Orem Promoting Communism

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Ben McClintock
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Orem Promoting Communism

Post by Ben McClintock »

Looks like Orem needs a change
orem communist2.jpg
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Rose Garden
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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by Rose Garden »

Huh?

Lizzy60
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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by Lizzy60 »

What's wrong with State Street?

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David13
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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by David13 »

I guess they think it's too "capitalist".
dc

tribrac
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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by tribrac »

Clearly we are going to need a new approach. After all, it is for the children....clearly.

Although to be fair, I don't see how they are specifically calling for communism.

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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by Silver »

Outgoing councilman Hans Andersen said he voted against the plan because he’s unsure where the funding will come from. He likened it to a Kindergarten girl running for class president and offering everyone ice cream in return for a vote. “Who’s going to pay for the ice cream?” Andersen said.
http://elevennews.byu.edu/2015/11/orem- ... ster-plan/

God bless the Andersen family now and in the eternities.

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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by Michelle »

This plan has been a thorn in my side since I first heard about it.

I have tried to explain to so many people the purpose and problems with it, but many just don't want to see.

This is a direct result of UN Agenda 21/2030. It is a direct attack on freedom and the family. It is a plan of population consolidation and control. It is not just about State Street.

I went to a city meeting for our neighborhood over a year ago. It was a farce to pretend they were listening while trying to convince those in attendance that that those who didn't want it were in the minority.

Orem is taking its cues from Provo's "success."

Orem used the .solgan "Family City USA." No more. I'm serious. Check out the sign at the city entrance of I-15 and, I believe, Center Street. The slogan is gone. Rightly so, its hard to raise a family in high density studio and one bedroom housing.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by Robin Hood »

Not having the faintest idea what you were all talking about, I looked up Orem State Street to see for myself.
From what I've read, it seems like a pretty good plan to me.
Am I missing something?

tribrac
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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by tribrac »

Robin Hood wrote: October 10th, 2017, 4:14 pm Am I missing something?
Clearly. ;)

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David13
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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by David13 »

Robin Hood wrote: October 10th, 2017, 4:14 pm Not having the faintest idea what you were all talking about, I looked up Orem State Street to see for myself.
From what I've read, it seems like a pretty good plan to me.
Am I missing something?

In more than one way, it's like the Brexit issue in your area.
dc

Michelle
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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by Michelle »

Robin Hood wrote: October 10th, 2017, 4:14 pm Not having the faintest idea what you were all talking about, I looked up Orem State Street to see for myself.
From what I've read, it seems like a pretty good plan to me.
Am I missing something?
Probably.

I went to look up the original document (it is massive) but all I can find now are summaries that don't paint the whole picture.

If anybody has the link to the original document I would love it. If I remember correctly the plan is to get Orem City to a much higher density than Salt Lake and even than (this is where my memory is getting fuzzy) Denver, Colorado?

The plan goes neighborhood by neighborhood (neighborhood names were recently created for this purpose) and removes a certain amount of single family house at a time to create high density housing, even if the neighborhood doesn't want it, using eminent domain. I believe this has already been done once in Orem (can anyone remember the neighborhood name?)

Even the summary documents focus on how much of an increase in tax revenue will be generated by this plan.

I hate to say it, but my old Stake President is on the city council and is a developer. He was a nice guy otherwise, but this is all about enriching the developers, not improving Orem.

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Ben McClintock
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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by Ben McClintock »

correct, it's been heavily edited once they started being exposed. email me at ben at defendingutah.org and I will send you the original

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h_p
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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by h_p »

We have looked over your city, and now want to take possession of the whole of it.

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Yahtzee
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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by Yahtzee »

Michelle wrote: October 10th, 2017, 1:12 pm
Orem is taking its cues from Provo's "success."
Ha! Every Provo meeting is a whine fest about how we all have to drive to Orem to shop and why can't Provo get a Trader Joe's? But everywhere I look, in both cities I see the fruits of real estate developers. In 30 years west Provo farm land will look like Orem's orchards. Extinct.
The more "successful" Provo becomes, the more I want to move to Nephi.
Orem State St really is ugly though, ha ha!

tribrac
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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by tribrac »

Uh, do yall know who buys farms and turns them into subdivisions? Particularly in Utah?

And if you dont like that, save yourdelf some stress...dont move to Nephi.

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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by EmmaLee »

tribrac wrote: October 11th, 2017, 1:46 am Uh, do yall know who buys farms and turns them into subdivisions? Particularly in Utah?
Who? I'm not from Utah, but I'd really like to know. Thanks.

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captainfearnot
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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by captainfearnot »

Michelle wrote: October 10th, 2017, 6:44 pm I went to look up the original document (it is massive) but all I can find now are summaries that don't paint the whole picture.

If anybody has the link to the original document I would love it.
https://www.utah.gov/pmn/files/197457.pdf

The part quoted in the OP is on page 84. Read the whole section and you'll see that what they are calling for is a grass roots campaign, and nothing to do with Communism. Although it was pretty stupid of them to malign capitalism, conservatism, and pioneer ancestry—however obliquely—while trying to make the case that branding would be paramount for the success of their initiative.

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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by Michelle »

Yahtzee wrote: October 11th, 2017, 12:52 am
Michelle wrote: October 10th, 2017, 1:12 pm
Orem is taking its cues from Provo's "success."
Ha! Every Provo meeting is a whine fest about how we all have to drive to Orem to shop and why can't Provo get a Trader Joe's? But everywhere I look, in both cities I see the fruits of real estate developers. In 30 years west Provo farm land will look like Orem's orchards. Extinct.
The more "successful" Provo becomes, the more I want to move to Nephi.
Orem State St really is ugly though, ha ha!
I meant that literally. Orem asked Provo about how they were doing things (under John Curtis-please don't vote for him for anything else!) and followed their directions to set up neighborhoods and make the city plan.

We actually lived in Provo at the time and specifically DIDN'T buy a house there because of the direction the city was headed. Unfortunately Orem adopted made its plan just as we bought in Orem. Terrible timing.

Michelle
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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by Michelle »

tribrac wrote: October 11th, 2017, 1:46 am Uh, do yall know who buys farms and turns them into subdivisions? Particularly in Utah?

And if you dont like that, save yourdelf some stress...dont move to Nephi.
The church sells the orchards, but the cities develop them into the high density housing (live/work/play) communities.

I don't think there is actually anything wrong with that. I think they are inspired to get rid of them at the height of their worth.

Same thing happened before the housing bubble burst.

We had a singles ward orchard assignment and got calls the night before that it was cancelled because they sold the orchard. Right after, real estate plummeted. Inspiration or study or both, but the church did well for the members at that time.

Michelle
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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by Michelle »

captainfearnot wrote: October 11th, 2017, 7:37 am
Michelle wrote: October 10th, 2017, 6:44 pm I went to look up the original document (it is massive) but all I can find now are summaries that don't paint the whole picture.

If anybody has the link to the original document I would love it.
https://www.utah.gov/pmn/files/197457.pdf

The part quoted in the OP is on page 84. Read the whole section and you'll see that what they are calling for is a grass roots campaign, and nothing to do with Communism. Although it was pretty stupid of them to malign capitalism, conservatism, and pioneer ancestry—however obliquely—while trying to make the case that branding would be paramount for the success of their initiative.
Thank you for the link. That looks like the original report I read.

If that was all, it would still be unwise. But they actually are aligning with Communism because the plan was developed under the principles of UN Agenda 21/2030.

Transforming our world: the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development
https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/p ... ngourworld
I highly recommend reading the plan. It is not incredibly long, just incredibly concerning.

It does reference lumping in the previous plans:


They seek to build on the Millennium Development Goals and complete what these did not achieve.
10. The new Agenda is guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations, including full respect for international law. It is grounded in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, international human rights treaties, the Millennium Declaration and the 2005 World Summit Outcome Document. It is informed by other instruments such as the Declaration on the Right to Development.
11. We reaffirm the outcomes of all major UN conferences and summits which have laid a solid foundation for sustainable development and have helped to shape the new Agenda. These include the Rio Declaration on Environment and Development; the World Summit on Sustainable Development; the World Summit for Social Development; the Programme of Action of the International Conference on Population and Development, the Beijing Platform for Action; and the United Nations Conference on Sustainable Development ("Rio+ 20"). We also reaffirm the follow-up to these conferences, including the outcomes of the Fourth United Nations Conference on the Least Developed Countries, the Third International Conference on Small Island Developing States; the Second United Nations Conference on Landlocked Developing Countries; and the Third UN World Conference on Disaster Risk Reduction.
12. We reaffirm all the principles of the Rio Declaration on Environment and Development, including, inter alia, the principle of common but differentiated responsibilities, as set out in principle 7 thereof.
13. The challenges and commitments contained in these major conferences and summits are interrelated and call for integrated solutions. To address them effectively, a new approach is needed. Sustainable development recognizes that eradicating poverty in all its forms and dimensions, combatting inequality within and among countries, preserving the planet, creating sustained, inclusive and sustainable economic growth and fostering social inclusion are linked to each other and are interdependent.
Not to mention the ICLEI Cities in Utah (The link provides an incomplete list, they stopped updating it at some point when people started catching on) but you can still see Park City and Summit County on the list. I would again recommend learning more about this and how it is directly affecting us in Utah (and where ever you live in the world. This isn't just the USA.)
ICLEI USA
Local Governments for Sustainability
http://icleiusa.org/membership/

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Robin Hood
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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by Robin Hood »

I'm not familiar with town planning principles in the US, nor with the processes employed to determine what is or isn't appropriate.
I know when I visited Salt Lake City I was surprised, and not in a good way, at the number of high buildings (one being the COB) near the temple. The temple is dwarfed by them.
I compared this with York, the closest city to my home. York Minster is a large cathedral in the centre of the city, dating back to around 1250 AD. It dominates the sky line and is visible from all parts of the city. No building high enough to dominate the cathedral or obscure it from view, can be built.
Clearly SLC has a different approach.

Getting back to Orem, from what I have read I cannot understand where the communism charge comes from. If the feeling is that the city council getting involved in redeveloping a major thoroughfare in the town smacks of communism, I think that is out of order.
If it's something else, then clearly I have missed something.

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captainfearnot
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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by captainfearnot »

Robin Hood wrote: October 11th, 2017, 9:51 am Getting back to Orem, from what I have read I cannot understand where the communism charge comes from. If the feeling is that the city council getting involved in redeveloping a major thoroughfare in the town smacks of communism, I think that is out of order.
If it's something else, then clearly I have missed something.
In Utah they see the evil UN lurking around every corner. That's honestly something I haven't thought of since I moved away from the state 20 years ago (well, except for that time in 2001 when La Verkin made national headlines after passing a city ordinance declaring the town a UN-free zone) but this thread has been an entertaining reminder.

Really it's just the same dynamic you see whenever cities grow, the different sides of the political divide want different things. And the negative political ads maligning the other side are naturally going to accuse them of being in league with whatever gets people shaking in their boots. In Utah that tends to be the UN. And apparently, when the target market is old timers resistant to change, also Communism.

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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by tribrac »

Michelle i want to clarify a point. A city may zone property for housing, they nay approve plans but the do not develop property. Developers develop property, and it is not accurate to say the church holds propety but does not act as a developer. The church does not build houses but they are very much into development.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by Rose Garden »

Having lived in this world for a few decades I've come to the conclusion that pretty much there's always force involved in anything that goes on. The differences of opinion come from what exactly is okay to force on other people.

Here's what I wonder about all this. The rents in Utah have increased by about 50% in the past two years, from what I can tell. What was once $600 is now $900. The wages haven't increased at that rate, however. Will these new developments create more competition in rental rates? Will they enable more people to obtain housing?

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David13
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Re: Orem Promoting Communism

Post by David13 »

Meili wrote: October 11th, 2017, 11:07 am Having lived in this world for a few decades I've come to the conclusion that pretty much there's always force involved in anything that goes on. The differences of opinion come from what exactly is okay to force on other people.

Here's what I wonder about all this. The rents in Utah have increased by about 50% in the past two years, from what I can tell. What was once $600 is now $900. The wages haven't increased at that rate, however. Will these new developments create more competition in rental rates? Will they enable more people to obtain housing?
Well, it seems to me what they will do is jam more people into less space.
Which is something well known to cause all kinds of problems. And just generally lower the quality of life. *

Reminds me of a professor I had at the University of Michigan. He used to look out the window and reminisce about the old days, some of which he had lived.

He said when he found out that there were more than 100,000 people in Washtenaw County, he moved to the next county.

That's sort of what I have done. And I'm quite happy about it, too.
dc


* But it does maximize profit for the developer and the landlord.

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