The similarity of Communism and The republic

[Moses]

So much is made of democracy, being akin to socialism and by extension to Communism.

Well in modern socialism you have elections, you also have the right to private property.

Dispelling the lie that socialism desires to deprive us of private property.

Now, what have Communism in common with Republicanism?

In Communism the masses do not vote for their leaders. in republicanism the masses do not vote directly for their leaders.

The founding Fathers thought the masses not fit to vote for their leaders.

Not a lot of difference in the final analysis.

[ldsff]

name one thing in the USA that I still have the right to private property over.

You are so right!!! We are taxed on the very air we breathe!!!!!!!!!!

[Moses]

One thing? I can name much more than that.

The pants you wear? Or don’t you wear pants:)
Do you own your bed?
Do you own your home?
Did anyone take your lunch from you today?

But hey isn’t this ridiculous. Of course you have private property.

Maybe we ought to be talking about being taxed on our property, that’s a different subject.

We could go back to the days where we had no infrastructure to speak of, and where society had not yet developed to the extent where we weren't interdependent due to the streamlining of life. Maybe where there was no payback, tax seems a bit harsh. But I put it to you that we get much more back from our taxes per capita, than what each individual puts in.

Personally I like the way things are. I enjoy a lovely park near where I live, that I do not own, yet I have the ability to walk in and enjoy the flowers and scenery that I would never afford if I had to buy my own park.

I also live near the cliffs and we have an albatross sanctuary. Really beautiful. It’s maintained by the city council. Imagine that if there were no taxes, and no maintenance of the area we live in, what would happen?

Every day no matter where I go there is litter, someone who may not have work if the taxes did not pay for his job cleans the litter that is everywhere that no one wants to pick up. Are his wages theft from the taxpayer? No, as the worker is doing something for the community. The labourer is worthy of his hire.

[lundbaek]

It is a misrepresentation of our constitutional republic to say that "in republicanism the masses do not vote directly for their leaders." In our constitutional republic we do not vote directly for the president and VP, but we do vote directly for our senators (since 1915), our congressional representatives, and our individual state legislators and governors, county sheriffs, and so on.

As for the president being a leader, Americans have unwittingly permitted presidents to assume powers not granted them in Article II of the US Constitution, but it was not originally intended that presidents have complete leadership power.

[shadow]

But hey isn’t this ridiculous. Of course you have private property.

But we don't have private property rights if one is taxed on it. It becomes a privilege. Same deal with my time, talents and labor (labour). There is a difference between a right and a privilege. Once that difference is understood you can move forward, until then you're stuck with admiring socialism and democracy.

[ChelC]

Moses, how is your mom? Haven't heard much from you in a long time.

To topic - We've tried many forms of government. We know what doesn't work. Socialism doesn't work. Anytime the majority can deprive one man of his property it has violated his property rights. That stated, are we talking about the system in the USA as it is today, or how it is supposed to be? We are socialists now. We are not supposed to be that way. What makes our system work isn't entirely based on the logistics. Republicanism aside, we have a Constitution which was inspired. That point cannot be argued by LDSs. Now, combining an inspired Constitution with a fair balanced means of enforcing it and a populace that is generally good = eureka. If one of those elements is off = chaos.

I think you would argue that socialism (by your definition) is not an inferior means of accomplishing the same if it is combined with the same factors. By your definition and assuming that the other factors were in place I can't argue a lot except if a man is compelled to give by force.

Perfect men don't need government, but they do need laws. We live in an imperfect world and the degree of that determines how well our systems work. To hopefully avoid a repeat of previous conversations I will concede that it is possible that socialism works better in an evil world. Blessings are predicated upon obedience, and the creeping of socialism is an indicator of that.

A telestial world that is mostly full of good can thrive upon the system set up by the inspired founders of the USA. A telestial world that cannot self govern may only be able to survive with a socialistic government. That socialism may bring a degree of order to the world until further judgements come but it will only do so at a cost of personal liberty. I will never give my personal liberties away no matter the chaos that creates. I can only pray for repentance and/or judgements to come speedily.

[Moses]

Hi And thanks for enquiring after my Mum.
Mum is doing very well, and celebrated her 90th Birthday in July.

if we were better people then we probably would not work ourselves to a standstill by heaping up treasures on earth that we might never use.

The human condition has been described like this.

This is a summary of the human race.

The whole human race is in a boat and in that boat there is a loaf of bread.

You can do three things with that loaf of bread.. one, you can sell it, that way the rich get the whole loaf, you can fight for it, this way the strong will get the whole loaf. or you can share it, so that everyone gets some.

Which one do we want?

[ChelC]

If it's my bread I share it. Everyone I know personally would make the same decision. I don't think that makes us socialists though.

[shadow]

The person who made the bread should decide, I mean, has the right to decide what to do with his bread.
"You spin me right round baby right round like a record baby right round round round........" Sorry, sometimes I get these silly tunes from the 80's stuck in my head.

[Moses]

The Earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof.
I do not own anything.

President Kimball once was on a ranch with a proud man who was showing off. and Pres said something like, "what are you going to do with your ranch when you die?"

We are all tenants, we cannot really own anything in fact the word ownership is an oxymoron. cant own anything that we cant take with us.Dont agree? try taking any possession to heaven with you when you die. Point proven?The word I was looking for is Steward.

The bread represents the bottom line of life. Who gave the baker the ingredients? who gave him the money to buy it, who gave him the ability to earn the money.

I like your song. round and round. haah

Your friend

Moses

[p51-mustang]

Moses,

Yyou can argue whatever you want. Just please dont tell me socialism is ok. We know that is satan's plan. I had a brother tell me Hillary Care was ok since we are all sharing. What a lack of understanding and very sad given the brethren have made it clear over the years that socialism is stealing.

[ChelC]

Moses - You are correct that all belongs to the Lord. You are correct that we are stewards of the land. Still, I'm afraid you are confusing the higher principle of consecration with the improper system of socialism. Once again, the issue comes down to force. Socialism may work relatively well as a preventative measure for chaos in a wicked world. It is not the plan of the Lord.

It sucks that the consequences of freedom lead some people to make terrible mistakes and to be selfish. That selfishness is a descent to wickedness, which leads others to covet his riches = further descent into wickedness. As this happens more and more we become socialist. My personal view is because it is what we deserve. The blessings of peace are equivalent to our righteousness.

Here are some levels:

Celestial people, no wickedness = consecration, stewards, not ownership, no force, self government for all.
Telestial people who are largely good = a system of checks and balances, orderly punishment for the wicked, self government for most. Read - the system created by our founders.
Telestial people who are a mixed bag of good and evil = a system of redistribution to avert pure chaos, punishment for the wicked, very little self government. Read - socialism
Telestial people who are wicked = collection of property, enslavement, punishment for any who seek liberty. Read - communism
Telestial people who are wicked, with a rising of good = chaos. Read - anarchy.
Increasing good among the oppressed = revolution

I don't think we can compare the systems, they relate directly to what we are righteous enough to have.

[prew]

The topic that started this tread:
I agree with Lundbaek and others that voiced the opinion: Is socialism compared with current form of government or the government envisioned by the founding fathers of USA?
Socialism compared with current practiced form of government: In my opinion there is little difference.
Socialism compared with government envisioned by founding fathers: In my opinion there is huge differences, which many have already stated.

I glanced at what I have written, and sigh... We are in a sad state of affairs.

While I was reading this thread, 2 Nephi chapter 2 came to mind.
14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.
15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.
16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

Then came to mind a story about the first colonies here in the New World. One colony practiced socialism, yet the colony was not thriving, but dieing. It turns out when the law of sharing in common was removed, the colony thrived.
What happened was that man (and woman) tended to like to take the easy path. So when it was seen that someone was not working yet received food and shelter and clothes, then all the others wanted that life. Soon food ran out, clothes wore out and shelters fell in disrepair. But when the socialistic law was removed. Each person faired for his own welfare and had some surplus to sell. Then did the colony thrived.

So in this day and age, I see people choosing the easy way too. They work less so that their wage is low to qualify for the dole system (ex. food stamps, Medicare, SS, etc.). Even thought they could do much more.

Oh well, trying to add my opinion.

[Darren]

Satan will introduce one lie into ninety-nine truths to deceive us.

Modern Communism has its beginnings in the Ancient Germanic Christian Church.

Trace back the Modern Communist Movement to where it departs from that true Church and discover the lie that was introduced in the Middle Ages to create Satan’s deception and you will have the specific thing that delineates Modern Communism from The United Order.

The Path for the United Order runs back through the LDS Church, from the United Orders of Utah, to the United Orders of Nauvoo infusing the Guild System. Then back through Joseph Smith’s culture of the Puritans and their United Order way to run New England for over 200 years. Then the United Order runs back through the amazing way to run London and other Germanic Tenships, Shires and Commonwealths, that were the continuation of the Hanseatic League Commonwealth.

The Hanseatic League Commonwealth and it’s guilds are where Georg Hegel based his research on commune life.

This then is where the lie is introduced. Hegel’s research as interpreted by Karl Marx targeted Christianity as the culprit that destroyed the guilds of Northern Europe. When actually it was the Catholic Church that had systematically destroyed the guilds of the true Christian Germanic Church.

Karl Marx’s synthesis of the false culture with the true culture, cooked up a Humanist Church to replace the true Germanic Church set up by Christ, to run the rebirth of modern guild life based on that humanist religion’s control of money through central banking.

Atheism and its politicians to run United Orders, that is all Modern Communism is.

God Bless,
Darren

[SPARTACUS]

I think this concept can be illuminated by the following example from Spock.

In Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, Spock said:

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one."

Nearly everyone will agree with the end result of this statement, however, how it is achieved, [the means] results in radically different answers.

The socialist will attempt to achieve the needs of the many through coercion or brute force.

The individual will attempt to achieve the needs of the many though self sacrifice. Spock sacrificed his life to save the rest of the crew on the ship voluntarily, because he believed the needs of the many [the crew] to live outweighed his need to live. He personally chose. The socialist forces people and sacrifices people to achieve the common good, or meet the needs of the many. This will never result in mutual respect, love or honor.

[Darren]

If we use that parody of Spock sacrificing himself for the crew of the Enterprise in "Star Trek II -The Wrath of Khan." for comparison then we should also use a parody from "Star Trek III - The Search for Spock" wherein Kirk tells Spock why the Enterprise and the whole crew came back for him, as Kirk said on behalf of himself and his crew, "The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the few or the many."

When we substitute Jesus Christ for Spock in theses parodies, then we see why so many would work together in corporation, to show their love for Jesus. Modern Communists/Humanists try to insert Satan for the Savior, their plan is back-firing.

God Bless,
Darren