of the other sinners he baked cakes for.

But it's a big issue now and people are all worried about it. So now we have to deal with.

I don't want to lose religious freedom either and I hope that all the right decisions are made by those in charge...but really it is about a cake and law makers will see it as a Christian shop owner trying to use a "right" of religion and refuse or discriminate in a public setting and place of business. If we lose religious freedoms because of this then shame on the man who started it and turned it into way more than it ever needed to be.

Starting our own sparks then complaining of the fire is kinda wacky.
This fight existed for far longer than this world has existed - losing liberty would not be the result of a baker but of the forces of the adversary and their control over the hearts and minds of those who subject themselves unto him. This isn't due to a refusal to bake a cake but to a court ruling of a state-enforced dogma by those who list to obey the adversary.
state forced....the state mandates that we don't discriminate in the hiring of individuals to work. And it mandates that we don't discriminate in providing business services to customers either...or is that a bad thing?

Yes the fight of good vs evil has been ongoing, that I agree. And evil will take advantage of any kind of hiccup, even as small as a man refusing to bake a cake.
Quotas and state mandates discriminate against white people, so yes that is already bad and is a far cry from MLK's dream. State mandates forcing you to provide goods and services is a huge step towards compulsion, oppression, and even slavery: if I force you to bake a cake or else - what is that called? This is a poor mask for the devil's end game - removing agency layer by layer.

Edit: How is this not obviously bad to anyone who thinks this process through? Let's say the SC upholds the ruling and says, "You must bake cakes for gay people or else!" What then? When a gay couple comes into your place of business and starts escalating the issue to the next level of compliance***, then this ruling would be the precedent upon which future rulings are made!
Should we the people have a little fear in our hearts while doing business? I better comply with state dogma or else! THIS IS FACISM! Should I not be free to refuse service to anyone for any reason? If I walk into a place of business and they hurt my feelings by refusing my patronage, should I then go to nanny state and have them compelled to serve me??? OF COURSE NOT. This is pure nonsense.

***Let's be clear - the gay agenda will NEVER ever be satisfied by its very nature as it is contrary to the nature of happiness and will never stop until they are at your door demanding you send your two guests outside for a forcible act of compliance. Didn't #LOVEWON? Nope. Now people must be forced into acceptance. Forced compliance is followed by forced acceptance. Little by little - bit by bit. Sodom and Gomorrah is not a fairy tale.This is not just happening here but all over the world. This is a sign of the times ladies and gentlemen.
Alaris, its a freaking cake. I can't discriminate in my business based upon familial status and I've worked with same sex couples and all that has done for me is make really nice friends. I home taught 2 gay men living together and we have a great relationship. I was sad to see them move. If Christians would stop being so damn uptight about everything 90% of our troubles would go away on there own.

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alaris
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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby alaris » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:06 pm

Vision wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:56 pm
alaris wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:45 pm
MMbelieve wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:42 pm
alaris wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:34 pm


This fight existed for far longer than this world has existed - losing liberty would not be the result of a baker but of the forces of the adversary and their control over the hearts and minds of those who subject themselves unto him. This isn't due to a refusal to bake a cake but to a court ruling of a state-enforced dogma by those who list to obey the adversary.
state forced....the state mandates that we don't discriminate in the hiring of individuals to work. And it mandates that we don't discriminate in providing business services to customers either...or is that a bad thing?

Yes the fight of good vs evil has been ongoing, that I agree. And evil will take advantage of any kind of hiccup, even as small as a man refusing to bake a cake.
Quotas and state mandates discriminate against white people, so yes that is already bad and is a far cry from MLK's dream. State mandates forcing you to provide goods and services is a huge step towards compulsion, oppression, and even slavery: if I force you to bake a cake or else - what is that called? This is a poor mask for the devil's end game - removing agency layer by layer.

Edit: How is this not obviously bad to anyone who thinks this process through? Let's say the SC upholds the ruling and says, "You must bake cakes for gay people or else!" What then? When a gay couple comes into your place of business and starts escalating the issue to the next level of compliance***, then this ruling would be the precedent upon which future rulings are made!
Should we the people have a little fear in our hearts while doing business? I better comply with state dogma or else! THIS IS FACISM! Should I not be free to refuse service to anyone for any reason? If I walk into a place of business and they hurt my feelings by refusing my patronage, should I then go to nanny state and have them compelled to serve me??? OF COURSE NOT. This is pure nonsense.

***Let's be clear - the gay agenda will NEVER ever be satisfied by its very nature as it is contrary to the nature of happiness and will never stop until they are at your door demanding you send your two guests outside for a forcible act of compliance. Didn't #LOVEWON? Nope. Now people must be forced into acceptance. Forced compliance is followed by forced acceptance. Little by little - bit by bit. Sodom and Gomorrah is not a fairy tale.This is not just happening here but all over the world. This is a sign of the times ladies and gentlemen.
Alaris, its a freaking cake. I can't discriminate in my business based upon familial status and I've worked with same sex couples and all that has done for me is make really nice friends. I home taught 2 gay men living together and we have a great relationship. I was sad to see them move. If Christians would stop being so damn uptight about everything 90% of our troubles would go away on there own.
Vision, it's freaking facism to have a state force you to comply with their dogma. This has nothing to do with loving the sinner or uptightedness. I have a gay boss - best boss I have ever had. Yay us!

State induced penalties for not selling cakes should scare you. Facism. Facism bad.

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby Vision » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:05 pm

alaris wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:06 pm
Vision wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:56 pm
alaris wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:45 pm
MMbelieve wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:42 pm


state forced....the state mandates that we don't discriminate in the hiring of individuals to work. And it mandates that we don't discriminate in providing business services to customers either...or is that a bad thing?

Yes the fight of good vs evil has been ongoing, that I agree. And evil will take advantage of any kind of hiccup, even as small as a man refusing to bake a cake.
Quotas and state mandates discriminate against white people, so yes that is already bad and is a far cry from MLK's dream. State mandates forcing you to provide goods and services is a huge step towards compulsion, oppression, and even slavery: if I force you to bake a cake or else - what is that called? This is a poor mask for the devil's end game - removing agency layer by layer.

Edit: How is this not obviously bad to anyone who thinks this process through? Let's say the SC upholds the ruling and says, "You must bake cakes for gay people or else!" What then? When a gay couple comes into your place of business and starts escalating the issue to the next level of compliance***, then this ruling would be the precedent upon which future rulings are made!
Should we the people have a little fear in our hearts while doing business? I better comply with state dogma or else! THIS IS FACISM! Should I not be free to refuse service to anyone for any reason? If I walk into a place of business and they hurt my feelings by refusing my patronage, should I then go to nanny state and have them compelled to serve me??? OF COURSE NOT. This is pure nonsense.

***Let's be clear - the gay agenda will NEVER ever be satisfied by its very nature as it is contrary to the nature of happiness and will never stop until they are at your door demanding you send your two guests outside for a forcible act of compliance. Didn't #LOVEWON? Nope. Now people must be forced into acceptance. Forced compliance is followed by forced acceptance. Little by little - bit by bit. Sodom and Gomorrah is not a fairy tale.This is not just happening here but all over the world. This is a sign of the times ladies and gentlemen.
Alaris, its a freaking cake. I can't discriminate in my business based upon familial status and I've worked with same sex couples and all that has done for me is make really nice friends. I home taught 2 gay men living together and we have a great relationship. I was sad to see them move. If Christians would stop being so damn uptight about everything 90% of our troubles would go away on there own.
Vision, it's freaking facism to have a state force you to comply with their dogma. This has nothing to do with loving the sinner or uptightedness. I have a gay boss - best boss I have ever had. Yay us!

State induced penalties for not selling cakes should scare you. Facism. Facism bad.

The Saints fled the United States so they could have freedom of religion.Once they accepted Statehood they accepted bondage of the United States. Get over it we haven't been free for along time.

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby h_p » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:45 pm

Vision wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:56 pm
Alaris, its a freaking cake. I can't discriminate in my business based upon familial status and I've worked with same sex couples and all that has done for me is make really nice friends. I home taught 2 gay men living together and we have a great relationship. I was sad to see them move. If Christians would stop being so damn uptight about everything 90% of our troubles would go away on there own.
That's all fine and good, but all you just described is your willingness to associate with people you want to be with. We all agree. Nobody is debating that. What this court case is about is the opposite: whether someone should be *forced,* under threat of violence, to associate with someone they don't want to be around.

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alaris
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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby alaris » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:20 pm

Vision wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:05 pm
alaris wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:06 pm
Vision wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:56 pm
alaris wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:45 pm


Quotas and state mandates discriminate against white people, so yes that is already bad and is a far cry from MLK's dream. State mandates forcing you to provide goods and services is a huge step towards compulsion, oppression, and even slavery: if I force you to bake a cake or else - what is that called? This is a poor mask for the devil's end game - removing agency layer by layer.

Edit: How is this not obviously bad to anyone who thinks this process through? Let's say the SC upholds the ruling and says, "You must bake cakes for gay people or else!" What then? When a gay couple comes into your place of business and starts escalating the issue to the next level of compliance***, then this ruling would be the precedent upon which future rulings are made!
Should we the people have a little fear in our hearts while doing business? I better comply with state dogma or else! THIS IS FACISM! Should I not be free to refuse service to anyone for any reason? If I walk into a place of business and they hurt my feelings by refusing my patronage, should I then go to nanny state and have them compelled to serve me??? OF COURSE NOT. This is pure nonsense.

***Let's be clear - the gay agenda will NEVER ever be satisfied by its very nature as it is contrary to the nature of happiness and will never stop until they are at your door demanding you send your two guests outside for a forcible act of compliance. Didn't #LOVEWON? Nope. Now people must be forced into acceptance. Forced compliance is followed by forced acceptance. Little by little - bit by bit. Sodom and Gomorrah is not a fairy tale.This is not just happening here but all over the world. This is a sign of the times ladies and gentlemen.
Alaris, its a freaking cake. I can't discriminate in my business based upon familial status and I've worked with same sex couples and all that has done for me is make really nice friends. I home taught 2 gay men living together and we have a great relationship. I was sad to see them move. If Christians would stop being so damn uptight about everything 90% of our troubles would go away on there own.
Vision, it's freaking facism to have a state force you to comply with their dogma. This has nothing to do with loving the sinner or uptightedness. I have a gay boss - best boss I have ever had. Yay us!

State induced penalties for not selling cakes should scare you. Facism. Facism bad.

The Saints fled the United States so they could have freedom of religion.Once they accepted Statehood they accepted bondage of the United States. Get over it we haven't been free for along time.
Just like the other Germans got over fascism? No thanks. I'll fight it here and now.

If the shoe were on the other foot would the left be in favor of the government forcing Gays to make Christian wedding cakes? They'd be outraged. Fascism. The same powers are behind it now as were behind it then. This is the same war that has always existed. The fact that the violation of the first commandment is the pretext upon which this war is being fought now is not a coincidence.

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby Vision » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:32 am

h_p wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:45 pm
Vision wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:56 pm
Alaris, its a freaking cake. I can't discriminate in my business based upon familial status and I've worked with same sex couples and all that has done for me is make really nice friends. I home taught 2 gay men living together and we have a great relationship. I was sad to see them move. If Christians would stop being so damn uptight about everything 90% of our troubles would go away on there own.
That's all fine and good, but all you just described is your willingness to associate with people you want to be with. We all agree. Nobody is debating that. What this court case is about is the opposite: whether someone should be *forced,* under threat of violence, to associate with someone they don't want to be around.
h_p this court case would not even exist if Phillips had not forced his religious views into his business. It was his decision that started the dispute. When you acknowledge these facts how can you not see that Phillips brought this trouble on himself. Had he followed the Saviors words to turn the other cheek none of this would be happening. Yes it is Phillips business and he has the right to conduct business how he see's fit but he his not free of the consequences of his choices. The escalation of this case to where it stands today is nothing but consequences from the original decision.

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby David13 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:45 am

Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:32 am
h_p wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:45 pm
Vision wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:56 pm
Alaris, its a freaking cake. I can't discriminate in my business based upon familial status and I've worked with same sex couples and all that has done for me is make really nice friends. I home taught 2 gay men living together and we have a great relationship. I was sad to see them move. If Christians would stop being so damn uptight about everything 90% of our troubles would go away on there own.
That's all fine and good, but all you just described is your willingness to associate with people you want to be with. We all agree. Nobody is debating that. What this court case is about is the opposite: whether someone should be *forced,* under threat of violence, to associate with someone they don't want to be around.
h_p this court case would not even exist if Phillips had not forced his religious views into his business. It was his decision that started the dispute. When you acknowledge these facts how can you not see that Phillips brought this trouble on himself. Had he followed the Saviors words to turn the other cheek none of this would be happening. Yes it is Phillips business and he has the right to conduct business how he see's fit but he his not free of the consequences of his choices. The escalation of this case to where it stands today is nothing but consequences from the original decision.

No. He is an artist. And they have said he must use his art as they say, not as he says. It would be as if Picasso was ordered to paint baseball and football paintings, when he didn't want to.
dc

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby Vision » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:58 am

David13 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:45 am
Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:32 am
h_p wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:45 pm
Vision wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:56 pm
Alaris, its a freaking cake. I can't discriminate in my business based upon familial status and I've worked with same sex couples and all that has done for me is make really nice friends. I home taught 2 gay men living together and we have a great relationship. I was sad to see them move. If Christians would stop being so damn uptight about everything 90% of our troubles would go away on there own.
That's all fine and good, but all you just described is your willingness to associate with people you want to be with. We all agree. Nobody is debating that. What this court case is about is the opposite: whether someone should be *forced,* under threat of violence, to associate with someone they don't want to be around.
h_p this court case would not even exist if Phillips had not forced his religious views into his business. It was his decision that started the dispute. When you acknowledge these facts how can you not see that Phillips brought this trouble on himself. Had he followed the Saviors words to turn the other cheek none of this would be happening. Yes it is Phillips business and he has the right to conduct business how he see's fit but he his not free of the consequences of his choices. The escalation of this case to where it stands today is nothing but consequences from the original decision.

No. He is an artist. And they have said he must use his art as they say, not as he says. It would be as if Picasso was ordered to paint baseball and football paintings, when he didn't want to.
dc
If Picasso was commissioned to paint baseballs he would paint baseballs and they would be worth millions today.

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby Vision » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:00 am

alaris wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:20 pm
Vision wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:05 pm
alaris wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:06 pm
Vision wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:56 pm


Alaris, its a freaking cake. I can't discriminate in my business based upon familial status and I've worked with same sex couples and all that has done for me is make really nice friends. I home taught 2 gay men living together and we have a great relationship. I was sad to see them move. If Christians would stop being so damn uptight about everything 90% of our troubles would go away on there own.
Vision, it's freaking facism to have a state force you to comply with their dogma. This has nothing to do with loving the sinner or uptightedness. I have a gay boss - best boss I have ever had. Yay us!

State induced penalties for not selling cakes should scare you. Facism. Facism bad.

The Saints fled the United States so they could have freedom of religion.Once they accepted Statehood they accepted bondage of the United States. Get over it we haven't been free for along time.
Just like the other Germans got over fascism? No thanks. I'll fight it here and now.

If the shoe were on the other foot would the left be in favor of the government forcing Gays to make Christian wedding cakes? They'd be outraged. Fascism. The same powers are behind it now as were behind it then. This is the same war that has always existed. The fact that the violation of the first commandment is the pretext upon which this war is being fought now is not a coincidence.
Show me one aspect of Society that is not governed by local,state or federal control or all three? A bakery has to have an annual business license, is subject to random inspections from the health department, must pay sales taxes on goods sold, pay workers compensation taxes, get a building permit to build the bakery, pay taxes on any machinery purchased, pay fee's to the landlord so that he can pay property taxes, license vehicles annually used in the business, pay taxes on utilities used, maintain insurance or face closure. All under the threat of violence if you do not comply. What freedoms do we have again, please tell me?

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby h_p » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:06 am

Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:32 am
h_p this court case would not even exist if Phillips had not forced his religious views into his business. It was his decision that started the dispute. When you acknowledge these facts how can you not see that Phillips brought this trouble on himself. Had he followed the Saviors words to turn the other cheek none of this would be happening. Yes it is Phillips business and he has the right to conduct business how he see's fit but he his not free of the consequences of his choices. The escalation of this case to where it stands today is nothing but consequences from the original decision.
Consequences for his actions would be people taking their business elsewhere because they don't like the guy. What you're talking about is State coercion under implied threat of violence. That's what government enforcement of law is.

No-one should be forced to divorce his religious views from his daily actions, including the way he conducts his business. Anyone disagreeing with his choices are still free to shop somewhere else. But they don't have the right to force him to do something that he believes would violate his religious beliefs.

Should a gay-owned bakery be forced to make a cake for a Westboro Baptist church wedding that says "God hates fags"? Or how about all the fashion designers that were refusing to make dresses for Melania Trump earlier this year? Should they be sued or forced out of business? Nobody seemed to be getting all up in their faces about that.

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby David13 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:08 am

Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:58 am
David13 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:45 am
Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:32 am
h_p wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:45 pm


That's all fine and good, but all you just described is your willingness to associate with people you want to be with. We all agree. Nobody is debating that. What this court case is about is the opposite: whether someone should be *forced,* under threat of violence, to associate with someone they don't want to be around.
h_p this court case would not even exist if Phillips had not forced his religious views into his business. It was his decision that started the dispute. When you acknowledge these facts how can you not see that Phillips brought this trouble on himself. Had he followed the Saviors words to turn the other cheek none of this would be happening. Yes it is Phillips business and he has the right to conduct business how he see's fit but he his not free of the consequences of his choices. The escalation of this case to where it stands today is nothing but consequences from the original decision.

No. He is an artist. And they have said he must use his art as they say, not as he says. It would be as if Picasso was ordered to paint baseball and football paintings, when he didn't want to.
dc
If Picasso was commissioned to paint baseballs he would paint baseballs and they would be worth millions today.

You miss the point entirely.
If he didn't want to paint baseballs, he should not be ordered by a court to paint baseballs. And I don't think he would.
dc

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby h_p » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:49 am

Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:00 am
Show me one aspect of Society that is not governed by local,state or federal control or all three? A bakery has to have an annual business license, is subject to random inspections from the health department, must pay sales taxes on goods sold, pay workers compensation taxes, get a building permit to build the bakery, pay taxes on any machinery purchased, pay fee's to the landlord so that he can pay property taxes, license vehicles annually used in the business, pay taxes on utilities used, maintain insurance or face closure. All under the threat of violence if you do not comply.
I agree, we have way more government intrusion in our lives than we should have. I'm not seeing how that would convince me we should have more.
Vision wrote: What freedoms do we have again, please tell me?
I've been asking that same question, myself. :-( But religious freedom is one of the last dying embers of this once great nation that we have left. Let's not snuff that one out, too.

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby captainfearnot » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:29 am

David13 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:08 am
You miss the point entirely.
If he didn't want to paint baseballs, he should not be ordered by a court to paint baseballs. And I don't think he would.
The situation is more like if Picasso painted baseballs all the time, for people who displayed his baseball paintings in their homes and private galleries after buying them. And then someone from Monsanto walked in and said, hey we want you to do one of your famous baseball paintings for us, so we can display it in our office lobby downtown. And Picasso refused because everything about Monsanto sickens him, and he thinks that if he paints a baseball for the company that would be like voicing support for their horrible business practices.

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby Vision » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:10 am

h_p wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:49 am
Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:00 am
Show me one aspect of Society that is not governed by local,state or federal control or all three? A bakery has to have an annual business license, is subject to random inspections from the health department, must pay sales taxes on goods sold, pay workers compensation taxes, get a building permit to build the bakery, pay taxes on any machinery purchased, pay fee's to the landlord so that he can pay property taxes, license vehicles annually used in the business, pay taxes on utilities used, maintain insurance or face closure. All under the threat of violence if you do not comply.
I agree, we have way more government intrusion in our lives than we should have. I'm not seeing how that would convince me we should have more.
Vision wrote: What freedoms do we have again, please tell me?
I've been asking that same question, myself. :-( But religious freedom is one of the last dying embers of this once great nation that we have left. Let's not snuff that one out, too.
h_P. Do we really have religious freedom with the Edmunds Tucker act forcing acceptance of statehood, with the manifesto's after accepting statehood, and the Johnson Amendment, 5013c tax code requirements, marriage licensing, state control of who can legally marry, etc.?

That is my point, the war was lost long ago and this cake fight is not really that big of a deal when you truly analyze the awful state we are in.

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby Vision » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:24 am

h_p wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:06 am
Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:32 am
h_p this court case would not even exist if Phillips had not forced his religious views into his business. It was his decision that started the dispute. When you acknowledge these facts how can you not see that Phillips brought this trouble on himself. Had he followed the Saviors words to turn the other cheek none of this would be happening. Yes it is Phillips business and he has the right to conduct business how he see's fit but he his not free of the consequences of his choices. The escalation of this case to where it stands today is nothing but consequences from the original decision.

No-one should be forced to divorce his religious views from his daily actions, including the way he conducts his business.
You cannot discriminate in housing laws, health care services, professional service industries, hiring employees, etc. Why is a retail business exempt from the same laws that exist already?

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby alaris » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:04 pm

Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:24 am
h_p wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:06 am
Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:32 am
h_p this court case would not even exist if Phillips had not forced his religious views into his business. It was his decision that started the dispute. When you acknowledge these facts how can you not see that Phillips brought this trouble on himself. Had he followed the Saviors words to turn the other cheek none of this would be happening. Yes it is Phillips business and he has the right to conduct business how he see's fit but he his not free of the consequences of his choices. The escalation of this case to where it stands today is nothing but consequences from the original decision.

No-one should be forced to divorce his religious views from his daily actions, including the way he conducts his business.
You cannot discriminate in housing laws, health care services, professional service industries, hiring employees, etc. Why is a retail business exempt from the same laws that exist already?
We may never agree on whether the government should be our nanny to make sure we don't discriminate, but H_P already beautifully, concisely gave you the answer here. The market takes care of itself. The government is a bloated, corrupt, inefficient monstrosity that certainly is not the answer to our discrimination "problems."

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the answer. This is the fundamental difference between the right and left worldviews imho. The left is so cynical they think everyone is evil and corrupt (except themselves of course, and google, and apple, and the government) and we are all racists in our subconscious minds, therefore we cannot trust ourselves. So let's have the marvelous, benevolent government steer us all (control us all) to harmony. Whose plan does that sound like? Jehovah's or Lucifer's?

The right believes we have individual rights, responsibilities, and accountability. We the people is who the government answers to, not the other way around. There's reason why democrats are some of the least charitable people on earth. They are charitable with other people's money. Conservatives believe charity comes from the individual, not the government. Accountability comes from the individual, not the government. The government is accountable to us to protect our rights not the other way around where the government grants us rights. These are fundamental worldview differences.

Do you have a testimony of the Book of Mormon? If so, then you should believe Moroni and Mormon who tell us secret combination will exist in our day. They do. Modern prophets, such as Ezra Taft Benson, have warned about them existing now in our government. It absolutely exists - corruption is everywhere. Judicial overreach is a symptom of this underlying problem, and this baker case is just one of the symptoms of gadiantonism who are pushing a control via the gay agenda. So, do you, Vision, believe our government is in a condition where it can be relied upon to make and enforce laws that protect our liberties rather than infringe upon them?

Here's a great video demonstrating now corruption that gets zero coverage by a complicit, corrupt mainstream media:


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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby h_p » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:42 pm

Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:24 am
You cannot discriminate in housing laws, health care services, professional service industries, hiring employees, etc. Why is a retail business exempt from the same laws that exist already?
Hey, it's not like I agree with those laws, either. :-)

When I was a missionary, my companion and I were once tasked with finding a new apartment. We went to complex after complex, looking for a place. Most landlords we spoke to, seeing us in our white shirts and name tags, turned us down to our face, saying they didn't want to rent to us. They didn't even lie. I suppose we could have sued them for discrimination. It was frustrating experiencing all that bigotry first hand, but I never once felt they didn't have a right to turn us away. And I didn't feel like I had a right to force them to accept us.

And besides, why would I want to give money to someone who hated me?

And besides, why does this kind of law always seem to be applied so lopsidedly? Maybe we should start going to all the Jewish and Muslim delis and tell them to make us a bacon sandwich, or we'll have them hauled off to the pokey.

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby Vision » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:44 pm

Alaris

The question isn't wether I have a testimony of the BOM. The question is do you really think we have any liberties left? That is the difference between you and I. You have the belief that we have some freedoms left to fight for. I recognize that we have no liberty nor freedoms left. We are in complete bondage to the government.

You're still trapped in the left/right paradigm. The right does not believe anything close to individual rights, responsibilities, and accountability. Name one social program that has ever been repealed in it's entirety? For 7 years all we heard from right wing politicians is how they were going to repeal obamacare. Once they got the majority what happened to those campaign promises, fake attempts to pass a repeal. That's how the system works, one party advances their agenda, then they let the other guys have a turn. It's the classic hegelian dialectic at work. Both parties put on the charade of representing the people but neither really represent the people. The speak out of both sides of their mouths. Sean Hannity is not your friend, he is a tool of the state to keep you trapped in the paradigm. Corruption has permeated ever level of society, it comes from many different people but the same source. We hear of bribery in other countries, but we call ours campaign contributions which makes us feel better because ours is legal. We hear of corrupt cops that steal peoples money in other countries, but our civil asset forfeiture is legal.

Awakening is a process. I too once believed in the republican party, and the right wing causes. After some honest analysis and serious applications of the BOM to the present state we are I came to the conclusion that we are in complete bondage. It was actually liberating to get to this point. I am now free from the highs and lows of politics. I now have hope in redemption from my Savior, not men. It's a very good place to be in. One day you will get there. It's a journey, enjoy it while your on it. There is hope, lots of it.

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby Vision » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:50 pm

h_p wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:42 pm
Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:24 am
You cannot discriminate in housing laws, health care services, professional service industries, hiring employees, etc. Why is a retail business exempt from the same laws that exist already?
And besides, why does this kind of law always seem to be applied so lopsidedly? Maybe we should start going to all the Jewish and Muslim delis and tell them to make us a bacon sandwich, or we'll have them hauled off to the pokey.
Your a reasonable dude, I hope your a dude, if not dudette. Christianity had it's day in the sun too. The tide is turning and it's hard to witness.

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby Thinker » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:57 pm

h_p wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:25 pm
...people should be free to associate with whomever they please. And not associate with whomever they don't.
Exactly.
Why would anyone want to have government FORCE us to either buy from or sell to anyone, when there are plenty other valid and equally good alternatives?

“Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 -- the federal law which prohibits discrimination by private businesses which are places of public accommodation -- only prevents businesses from refusing service based on race, color, religion, or national origin.”

So essentially- only race and RELIGION are protected. This is why many businesses have signs like, “We reserve the right to refuse service” or “No shirt, no service.” And this is why there are so many businesses to choose from because government hasn’t yet been trying to micromanage them.

To try to force someone to go against their religious views is against the supreme law of the land. Unfortunately, homosexual lobbyists have bullied their way to change the constitution to create homosexual “marriage” as part of it, when marriage is NOT and never was a constitutional right, as several justices pointed out. So essentially it comes down to the original constitution’s supreme law of religious freedom... and the homosexual bullying that decreed homosexuality as the new counterfeit part obtained by cheating. What’s stronger in a court of law: the US constitution or homosexual bullies?

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby JK4Woods » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:23 pm


If someone asked for a cake endorsing premarital sex, they possibly would have been against that as well. The issue isn't about a random application of conscience but whether the state can force individuals to provide goods and services that conflict with religious views. This issue is a slippery slope that ends in the state forcing the LDS church to perform gay marriages in temples. The adversary is real and the LDS church is absolutely at the center of his cross-hairs.

EmmaLee was right to post this and the David O McKay quote she shared is spot on.
Just like if I had a book store. I get to sell only the books I want to. Then a lawsuit is filed saying I don’t sell LGBT books or porn. I fight the lawsuit, but the state prevails and now I am forced to sell things I religiously don’t want to. Whose rights have been trampled now..??

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby captainfearnot » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:30 pm

Thinker wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:57 pm
“Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 -- the federal law which prohibits discrimination by private businesses which are places of public accommodation -- only prevents businesses from refusing service based on race, color, religion, or national origin.”

So essentially- only race and RELIGION are protected. This is why many businesses have signs like, “We reserve the right to refuse service” or “No shirt, no service.” And this is why there are so many businesses to choose from because government hasn’t yet been trying to micromanage them.

To try to force someone to go against their religious views is against the supreme law of the land. Unfortunately, homosexual lobbyists have bullied their way to change the constitution to create homosexual “marriage” as part of it, when marriage is NOT and never was a constitutional right, as several justices pointed out. So essentially it comes down to the original constitution’s supreme law of religious freedom... and the homosexual bullying that decreed homosexuality as the new counterfeit part obtained by cheating. What’s stronger in a court of law: the US constitution or homosexual bullies?
At issue is the Colorado Antidiscrimination Act, which like most other state civil rights laws, is more expansive than the federal Civil Rights Act:
The Colorado Antidiscrimination Act (“CAA”) makes it unlawful for persons “to refuse, withhold from, or deny to an individual or a group, because of . . . race, creed, color, sex, sexual orientation, . . . national origin, . . . the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of a place of public accommodation.” CAA defines a “place of public accommodation” as “any place of business engaged in any sales to the public and any place offering services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations to the public.
So far courts have held that Mr. Phillips did not abide by this law when he refused to design a wedding cake for the gay couple, since that is a service his business offers to the public. But the US Supreme Court could disagree. I believe they could also find the CAA to be unconstitutional.

I think the thread has turned toward discussion about whether we should even have anti-discrimination laws at all, which of course is perfectly fitting for this board. I think a lot of Llbertarians would like to see the Civil Rights Act done away with, and allow the free market to sort it out. But as the laws currently stand I don't think Mr. Phillips has much of a case.

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby captainfearnot » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:42 pm

JK4Woods wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:23 pm
Just like if I had a book store. I get to sell only the books I want to. Then a lawsuit is filed saying I don’t sell LGBT books or porn. I fight the lawsuit, but the state prevails and now I am forced to sell things I religiously don’t want to. Whose rights have been trampled now..??
That would only be a similar situation if you sold certain books to certain people but refused to sell the same books to other people, because you believed that, based on how those people intended to put those books to use after the sale, it would constitute coerced speech on your part.

For example, say your bookstore sold books about paramilitary training, extra-governmental militias, and guerrilla tactics. And most of your clientele are ranchers and preppers and other Cliven Bundy types and you're perfectly fine with that because you share their views.

But one day someone from Antifa or Black Lives Matter or some other group that you don't agree with wants to buy the same books, and you refuse to sell to them because you are so opposed to what they're about, and you interpret the act of selling them books as somehow supporting their cause. You'll sell them books, of course, just not those books.

That would be more like what Mr. Phillips was doing with his cake shop.

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby Thinker » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:47 pm

captainfearnot wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:30 pm
Thinker wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:57 pm
“Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 -- the federal law which prohibits discrimination by private businesses which are places of public accommodation -- only prevents businesses from refusing service based on race, color, religion, or national origin.”

So essentially- only race and RELIGION are protected. This is why many businesses have signs like, “We reserve the right to refuse service” or “No shirt, no service.” And this is why there are so many businesses to choose from because government hasn’t yet been trying to micromanage them.

To try to force someone to go against their religious views is against the supreme law of the land. Unfortunately, homosexual lobbyists have bullied their way to change the constitution to create homosexual “marriage” as part of it, when marriage is NOT and never was a constitutional right, as several justices pointed out. So essentially it comes down to the original constitution’s supreme law of religious freedom... and the homosexual bullying that decreed homosexuality as the new counterfeit part obtained by cheating. What’s stronger in a court of law: the US constitution or homosexual bullies?
...But the US Supreme Court could disagree. I believe they could also find the CAA to be unconstitutional.

But as the laws currently stand I don't think Mr. Phillips has much of a case.
The US Constitution supercedes all federal and state laws, and all state constitutions, so if we were to play by the rules, Mr. Phillips would win. But since, homosexual fanatics do NOT play by the rules, who knows? The point, captainfearnot, is the 1st amendment rights - which do not just affect Mr. Phillips but all of us. So when someone stomps on one's right to free speech or right to religious belief - and it goes to court like this, it potentially is trying to stomp on all of our rights. And I'd argue that even in smaller cases - where free speech is limited - is a disservice to all because then the truth is less likely to be found when logical debate is silenced.

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby Thinker » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:55 pm

JK4Woods wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:23 pm

If someone asked for a cake endorsing premarital sex, they possibly would have been against that as well. The issue isn't about a random application of conscience but whether the state can force individuals to provide goods and services that conflict with religious views. This issue is a slippery slope that ends in the state forcing the LDS church to perform gay marriages in temples. The adversary is real and the LDS church is absolutely at the center of his cross-hairs.
Just like if I had a book store. I get to sell only the books I want to. Then a lawsuit is filed saying I don’t sell LGBT books or porn. I fight the lawsuit, but the state prevails and now I am forced to sell things I religiously don’t want to. Whose rights have been trampled now..??
Obviously, in that case, your right to religious freedom was denied - a right that was established with the founding of this country. The US Constitution - including the 1st amendment right to freedom of religion - supersedes all other federal or state laws. Yet, some businesses like eHarmony and some adoption agencies were forced to offer services that went against their principles - all to cater to homosexual bullies.

If this was really about not being discriminatory - then people would be all upset about people who prefer to not wear shirts being denied service. But it's not about that because of all of the daily refusal of services, it is the homosexual bullies who feel entitled to special treatment even when it means denying others' rights. Homosexual fanatics are so illogical - so full of hypocritical double standards - the only reason why they have been able to bully their way is because of systematic mind-control they began at least back in the 1980's with books like, "The Overhauling of Straight America." This mind-control is what makes someone who is otherwise logical, refuse to engage in discussion and calls anyone who disagrees with homosexuality, "homophobe," "hater" or "bigot."

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby captainfearnot » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:05 pm

Thinker wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:47 pm
The US Constitution supersedes all federal and state laws, and all state constitutions
Yes, but how does that apply here?

Are you saying the CAA contradicts the Civil Rights Act or the 1st Amendment?

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby captainfearnot » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:28 pm

Thinker wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:55 pm
If this was really about not being discriminatory - then people would be all upset about people who prefer to not wear shirts being denied service.
More like if a store required some customers to wear shirts and shoes in order to receive service but not others. Especially if the determining factor was something like the race, religion, nationality (or—in Colorado at least—the sexual orientation) of the customer.

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Re: SC Decision Will Affect Us All

Postby alaris » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:30 pm

Vision wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:44 pm
Alaris

The question isn't wether I have a testimony of the BOM. The question is do you really think we have any liberties left? That is the difference between you and I. You have the belief that we have some freedoms left to fight for. I recognize that we have no liberty nor freedoms left. We are in complete bondage to the government.

You're still trapped in the left/right paradigm. The right does not believe anything close to individual rights, responsibilities, and accountability. Name one social program that has ever been repealed in it's entirety? For 7 years all we heard from right wing politicians is how they were going to repeal obamacare. Once they got the majority what happened to those campaign promises, fake attempts to pass a repeal. That's how the system works, one party advances their agenda, then they let the other guys have a turn. It's the classic hegelian dialectic at work. Both parties put on the charade of representing the people but neither really represent the people. The speak out of both sides of their mouths. Sean Hannity is not your friend, he is a tool of the state to keep you trapped in the paradigm. Corruption has permeated ever level of society, it comes from many different people but the same source. We hear of bribery in other countries, but we call ours campaign contributions which makes us feel better because ours is legal. We hear of corrupt cops that steal peoples money in other countries, but our civil asset forfeiture is legal.

Awakening is a process. I too once believed in the republican party, and the right wing causes. After some honest analysis and serious applications of the BOM to the present state we are I came to the conclusion that we are in complete bondage. It was actually liberating to get to this point. I am now free from the highs and lows of politics. I now have hope in redemption from my Savior, not men. It's a very good place to be in. One day you will get there. It's a journey, enjoy it while your on it. There is hope, lots of it.
Nice try looping me in to the left / right paradigm. If I were in that paradigm would I be calling this court case out as a symptom of gadiantonism? Gadiantons have infected both the left and the "right." I put "right" in quotes because you are spot on about the phony republicans who make empty promises. Why? Because republicans by and large are corrupt and compromised--especially in the "good 'ol boys" senate.

There are actual instances of the saints being in complete bondage in the Book of Mormon. You should read those stores and compare and contrast. Here's an article that refers to these stories and explores why they were included for our day:

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormo ... ce-bondage

Yet, your comments seem to be defending this court decision. "It's already over" is hardly a reason to antagonize people who see this court decision as judicial overreach. Because that's what it is. Are there other cases of judicial overreach? Of course, but the fight is not over. Can you not go to the temple whenever you want (except on Sundays and Mondays ;) ?) Can you not pray out loud on a public corner if you want? (See referenced Book of Mormon stories above) Can you not refuse to make a sign promoting gay marriage ... well maybe you can't refuse. We'll see what happens.


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