LDS Freedom Forum

David13 wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 12:08 pm

Meili wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 11:07 am Having lived in this world for a few decades I've come to the conclusion that pretty much there's always force involved in anything that goes on. The differences of opinion come from what exactly is okay to force on other people.

Here's what I wonder about all this. The rents in Utah have increased by about 50% in the past two years, from what I can tell. What was once $600 is now $900. The wages haven't increased at that rate, however. Will these new developments create more competition in rental rates? Will they enable more people to obtain housing?

Well, it seems to me what they will do is jam more people into less space.
Which is something well known to cause all kinds of problems. And just generally lower the quality of life. *

Reminds me of a professor I had at the University of Michigan. He used to look out the window and reminisce about the old days, some of which he had lived.

He said when he found out that there were more than 100,000 people in Washtenaw County, he moved to the next county.

That's sort of what I have done. And I'm quite happy about it, too.
dc


* But it does maximize profit for the developer and the landlord.

You are correct.

Isaiah5:8 ¶ Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!

(Footnote 8c "IE be left to dwell alone. The wealthy landowners absorb the small farms of the poor."

This urbanization is not spontaneous or natural. I does affect quality of life. It is part of the prophesies of the last days.

The USA is the third most populous country in the world. 100% of American's live on 3% of the land. This is by design and is only going to get worse. This is not a Utah issue, or a Utah mindset that blames the UN. It is the current plan, by the UN, and it is being implemented intentionally.

Urbanization does reduce self sufficiency. Think of an IKEA inspired high density housing unit storing a year supply of food or more than a child or two, let alone land to produce for oneself.

We do not have a problem of overpopulation, we have a problem with intentional crowding.

I again reference the current UN 2030 plan.

moonwhim wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 2:13 pm Get Ready Utah, here is what is happening in California, and this disease will soon overtake your towns!! It is all communist/socialist BS vomiting from the UN!

Watch Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZhI9vv ... 92&list=WL

And check out more of grindall61 videos on youtube to see how they are striving to take down freedom in Calif.

Silicon Valley, Silicon Mountain, Silicon Slopes.

Not a coincidence. All part of the plan.

moonwhim wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 2:13 pm Get Ready Utah, here is what is happening in California, and this disease will soon overtake your towns!! It is all communist/socialist BS vomiting from the UN!

Watch Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZhI9vv ... 92&list=WL

And check out more of grindall61 videos on youtube to see how they are striving to take down freedom in Calif.

Well, Moonie, I tell you, if I lived in California, I'd move.
dc

captainfearnot wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 10:17 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 9:51 am Getting back to Orem, from what I have read I cannot understand where the communism charge comes from. If the feeling is that the city council getting involved in redeveloping a major thoroughfare in the town smacks of communism, I think that is out of order.
If it's something else, then clearly I have missed something.

In Utah they see the evil UN lurking around every corner. That's honestly something I haven't thought of since I moved away from the state 20 years ago (well, except for that time in 2001 when La Verkin made national headlines after passing a city ordinance declaring the town a UN-free zone) but this thread has been an entertaining reminder.

Really it's just the same dynamic you see whenever cities grow, the different sides of the political divide want different things. And the negative political ads maligning the other side are naturally going to accuse them of being in league with whatever gets people shaking in their boots. In Utah that tends to be the UN. And apparently, when the target market is old timers resistant to change, also Communism.

Just remember fear not, none of that means the UN is not evil.
dc

Serragon wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 12:41 pm Urban living leads to dependence and reliance on government. Rural living leads to independence and less reliance on government.

According to this study from the Pew Research Center, 62% of rural residents have received aid from a Federal entitlement program, compared to 54% of urban residents and 53% of suburban residents.

captainfearnot wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 6:07 pm

Serragon wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 12:41 pm Urban living leads to dependence and reliance on government. Rural living leads to independence and less reliance on government.

According to this study from the Pew Research Center, 62% of rural residents have received aid from a Federal entitlement program, compared to 54% of urban residents and 53% of suburban residents.

This is a good point which is often brought up. I believe that this fact is actually because of urbanization and the voting patterns of those in urban areas. Industries are driven out of rural communities by the city folks which leaves people with a choice of abandoning their culture and move to the city, live in a rural area with a handout, or prostitute yourself by trying to appeal to tourists. This is starting to change a bit with the availablity of tele-commuting via the internet, but that doesn't really bring back industry or community.

But dependence on government is measured by much more than aid from govt welfare programs. Having lived in both environments, it is clear that the more urban things are, the more you depend on the government to do things for you and resolve your issues for you.

In addition, my comment was that it increases dependence as well as reliance on government. Those in urban environments are nearly completely dependent upon others for their survival.

captainfearnot wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 6:07 pm

Serragon wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 12:41 pm Urban living leads to dependence and reliance on government. Rural living leads to independence and less reliance on government.

According to this study from the Pew Research Center, 62% of rural residents have received aid from a Federal entitlement program, compared to 54% of urban residents and 53% of suburban residents.

I would bet that number is skewed by the larger commercial farms that receive subsidies (a farmer is almost always poor on paper, no matter how much land or how big the truck )

Michelle wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 2:33 pm

David13 wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 12:08 pm

Meili wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 11:07 am Having lived in this world for a few decades I've come to the conclusion that pretty much there's always force involved in anything that goes on. The differences of opinion come from what exactly is okay to force on other people.

Here's what I wonder about all this. The rents in Utah have increased by about 50% in the past two years, from what I can tell. What was once $600 is now $900. The wages haven't increased at that rate, however. Will these new developments create more competition in rental rates? Will they enable more people to obtain housing?

Well, it seems to me what they will do is jam more people into less space.
Which is something well known to cause all kinds of problems. And just generally lower the quality of life. *

Reminds me of a professor I had at the University of Michigan. He used to look out the window and reminisce about the old days, some of which he had lived.

He said when he found out that there were more than 100,000 people in Washtenaw County, he moved to the next county.

That's sort of what I have done. And I'm quite happy about it, too.
dc


* But it does maximize profit for the developer and the landlord.

You are correct.

Isaiah5:8 ¶ Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!

(Footnote 8c "IE be left to dwell alone. The wealthy landowners absorb the small farms of the poor."

This urbanization is not spontaneous or natural. I does affect quality of life. It is part of the prophesies of the last days.

The USA is the third most populous country in the world. 100% of American's live on 3% of the land. This is by design and is only going to get worse. This is not a Utah issue, or a Utah mindset that blames the UN. It is the current plan, by the UN, and it is being implemented intentionally.

Urbanization does reduce self sufficiency. Think of an IKEA inspired high density housing unit storing a year supply of food or more than a child or two, let alone land to produce for oneself.

We do not have a problem of overpopulation, we have a problem with intentional crowding.

I again reference the current UN 2030 plan.

I lean toward a more rural type of environment as being ideal, myself. The highest benefit in my opinion is the freedom from close neighbors getting in your business. Of course, if you lived in a community that was supportive of your lifestyle, not judgmental, etc., then living close to others would probably be better. In many cultures, houses were built close together and farmers would leave the city to work the land because of the benefits of safety in living in a more dense community.

I don't believe the developers and city planners are sinisterly rubbing their hands together trying to figure out how to fleece the people of Orem. It's easy to objectify them and paint them in a bad light. I think a lot more would be accomplished by trying to understand where they are coming from and seeking ways to address the problems they are trying to solve instead of making it into a tug-of-war between opposing sides.

Serragon wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 6:36 pm

captainfearnot wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 6:07 pm

Serragon wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 12:41 pm Urban living leads to dependence and reliance on government. Rural living leads to independence and less reliance on government.

According to this study from the Pew Research Center, 62% of rural residents have received aid from a Federal entitlement program, compared to 54% of urban residents and 53% of suburban residents.

This is a good point which is often brought up. I believe that this fact is actually because of urbanization and the voting patterns of those in urban areas. Industries are driven out of rural communities by the city folks which leaves people with a choice of abandoning their culture and move to the city, live in a rural area with a handout, or prostitute yourself by trying to appeal to tourists. This is starting to change a bit with the availablity of tele-commuting via the internet, but that doesn't really bring back industry or community.

But dependence on government is measured by much more than aid from govt welfare programs. Having lived in both environments, it is clear that the more urban things are, the more you depend on the government to do things for you and resolve your issues for you.

In addition, my comment was that it increases dependence as well as reliance on government. Those in urban environments are nearly completely dependent upon others for their survival.

When this country was founded 98% of the population were farmers. Today it's down to about 1 or 2%. There were many reasons for this, as others mention, farming is a tough business. But it no longer is labor intensive.
Today huge farming companies farm 1000s and 1000s of acres. There isn't much room for the small farmer, unless, like quite a few here (here, and on this board) who farm for home or home and friends consumption.
So, to find jobs my grandfather and father had to work in the city and no longer on the old farm/homestead.
Farming can't support so many people and hasn't been able to for quite a few years, so you actually have greater poverty and blight and abandon homes, etc in rural areas.
In Los Angeles there is a tremendous demand for urban housing. This is heavily driven by immigration, both legal and illegal. However, the immigrants are a different caliber today. Low education and no skills. How do they afford real estate in Los Angeles? Extended family, 4 to 6 people to a bedroom, some sleep in shifts, working nights, etc. A family or two living in the garage. And extensive use of government handouts.
It all violates city codes, and some cities try to enforce it, others don't.
dc

moonwhim wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 2:13 pm Get Ready Utah, here is what is happening in California, and this disease will soon overtake your towns!! It is all communist/socialist BS vomiting from the UN!

Watch Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZhI9vv ... 92&list=WL

And check out more of grindall61 videos on youtube to see how they are striving to take down freedom in Calif.

They are not striving. They are taking down. And they have taken down. If you knew anything about guns and California you would be horrified.
dc

David13 wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 1:00 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 12:57 pm The New Jerusalem is a city.
I suspect the density will be high.

No, it will be semi rural and very low density.

The reason why the UN wants people conglomerated into huge urban monstrosities is for the purpose of control.

Robin Hood, do you feel you need more government control in your life?
dc

No I don't.
But that has got nothing to do with where you or I choose to live.
In fact, anonimity is much easier in a large city. If you want to stay under the radar, live in a very large city; no one will notice you.
And Zion will not be semi-rural. It will be a city where the density is high. Check out Joseph's plans and see for yourself.

David13 wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 8:58 pm

moonwhim wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 2:13 pm Get Ready Utah, here is what is happening in California, and this disease will soon overtake your towns!! It is all communist/socialist BS vomiting from the UN!

Watch Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZhI9vv ... 92&list=WL

And check out more of grindall61 videos on youtube to see how they are striving to take down freedom in Calif.

They are not striving. They are taking down. And they have taken down. If you knew anything about guns and California you would be horrified.
dc

I live in Calif and this place is sinking into hell quickly. Our Gov Brown recently visited Communist China and said that we should be more like them!

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 12th, 2017, 12:34 am

David13 wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 1:00 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 12:57 pm The New Jerusalem is a city.
I suspect the density will be high.

No, it will be semi rural and very low density.

The reason why the UN wants people conglomerated into huge urban monstrosities is for the purpose of control.

Robin Hood, do you feel you need more government control in your life?
dc

No I don't.
But that has got nothing to do with where you or I choose to live.
In fact, anonimity is much easier in a large city. If you want to stay under the radar, live in a very large city; no one will notice you.
And Zion will not be semi-rural. It will be a city where the density is high. Check out Joseph's plans and see for yourself.

Why would I want anonymity? I have never wanted it, and never had it.
As far as I can tell, I'm close to Zion now, and it's not near SLC.
You can live where you want. That's up to you. Unless the UN gets hold of you and/or your country.
dc

moonwhim wrote: ↑October 12th, 2017, 1:02 am

David13 wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 8:58 pm

moonwhim wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 2:13 pm Get Ready Utah, here is what is happening in California, and this disease will soon overtake your towns!! It is all communist/socialist BS vomiting from the UN!

Watch Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZhI9vv ... 92&list=WL

And check out more of grindall61 videos on youtube to see how they are striving to take down freedom in Calif.

They are not striving. They are taking down. And they have taken down. If you knew anything about guns and California you would be horrified.
dc

I live in Calif and this place is sinking into hell quickly. Our Gov Brown recently visited Communist China and said that we should be more like them!

I spent 44 years there. I'm still not completely detoxed.
dc

moonwhim wrote: ↑October 12th, 2017, 1:02 am I live in Calif and this place is sinking into hell quickly. Our Gov Brown recently visited Communist China and said that we should be more like them!

At the rate the Chinese are buying up property along the pacific coast it won't be long until California is exactly like them.

This thread is a joke. The US had been communistic for along time. The day Orem city adopted a master plan with accompanying zoning laws is the day they collectivized everyones property. Orem probably did this in the 60's so Orem city has been communistic for over 50 years.

Meili wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 7:40 pm

Michelle wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 2:33 pm

David13 wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 12:08 pm

Meili wrote: ↑October 11th, 2017, 11:07 am Having lived in this world for a few decades I've come to the conclusion that pretty much there's always force involved in anything that goes on. The differences of opinion come from what exactly is okay to force on other people.

Here's what I wonder about all this. The rents in Utah have increased by about 50% in the past two years, from what I can tell. What was once $600 is now $900. The wages haven't increased at that rate, however. Will these new developments create more competition in rental rates? Will they enable more people to obtain housing?

Well, it seems to me what they will do is jam more people into less space.
Which is something well known to cause all kinds of problems. And just generally lower the quality of life. *

Reminds me of a professor I had at the University of Michigan. He used to look out the window and reminisce about the old days, some of which he had lived.

He said when he found out that there were more than 100,000 people in Washtenaw County, he moved to the next county.

That's sort of what I have done. And I'm quite happy about it, too.
dc


* But it does maximize profit for the developer and the landlord.

You are correct.

Isaiah5:8 ¶ Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!

(Footnote 8c "IE be left to dwell alone. The wealthy landowners absorb the small farms of the poor."

This urbanization is not spontaneous or natural. I does affect quality of life. It is part of the prophesies of the last days.

The USA is the third most populous country in the world. 100% of American's live on 3% of the land. This is by design and is only going to get worse. This is not a Utah issue, or a Utah mindset that blames the UN. It is the current plan, by the UN, and it is being implemented intentionally.

Urbanization does reduce self sufficiency. Think of an IKEA inspired high density housing unit storing a year supply of food or more than a child or two, let alone land to produce for oneself.

We do not have a problem of overpopulation, we have a problem with intentional crowding.

I again reference the current UN 2030 plan.

I lean toward a more rural type of environment as being ideal, myself. The highest benefit in my opinion is the freedom from close neighbors getting in your business. Of course, if you lived in a community that was supportive of your lifestyle, not judgmental, etc., then living close to others would probably be better. In many cultures, houses were built close together and farmers would leave the city to work the land because of the benefits of safety in living in a more dense community.

I don't believe the developers and city planners are sinisterly rubbing their hands together trying to figure out how to fleece the people of Orem. It's easy to objectify them and paint them in a bad light. I think a lot more would be accomplished by trying to understand where they are coming from and seeking ways to address the problems they are trying to solve instead of making it into a tug-of-war between opposing sides.

Being related to some large developers, I can tell you that what you don't believe is an accurate description of them. Developers run this state and they do it for themselves only.