SOP: Just War and Christianity

[SPARTACUS]

PURPOSE

SOP stands for statement of position.

This post will establish the principles of Just War and Christianity. The second post in this topic is the text as compiled by all contributors to this topic. The author of this declaration is not the instigator of this post but the combined effort of all contributors to this post. The third post in this topic relates the issues or needed sections. The forth post in this topic will be reserved for unforeseen additions. This will aide new contributors in their efforts to deal with the extensive length this post will have.

Try to stay on topic, save irrelevant comments to other areas of the forum.

The purpose of this topic is to establish a summarized version of scripture and prophets regarding what constitutes Just War. This summary will then be distributed to members of the Church and to the rest of the world in an effort to change people's minds [their vote] to support peace, liberty, and happiness.

[SPARTACUS]

STATEMENT OF POSITION

[SPARTACUS]

THE ISSUES

1. What do the scriptures state regarding war and when war is just?
2. What have modern prophets said regarding war and when war is just?
3. What does the Constitution say regarding war and when war is just?
4. What does Natural Law say regarding war and when war is just?
5. Can a person voluntarily join the military today and be justified?
6. What effects has the military industrial complex had on our nations foreign policy?
7. Is the current foreign policy of the United States in keeping with the teachings of Jesus Christ?
8. Is your current view of the United States' involvement in current wars in keeping with the teachings of Jesus Christ?
9. What would it take to persuade people to change their minds and stop supporting unjust war?

Think of these issues as you find evidence.

[SPARTACUS]

reserved

[jbalm]

From the April 1942 General Conference Report (David O. McKay):

Tolstoy, in his Christianity and Patriotism, says:

A Christian state, to be consistent, ought, on entering upon a war, not merely to remove the crosses from the churches, to turn the churches themselves into buildings for other purposes, to give the clergy other duties, and above all, to prohibit the gospel-but ought to renounce every precept of morality which follows from the Christian law.

Notwithstanding all this, I still say that there are conditions when entrance into war is justifiable, and when a Christian nation may, without violation of principles, take up arms against an opposing force.

Such a condition, however, is not a real or fancied insult given by one nation to another. When this occurs proper reparation may be made by mutual understanding, apology, or by arbitration.

Neither is there justifiable cause found in a desire or even a need for territorial expansion. The taking of territory implies the subjugation of the weak by the strong-the application of the jungle law.

Nor is war justified in an attempt to enforce a new order of government, or even to impel others to a particular form of worship, however better the government or eternally true the principles of the enforced religion may be.

There are, however, two conditions which may justify a truly Christian man to enter-mind you, I say enter, not begin-a war: ( 1 ) An attempt to dominate and to deprive another of his free agency, and, ( 2 ) Loyalty to his country. Possibly there is a third, viz., Defense of a weak nation that is being unjustly crushed by a strong, ruthless one.

Whole talk here:

http://search.ldslibrary.com/article/view/193205

[SPARTACUS]

There are, however, two conditions which may justify a truly Christian man to enter-mind you, I say enter, not begin-a war: ( 1 ) An attempt to dominate and to deprive another of his free agency, and, ( 2 ) Loyalty to his country. Possibly there is a third, viz., Defense of a weak nation that is being unjustly crushed by a strong, ruthless one.

Excellent post. I have read that before but did not realize the specific part you quoted was written by Tolstoy. I thought it was all from David O. McKay.

The possible third in my mind creates a lot of gray area. Neocons and the military industrial complex would seem to be able to prey on this idea (and have) to enter the United States into many unjust wars. Given the current situation in Georgia, the reporting of the issues would seem to indicate a Russian aggressor. Closer examination of the facts would reveal it was Georgia who instigated the confrontation.

Based on the facts, the third condition mentioned does not apply, and there is no reason for the United States to enter, and Russia is justified in this instance in defending the South Ossetians (under the third condition) from Georgian aggression.

Would the United States have been justified (under the 3rd condition) in entering WW2 before attack to save the Jewish population from Nazi aggression? Do you see any problems with the third condition?

[ROB GIBBSEN]

THE ISSUES

1. What do the scriptures state regarding war and when war is just?

Now it came to pass that while Amalickiah had thus been obtaining power by fraud and deceit, Moroni, on the other hand, had been preparing the minds of the people to be faithful unto the Lord their God.
Yea, he had been strengthening the armies of the Nephites, and erecting small forts, or places of resort; throwing up banks of earth round about to enclose his armies, and also building walls of stone to encircle them about, round about their cities and the borders of their lands; yea, all round about the land.
And in their weakest fortifications he did place the greater number of men; and thus he did fortify and strengthen the land which was possessed by the Nephites.
And thus he was preparing to support their liberty, their lands, their wives, and their children, and their peace, and that they might live unto the Lord their God, and that they might maintain that which was called by their enemies the cause of Christians.
And Moroni was a strong and a mighty man; he was a man of a perfect understanding; yea, a man that did not delight in bloodshed; a man whose soul did joy in the liberty and the freedom of his country, and his brethren from bondage and slavery;
Yea, a man whose heart did swell with thanksgiving to his God, for the many privileges and blessings which he bestowed upon his people; a man who did labor exceedingly for the welfare and safety of his people.
Yea, and he was a man who was firm in the faith of Christ, and he had sworn with an oath to defend his people, his rights, and his country, and his religion, even to the loss of his blood.
Now the Nephites were taught to defend themselves against their enemies, even to the shedding of blood if it were necessary; yea, and they were also taught never to give an offense, yea, and never to raise the sword except it were against an enemy, except it were to preserve their lives.
And this was their faith, that by so doing God would prosper them in the land, or in other words, if they were faithful in keeping the commandments of God that he would prosper them in the land; yea, warn them to flee, or to prepare for war, according to their danger;
And also, that God would make it known unto them whither they should go to defend themselves against their enemies, and by so doing, the Lord would deliver them; and this was the faith of Moroni, and his heart did glory in it; not in the shedding of blood but in doing good, in preserving his people, yea, in keeping the commandments of God, yea, and resisting iniquity.
(Alma 48:7-16)

[ROB GIBBSEN]

THE ISSUES

1. What do the scriptures state regarding war and when war is just?

Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace, and seek diligently to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers, and the hearts of the fathers to the children;
(D&C 98:16)

[SPARTACUS]

THE ISSUES

1. What do the scriptures state regarding war and when war is just?

Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace, and seek diligently to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers, and the hearts of the fathers to the children;
(D&C 98:16)

Excellent scripture. Note how proclaiming peace is best done by pointing people to the temple of God. The point is further given by Isaiah:

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us ago up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isaiah 2:3,4

In the Temple, the House of the Lord, the children of God learn things that are supposed to make them a peaceful people.

[jbalm]

Do you see any problems with the third condition?

It is certainly the one most easily abused. Being that it was given as a "possible" condition, I would think it would have to be a pretty clear cut case of unjust aggression for that condition to be satisfied.

And of course, to apply the conditions cited, there must be the presumption that we actually know the truth of the matter at hand.

[AussieOi]

THE ISSUES

1. What do the scriptures state regarding war and when war is just?

Now it came to pass that while Amalickiah had thus been obtaining power by fraud and deceit, Moroni, on the other hand, had been preparing the minds of the people to be faithful unto the Lord their God.
Yea, he had been strengthening the armies of the Nephites, and erecting small forts, or places of resort; throwing up banks of earth round about to enclose his armies, and also building walls of stone to encircle them about, round about their cities and the borders of their lands; yea, all round about the land.
And in their weakest fortifications he did place the greater number of men; and thus he did fortify and strengthen the land which was possessed by the Nephites.
And thus he was preparing to support their liberty, their lands, their wives, and their children, and their peace, and that they might live unto the Lord their God, and that they might maintain that which was called by their enemies the cause of Christians.
And Moroni was a strong and a mighty man; he was a man of a perfect understanding; yea, a man that did not delight in bloodshed; a man whose soul did joy in the liberty and the freedom of his country, and his brethren from bondage and slavery;
Yea, a man whose heart did swell with thanksgiving to his God, for the many privileges and blessings which he bestowed upon his people; a man who did labor exceedingly for the welfare and safety of his people.
Yea, and he was a man who was firm in the faith of Christ, and he had sworn with an oath to defend his people, his rights, and his country, and his religion, even to the loss of his blood.
Now the Nephites were taught to defend themselves against their enemies, even to the shedding of blood if it were necessary; yea, and they were also taught never to give an offense, yea, and never to raise the sword except it were against an enemy, except it were to preserve their lives.
And this was their faith, that by so doing God would prosper them in the land, or in other words, if they were faithful in keeping the commandments of God that he would prosper them in the land; yea, warn them to flee, or to prepare for war, according to their danger;
And also, that God would make it known unto them whither they should go to defend themselves against their enemies, and by so doing, the Lord would deliver them; and this was the faith of Moroni, and his heart did glory in it; not in the shedding of blood but in doing good, in preserving his people, yea, in keeping the commandments of God, yea, and resisting iniquity.
(Alma 48:7-16)

yes. wonderful comment from a prophet about what another great man believed and what the people also believed, and did.

however, this is a historical record, rather than a ":thus saith the lord. although i am sure it is nonetheless an affirmation of truth.

but does it explain "What do the scriptures state regarding war and when war is just". No, i would suggest it does not explain justification, rather this is actions and motivations and believe. Captain moroni we do not know was a prophet nor his flaws (not likely to be many certainly less than mine)

i would suggest the 10 commandments and D&C 98: 23 on is a more complete understanding of what the lord said to those who lived what we have as scripture

[AussieOi]

1. What do the scriptures state regarding war and when war is just?

D&C98. and when the nephites went up into the other people lands, they lost.


2. What have modern prophets said regarding war and when war is just?

very very little beyond we are a people of peace. if the lord doesn't make a call on them then they are giving opinion. this is serious stuff.

of late one has invoked captain moroni in comment as justification which has led to much comment but this is his personal opinion.

clearly the lord is not speaking to him on this matter.



3. What does the Constitution say regarding war and when war is just?

does it matter? i mean no one pays attention to it anymore.




4. What does Natural Law say regarding war and when war is just?


is that always going to be objective?

Friday, October 28, 2005
A discussion on Just War, natural law, wartime stress, 'social sin' and more in the wake of alleged prisoner abuses by U.S. military. http://www.the-tidings.com/2005/1028/torture.htm




5. Can a person voluntarily join the military today and be justified?

yes i believe so. but not the US military nor the military of a foreign soveriegn.
but i do not believe in standing armies. i ascribe the the D&C98 defence theorem, and also the anti-nephi lehi philosophy that it is better to die than kill (in the context of larger battles where the lord is fighting with and for you)


6. What effects has the military industrial complex had on our nations foreign policy?

they run it and they own it
just type in
Carlyle
blackstone
hallibrton
KKR


Smedley Darlington Butler (July 30, 1881 – June 21, 1940), nicknamed "The Fighting Quaker" and "Old Gimlet Eye", was a Major General in the U.S. Marine Corps and, at the time of his death, the most decorated Marine in U.S. history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler
"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."[21]

War Is a Racket is the title of two works, a speech and a booklet, by former U.S. Marine Major General Smedley Darlington Butler, one of only 19 people to be twice awarded the Medal of Honor, in which Butler frankly discusses from his experience as a career miliary officer how business interests have commercially benefited from warfare.

After he retired from the Marine Corps, Gen. Butler made a nationwide tour in the early 1930's giving his speech "War is a Racket". [1] The speech was so well received that he wrote a longer version as a small book with the same title that was published in 1935 by Round Table Press, Inc., New York. The booklet was also condensed in Reader's Digest as a book supplement which helped popularize his message. In an introduction to the Reader's Digest version, Lowell Thomas, the "as told to" author of Butler's oral autobiographical adventures[2], praised Butler's "...moral as well as physical courage... "


7. Is the current foreign policy of the United States in keeping with the teachings of Jesus Christ?

no, neither the US constitution




8. Is your current view of the United States' involvement in current wars in keeping with the teachings of Jesus Christ?

absolutely not. but has it ever? and was it ever going to?




9. What would it take to persuade people to change their minds and stop supporting unjust war?

mankind to embrace and live the GOSPEL of jesus christ. the USA is apparently a christian nation, they sing hymns on congress and the boys flying the apache gunships in fallujah are bible toting kids and even returned missionaries. clearly the MESSAGE isn't getting through. satan rules our world




10.Think of these issues as you find evidence.

there is no evidence. reality is warped

[jbalm]

Just for kicks, here is the Catholic "Just War Doctrine" It is their interpretation of the Biblical perspective on war.

The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

* the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
* all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
* there must be serious prospects of success;
* the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.