The scriptures tell us to support the Constitution. The Prophets have said the same. Legalized plunder is a sin. Socialism is a crime. Supporting it in anyway is wrong. Yet I hear so many excuses. Sadly my wife has bought into the trash her father talks about the bailout or else we will be in the vision Wilford Woodruff or John Taylor had of the last days with total collapse.
I thought we needed a thread that lists all the lame excuses as to why people justify viuolating the commandments and the treasures of knowledge we have regarding principles of freedom and the constitution.
(CHH try not to take over the entire thread with you examples)
In scriptures are there not examples of people sinning and then using justification and that justification being predicted? We read the Book of Mormon and study it and we learn more about Human nature and psychology than study of psychology.
So what are the excuses and justification foir violating the commandments regarding the constitution and secret combinations?
Should we list them? Should we then discuss again the results from such? Or do we go in circles with this endlessly?
EXCUSES EXCUSES
-
WYp8riot
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1609
- Location: WYOMING
Re: EXCUSES EXCUSES
My email rant... Am I way off base here?
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 18:25:11 -0700
Subject: FW: THE DEBATE CONTINUES!
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
The attachment is a valid reminder of the dire circumstances we are in and why. It is a reminder that those who chose a moral legal and constitutional path (as we are commanded in scripture and by prophets) have been ignoreed, ridiculed and verbally stoned. Yet as the attachment reminds RON PAUL: is one of the few honest politicians that predicted and warned of this financial crises. He was one of the few discussing it honestly. The others simply decieve or are down right ignorant regarding the monetary system. Wickedness never was happiness, and there is no justification for supporting unconstitutional measures, bailouts etc against Gods commands and scripture. We are literally becoming prisoners of our own devises. Sadly I agree with the attachment and the bailout and support of the ANTI-God inspired constitutional method is not the answer. It is the problem and not the solution. It always has been. It is as E.T. Benson said the cause of destruction of the civilizations that came before us and the scriptures clearly state if we do not follow GOD (and his inspired constitution he commands we support and uphold) and we allow Secret combinations to get gain above us, we will have no more promise for this nation. Sadly instead of returning to such scriptural and prophetic counsel many do just the opposite with endless excuses and justification. Forgive me but I can not agree with any excuse for doing the opposite of prophetic counsel and scriptorial command regarding the support of the constitution.
Sadly it is a catholic Congressman that has shown more interest in sticking to the Honest moral and Godly path when we would think at all costs that would come more from our sleeping Giant priesthood holders. Where do the prophets or scriptures give exceptions to following the commandment regarding the constitution? If there is such I would humbly be mistaken, but NO PRIESTHOOD HOLDER CAN HONESTLY DEBATE thier reasons for violating what is clearly commanded in the Book of Mormon. Please show me where I am wrong!
You can disagree with Ron Paul but I can be proud to stand alone supporting one of the few honest politicians. I will find no joy in supporting the ignorant and dishonest politicians that helped creat this mess. It goes against all logic. If anyone can share prophetic or scriptorial debate to support such unconstitutional measures I will humbly agree there may be another legitimate perspective. It appears the 'ALL IS WELL XROWD STILL CANT LET GO OF THE DISHONEST POLITICIANS THAT THROUGH IGNORANCE OR WILLFULL INTENT HAVE MISLEAD THIER CONSTITUENTS.
-Paul
Ralph, Highlighting was a good idea!
--Forwarded Message Attachment--
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 15:53:35 -0400
To: [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Subject: My Answer to the President
Dear Friends:
The financial meltdown the economists of the Austrian School predicted has arrived.
We are in this crisis because of an excess of artificially created credit at the hands of the Federal Reserve System. The solution being proposed? More artificial credit by the Federal Reserve. No liquidation of bad debt and malinvestment is to be allowed. By doing more of the same, we will only continue and intensify the distortions in our economy - all the capital misallocation, all the malinvestment - and prevent the market's attempt to re-establish rational pricing of houses and other assets.
Last night the president addressed the nation about the financial crisis. There is no point in going through his remarks line by line, since I'd only be repeating what I've been saying over and over - not just for the past several days, but for years and even decades.
Still, at least a few observations are necessary.
The president assures us that his administration 'is working with Congress to address the root cause behind much of the instability in our markets.' Care to take a guess at whether the Federal Reserve and its money creation spree were even mentioned?
We are told that 'low interest rates' led to excessive borrowing, but we are not told how these low interest rates came about. They were a deliberate policy of the Federal Reserve. As always, artificially low interest rates distort the market. Entrepreneurs engage in malinvestments - investments that do not make sense in light of current resource availability, that occur in more temporally remote stages of the capital structure than the pattern of consumer demand can support, and that would not have been made at all if the interest rate had been permitted to tell the truth instead of being toyed with by the Fed.
Not a word about any of that, of course, because Americans might then discover how the great wise men in Washington caused this great debacle. Better to keep scapegoating the mortgage industry or 'wildcat capitalism' (as if we actually have a pure free market!).
Speaking about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the president said: 'Because these companies were chartered by Congress, many believed they were guaranteed by the federal government. This allowed them to borrow enormous sums of money, fuel the market for questionable investments, and put our financial system at risk.'
Doesn't that prove the foolishness of chartering Fannie and Freddie in the first place? Doesn't that suggest that maybe, just maybe, government may have contributed to this mess? And of course, by bailing out Fannie and Freddie, hasn't the federal government shown that the 'many' who 'believed they were guaranteed by the federal government' were in fact correct?
Then come the scare tactics. If we don't give dictatorial powers to the Treasury Secretary 'the stock market would drop even more, which would reduce the value of your retirement account. The value of your home could plummet.' Left unsaid, naturally, is that with the bailout and all the money and credit that must be produced out of thin air to fund it, the value of your retirement account will drop anyway, because the value of the dollar will suffer a precipitous decline. As for home prices, they are obviously much too high, and supply and demand cannot equilibrate if government insists on propping them up.
It's the same destructive strategy that government tried during the Great Depression: prop up prices at all costs. The Depression went on for over a decade. On the other hand, when liquidation was allowed to occur in the equally devastating downturn of 1921, the economy recovered within less than a year.
The president also tells us that Senators McCain and Obama will join him at the White House today in order to figure out how to get the bipartisan bailout passed. The two senators would do their country much more good if they stayed on the campaign trail debating who the bigger celebrity is, or whatever it is that occupies their attention these days.
F.A. Hayek won the Nobel Prize for showing how central banks' manipulation of interest rates creates the boom-bust cycle with which we are sadly familiar. In 1932, in the depths of the Great Depression, he described the foolish policies being pursued in his day - and which are being proposed, just as destructively, in our own:
Instead of furthering the inevitable liquidation of the maladjustments brought about by the boom during the last three years, all conceivable means have been used to prevent that readjustment from taking place; and one of these means, which has been repeatedly tried though without success, from the earliest to the most recent stages of depression, has been this deliberate policy of credit expansion.
To combat the depression by a forced credit expansion is to attempt to cure the evil by the very means which brought it about; because we are suffering from a misdirection of production, we want to create further misdirection - a procedure that can only lead to a much more severe crisis as soon as the credit expansion comes to an end... It is probably to this experiment, together with the attempts to prevent liquidation once the crisis had come, that we owe the exceptional severity and duration of the depression.
The only thing we learn from history, I am afraid, is that we do not learn from history.
The very people who have spent the past several years assuring us that the economy is fundamentally sound, and who themselves foolishly cheered the extension of all these novel kinds of mortgages, are the ones who now claim to be the experts who will restore prosperity! Just how spectacularly wrong, how utterly without a clue, does someone have to be before his expert status is called into question? (Equally disturbing is how guillable the citizenry is to keep supporting these fools -Paul)
Oh, and did you notice that the bailout is now being called a 'rescue plan'? I guess 'bailout' wasn't sitting too well with the American people.
The very people who with somber faces tell us of their deep concern for the spread of democracy around the world are the ones most insistent on forcing a bill through Congress that the American people overwhelmingly oppose. The very fact that some of you seem to think you're supposed to have a voice in all this actually seems to annoy them.
I continue to urge you to contact your representatives and give them a piece of your mind. I myself am doing everything I can to promote the correct point of view on the crisis. Be sure also to educate yourselves on these subjects - the Campaign for Liberty blog is an excellent place to start. Read the posts, ask questions in the comment section, and learn.
H.G. Wells once said that civilization was in a race between education and catastrophe. Let us learn the truth and spread it as far and wide as our circumstances allow. For the truth is the greatest weapon we have.
In liberty,
Ron Paul
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 18:25:11 -0700
Subject: FW: THE DEBATE CONTINUES!
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
The attachment is a valid reminder of the dire circumstances we are in and why. It is a reminder that those who chose a moral legal and constitutional path (as we are commanded in scripture and by prophets) have been ignoreed, ridiculed and verbally stoned. Yet as the attachment reminds RON PAUL: is one of the few honest politicians that predicted and warned of this financial crises. He was one of the few discussing it honestly. The others simply decieve or are down right ignorant regarding the monetary system. Wickedness never was happiness, and there is no justification for supporting unconstitutional measures, bailouts etc against Gods commands and scripture. We are literally becoming prisoners of our own devises. Sadly I agree with the attachment and the bailout and support of the ANTI-God inspired constitutional method is not the answer. It is the problem and not the solution. It always has been. It is as E.T. Benson said the cause of destruction of the civilizations that came before us and the scriptures clearly state if we do not follow GOD (and his inspired constitution he commands we support and uphold) and we allow Secret combinations to get gain above us, we will have no more promise for this nation. Sadly instead of returning to such scriptural and prophetic counsel many do just the opposite with endless excuses and justification. Forgive me but I can not agree with any excuse for doing the opposite of prophetic counsel and scriptorial command regarding the support of the constitution.
Sadly it is a catholic Congressman that has shown more interest in sticking to the Honest moral and Godly path when we would think at all costs that would come more from our sleeping Giant priesthood holders. Where do the prophets or scriptures give exceptions to following the commandment regarding the constitution? If there is such I would humbly be mistaken, but NO PRIESTHOOD HOLDER CAN HONESTLY DEBATE thier reasons for violating what is clearly commanded in the Book of Mormon. Please show me where I am wrong!
You can disagree with Ron Paul but I can be proud to stand alone supporting one of the few honest politicians. I will find no joy in supporting the ignorant and dishonest politicians that helped creat this mess. It goes against all logic. If anyone can share prophetic or scriptorial debate to support such unconstitutional measures I will humbly agree there may be another legitimate perspective. It appears the 'ALL IS WELL XROWD STILL CANT LET GO OF THE DISHONEST POLITICIANS THAT THROUGH IGNORANCE OR WILLFULL INTENT HAVE MISLEAD THIER CONSTITUENTS.
-Paul
Ralph, Highlighting was a good idea!
--Forwarded Message Attachment--
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 15:53:35 -0400
To: [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Subject: My Answer to the President
Dear Friends:
The financial meltdown the economists of the Austrian School predicted has arrived.
We are in this crisis because of an excess of artificially created credit at the hands of the Federal Reserve System. The solution being proposed? More artificial credit by the Federal Reserve. No liquidation of bad debt and malinvestment is to be allowed. By doing more of the same, we will only continue and intensify the distortions in our economy - all the capital misallocation, all the malinvestment - and prevent the market's attempt to re-establish rational pricing of houses and other assets.
Last night the president addressed the nation about the financial crisis. There is no point in going through his remarks line by line, since I'd only be repeating what I've been saying over and over - not just for the past several days, but for years and even decades.
Still, at least a few observations are necessary.
The president assures us that his administration 'is working with Congress to address the root cause behind much of the instability in our markets.' Care to take a guess at whether the Federal Reserve and its money creation spree were even mentioned?
We are told that 'low interest rates' led to excessive borrowing, but we are not told how these low interest rates came about. They were a deliberate policy of the Federal Reserve. As always, artificially low interest rates distort the market. Entrepreneurs engage in malinvestments - investments that do not make sense in light of current resource availability, that occur in more temporally remote stages of the capital structure than the pattern of consumer demand can support, and that would not have been made at all if the interest rate had been permitted to tell the truth instead of being toyed with by the Fed.
Not a word about any of that, of course, because Americans might then discover how the great wise men in Washington caused this great debacle. Better to keep scapegoating the mortgage industry or 'wildcat capitalism' (as if we actually have a pure free market!).
Speaking about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the president said: 'Because these companies were chartered by Congress, many believed they were guaranteed by the federal government. This allowed them to borrow enormous sums of money, fuel the market for questionable investments, and put our financial system at risk.'
Doesn't that prove the foolishness of chartering Fannie and Freddie in the first place? Doesn't that suggest that maybe, just maybe, government may have contributed to this mess? And of course, by bailing out Fannie and Freddie, hasn't the federal government shown that the 'many' who 'believed they were guaranteed by the federal government' were in fact correct?
Then come the scare tactics. If we don't give dictatorial powers to the Treasury Secretary 'the stock market would drop even more, which would reduce the value of your retirement account. The value of your home could plummet.' Left unsaid, naturally, is that with the bailout and all the money and credit that must be produced out of thin air to fund it, the value of your retirement account will drop anyway, because the value of the dollar will suffer a precipitous decline. As for home prices, they are obviously much too high, and supply and demand cannot equilibrate if government insists on propping them up.
It's the same destructive strategy that government tried during the Great Depression: prop up prices at all costs. The Depression went on for over a decade. On the other hand, when liquidation was allowed to occur in the equally devastating downturn of 1921, the economy recovered within less than a year.
The president also tells us that Senators McCain and Obama will join him at the White House today in order to figure out how to get the bipartisan bailout passed. The two senators would do their country much more good if they stayed on the campaign trail debating who the bigger celebrity is, or whatever it is that occupies their attention these days.
F.A. Hayek won the Nobel Prize for showing how central banks' manipulation of interest rates creates the boom-bust cycle with which we are sadly familiar. In 1932, in the depths of the Great Depression, he described the foolish policies being pursued in his day - and which are being proposed, just as destructively, in our own:
Instead of furthering the inevitable liquidation of the maladjustments brought about by the boom during the last three years, all conceivable means have been used to prevent that readjustment from taking place; and one of these means, which has been repeatedly tried though without success, from the earliest to the most recent stages of depression, has been this deliberate policy of credit expansion.
To combat the depression by a forced credit expansion is to attempt to cure the evil by the very means which brought it about; because we are suffering from a misdirection of production, we want to create further misdirection - a procedure that can only lead to a much more severe crisis as soon as the credit expansion comes to an end... It is probably to this experiment, together with the attempts to prevent liquidation once the crisis had come, that we owe the exceptional severity and duration of the depression.
The only thing we learn from history, I am afraid, is that we do not learn from history.
The very people who have spent the past several years assuring us that the economy is fundamentally sound, and who themselves foolishly cheered the extension of all these novel kinds of mortgages, are the ones who now claim to be the experts who will restore prosperity! Just how spectacularly wrong, how utterly without a clue, does someone have to be before his expert status is called into question? (Equally disturbing is how guillable the citizenry is to keep supporting these fools -Paul)
Oh, and did you notice that the bailout is now being called a 'rescue plan'? I guess 'bailout' wasn't sitting too well with the American people.
The very people who with somber faces tell us of their deep concern for the spread of democracy around the world are the ones most insistent on forcing a bill through Congress that the American people overwhelmingly oppose. The very fact that some of you seem to think you're supposed to have a voice in all this actually seems to annoy them.
I continue to urge you to contact your representatives and give them a piece of your mind. I myself am doing everything I can to promote the correct point of view on the crisis. Be sure also to educate yourselves on these subjects - the Campaign for Liberty blog is an excellent place to start. Read the posts, ask questions in the comment section, and learn.
H.G. Wells once said that civilization was in a race between education and catastrophe. Let us learn the truth and spread it as far and wide as our circumstances allow. For the truth is the greatest weapon we have.
In liberty,
Ron Paul
-
truthseeds
- captain of 100
- Posts: 924
- Location: Utah
- Contact:
Re: EXCUSES EXCUSES
I think you're on-base...with an exception. Ron is a born-again christian I believe and his children were all baptized in an Episcopalian church. Otherwise, brilliant! I usually don't get into that aspect of it when I send out emails, like a guilt trip for the LDS's (that they aren't supporting the right candidate). I make the point more subtly.
-
tick
- captain of 100
- Posts: 211
- Location: SL County, Utah
Re: EXCUSES EXCUSES
I think the email intro is wonderfully written. In fact, truthseeds, as a subscriber to your email list I think you have been too subtle on the "guilt" issue. I think it is a great way to get the message to people like your dad and such that may be missing the point you are trying to make. Some people think you are pushing a purely political agenda, when in reality there is a message of truth and education that is overlooked.
-
truthseeds
- captain of 100
- Posts: 924
- Location: Utah
- Contact:
Re: EXCUSES EXCUSES
That's true tick. I just worry too much about offending someone...turning them off to the message. So I've been somewhat cautious - perhaps too much so. That reminds me, tonight I was reading the Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi and it cross-references totick wrote:I think the email intro is wonderfully written. In fact, truthseeds, as a subscriber to your email list I think you have been too subtle on the "guilt" issue. I think it is a great way to get the message to people like your dad and such that may be missing the point you are trying to make. Some people think you are pushing a purely political agenda, when in reality there is a message of truth and education that is overlooked.
Isaiah 28:10
One friend in D.C. that is LDS and is on my email list and I had sent her a YouTube video link awhile back about why LDS should vote for Ron Paul, and she was very offended and later told me that had turned her off to him and me...which is her issue really. Then, more recently when I sent out info about the truth of the S. Ossetia / Georgia conflict, she replied and said that she disagreed with my view, which is fine, and I replied using some of Cleon Skousen's words and she thought I was manipulating her with LDS material and asked me to remove her from my email list. We have made up since and she asked to be put back on the list, but, you're right, I will start laying down the hammer more, like hiddentreasuredotws has done here. Very good, but, if I may nit-pick (and I don't like to be critical - but consider constructive criticism if you will) you might consider spell-checking those emails. And, by the way hiddentreasuredotws, I received your email earlier, I'm just considering how to respond.10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little
-
WYp8riot
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1609
- Location: WYOMING
Re: EXCUSES EXCUSES
LOL, my spelling can get horrible. Especially when I am typing on the computer. At times I have worried about offending as well. People can only swallow so much truth at once. Of course many are so cought up in party worship it would matter what truth flew in thier face they would get offended because their religion isnt "truth from where ever it may come" -J.S. but rather their religion is their political party and fear of association with the "extreme right" so they defend their religion not with truths and principles but labels and excuses.
Maybe I should have posted the petition ideas here for more input? Fell free to get other opinions and input.
Maybe I should have posted the petition ideas here for more input? Fell free to get other opinions and input.
