I've been listening to archives of "The Free Capitalist"

[ShineOn]

I'm honestly curious why something can apply to an entity but not to a person.

Then answer this: why doesn't the credit union pay tithing? How much time does a credit union get in jail if steals people's money? How much money is the credit union saving for retirement? What kind of job can a credit union get? How can it make money?

[shadow]

Actually, the credit union does pay tithing as does all the church owned businesses.

What keeps the credit union from floating away into outer space? It's held to this earth by the same principle that holds you to this earth, gravity. Principles are truths that are eternal. They apply to everything.

"How much time does the credit union get if it steals money?" Silly question. The credit union is made up of people. The person that works there that stole the money goes to jail. Check out what happened to the top dogs at Enron. They went to jail.

If there is a true principle, it will apply to all.

[shadow]

I'm honestly curious why something can apply to an entity but not to a person.

Let me rephrase this statement so some can more easily understand. -I'm honestly curious why a principle or technique can apply to an entity made up of people (a group of individuals) but not to an individual.

Truth is either eternal or it isn't. The word of wisdom for example is a principle with a promise, it's a truth. I don't think one can smoke in the celestial kingdom. Tithing is a principle with a promise. In fact, all commandments are principles and we are promised blessings for being obedient to that principle. Principles are nothing more than truths, are they not? So I can only assume that in order to prosper and succeed one must abide by some rules or principles. I have to conclude that those same principles must apply to corporations as well. After all, corps are nothing more than people (trust me on this one, I know, I'm the president of one). Corporations fail all the time. Why? Because the people running them don't follow principles. Darren speaks of working by the law. Get a group of 10 and incorporate he says. Does that mean that particular corporation can then not abide by the law and still think to succeed because now it's a corporation? I think not.

This reminds me of My cousin Vinny.

Vinny: How could it take you 5 minutes to cook your grits when it takes the entire grit eating world 20 minutes?

Mr. Tipton: Um... I'm a fast cook, I guess.

Vinny: What? I'm sorry, I was all the way over here, I couldn't hear you. Did you just say you were a fast cook? Are we to believe that boiling water soaks into a grit faster in your kitchen than any other place on the face of the earth?

Mr. Tipton: I don't know.

Vinny: Perhaps the laws of physics cease to exist on your stove! Were these magic grits? Did you buy them from the guy who sold Jack his beanstalk beans?

I imagine it wouldn't matter if an individual were cooking these grits or a restaurant, it takes the same amount of time to cook. The laws of physics don't change for corporations. Principles don't change.


So does the Deseret First credit union owned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints follow principles or is it nothing more than hypocritical and completely opposite of what the church teaches? Maybe it is, I don't know. But after all, when I make a deposit at that place, they are in debt to me. They would love to be in debt to more people, and they would also love more people to be in debt to them.

[ShineOn]

shadow, I asked to to figure out how much a credit union should save for retirement. If the answer is "nothing" then why would an individual save for retirement? Shouldn't they be following the same principles?

The answer is that a credit union is a fundamentally different thing than a person. A credit union is an artificial construct that has different rules and which has a totally different life cycle than a person. It would be ridiculous for a president of a credit union to suggest that the credit union open an IRA for retirement for itself.

People get tripped up by this "principles are eternal" business. It is true, they are, but I think the people that say this don't know what they are, and aren't very good at figuring out how to adhere to them, as in the example of the president of the credit union. Is "saving for retirement" an eternal principle? If so, then the credit union should do it. But the credit union will never retire, so it would make no sense for the credit union to save for retirement.

Since the credit union will never retire, it will make different financial decisions than a person will. So we would not expect a person and a credit union to make the same financial decisions. Some things should be the same, like acting honestly and fairly in transactions. But what financial decisions they make, ie, how they invest and what they do with their money, should be different because they are fundamentally different entities.

So it would be a mistake to try to apply counsel from the church to individuals and compare it to the actions of a credit union. Only some things should be the same, others not. Apples and oranges.

[shadow]

I can kinda see your point Shineon, but how many employees does the credit union provide a retirement for? Remember, the credit union is nothing more than people.

And please don't suggest again that a credit union can't save. Certainly most successful corporations save. And they also have investments just like.....people . But a corporation does not have to retire, it just hires new people to replace the old people. (And a good corporation will take care of it's old people long after they quit working there via retirement plans )

And I agree that people can get tied up in this principles are eternal thing. While it is true that they (principles) are eternal, it's important to be sure that the principle is true. A false principle will always be false. That's why I brought up the church owned credit union. Are they practicing true principles or false ones? After all, they are just people. They could be wrong in what they practice. But if what they practice are true principles, then an individual can do the same thing. It's as simple as that in my mind.

Sorry if I've high jacked the free capitalist thing. I don't know much about it (them?) so I went my own way 8). I am curious about principles though.