Is Capitalism Moral?

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freedomforall
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by freedomforall »

jwharton wrote:
freedomforall wrote:For everybody's understanding, The United States of America never was to be capitalistic, rather, it was to be a righteous republic.

If you live in a republic, then you live in a country with a leader freely and democratically elected by the people, as opposed to a dictatorship or monarchy.
http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/republic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Capitalism is an economic system featuring the private ownership of business wealth and the free and unfettered operation of trade markets.

Capital is usually understood to be money that is put into a business, accumulated by a business, or used in some way to produce more money. In a capitalist economy, the capital is owned by private individuals, as opposed to the government or state (as in socialism or communism). Another important aspect of capitalism is the "free market," where in theory natural competition always leads to innovation and price controls.
http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/ca ... Capitalism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You forgot the most important part.
The citizens themselves were to be the sovereigns.
And, those in power only had specifically enumerated powers.
All remaining powers were reserved to the states and to the people.
There isn't another political environment in which you can have capitalism.
This is why many wise latter day saints defend capitalism because you cannot have a free-market economy if the people in it are not also free.
And, they won't remain free unless the powers of governance are tied down and firmly tethered to the unalienable individual rights of sovereigns.

DEMOCRACY is the worst most unstable and quick to self destruct for of government there is, perhaps aside from COMMUNISM.
Well, in fact, the reason democracy is such is because it ultimately progresses to communism, aka, a dictatorship of elites.
If we had a righteous republic, there would be no need of distinction of who the sovereign are. It would be a given. Righteousness is be sovereign, absolute freedom, independent from the control or influence of other people.

freedomforall
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

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We are not a Democracy, we are a Constitutional Republic.

davedan
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by davedan »

I think we agree that Capitalism grants the capitalists (wealth possessor) unelected machiavellian political power.

Capitalism has nothing to do with America and nothing to do with The Gospel of Christ.

I am pro-free market. Capitalism is not free.

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marc
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by marc »

Still, the free market does not concern itself with the building up of Zion and establishing God's kingdom and thus isn't free. Until we are redeemed, we remain in bondage. The wages of sin is death. Those who labor for money (or anything other than Zion) perish. Thus anything less than what the Lord has decreed cometh of evil. The free market is an illusion.

jwharton
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by jwharton »

marc wrote:Still, the free market does not concern itself with the building up of Zion and establishing God's kingdom and thus isn't free. Until we are redeemed, we remain in bondage. The wages of sin is death. Those who labor for money (or anything other than Zion) perish. Thus anything less than what the Lord has decreed cometh of evil. The free market is an illusion.
I prefer to see the free market as an essential stepping stone so that working on Zion is a feasible endeavor.
Fighting for free markets is one and the same as fighting for the feasibility of establishing Zion.

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marc
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by marc »

Fighting? How did you bring fighting into this? Please elaborate.

jwharton
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by jwharton »

marc wrote:Fighting? How did you bring fighting into this? Please elaborate.
The Revolutionary War, for example.
People wanted economic freedom as much or more than they wanted religious freedom.
People wanted right and control of capital/property as an essential component of both.

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marc
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by marc »

Oh, gotcha. Thank you. Well, that's just what I'm talking about. People wanting "economic freedom" rather than Zion. They wanted "right" and "control" of property rather than obeying God's commandments. Everything they wanted has no redeeming value.

jwharton
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by jwharton »

marc wrote:Oh, gotcha. Thank you. Well, that's just what I'm talking about. People wanting "economic freedom" rather than Zion. They wanted "right" and "control" of property rather than obeying God's commandments. Everything they wanted has no redeeming value.
You are welcome.
The part I am struggling with here about what you are saying is...
First of all, you sound really jaded. So, for what it's worth, consider yourself hugged. :ymhug:

Don't you agree Zion is also supposed to liberate us economically as well as spiritually?

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Separatist
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by Separatist »

Marc, you keep thinking of the "market" as some sort of independent thing that acts and thinks on it's own. Of course the market doesn't concern itself with that. The market doesn't think. Individuals think. Individuals act. The market is simply the collection of individuals acting. You act. You are free to do what you will. If everyone had a change in heart tomorrow, and no longer wanted to watch professional sports, there would no longer be stadiums, merchandise etc. It would not be because the market independently decided that, but individuals decided that.

Money is not evil. It naturally arises as people co-operate and try to overcome the burdens of barter. God has opinions about proper money: honest weights and measures, dross etc.

Jesus told the rich young man to sell all his possessions and give to the poor. I presume he sold them for money (a handful of bible translations say money), and then gave the money to the poor. Jesus didn't condemn money. He also didn't tell the man to give his possessions directly to the poor. He first told him to sell them. The poor may not have had use for some of his stuff, but they could have used the money to then procure whatever they needed. Same in Acts 2. They sold their possessions for money and gave the "proceeds" to the poor, in other words money. As long as money is honest (appropriate weights/measures and not diluted "dross") is serves as a beautiful co-operating and co-ordinating function among acting individuals.

Money and prices are necessary for co-ordination of production and resources as math is necessary for the builder/engineer. Unless we live in the Garden of Eden, everything has relative scarcity. Prices signal this. It gives us the information of what resources are more abundant and readily available for use than others - how much "demand" there is for a product, say coffee, so the coffee bean farmer can continue to grow. If our tastes suddenly changed to tea instead of coffee, how would the growers of coffee beans know? Would all the individuals call all the coffee bean growers and tell them their preferences have changed? No. It would simply be reflected in a price. Without that signal, you'd have growers continuing to grow things that people no longer want. Waste ensues. This phenomenon was borne out in communist counties. Massive overproduction of some things, underproduction of others, all because they tried to get rid of the informational signals. Nobody really had a clue. They could try and they did, and it let to rudimentary/subsistence level existence. Just like a builder/engineer could try to build without math, but all he could achieve is rudimentary, "eye-balled" structures.

Remember, it's the love of money, not money itself that corrupts.

Jacob seemed to understand this, specifically mentioning those who have obtained a hope in Christ:
19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.
Imagine a market(the sum of individuals in Zion) who do this^^^^. It is not the free market which keeps this from happening. It's our heart.

Voluntary exchange is not bad either. Both parties are made better off or they wouldn't have voluntarily engaged in it in the first place.

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Darren
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by Darren »

America grew from several Germanic styled Commonwealths. In a Commonwealth ownership is by stewardship and stewardship (Socage) as an absolute title of ownership, of company (God's) property. Satan fools Capitalists into believing that ownership under his system (Fee Simple) is an absolute title of ownership, it is only an absolute title of occupancy, as long as you do it his way. When God offers for you to come into his company and feel free at any time to sit on his throne (company property), he means it. As for Satan, only he gets the high seat, and then he asks you, who did you murder to get a footstool near unto his seat?

Capitalism is the Blood and Sins of Satan's System.

The moral system is Socage, the basis of The Free Enterprise System, and the Millenniums Old System of Trust, that does actually run the world economy, that Satan does not want you to understand the simplicity of.

God Bless,
Darren
Last edited by Darren on September 17th, 2015, 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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marc
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by marc »

Please know that I am not jaded. I have nothing but love and happiness and peace in my heart. (By the way, yesterday was my 46th birthday and I received an outpouring of love). :)

That said, all my posts on this topic have been from a sober and charitable standpoint, as one who has had the light bulb turned on by the Lord and why I shared that parable in Matthew 20 yesterday.
jwharton wrote:Don't you agree Zion is also supposed to liberate us economically as well as spiritually?
You've got the right idea, but it is the Lord that liberates us because of our labors to obey His commandments. King Benjamin is the best example I can give of the "economy" that we ought to strive for. I'm in the middle of packing so I hope I can do my post justice. Separatist, I hope this helps. I do understand what you are trying to say. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. Then I'm leaving for Texas to visit my folks. :)

In the parable, the Lord "hired" people who were "idle" in the marketplace to "labor" in His vineyard. The laborer is worthy of his hire. I'm going to go fast here and hope you are familiar with my scriptural references as I go along. The people who went and did as the Lord said, were no longer idle. In other words, repentance is what makes us worthy of His wages, which is eternal life and that comes because in our repentance to do His will, we engage in His labor, which qualifies us for the work and thus are worthy of our "day's" wages. Otherwise, the wages of sin is death. Once the night cometh, no man can perform work.

Those who were hired in the morning complained of the unfairness because they did not understand the Lord's purpose. To better understand this parable, read the previous chapter (Matthew 19), especially v.16-30. So take the entire concept(s) in this post concerning "free market," "captialsim," etc and put them in a box and set it all side for the moment. The Lord has told us how to labor and for what to labor. If I were to try and explain how this might look, like, it would looks something like this where all our sowing and reaping would be with absolutely no thought of return (except wherein the Lord has decreed).

I plant many fruits and vegetables and grains. You do the same. Everybody else does the same. We are laboring for Zion--that all are equitable--no poor among us. We are beginning as one. One heart and one mind. We labor, we sweat, we toil, we reap. Then we all take the fruits and vegetables and grains and whatever we have produced (even clothes with all our spinning and toiling) and we go to "market." There we lay out all we have reaped, harvested and produced. We leave it there for others to come and take as they want.

I go and take two watermelons from your harvest, you go and take ten apples from my harvest, and everybody goes and takes according their needs and wants. The rest is stored for tomorrow. Everyone takes the seeds, continues to sow and cultivate and quicken the earth as Adam did, endeavoring to return it to Eden. In this way, man has claim on the earth for which he quickens. The Lord pours out the blessings of heaven more than man can receive and puts in store. Nobody takes more than they need, but always supply more and more because of the Lord's promise. The people have all things common. They labor always for everyone and not for themselves. They prosper exceedingly. There is no medium of exchange. There is no trading or bartering or taxing or any of the stakes or limits that man creates for commerce, exchange or whatever. Thus, in Zion, everyone works, but the lunch is free. Milk and honey flow freely.

In the parable, whether one begins in the early morning of the "day" of the earth is equally worthy of his hire to those the Lord calls "late" in the day. Being born of the Spirit comes from offering a broken heart and a contrite spirit, which makes one chosen. His penitent heart drives him to serve God with all his heart, might, mind and strength to labor in the vineyard that the Lord will lay up fruit (man) in store against the season. He is the unprofitable servant who's motivation is love only. It is this love that redeems him. And thus he is paid. He can never earn his way to heaven. He will always fall infinitely short. King Benjamin also has some things to say about this. But it is because Jesus Christ paid the price that all of this is even possible.

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Darren
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by Darren »

jwharton wrote: The Revolutionary War, for example.
People wanted economic freedom as much or more than they wanted religious freedom.
People wanted right and control of capital/property as an essential component of both.
They wanted the continuation of the freedoms as lived in their ancestor's Commonwealth.

Try this history lesson http://s98822910.onlinehome.us/thousand ... ur_law.pdf

God Bless,
Darren

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Separatist
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by Separatist »

marc wrote:That said, all my posts on this topic have been from a sober and charitable standpoint, as one who has had the light bulb turned on by the Lord and why I shared that parable in Matthew 20 yesterday.
Marc, don't assume this isn't the case with others.

I don't have a desire to work the field all day with a horse, nor does my wife have the desire to wash clothes all day by hand and spin. She did that in Guatemala and hated it. This is romantic illusion. People would have killed for the time saving devices we have today, which have come about because of capital accumulation.

It's interesting, the Amish still go to market to buy and sell.

We teach that non-church members will be living in the millennium. I wonder if Zion-ites will sneak out of Zion proper looking for better wares.

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marc
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by marc »

Apologies. I wasn't implying that you weren't. I was replying to jwharton (being jaded).

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Separatist
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by Separatist »

marc wrote:Apologies. I wasn't implying that you weren't. I was replying to jwharton (being jaded).
haha, jwharton is jaded. just kidding j. :)

have fun in TX. whereabouts will you be?

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marc
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by marc »

My hometown, El Paso. Visiting parents. :)

jwharton
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by jwharton »

Separatist wrote:
marc wrote:Apologies. I wasn't implying that you weren't. I was replying to jwharton (being jaded).
haha, jwharton is jaded. just kidding j. :)

have fun in TX. whereabouts will you be?
LOL! I can slip in that direction at times.

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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by digdug75 »

Capitalism is based on the individual and choices of groups of individuals. The paper money system is one of the problems. Paper money has a monopoly and people are not free to choose anything else. Socialist rules/laws created the paper money system. There 3 things I have found interferes with capitalism. Government tax incentives, subsidies, and socialist laws. You can still apply capitalism with the barter system.

There is a good video about paper money on youtube. If an individual lacks some morals then the use of that system becomes corrupt. There is opposition in all things. Socialism is also corruptible as with all other economic systems. Question is which provides the most freedom? I remember the war in heaven and reasons for the 1/3 of angels separating. The word "force" is what I had applied to Lucifer's plan freedom or agency is what I applied to Heavenly Fathers plan. Which economic system provides the least amount of force?

No offence to replier who brought up the Garden of Eden. As this is just my own point of view. The Garden of Eden example is irrelevant, because it was before the fall. I agree all is God's and given to us. We are given talents and many other things. We are here in my opinion to learn. The body and spirit are 2 separate things for a lack of a better word. We are to learn to control our bodies. Which include emotions, and actions. We receive a reward according to how much we have learned. This as far as I know includes what body of glory we receive.

I agree with the law of consecration. I believe it to be a celestial law. I also believe it to be a type of economic system. Which requires charity from my point of view.

Hugh Nibley was into socialist ideology as far as I understand. Correct me if I am wrong. Hugh Nibley had enabled people to question and encouraged people to research and learn for themselves as far as I understand.

We are to use prayer and the Gift of the Holy Ghost to receive testimonies regarding truth amongst other things. So we listen to leaders we pray to receive testimony of truth. Scripture warns us of knowledge of men or the world. We are to learn about as much truth as possible. we are to do as according to what we learn. All satan has to do is keep us from progressing, or using our talents.

Lastly we do not currently have a true form of capitalism. We have corporatism in my point of view which is the blending of both capitalism and socialism. An interesting subject to research would be Karl Marx immigration to the United States in 1851. A few other subjects to read would be Woodrow Wilson and laws passed by him and Franklin D. Roosevelt and laws passed by him. The communist part, aclu history of, and the Committee of the 48. The use of taxes by Government was one of the other worst things to happen to our country. In my humble opinion.

Still learning the History involved with Homesteading and ownership of property. A whole other topic in a sense, but still has economic effects. But my interest in this is property tax and foreign governments(aliens) being able to buy United States Property.

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skmo
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by skmo »

Is capitalism moral? Well ask yourself this: Is killing animals moral? Is driving a car moral? Is having sex moral? It all depends on the circumstances. Nothing wrong with legally and humanely killing an animal to provide meat for my family in moderation. Driving around late at night with a shotgun blowing away bunnies and leaving the, to rot just because it's fun to kill things is immoral. Nothing wrong with a husband and wife both willingly and lovingly sharing sexual intimacy privately with each other. Throwing your genitalia around indiscriminately with whomever is available is immoral.

Capitalism, when applied fairly and equitably is a good means of accounting and distribution of resources, among the only good forms on earth. It can be abused just like anything else in life, but it's also just a tool.

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Franco
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by Franco »

The free market allows people to make their own choices and be rewarded for making the right choices. God gave us the Constitution that allows for our liberty and freedom to make choices. That should settle the question.

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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

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marc wrote:Still, the free market does not concern itself with the building up of Zion and establishing God's kingdom and thus isn't free. Until we are redeemed, we remain in bondage. The wages of sin is death. Those who labor for money (or anything other than Zion) perish. Thus anything less than what the Lord has decreed cometh of evil. The free market is an illusion.
Unless I am mistaken as to what free market is, let's learn what can be achieved pertaining to buying and selling freely. If done properly is it then an illusion?

Helaman 6:7-8
7 And behold, there was peace in all the land, insomuch that the Nephites did go into whatsoever part of the land they would, whether among the Nephites or the Lamanites.
8 And it came to pass that the Lamanites did also go whithersoever they would, whether it were among the Lamanites or among the Nephites; and thus they did have free intercourse one with another, to buy and to sell, and to get gain, according to their desire.
9 And it came to pass that they became exceedingly rich, both the Lamanites and the Nephites; and they did have an exceeding plenty of gold, and of silver, and of all manner of precious metals, both in the land south and in the land north.

Now, now, keep clean thoughts everyone.

freedomforall
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by freedomforall »

Franco wrote:The free market allows people to make their own choices and be rewarded for making the right choices. God gave us the Constitution that allows for our liberty and freedom to make choices. That should settle the question.
And this is why Obama hates the Constitution. He is seeking New World Government control over all people.
He swore and oath to defend the Constitution, to abide by it...but the words I Do was a big fat lie.

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

What freedom of choice was there when Obamacare was shoved down the throats of the American people? Just who is it that pays for this service for the less fortunate?

I agree with you Franco, however, liberty and freedom nowadays is an illusion. The PC crowd is robbing people of liberty.
The government setting up free speech zones is robbing us of freedom.

Obama running loose and doing whatever he feels like is robbing us of the security we were supposed to have, protected and preserved by a good president, not a tyrant.

And this ------- is considering a third term. And he's got so many people buffaloed he may just slide right into a third term with no resistance whatsoever.

Yet if the patriotic portion of society with some reading skills would have read the Declaration of Independence as to what power the American people really have, our present POTUS would have been kicked out of office long before now.

Freedom and Liberty are now hiss and bywords.

This verse describes our condition:

Helaman 5:2
2 For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted.

History repeating itself, again.

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marc
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by marc »

freedomforall wrote:
marc wrote:Still, the free market does not concern itself with the building up of Zion and establishing God's kingdom and thus isn't free. Until we are redeemed, we remain in bondage. The wages of sin is death. Those who labor for money (or anything other than Zion) perish. Thus anything less than what the Lord has decreed cometh of evil. The free market is an illusion.
Unless I am mistaken as to what free market is, let's learn what can be achieved pertaining to buying and selling freely. If done properly is it then an illusion?

Helaman 6:7-8
7 And behold, there was peace in all the land, insomuch that the Nephites did go into whatsoever part of the land they would, whether among the Nephites or the Lamanites.
8 And it came to pass that the Lamanites did also go whithersoever they would, whether it were among the Lamanites or among the Nephites; and thus they did have free intercourse one with another, to buy and to sell, and to get gain, according to their desire.
9 And it came to pass that they became exceedingly rich, both the Lamanites and the Nephites; and they did have an exceeding plenty of gold, and of silver, and of all manner of precious metals, both in the land south and in the land north.

Now, now, keep clean thoughts everyone.
Great! They were all rich. Where did that lead them? Why were their lands destroyed prior to Christ's visit? The bottom line is the formula they followed was not God's.

freedomforall
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Re: Is Capitalism Moral?

Post by freedomforall »

marc wrote:
freedomforall wrote:
marc wrote:Still, the free market does not concern itself with the building up of Zion and establishing God's kingdom and thus isn't free. Until we are redeemed, we remain in bondage. The wages of sin is death. Those who labor for money (or anything other than Zion) perish. Thus anything less than what the Lord has decreed cometh of evil. The free market is an illusion.
Unless I am mistaken as to what free market is, let's learn what can be achieved pertaining to buying and selling freely. If done properly is it then an illusion?

Helaman 6:7-8
7 And behold, there was peace in all the land, insomuch that the Nephites did go into whatsoever part of the land they would, whether among the Nephites or the Lamanites.
8 And it came to pass that the Lamanites did also go whithersoever they would, whether it were among the Lamanites or among the Nephites; and thus they did have free intercourse one with another, to buy and to sell, and to get gain, according to their desire.
9 And it came to pass that they became exceedingly rich, both the Lamanites and the Nephites; and they did have an exceeding plenty of gold, and of silver, and of all manner of precious metals, both in the land south and in the land north.

Now, now, keep clean thoughts everyone.
Great! They were all rich. Where did that lead them? Why were their lands destroyed prior to Christ's visit? The bottom line is the formula they followed was not God's.
17 Think of your brethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your substance, that they may be rich like unto you.
18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.
19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

Many of us, however, do not remember the charity portion of the equation. But this doe not mean it isn't God's formula.

If we do not act charitable, then we are told this:

Alma 39:14
14 Seek not after riches nor the vain things of this world; for behold, you cannot carry them with you.

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