Is Capitalism Moral?

[Separatist]

[marc]

You can buy anything in this world with money. Capitalism is a function of Babylon. God gave us the earth and to be stewards over it. You can plant a fruit tree and and turn it into an orchard. We could turn the world into Eden. We have turned it into a den of thieves instead. God would give us everything. All that God gives are gifts. We take them and use them, though not with judgment, but by excess and extortion.

[Serragon]

Capitalism is not about money. It is simply an environment where you are free to exchange things with others based upon your own values. Because it is based upon freedom, it is a moral system.

Some people are motivated by greed and therefore do immoral things. Others are motivated by love, charity, etc and do many moral things. Both are part of capitalism.

I hear many people say that capitalism is based on greed which is nonsense. Greed is just one of many possible factors which motivate people to act. Actions based upon love and charity are just as much a part of capitalism as is greed.

[marc]

Capitalism

noun-an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

[Separatist]

Capitalism, the market, is simply the sum of free individuals choices.

[Serragon]

Capitalism

noun-an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

That is probably one of the worst definitions of a free market system I have ever seen. It implies that "trade and industry" are the property of a country and that decisions can only be made for profit.

Don't believe everything you look up on the internet.

[marc]

Yes, free individual choices...we must have agency in the world.

Capitalism is an economic system in which trade, industry, and the means of production are largely or entirely privately owned and operated for profit. Central characteristics of capitalism include private property, capital accumulation, wage labour and, in some situations, fully competitive markets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Industry. Control. Private ownership. Profit. Capital accumulation.

What is moral about Babylon? Why is it more desirable than Zion where everything is a gift? We must all work, but the food is free.

[Serragon]

Again, I disagree with the definition. I suspect it was written by a socialist (as most editors on wikipedia are).

Zion can exist in a free market system because we are free to choose it. Zion is a free market system where everyone chooses to live in a communal way.

Zion cannot exist in a socialist system because the choices are made for you. Forced communal living is not zion.

[Serragon]

We must all work, but the food is free.

If you MUST work, then the food is not FREE.

[Sirocco]

Again, I disagree with the definition. I suspect it was written by a socialist (as most editors on wikipedia are).

Zion can exist in a free market system because we are free to choose it. Zion is a free market system where everyone chooses to live in a communal way.

Zion cannot exist in a socialist system because the choices are made for you. Forced communal living is not zion.

If paradise exists why would I have to work and face the fear of poverty and starvation.
That's not paradise.

[marc]

So I will refer to the OP's definition of capitalism then. It is "your" lawn. I use "my" mower to mow it in exchange for money or whatever. We are back to "ownership" and "property." What I am trying to say is that it is all God's. The earth, the grass, even your very tabernacle of flesh is not your own. And it will either be redeemed or destroyed at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Adam and Eve were given the garden of Eden to dress it and to enjoy it without money and without price. Their only labor was to dress it and enjoy it. In Zion, we will be able to "buy" milk and honey without money and without price. In other words, they are all gifts. I will refer you to Hugh Nibley's Approaching Zion. Have a nice day.

[Separatist]

Yes, free individual choices...we must have agency in the world.

Capitalism is an economic system in which trade, industry, and the means of production are largely or entirely privately owned and operated for profit. Central characteristics of capitalism include private property, capital accumulation, wage labour and, in some situations, fully competitive markets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Industry. Control. Private ownership. Profit. Capital accumulation.

What is moral about Babylon? Why is it more desirable than Zion where everything is a gift? We must all work, but the food is free.

Nothing wrong with industry. Nothing wrong with private control (stewardship), nothing wrong with bringing in more than your expenses. Nothing wrong with capital accumulation. We seem to have a romantic pull to some pre-industrial age where life was miserable and most starved. It was freedom, industry and capital accumulation that moved us out of a life that was "nasty, brutish and short". In the 19th centruy, Frederic Bastiat commented in amazement that through no central plan or control, but free individuals working and co-operating, that "paris was fed" on a daily basis. This was a new phenomenon.

Money isn't immoral, so long that it is honest money, not manipulated by the powers that be.

Prices aren't immoral. They are simply signals of scarcity. The sum total of voluntary action. They are also essential to calculation.

[Separatist]

Adam and Eve were given the garden of Eden to dress it and to enjoy it without money and without price. Their only labor was to dress it and enjoy it. In Zion, we will be able to "buy" milk and honey without money and without price. In other words, they are all gifts. I will refer you to Hugh Nibley's Approaching Zion. Have a nice day.

The garden of eden represents a different world, one of no scarcity. Can Zion be acheived in this world of scarcity?

[jwharton]

Capitalism is the most moral of all systems the world has used thus far.
The reason is because it does the most to respect individual agency.
And, its flaws are entirely cured if those participating in it also live God's laws.
For example, people should not use their surplus wealth to obtain usury, in any form.
So, if you have extra money, instead of using it to leverage somehow and make money from money, you consecrate it.
And, the process of consecrating it means that you allow your surplus wealth to be used to liberate the poor instead of grinding upon them.
If you have Capitalism coupled with Consecration you will have the economic Millennial Golden Age prophesied of.

However, the Gentiles rejected Consecration because they prefer to make money with money so they can be idle.
People would rather have a system of Stocks and Bonds than a United Order of Consecration.
Where do most LDS who are wealthy have their surplus wealth distributed out to?
Where do our leaders admonish to invest our money? In short, they say "stay institutional".
Therefore, the Gentiles have reaped the stockade and are in bondage.

[marc]

So your topical question was rhetorical then? And I am not to trust any internet reference but yours and the video you posted? You don't need to answer. I respect your views and thank you for sharing them. I'll move on now.

Peace and love.

[marc]

Capitalism is the most moral of all systems the world has used thus far.
The reason is because it does the most to respect individual agency.
And, its flaws are entirely cured if those participating in it also live God's laws.
For example, people should not use their surplus wealth to obtain usury, in any form.
So, if you have extra money, instead of using it to leverage somehow and make money from money, you consecrate it.
And, the process of consecrating it means that you allow your surplus wealth to be used to liberate the poor instead of grinding upon them.
If you have Capitalism coupled with Consecration you will have the economic Millennial Golden Age prophesied of.

However, the Gentiles rejected Consecration because they prefer to make money with money so they can be idle.
People would rather have a system of Stocks and Bonds than a United Order of Consecration.
Where do most LDS who are wealthy have their surplus wealth distributed out to?
Where do our leaders admonish to invest our money? In short, they say "stay institutional".
Therefore, the Gentiles have reaped the stockade and are in bondage.

[marc]

The garden of eden represents a different world, one of no scarcity. Can Zion be acheived in this world of scarcity?

My final post. Yes! It can! The Lord has shown us how in the book of Mormon and also the D&C. The early saints were in a position that Zion could be redeemed, but they polluted their inheritance instead.

[Separatist]

Capitalism is simply freedom in the economic sphere. Which means you can participate or not participate to your hearts content. You can voluntarily band together with other like-minded individuals and form community, co-operatives etc, communal living whatever.

[Separatist]

The garden of eden represents a different world, one of no scarcity. Can Zion be acheived in this world of scarcity?

My final post. Yes! It can! The Lord has showed us how in the book of Mormon and also the D&C. The early saints were in a position that Zion could be redeemed, but they polluted their inheritance instead.

Whose fault was that? Capitalism's? The market? Imagine a people working, producing, exchanging, giving...
Having all things common seems to fit just fine within the framework.

[SmallFarm]

Capitalism at best is justified evil. As Marc mentioned we don't own anything (even our own bodies) and are only stewards of those things. God has told us that there is no justification for withholding our substance from one another as long as we have plenty, which most truly do. How does that fit in with a money economy based system such as capitalism where we withhold our goods instead of lifting each other up?

[Separatist]

Capitalism is not keeping anybody from giving their money away.

[jwharton]

Capitalism at best is justified evil. As Marc mentioned we don't own anything (even our own bodies) and are only stewards of those things. God has told us that there is no justification for withholding our substance from one another as long as we have plenty, which most truly do. How does that fit in with a money economy based system such as capitalism where we withhold our goods instead of lifting each other up?

We are stewards, which is what I mean when I indicate "ownership" or "possession".
I acknowledge this is an important distinction to make because it sets the proper tone.

[dlbww]

Again, I disagree with the definition. I suspect it was written by a socialist (as most editors on wikipedia are).

Zion can exist in a free market system because we are free to choose it. Zion is a free market system where everyone chooses to live in a communal way.

Zion cannot exist in a socialist system because the choices are made for you. Forced communal living is not zion.

If we are agents unto ourselves then we must be left unfettered to do as we please, "and our eternal reward will be according to our choosing". It must be this way:

26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;
28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.
29 But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned. (D&C 58)

Perhaps God put greed in man so there would be progress on the Earth.

[Original_Intent]

You can buy anything in this world with money. Capitalism is a function of Babylon. God gave us the earth and to be stewards over it. You can plant a fruit tree and and turn it into an orchard. We could turn the world into Eden. We have turned it into a den of thieves instead. God would give us everything. All that God gives are gifts. We take them and use them, though not with judgment, but by excess and extortion.

Free Market capitalism is not a function of Babylon.
Corporate capitalism, crony capitalism or a more accurate term, Fascism is.

[Robin Hood]

Capitalism is evil and is a Babylonian economic system which requires losers and winners.
It requires the exploitation of resources, including people, for personal gain.
It is wicked and will not exist, in any form, in Zion.