I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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ShineOn
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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jnjnelson wrote:
ShineOn wrote:I am not going after Rick.
Will you, please, explain the difference - as you see it - between "exposing what is wrong with" Rick Koerber and "going after" Rick Koerber?
I am not going after the movement. I've got no beef with him as a person. I'm not singling him out. He refers to himself as "The Free Capitalist" so I will comment on what "The Free Capitalist" teaches.
jnjnelson wrote:
shadow wrote:It is interesting that the church says to get out of debt and avoid it like the plague and yet ...
That is interesting, isn't it? I think it would be worth exploring how the church owned credit union could be acting according to true principles in this case. I believe the principles involved could be researched, in part, using Brigham Young's Use and Abuse of Blessings, Journal of Discourses, Vol 1.
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ShineOn
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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but it's not about the money. right
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jnjnelson
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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ShineOn wrote:Why don't you read about what Capitalism is (newest post on the blog) and respond to that?
Because I find nothing worth responding to.
ShineOn wrote:Why don't you comment on whether "democracy is evil" or not?
The Founding Father's found democracy to be evil enough to omit it from our form of government, I think that speaks for itself.
ShineOn wrote:Or do you just want to whine about how you think I am just going off of rumor?
Are you implying that I am whining? I assure you I am not. Are you whining? I have made no assumptions on that point, as I can only read your words, and not hear any high-pitched plaintive or distressed cry.
Merriam-Webster wrote:rumor
Pronunciation: \ˈrü-mər\
Function: noun
1: talk or opinion widely disseminated with no discernible source
2: a statement or report current without known authority for its truth
I do not think you are "going off of rumor" - I think the statements you have been making are rumors. You are disseminating your opinion widely with no discernible source, and you are making statements which have no known authority for their truth.

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shadow
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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I used to listen to the free capitalist show all the time. He took over Jim Sumpter's time slot on KTKK. I never found anything wrong with what was taught. I quite enjoyed his show. I don't ever recall him asking to pull equity out of your house and invest with him. I would have changed the channel.

As far as his cars go, who cares what he drives? I don't, but I don't get jealous over another's property. Maybe he's using it as a tool for encouragement?? I don't know. I don't know the guy. But this quote comes to mind.

"Property is desirable and is a positive good to the world. That some should be rich shows that others may become rich and hence is just encouragement to industry and enterprise."

If Rick loves his cars and brags about them then shame on him. He'll have his reward. But on the same token, the LDS church house I go to sure looks nice!! Nicer than it needs to be!

PS, so is Rick in trouble with the law? I haven't listened to his show for over a year or so now.

ShineOn
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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"Because I find nothing worth responding to."

'nough said

You're not even trying.
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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shadow wrote:I used to listen to the free capitalist show all the time. He took over Jim Sumpter's time slot on KTKK. I never found anything wrong with what was taught. I quite enjoyed his show. I don't ever recall him asking to pull equity out of your house and invest with him. I would have changed the channel.

As far as his cars go, who cares what he drives? I don't, but I don't get jealous over another's property. Maybe he's using it as a tool for encouragement?? I don't know. I don't know the guy. But this quote comes to mind.

"Property is desirable and is a positive good to the world. That some should be rich shows that others may become rich and hence is just encouragement to industry and enterprise."

If Rick loves his cars and brags about them then shame on him. He'll have his reward. But on the same token, the LDS church house I go to sure looks nice!! Nicer than it needs to be!

PS, so is Rick in trouble with the law? I haven't listened to his show for over a year or so now.
Did you read the post? They say "it's not about the money" but then that's what they focus on, that's the image they project. And did you read the post about "What are they selling?" They are selling a lifestyle, a materialistic one, and using "principles" as an excuse (which will be another post in the near future). I want to do one on the problems with "Equity Milling" and then one that describes how the faulty "Equity Milling" idea can be made worse through fraud to a point that it goes supernova in magnitude of disaster. The trick they've used to pilfer people's money is pretty slick.
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shadow
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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I don't follow Rick nor have I read the post, nor will I. It doesn't matter to me. If he brags about the car, then shame on him. But either way, it doesn't matter to me. I'll still be riding my bike to work on nice days and driving my fancy 2000 Saab 9-5 peace of crap on bad weather days :D

ShineOn
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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shadow wrote:I don't follow Rick nor have I read the post, nor will I. It doesn't matter to me. If he brags about the car, then shame on him. But either way, it doesn't matter to me. I'll still be riding my bike to work on nice days and driving my fancy 2000 Saab 9-5 peace of crap on bad weather days :D
You're not understanding why they are showing you the cars. It's not to brag. It's to get you to follow what they say. It's to say "I've got it all, and you could have it, too!" like a late-night infomercial, but more subtle. It's the same reason advertisement have attractive people in them, not because they are bragging or showing off, but in order to reinforce the notion to the viewer that this is what you want to be like so this is what you need to do. Pick up a mag with a cigarette ad on it. It's a scene that portrays what you want, health, happiness, success, freedom...so smoke! You create and association between the lifestyle and the product. Cigarettes means fun times. Free Capitalist \ Producer Revolution means success and nice cars. That's what they are doing. Take an advertising class or something. It's obvious.

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shadow
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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I think that's the whole point of the free capitalist show, success. So it makes sense that that's what they would advertise.

It was July of '06 that I stopped listening to the show. So I'm probably not up to date on the whole free capitalist thing.

Anyway, I need to go get a beer so I can relax on the beach :mrgreen:

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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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shadow wrote:I think that's the whole point of the free capitalist show, success. So it makes sense that that's what they would advertise.

It was July of '06 that I stopped listening to the show. So I'm probably not up to date on the whole free capitalist thing.

Anyway, I need to go get a beer so I can relax on the beach :mrgreen:
AND THEY ARE SHOWING "SUCCESS" TO BE LUXURY CARS!

mercy, that's my point. Saying it's one thing, showing it to be something else.

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shadow
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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Isn't that part of being successful? To be able to choose to drive a luxury car if you want? You probably can't flip burgers at Burger King and afford a luxury car. Smoking won't bring a Corvette into your garage. Financial success allows that choice. That's what they are advertising.

ShineOn
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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shadow wrote:Isn't that part of being successful? To be able to choose to drive a luxury car if you want? You probably can't flip burgers at Burger King and afford a luxury car. Smoking won't bring a Corvette into your garage. Financial success allows that choice. That's what they are advertising.
Ladies and Gentleman, Exhibit A.
A "Free Capitalist" declares that luxury cars are part of being successful.

This is exactly what I am talking about. You have done the FreeCapitalist\Producer equivalent of smoking. The reinforcement, their subtle messages, worked to convince you of a false ideas of "success" and they peddled a bunch of "principles" to cover it up.
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Darren
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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In October 2005 I attended the Wednesday night meetings in the basement of Cleon Skousen’s home and I met some people from the Franklin Squires Group and they encouraged me to look into the Free Capitalists Organization.

I asked them to explain a little more about what the Franklin Squires and Free Capitalists were about and they mentioned to me some very devious ways to cheat others out of their wealth, ways that were legal but in my book very dishonest.

A Free Capitalist has nothing to do with Free. I call them Great and Abominable Capitalists.
"A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of the Saints, and the results will be financial bondage." J. Golden Kimball, Conference Report, October 1930, p.59
"After a while the Gentiles will gather to this place by the thousands, and Salt Lake will be classified among the wicked cities of the world. A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of the Saints, and the result will be financial bondage.

"Persecution comes next, and all true Latter-day Saints will be tested to the limit. Many will apostatize, and others will stand still, not knowing what to do. 'Darkness will cover the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people.'

"The Judgments of God will be poured out upon the wicked to the extent that our elders from far and near will be called home. Or in other words, the gospel will be taken from the Gentiles and later on will be carried to the Jews.

"The western boundaries of the state of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that, as President Young tells us, when we return to that place, 'There will not be left so much as a yellow dog to wag his tail.'

"Before that day comes, however, the Saints will be put to a test that will try the integrity of the best of them. The pressure will become so great that the more righteous among them will cry unto the Lord day and night until deliverance comes.

"Then the Prophet Joseph and others will make their appearance and those who have remained faithful will be selected to return to Jackson county, Missouri, and take part in the upbuilding of that beautiful city, the New Jerusalem."

Prophecy of Heber C. Kimball To Sister Amanda H. Wilcox, Deseret News, May 23, 1931; W. Cleon Skousen, Prophecy and Modern Times, pp. 31-33
Yes, we think we are secure here in the chambers of the everlasting hills, where we can cloes those few doors of the canyons against mobs and persecutors, the wicked and the vile, who have always beset us with violence and robbery, but I want to say to you, my brethren, the time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to the extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint from the face of an enemy to the people of God. Then, brethren, look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great sifting time, and many will fall; for I say unto you there is a TEST, a TEST, a TEST coming, and who will be able to stand?

Orson F. Whitney, Life of Heber C. Kimball, (1856) pp. 446-7

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shadow
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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ShineOn wrote: Ladies and Gentleman, Exhibit A.
A "Free Capitalist" declares that luxury cars are part of being successful.

This is exactly what I am talking about. You have done the FreeCapitalist\Producer equivalent of smoking. The reinforcement, their subtle messages, worked to convince you of a false ideas of "success" and they peddled a bunch of "principles" to cover it up. This is why I writing the blog. I don't expect to convince anyone already involved. It's more for the benefit up people try to learn about it.

Ug. Just wait till the "going against church counsel" post.
ShineOn, I think you've been smoking a little something. It appears that you're a little too wrapped up in this anti free capitalist movement. The free capitalist hasn't convinced me of anything. That was a lousy judgment call on your part. Apologies accepted! They are a business offering a service and they advertise for it. It's quite simple.

And who said, other than you, that luxury cars are part of being successful? I didn't. Re-read my post carefully.

I'll repost this quote
"Property is desirable and is a positive good to the world. That some should be rich shows that others may become rich and hence is just encouragement to industry and enterprise."

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shadow
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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Darren wrote:In October 2005 I attended the Wednesday night meetings in the basement of Cleon Skousen’s home and I met some people from the Franklin Squires Group and they encouraged me to look into the Free Capitalists Organization.

I asked them to explain a little more about what the Franklin Squires and Free Capitalists were about and they mentioned to me some very devious ways to cheat others out of their wealth, ways that were legal but in my book very dishonest.

A Free Capitalist has nothing to do with Free. I call them Great and Abominable Capitalists.
It would be nice if you could be specific. Exactly what were these "devious ways to cheat others out of their wealth"?

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shadow wrote:They are a business offering a service and they advertise for it. It's quite simple.

And who said, other than you, that luxury cars are part of being successful? I didn't. Re-read my post carefully.
That's right. It is simple. Yet a whole lot of people are falling for it.

And you can play that game with someone else about what you "really said." You asked a rhetorical question. You were saying that the cars were part of being successful. Are you saying they are not?

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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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shadow wrote:It would be nice if you could be specific. Exactly what were these "devious ways to cheat others out of their wealth"?
This is to Darren, so I apologize for butting in.

shadow, do you understand how Capital Leases work? Do you understand who owns what, and who has what liabilities in Equity Milling and Capital Leases? I'll give you a hint: if you aren't a partner in a company involved in this, it's probably not going to go your way.
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shadow
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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ShineOn wrote:
shadow wrote:They are a business offering a service and they advertise for it. It's quite simple.

And who said, other than you, that luxury cars are part of being successful? I didn't. Re-read my post carefully.
That's right. It is simple. Yet a whole lot of people are falling for it.

And you can play that game with someone else about what you "really said." You asked a rhetorical question. You were saying that the cars were part of being successful. Are you saying they are not?
I said if you are financially successful you have a choice to have a luxury car. Now, maybe my definition of financially successful is different than yours.

And you're the one playing the silly game. You put words in my mouth that I didn't say. Shame on you. I never said cars are a part of being successful. But success allows for more choices. One can be financially successful and choose to not have a car. But it's hard for one who is not financially successful to choose to have a luxury car.

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shadow
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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ShineOn wrote:
shadow wrote:It would be nice if you could be specific. Exactly what were these "devious ways to cheat others out of their wealth"?
This is to Darren, so I apologize for butting in.

shadow, do you understand how Capital Leases work? Do you understand who owns what, and who has what liabilities in Equity Milling and Capital Leases? I'll give you a hint: if you aren't a partner in a company involved in this, it's probably not going to go your way.

I really need to write a post on this so people understand it.
Like I posted earlier, I'm not part of the free capitalist movement. I asked Darren what he was told specifically. I don't want innuendo, rumors and blanket comments.
I don't understand this equity milling or capital lease stuff. But I do know that knowledge is power. So that being said I wouldn't get involved in investments I don't know anything about. Maybe some people have?? There are risks associated with giving another party stewardship over your money.

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jnjnelson
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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ShineOn wrote:You're not even trying.
What exactly should I be trying? Should I be joining in with all the other ad hominem arguments going on in this discussion? Should I also attack the character of those with whom I disagree, or shall I stick to making intellectual arguments against the words of those with whom I disagree? What exactly are you suggesting?

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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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It's over. Case closed.
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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I guess something really struck a chord.
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jnjnelson
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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ShineOn wrote:I guess something really struck a chord.
Yes, you did. Maybe now we can get somewhere. Hopefully. Maybe you can also respond to Rick's comment,the one that says "The problem is that you postings are not critiques, they are re-contextualizations." I agree completely with this comment of Rick's, though I don't agree with his comments about intellectual property. All of your critiques on your blog do not maintain context, especially the most recent one referencing the sound clips. I could condemn anyone by taking their comments out of context, including those above reproach. I could also condemn ShineOn, Utahn, myself or anyone else who is not above reproach. Please maintain context and provide truth and fact, not rumor. Please control your words and language.

ShineOn
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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jnjnelson wrote:
ShineOn wrote:I guess something really struck a chord.
Yes, you did. Maybe now we can get somewhere. Hopefully. Maybe you can also respond to Rick's comment,the one that says "The problem is that you postings are not critiques, they are re-contextualizations." I agree completely with this comment of Rick's, though I don't agree with his comments about intellectual property. All of your critiques on your blog do not maintain context, especially the most recent one referencing the sound clips. I could condemn anyone by taking their comments out of context, including those above reproach. I could also condemn ShineOn, Utahn, myself or anyone else who is not above reproach. Please maintain context and provide truth and fact, not rumor. Please control your words and language.
What, is this like your big brother coming to beat me up and set me straight? "Yeah, just wait till my brother gets here! Then he'll show you!"
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Darren
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Re: I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

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When I met the Franklin Squires and Free Capitalist folks at Cleon Skousen's home they told me that one of the money producing activities they engaged in was by canvassing neighborhoods, preferably neighborhoods with homes occupied by senior citizens. And then offering these senior citizens 20% below market value for their home. Then these Idiots could just flip the home for a handsome profit.

Color that idea any way you want and it is most definitely devious.


Combining the two words Free Capitalist into an expression is a misnomer and a fraud.

If you are Free you are a person who holds himself to high moral values.

If you are a Capitalist, that means you follow the Capital.

The two meanings don’t mix by any stretch of the imagination.

Work together by the Law, not by money.

God Bless,
Darren

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