Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after all

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AussieOi
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Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after all

Post by AussieOi »

I've pulled many threads together to compile this
I don't think I've missed much
A lot of this came from some puremormonism blogspot web site, and I abridge other references.
The reference to "I" in this drifts between this guy and me, but I'd say 75% of the material comes from this page
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com.au/20 ... thing.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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If we are going to correctly observe God's law of tithing -and make no mistake, it is most certainly a law- perhaps it's time we clear our minds of the detritus that has accumulated from decades of second hand information, and get the straight skinny directly from the Lord himself.

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On December 7, 1836, Bishop Edward Partridge and his counsellors officially defined tithing as 2 percent of the net worth of each member of the church, after deducting debts

Apparently this money was put to covering the operating expenses of the Church, and it appears to have been adequate for a time.

Two years later, when the Church was eight years old, some 15,000 converts had already emigrated from their homes and gathered to Missouri, the new Zion. Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon, who constituted the First Presidency at the time, were spending all their time dealing with and settling this huge flow of immigrants, to the exclusion of being able to provide a living for their own families.

Things were at a point where Joseph and Sidney must either be compensated for their time, or they were both going to have to stop what they were doing and go out and get a real job.

On May 12th the two men took the matter before the High Council of the Church. George W. Robinson recorded the minutes:
The Presidency laid before the High Council their situation as to maintaining their families in the situation and relation they stood to the Church, spending as they have for eight years their time, talents, and property in the service of the Church and now reduced as it were to absolute beggary and still were detained in the service of the Church. It now [had] become necessary that something should be done for their support, either by the Church or else they must do it themselves of their own labors. If the Church said, "Help yourselves," they would thank them and immediately do so, but if the Church said, "Serve us," then some provisions must be made for them. (Scott Faulring, An American Prophet's Record, Pg 182.)

The High Council voted eleven to one (George Hinkle vigorously opposed "a salaried ministry") to further contract the two men for their services, being careful to note that the money was "not for preaching or for receiving the word of God by revelation, neither for instructing the Saints in righteousness," but for work in the "printing establishment, in translating the ancient records, &c, &c." (ibid.)

Richard S. Van Wagoner, in his biography of Sidney Rigdon, explained:
After negotiations, they agreed to offer Rigdon and Smith an annual contract of $1,100 apiece, more than three times what the average worker of the day could earn. Ebenezer Robinson, the High Council's clerk, later wrote that "when it was noised abroad that the Council had taken such a step, the members of the Church, almost to a man, lifted their voices against it. The expression of disapprobation was so strong and emphatic that at the next meeting of the High Council, the resolution voting them a salary was rescinded." (Richard S. Van Wagoner, Sidney Rigdon, Pg 230.)

What the High Council did instead was offer the men 80 acres for their families to live on. So now Joseph and Sidney had some ground under them, but no walking around money

The Church had been growing faster than anyone had anticipated, so it was past time to get the Lord's opinion on how to handle the financial end of things. Even though Bishop Partridge had declared tithing to be 2 percent of net, Partridge was not authorized to set doctrine; only God could do that.

So in July of 1838 Joseph put the question to the Lord as to how all this was intended to work, and the answer is what we now know as the law of tithing?

This law consists of the entire chapter of D&C 119, and takes up all of seven short verses.

In the first verse, the Lord announces the first part of the tithe. It is for all the surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop.

In Genesis 14 of the King James Version, we are left with the impression that Abram paid one tenth of all his possessions. That would have been a lot for Melchizedek to carry back, because Abram had a lot of possessions.

Yet in Joseph Smith's newer translation, we find that "Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need. (JST Genesis 14:39) Still a lot, but now we see it's not a tenth of everything. Abram gave only a tenth of his surplus.

God has never required his people to "pay him first," or to give to the Church before meeting the needs of our families. God's law has always been extremely fair.

Joseph Smith had not even been in his grave a month before the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued an edict declaring that instead of giving of their surplus, the Saints were to henceforth give "a tenth of all their property and money...and then let them continue to pay a tenth of their income from that time forth." There was no exemption for those who had already given all their surplus. The new rule was a tenth of everything right off the top.

The twelve didn't pretend this change represented a revelation from God; they just issued a decree to get it. They arbitrarily changed the definition of tithing just because they wanted to. Apparently some people don't understand the meaning of "a standing law forever."

By the time the Saints had settled in Utah, all talk of surplus had vanished from the dialogue. New converts were expected to turn over ten percent of all their property at the time of their baptism, then another ten percent upon arriving in Utah, and ten percent more every year thereafter.

General authorities had either misread the Lord's words in Section 119, or were simply wrong when they taught that tithing was now "one tenth of all we possess at the start, and then ever after one tenth..." omitting to clarify what it was 1/10th of , which was surplus.

Webster defines "surplus" as "that which remains when use is satisfied; excess beyond what is prescribed or wanted."

Common sense would tell us that the suffixes "plus" in the words surplus and overplus would mean something like "in addition to," or "above and beyond,

We see in verse four of God's law of tithing that after giving this initial surplus, "those who have thus been tithed shall pay one tenth of all their interest annually." Well, that's an unusual word in that context, at least by modern standards. Not sure about the meaning of the term "interest" to the early Latter-day Saints? The pertinent definitions provided by Webster's 1828 inform us that it is a "share; portion; part; any surplus advantage." There's that word surplus again. It turns out that Interest is practically synonymous with surplus. As is also the meaning of increase.

As an aside, our wages or earnings have always been defined as compensation for your time and labor. It is an even trade of value for value. It is not gain. There is no "gain" accrued when you receive your wages. You are simply being evenly compensated, which means given even value. Everything is still in equal balance when you got paid. You made an even exchange of your time in exchange for their money.

There is no gain or overage involved in that transaction. There is no gain because there is no increase involved. Only after you have met your expenses can you enjoy your gain which is the money you get to use as you wish, to buy what you want, to save for some future purchase, or even to fritter away.

Gain, Increase, and Interest are all synonymous with what you have left of your wages after providing for your needs. After you have provided for your needs, you get to use the rest of your money to satisfy your wants.

The important principle is to be spiritually mature enough to be able to tell the difference between what you need, and what you merely desire. If you can honestly differentiate between the two, congratulations, you're on the path Christ set for you.

The law of tithing, as given to us by the Lord, is a simple law; it is only when we turn it into something difficult and complicated that we begin to see it as a challenge or a sacrifice

The background to the bigger push of it being 10% of income came after the Church had overspent itself for some time. Wilford Woodruff, anxious to complete the Salt Lake Temple in his lifetime, had spent $1 million to complete the $4 million edifice in 1893. Educational and civic responsibilities also drained the budget. The Church was supporting Young College in Logan, Brigham Young Academy in Provo, and the Latter-day Saint College in Salt Lake.

The national depression from 1893 through the latter half of the decade had increased the number of Saints in dire need of welfare. Furthermore, the Church invested heavily in local power, mining, sugar, and salt companies, trying to stimulate regional employment. According to Michael Quinn, the primary cause of the Church's indebtedness was "massive losses in the Church's interlocked mining, sugar, real estate, banking, and investment firms." As early as 1893, the Church began borrowing to meet its obligations, first from stake presidents and eventually from such "outside" institutions as Wells Fargo & Co., and National Union Bank.

Second, the Church maintained little fiscal supervision. Snow had been alarmed, on assuming the presidency, to discover that no budgetary controls existed. Decisions about using Church funds were made ad hoc on an as-needed basis. (Journal of Mormon History, Volume 20, No. 1, 1994)

Third, tithing receipts were down, and they had been down ever since the Quorum had changed the rules without authorization from God back in August 1844, when they announced the requirement of a tenth of all one's possessions at baptism, another tenth of all possessions upon arriving in Utah, and a perpetual tenth every year thereafter. Many members contributed only as much as they could afford, and a good number just gave up and stopped trying altogether. And of course, there was that little practice of the Brethren "borrowing" tithing funds for their personal use. The Church was in need of a tithing reformation, and Lorenzo Snow was the right guy at the right time.
Last edited by AussieOi on April 2nd, 2013, 12:16 am, edited 4 times in total.

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AussieOi
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Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

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Snow cancelled the requirement to give a tenth of one's property at baptism. Henceforth, tithing would consist of one tenth of one's annual income (and yes, everyone at the time knew what "income" was). Tithing receipts immediately and dramatically increased. He instituted strict controls and oversight to eliminate tithing being justified to increase allowances to members of the quorum.

So what we went from was this (original) approach to tithing
Brigham Young:

“When the revelation which I have read was given in 1838, I was present, and recollect the feelings of the brethren. A number of revelations were given on the same day. The brethren wished me to go among the Churches, and find out what surplus property the people had, with which to forward the building of the Temple we were commencing at Far West. I accordingly went from place to place through the country. Before I started, I asked brother Joseph, “Who shall be the judge of what is surplus property?” Said he, “Let them be the judges themselves, for I care not if they do not give a single dime. So far as I am concerned, I do not want anything they have.” (JD, 2:306)

Orson Hyde:
"The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after(See D&C 119:4). If it requires all man can earn to support himself and his family, he is not tithed at all. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)

John Corrill:
"If a man gives for the benefit of the Church, it is considered a voluntary offering. Yet the law requires or enjoins a consecration of the overplus, after reserving for himself and family to carry on his business." (A Brief History of the Church of Latter Day Saints, pg. 45)

Mutating into this
If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing." (Aaron L. West, Sacred Transformations, December 2012)


..and Conference centres, and Malls, and Credit Card companies charging 26%pa, and so on.

Biblical concept of it being a “surplus” to needs are clear and support the Surplus Income concept of D&C119
JST Genesis 14

36 And this Melchizedek, having thus established righteousness, was called the king of heaven by his people, or, in other words, the King of peace.
37 And he lifted up his voice, and he blessed Abram, being the high priest, and the keeper of the storehouse of God;
38 Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor.
39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.
40 And it came to pass, that God blessed Abram, and gave unto him riches, and honor, and lands for an everlasting possession; according to the covenant which he had made, and according to the blessing wherewith Melchizedek had blessed him.

D&C 42
17 And you are to be equal, or in other words, you are to have equal claims on the properties, for the benefit of managing the concerns of your stewardships, every man according to his wants and his needs, inasmuch as his wants are just
18 And all this for the benefit of the church of the living God, that every man may improve upon his talent, that every man may gain other talents, yea, even an hundred fold, to be cast into the Lord’s storehouse, to become the common property of the whole church—
19 Every man seeking the interest of his neighbour, and doing all things with an eye single to the glory of God.

32 And it shall come to pass, that after they are laid before the bishop of my church, and after that he has received these testimonies concerning the consecration of the properties of my church, that they cannot be taken from the church, agreeable to my commandments, every man shall be made accountable unto me, a steward over his own property, or that which he has received by consecration, as much as is sufficient for himself and family.

33 And again, if there shall be properties in the hands of the church, or any individuals of it, more than is necessary for their support after this first consecration, which is a residue to be consecrated unto the bishop, it shall be kept to administer to those who have not, from time to time, that every man who has need may be amply supplied and receive according to his wants.

D&C 51
And again, let the bishop appoint a storehouse unto this church; and let all things both in money and in meat, which are more than is needful for the wants of this people, be kept in the hands of the bishop.

D&C 119
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,
2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.


21st Century Church misleading on the important element of “Surplus

Early church teachings of Lorenzo Snow. Two examples. In each example is how it is taught to us today, taken out of context of what he taught. Also included are the original teachings sans the ellipses. I leave it to each person to decide if doctrine is being/has been altered.

The Lonenzo Snow Manual

I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child ... shall pay onetenth of their income as a tithing.

Teachings of Lorenzo Snow manual, page 160 (and just what lies in the ellipses?)

And what he actually said

I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay onetenth of their income as a tithing.
Conference Report Oct 1899 page 28

Why did they deliberately remove that important point? I think we know.

And another

What the Manuel says he said (note more ellipses)

When we pay tithing, we contribute to the work of the Church. This Church could not go on unless there was revenue, and this revenue God has provided for [through the law of tithing]. Our temples, in which we receive the highest blessings ever conferred on mortal man, are built through revenue. We never could send the … Elders out into the world to preach the Gospel, as we are now doing, unless there was revenue to do it. … Then there are a thousand other things constantly occurring for which means are required. …
Page 162 of Lorenzo Snow manual. http://archive.org/stream/conferencerep ... 8/mode/2up" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (See below to see what lies in the ellipses.)

And what was removed from the manual from what he actually said (in bold)

This Church could not go on unless there was revenue, and this revenue Gold has provided for. Our temples, in which we receive the highest blessings ever conferred on mortal man, are built through revenue. We never could send the two thousand Elders out into the world to preach the Gospel, as we are now doing, unless there was revenue to do it. It costs tens of thousands of dollars, running into the hundreds of thousands, to send our Elders out to the world year after year. Then there are a thousand other things constantly occurring for which means are required. $40,000 or $50,000 is required yearly to support the poor.

"And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people."And after that, those who had thus been tithed, shall pay one tenth of all their interest annually."'"And this shall be a standing law unto them for ever, for my Holy Priesthood, saith the Lord." "Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you."

Conference Report October 1899 pages 27-28 http://archive.org/stream/conferencerep ... 8/mode/2up" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


(FWIW this is when I let go of an earthly institution and found Christ, and King Benjamin, and The good samaritan.
I could also say it is when, well, people can experience their own emotional trauma to see how they have been lied to here)



D&C 119:2 states what tithing is to be used for:

1. Building temples
2. Laying the foundation of Zion.
3. Laying the foundation for the priesthood. Maybe things like missionary work...?
4. Paying off the debts of the church presidency. The church isn't currently in debt

There is nothing there about building retail outlets.

Here is a good one from the New Testament
Which to me sums up the real intent of tithing

2 Corinthians 8:

7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.

8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.

9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

10 And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.

11 Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.

12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:

14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:

15 As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.


Does this summarise the principle of tithing?

13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:

14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:




My Summary: Tithing is 10% of your surplus income, after all reasonable living expenses are removed. It is up to the individual to determine what their living expenses are and that (indirectly) defines the person and where their heart lies.

Paying a proper tithing was never meant to be a burden on anyone financially and post Old Testament was only meant to pay for the church expense primarily missions, buildings and a bit for the poor.

If you want to use Old Testmant Jacob, you can't. He said he would give 10% to the Lord IF the lord gave him something first. And the Lord didn't (while he was alive) and there is no record of any payment

You can't use the Jacob scripture to justify tithing

Paying a tithing that is not unreasonable also enables people to be able to enjoy the blessing of paying other offerings as they desire and are able to also.

On surplus also enables a family to adjust for whatever the taxation rates in a country are which can range from 5% to 75%. It never was 10% of income either Gross or Net.

It is meant to be a joy
Last edited by AussieOi on March 24th, 2013, 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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AussieOi
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Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by AussieOi »

Malachi 3- Background
Almost from the beginning in the Church, general authorities were loaning themselves large amounts of money out of the tithing fund for their private use. As reported by historian Thomas Alexander, "By March 1899 outstanding loans totaled $115,000, much of which, one authority said, would never be repaid 'in this life'..." (Mormonism In Transition, Pg 100.) Stake Presidents were granted $300-$500 salaries cryptically labeled "travel costs" from tithing funds.

But what about those promised blessings? Doesn't the Lord through Malachi promise to open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing upon all the faithful Latter-day Saints who unquestioningly pay their tithes on time?

Well no. Malachi wasn't talking to the tithe payers. He was talking to the priests who had been collecting money for the poor and were keeping most of it for themselves.

It is a testament to our willingness for self-indoctrination that so many Latter-day Saints constantly quote the verse in Chapter 3 that asks "will a man rob God?" and assume the Lord is rebuking the people for withholding payment. When you read the previous chapters and verses you will see that Malachi, as God's mouthpiece, is accusing the Church leaders of embezzling. The tithes had already been paid by the people; they were simply being held up by the leadership. To paraphrase the famous words of King Solomon, "So what else is new?" (Ecclesiastes 1:9)

It can be confusing to some people why God would be angry at the priests for keeping the tithes to themselves, since the people's tithes were the very thing the Levite Priests were granted for their livelihood. It was the job of the Priest to run the temple, and tithes contributed by the people were the way in which the priests were to be compensated. It was all on the up and up. It therefore makes little sense to some people to see the priests accused of keeping the tithes for themselves when paying the priests was the very purpose of the tithes in the first place.

But the key words here are "tithes and offerings." As it turns out, there were two tithes that went to compensate the priests: first, everything that grew out of the earth was tithed for their support. There was also a second tithe, known as the cattle tithe, that was to be shared between the priests and the offerer. It's likely that the priests were taking more than their share of the meat from these offerings, and selling some of that meat for personal gain. And there was yet a third tithe, the annual tithe levied for the relief of the poor, and it was the theft of that tithe that seems to have gotten God and Malachi to come unglued. "Will a man rob God? Well You have robbed me, even this whole nation!"

In other words, the priest class had been robbing the whole nation by keeping for themselves the offerings that had been contributed by the people that were intended for the poor. By extension that was tantamount to robbing God himself, as God identifies himself in scripture with the poor and lowly.

Why did the priests find it necessary to embezzle? Silly question, for if we extrapolate forward 400 years to the time of Christ, it's obvious the priest class was by then completely corrupt. But to give the priests in Malachi's day some benefit of the doubt, scholars suggest it was normal human nature for these men to be worried they might some day have to do without if they failed to keep extra stores in reserve. Others, pointing to Matthew 23 and Luke 11, suggest the priests had simply lost the sense of proportion with regard to what was important in religious observance.

Nevertheless, God used Malachi as his spokesman to promise these wayward priests that if they would stop hoarding the offerings and bring all those tithes into the storehouse to be properly distributed among the needy, He, God, would open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing upon the priests; blessings so abundant they might never have to fear shortages again. Try it my way, says the Lord, and see if things don't start to work out better.

The Tithe of the Old Testament went to the Levites because the other 11 tribes received Land in Israel, but they didn’t. They received the tithe in return for their work as Priests.

Interestingly the tithe coffers were meant to be emptied out every 3 years and given to the poor

King james version says:
28 ¶At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.
This is part of the Robbing God of Malachi 3. The Levites were not using it in the way they were meant to but storing it up.

QUOTE Brigham Young


D&C 84:55-58:

55 Vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.


2 Nephi 28:13:

13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.


In the 1960’s when the Church became really wealthy it stopped providing reports of tithing monies and expenditure

This is from the 7th Day Adventist Annual Finances Report, and is an embarrassment to our church which takes in between USD $4 to $6b a year in tithes alone

Seventh-day Adventist World Church Statistics
Summary of Statistics as of December 31, 2010
(Except Where Indicated as June 30, 2011)
Churches, Companies, Membership
Churches 70,188
June 30, 2011 71,048
Companies 65,157
June 30, 2011 65,553
Church Membership 16,923,239
June 30, 2011 17,214,683
Total Accessions 1,050,785
Baptisms 1,023,882
Professions of Faith 26,903
Ordained Ministers, Active 17,272
Total Active Employees 220,760

Mission to the World
Countries and Areas of the World as Recognized by the United Nations 232
Countries and Areas of the World in Which Seventh-day Adventist Work is Established 209
Languages Used in Seventh-day Adventist Publications and Oral Work 921
Divisions 13
Union Conferences 51
Union Missions 55
Union of Churches Conferences 9
Union of Churches Missions 4
Local Conferences 321
Local Missions 264

Educational Program
Total Schools 7,806
Tertiary Institutions 111
Worker Training Institutions 59 Secondary Schools 1,823
Primary Schools 5,813
Total Enrollment 1,668,754
Tertiary Institutions 131,516
Worker Training Institutions 8,862
Secondary Schools 494,324
Primary Schools 1,034,052

Food Industries 20

Healthcare Ministry
Hospitals and Sanitariums 173
Nursing Homes and Retirement Centers 132
Clinics and Dispensaries (incomplete report) 216
Orphanages and Children's Homes 36
Airplanes and Medical Launches 10
Outpatient Visits 15,705,827

Media Centers 14

Publishing Work
Publishing Houses and Branches 63
Literature Evangelists, Credentialed and Licensed 6,994
Languages Used in Publications 377

Sabbath Schools
Sabbath Schools 140,694
Sabbath School Membership 19,368,905

Contributions In US Dollars
Tithe $2,037,618,294
Tithe Per Capita $127.20
Sabbath School Mission Offerings $61,362,489
Ingathering $11,067,178
Total Tithe and Offerings $2,900,945,610
Total Tithe and Offerings Per Capita $181.09

Adventist Development and Relief Agency International (ADRA)
Countries and Areas of the World Where ADRA is Involved* 131
Total Projects Funded* 1,897 Development* 1,043
Relief* 854
Beneficiaries of Projects* 40,740,106
Total Value of Aid* $281,435,008
(*Supporting and Implementing)

Prepared by the
Office of Archives, Statistics, and Research
General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists
Updated January 4, 2012


As an LDS, how can we not be ashamed to see the (possible) fruits of tithing when we see something like this?

Imagine how positive our missionary efforts would be if we as a church were recognised for our service to our fellow man?

How is this not robbing god?

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AussieOi
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Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by AussieOi »

The Problem With Overpaying

One of the unintended consequences of giving too much of our substance to the Church, is that afterwards we often have little left over to give to the Lord.

But hold on. Haven't we always been taught that this is the Lord's money and that when we tithe to the Church we are in fact giving it to the Lord?

We may have been taught that by someone, but we weren't taught it by God. Nowhere in the Law of Tithing is there any suggestion that by building a temple, or laying the foundations of Zion, or paying the debts of the First Presidency, we are giving that money back to the Lord. We were given the law of tithing because Joseph Smith asked God how it was to be done and the Lord told him. The law does not refer to the money or property as belonging to God. It is earmarked to pay the expenses of the Church.

If you want to give directly to the Lord, the scriptures tell us in several places how best to go about doing that:

"I was hungry and you gave me meat; I was thirsty, and you gave me drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in; naked, and you clothed me; I was sick, and you visited me; I was in prison and you came unto me. Inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me." (Matthew 25:35,36, 40)


"When you are in the service of your fellow beings you are only in the service of your God." (Mosiah 2:17)

Paying a tithe in support of the Church has its place. But is it any more important than giving an offering to the Lord?

There is only one way to give directly to the Lord, and that is by demonstrating compassion for our less fortunate brothers and sisters

The tragedy in all this is that by overpaying tithing most of our lives, we Mormons have talked ourselves into believing that our duty has been fulfilled. And yet our tithes to the corporate Church do next to nothing in assisting the poor and needy among us.

A simple reading of the law in section 119 shows us that the care of the poor and the needy was never the purpose of tithing in the first place. In addition to the small donation the Lord requires us to tithe for the support of Church management, we are still required to provide a generous offering to the poor, but how often are we admonished from the pulpit about remembering our fast offerings?

I'm afraid that in the minds of most members of the Church, the fast offering is an afterthought, something less important than "paying a full tithe." We are taught from our youth the lies about the payment of tithing being like purchasing fire insurance to keep us out of the fiery furnaces of hell, and we believe it without question, along with stories of how the Lord will bless us when we pay our tithing, or how sacrificing to give money to the Church is the way we demonstrate our devotion to God.

Yet the scriptures teach us that to the extent such blessings accrue, they arrive as a reward for helping those in need, not by paying tithes to Salt Lake. We have come to see things exactly backwards. We give much more than is required to the Priests of Levi, But when approached on the street by someone who is truly in need, we clutch our money tight to our bosoms

We tend to focus much, much more on our obligation to the Corporate Church than we do to our neighbors, even those living within our own wards. If the Lord himself were to speak at your next sacrament meeting, where do you think he would suggest the bulk of your discretionary spending be sent? Where do you feel it is most needed?

There may have been a time when the Church truly needed additional tithes to meet its expenses, but that day is far behind us now. It seems to me that today the "church" side -the community of believers made up of individuals- is in much greater need of assistance than the corporate side. In times like these when so many of our brothers and sisters are experiencing increasing hardship, don't you think God would want us to be focusing as much attention on the needs of our neighbors as we do on the debts of the Presidency?

Why don't we hear the bishop announcing the opportunity to take part in a Fast Offering settlement at the end of the year? For that matter, why do we even still hold tithing settlement? Tithing settlement is an anachronism that has outlived its purpose, unless that purpose is intended as an opportunity to interrogate the members and instill unnecessary guilt and fear. What other reason is there to attend one of these meetings? Even those who believe they are required to contribute the full 10 percent of their earnings usually have already taken care of that on a monthly basis. So why an annual tithing "settlement" come December?

My Testimony Of Tithing

As a teenager and young adult growing up in the church, I had a powerful testimony of tithing. I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that as I continued to faithfully donate ten percent of my gross earnings to the Church, the Lord would continue to bless me with a job I liked and could advance in. And it seemed to be working out.

Looking back, I now recognize that it wasn't really the law of tithing I had a testimony of, since I had never even read the thing. What I really had was the testimony of a bribe

It was the old "Blessing Bait & Switch," the presumption those in power seem to have that we will only come around if they can sell us on the idea that there is something in it for us.

Why is it, I wonder, that Church leaders seem to think we have to be bribed with the promise of future blessings to get us to observe this law in its simplicity? Isn't it enough that God gives us His instructions? Are we children, who must be coddled and coaxed with promises of of toys and candy in order to get us to do the right thing?

There was, of course, a very good reason why the Church rushed this film into production when it did. In 1961 the LDS Church found itself once again on the very brink of bankruptcy, this time due to another rash of foolish "investments." The only thing that would save the Church now was more tithing money coming in; lots of it, and fast. What better way to raise the needed funds than to schedule church-wide showings of a movie designed to inspire the membership to open their wallets and purses like never before?

But instead of telling the story straight, which would have been inspiring on its own merits, the Brethren wanted to make sure the members were given a promise the Lord himself never gave: if you support us, you will be rewarded.

I wonder why it is that in every talk I hear about tithing from the Brethren, the speaker seems to think I won't respond unless he dangles a carrot in front of me? They constantly promise us blessings if we pay our tithing, and lately they have been hinting that if we pay more than a tenth we can expect even more blessings. Almost every time I hear a talk about tithing, the speaker is fudging or prevaricating in order to entice me into obedience.


Are We Paying Too Much Tithing?

(Previous Entry: The Opposite of Fear)

We Latter-day Saints have become so accustomed these days to having false doctrine preached at us in church that we barely even blink anymore when we hear it.

Last week in my local sacrament meeting, both speakers gave talks on the same topic, the law of tithing, and both promoted views that were not only not found in God's word, but were actually outright perversions of the law.

It would be unfair to blame the speakers for the misinformation they were spreading. After all, they were only repeating the same myths and assumptions most of us have been taught since childhood, and the teachers and parents who taught them to us did not know any better, either.

Some of these false teachings are that tithing is the Lord's money; that a tithe constitutes ten percent of our total earnings; that we must always make sure to pay tithing first before paying our bills; that tithing money goes to help the poor and needy; that by paying a full tithe God promises to bless us individually; that tithe paying is a commandment that every member of the church is expected to obey regardless of circumstances; and that tithing must be paid before anything else even if it means your children will go hungry.

None of those assumptions can be backed up by scripture, but that latter assumption, perhaps the most insidious and widespread perversion of God's law currently being promoted from the pulpit, is typified by the following statement which appears in the December 2012 issue of The Ensign magazine:

"If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing." (Aaron L. West, Sacred Transformations, December 2012)
Last edited by AussieOi on March 24th, 2013, 8:41 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by AussieOi »

last one

/..............I don't know about you, but for me, simply having the desire to do the Lord's will is enticement enough. I shouldn't have to be bribed and babied along.

I don't know about you, but for me, simply having the desire to do the Lord's will is enticement enough. I shouldn't have to be bribed and babied along

Time For Another Tithing Reformation?

Lorenzo Snow hated debt and he hated that the Church was in debt. He himself bore no responsibility for the Church's former years of profligacy, but he was the first to admit that Church leadership as a whole was largely accountable for the current mess. Snow presided over the cleanup at Church headquarters, initiating what has been called a Tithing Reformation. As the members recommitted to doing their part, Snow made sure the books were transparent. The members were given a full accounting every April as to what their tithes were being used for, so they could voice approval and give their consent as required by D&C sections 26 and 104.

This practice of financial transparency continued until the late 1950's, when First Counselor Henry Moyle's reckless and embarrassing spending spree brought the Church once again to the brink of bankruptcy. (Tellingly, it was only when it was discovered that there might not be enough money on hand to make payroll that the Twelve suddenly pricked up their ears and started paying attention.)

Ever since that close call, the leadership in Salt Lake has stubbornly refused to provide financial accountability to the members, hiding behind the excuse that, this being the Lord's money, it should be of no concern to the meek and lowly members how the Lord decides to spend it.

A growing number of Saints are beginning to ask themselves if it is appropriate to continue to tithe for the support of servants who refuse to be accountable to the people they serve. They wonder if it might not be more appropriate at this time to tithe directly to the Lord, rather than to the institutional Church.

These are valid questions, and ones to which I don't have answers. It seems clear from a reading of section 119 that the tithes are to be given to the Church, but on the other hand, if the tithes are not being used as intended, has the law been nullified?

If you think you don’t have to pay your tithing to the “Church” and are free to offer it to the Lord elsewhere, consider this statement

Tithing
DALLIN H. OAKS
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
1994

We pay tithing, as the Savior taught, by bringing the tithes “into the storehouse” (Mal. 3:10; 3 Ne. 24:10). We do this by paying our tithing to our bishop or branch president. We do not pay tithing by contributing to our favorite charities. The contributions we should make to charities come from our own funds, not from the tithes we are commanded to pay to the storehouse of the Lord.

The Lord has directed by revelation that the expenditure of his tithes will be directed by his servants, the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, and the Presiding Bishopric (see D&C 120). Those funds are spent to build and maintain temples and houses of worship, to conduct our worldwide missionary work, to translate and publish scriptures, to provide resources to redeem the dead, to fund religious education, and to support other Church purposes selected by the designated servants of the Lord.


Again, if you believe this is where that money is being spent.

Are we then free to give our tithes where we feel they will be put to better and more responsible use? In addition to being a procedural law, section 119 also appears to be a covenant. If the leaders have broken the everlasting covenant as the Book of Mormon prophets foretold they would (Mormon 8:38 for one example), maybe now all bets are off??

This is a decision for each person to make, and in truth, should be made prayerfully.

I guess do we really believe a person will get to judgement, and Christ will say “but you didn’t give it to the church [because you observed the obvious and determined they were robbing the poor like Malachi and Mormon spoke of,] and you believed it was 10% of surplus, but paid substantially more than that because you felt it the right thing to do”?

Is this the moment of Faith in Christ? In determining who he is, and how we come unto him, and how we become his disciple.
Or do we really think Christ wants us to instead provide more seed money to earn interest to build more Investment Centres?
For the Good Samaritan to have paid his money to the Levites (who walked past the robbed beaten man I might add) and expected them to go help the man?


Or, if perchance you as a "good samaritan" used "tithing" money to help a robbed beaten, do you feel guilt and go sell your wife's engagement ring to ensure you pay a full and honest tithe to the Lord?

As an aside, do we think our opinions would differ if we could see the financial accounts? Seeing for instance that 70/ General Authorities receive payments of around $130,000 per annum, and the Quorum of the 12 are reputed to be paid in the order of $600,000 per annum (not- the $ amount for the 12 is not substantiated, but it is know that credit cards are provided, accommodation, travel, housing, vehicle with driver are paid for, and they are on boards of various church owned companies, and most boards pay directors around $50k each per annum).

What you think is your decision, and between you and the Lord

For members who want to be able to say "I pay tithing" in interviews, you can donate to Church HQ any $ amount and they will send your Ward Clerk a statement which shows you have donated a tithe but does not specify how much

This is available because some people want privacy from their wards, fair enough

Someone can post the Link to this, I do not know if people Outside the USA can use this feature.

Ideally, in a church that prides itself on good works, and light over darkness, the questions can be asked.

Should members be given the information to see for themselves?
Why did they stop doing this?
What are they ashamed of?
Why isn't the money being spent (the Church is believed that have approx $30b in liquid assets earning approx $4-6b in tithes each year
UK and Canada laws require charities to show the income expendire. Both provided tithing around $120m. Of that around $20m was local country expenses, 1% was given to 10 charities around $100k each, and $100m was sent to BYU

And there I end, as with the payment of any more of my money to the Corporate LDS entity, and more to the Lords Kingdom

/end
Last edited by AussieOi on March 24th, 2013, 8:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

firend
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Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by firend »

Wow, skimmed through your posts and you have posted excellent info from what I have skimmed through. Yes, I wish members could better understand what tithing is, what the priesthood has grown into (corporation huge) and that we are only to pay tithing on our actual gain (increase)

We have a few rich in the church, and many poor.....big problem...

we have an enriched corporation with all rich leaders of material wealth, yet millions of poor.....where have I seen that before?

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Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by cartcart »

My deal is that I take whatever gross earnings I have during the year and move the decimal point just one place to get to the ten percent number. I also calculate what it would cost to take my family out to a nice dinner--a NICE dinner and I double that amount for each of the two meals I skip and pay into the fast offering fund. Once I give it to the church, it is not my concern what is done with the money--even if it goes to support BYU. It has taught me to be unselfish--probably the biggest lesson that any of us can learn. And, once I am "square with Lord" I am able to cut right to the heart of the matters of concern when I pray. He knows that I am trusted to be generous and in turn, he answers my prayers concerning my family. You may think me foolish for giving up tens and tens of thousands of dollars every year to the tithing and fast offering funds, but if it makes me happy to do so, why should anyone else care? I have a lot at stake and I am willing to part with a tenth to learn what the Lord would have me learn. I was a Bishop and I learned that the most miserable people on earth are the ones that worry about money. I feel confident that I have been blessed far beyond my paltry donations.

firend
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Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by firend »

cartcart wrote:My deal is that I take whatever gross earnings I have during the year and move the decimal point just one place to get to the ten percent number. I also calculate what it would cost to take my family out to a nice dinner--a NICE dinner and I double that amount for each of the two meals I skip and pay into the fast offering fund. Once I give it to the church, it is not my concern what is done with the money--even if it goes to support BYU. It has taught me to be unselfish--probably the biggest lesson that any of us can learn. And, once I am "square with Lord" I am able to cut right to the heart of the matters of concern when I pray. He knows that I am trusted to be generous and in turn, he answers my prayers concerning my family. You may think me foolish for giving up tens and tens of thousands of dollars every year to the tithing and fast offering funds, but if it makes me happy to do so, why should anyone else care? I have a lot at stake and I am willing to part with a tenth to learn what the Lord would have me learn. I was a Bishop and I learned that the most miserable people on earth are the ones that worry about money. I feel confident that I have been blessed far beyond my paltry donations.

The whole key to what you said that stuck out huge was it makes you happy to do so....in other words you actually want to give to The Lord which is rare. Most seem to not want to give to god, but only do so out of obligation for various self seeking motives and self fears.

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Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by Fairminded »

There is not much to say aside from: Thank you for this. In all my time on this forum, this stands out as one of the best posts I've seen. And I've had the pleasure of reading many thoughtful and informative posts.

Not only is the information itself incredibly well presented, thoughtful, and relevant, but like with all good truths it cuts right to the heart of the issue, laying it bare. From there, knowing the history of tithing, what the Lord expects of it, and how He has responded to it being misused in the past, we can look at our present circumstances forearmed with knowledge, the word of scripture and latter day revelation, and ready to dig deeper into these issues and then seek personal revelation.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I've felt for a long time that there is something wrong with the Church's handling of tithes. Recent highly controversial issues (that don't need to be mentioned due to already being overrepresented on the forum :) ) have made that seem all the more apparent.

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Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by AussieOi »

Maybe I could have elaborated on how those Old Testament tithing references most often used to justify tithing, don't actually apply to us

Abraham- paid once, of a spoil of war, the excess beyond his needs. And to this unusual non "church" character. There wasn't another recorded instance of this. It appears a one off related to the war spoils

Jacob- he didn't pay. He Promised to pay 10% if god gave him land and goods. There was No record of him every paying a tithe. In his life the request/ promise wasn't fulfilled until after he died. There is no record anyone paid that tithe promise. it was a statement of future intent IF the lord did something, and we have no record of it being delivered or fulfilled. Jacob therefore can't be used as a reference point for tithing

Malachi- as we have seen that about the Levite Priests

Christ did away with so much anyway

Did he do away with OT style tithing? Maybe not. Malachi 3 was spoken by him in 3 Nephi 24.

This is really interesting. Again, the Book of Mormon was written for us (members) in this day and someone wlese will do a better job than me of dissecting this chapter

But the Book of Mormon we know was never going to be read by other people basically. Mormon knew that. LDS read primarily

So was the inclusion of the Malachi reference a branch to Jews today? After all the Book is to prove to the Jew that Jesus is the Christ, as well as the Gentile. There isn't that much in the BofM that is written to the Jew. I mean its a rebuke of the Levites and their withholding tithing.

Maybe its a lecture to today's Jews that they should be paying tithe as before if they aren't. And if they are, chances are its not being used properly.
I know I'm backfilling to fit my paradigm, but if this argument was presented to me I'd say it is plausible. Perhaps some has another layer to 3 Ne 24?
I mean we read that the Levites must offer a sacrifice in the temple before he returns. So they are out there. Could this actually be one of the most relevant "to the Jews" parable/ similies in the book of Mormon?

And/ or, to the Nephites, was it a slap in the face instruction that the tithing they might have been paying (not recorded in the BofM) was to be given to the poor once every 3 years?

Or is it a slap in the face to the Latter-day administrators, who (appear) to be doing what the Levites did? sitting on the money and not trusting the Lord?

Or was it simply a statement to the people at that time (for it doesn't actually say anything to anyone about paying a tithe, just says some people robbed god and the Levites will be refined like silver and gold

Maybe we don't know? I'll look into this one, to see really, what it is saying (note: will be extremely careful how I read into this, because chances are most references will simply say "oh this says pay tithing", where I don't exactly see that

Maybe the religious/ state leaders up until then had forced grievous taxes upon their people and this was the better way? We know they didn't record part of all Christ taught, although you'd think this is something that Mormon would record, seeing how so much of the theme of the Book of Mormon is - as he says in Verse 5

5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger, and fear not me, saith the Lord of Hosts.

Would the person at that day listening to Christ ask why he is talking about someone in Jerusalem they didn't know about (for they didn't have tithing per say to their knowledge- Malachi wasn't in their records) and that he is talking to members 2000 years later- who themselves were given their own covenant in relation to tithes? That hardly seems efficient or logical. It is likely it was an instruction given to them- and also perhaps a warning that those who lead tend to step away from the giving. Hardly fair to rebuke the Nephites for not paying tithing, when this may have been the 1st they'de heard of the principle/ rule/ law. (again- tithing was 2/3rds to support the Levite priests.)

So, 3 Nephi 24 is your call as to why it is included, and what the key message is.

And was it to the Nephites about their leadership being like the Levites not spending the tithing, or the same message to us today, or a message TO the Levites when it comes offering in righteousnes time?
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Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by laronius »

Wow AussieOI, that was a lot of work for someone who has decided not to pay tithing. :-?

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Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by drjme »

yes, it's a very good compliation and analysis of the actual tithing situation.

generally every instance quoted by 'It's 10% of everything forever and ever" quote the scriptures well out of context. and thats really all they have to justify it. The command to tithe in the scriptures was a was a requirement under 'the law'. I find it interesting to try and live the higher law as we are now required, yet cling to facets of the 'old law' and get drawn back to living under that law and the characteristics that come with it, namely rule keeping, legalism etc.

What I mean by this, is the reasons people pay it, as almost an attempt to defer punishment/pay towards salvation. So many comments like these:

"Well, I'm going to keep paying mine because I don't want to be condemned. and I'm not willing to risk it."
"That's your choice to not pay 10% on net, but you'll probably end up in the fire and brimstone."

comments like these are either people trapped in still living the Law or having trouble switching between the letter and spirit of the Law.
The point that is missed is, God requires All you own. not in a material sense, but in a spiritual sense. I can't understand how a celestial law (the quote along the lines of: "under the celestial law, all are required to give 10% of net" ) can be based on a compulsory requirement under the oldest and least of the Laws. It's inconsistent with trying to live the higher Law, it should not have to be a command that we fearfully obey to gain entrance into the celestial kingdom, but a recommendation that we are lovingly compelled to live, to build the kingdom of God.

IMHO a great example of it can be found in a story related to me by my wife about someone she knows. A new minister came to town and needed a vehicle. this couple had an old car and just purchased a new one that they had saved for and was the exact one they had wanted for a long time. They thought 'well the minister needed a vehicle' so they prayed about it along the lines of "God thank you for our new vehicle so that we can provide our old vehicle to the minister to perform His duties to you" they were happy and blessed to be able to do this. The problem was after they prayed They both received the same response back from God, being, "No, no, I want you to give Him the NEW car, that you have saved for, the one you have always wanted, I want you to give THAT one to him". Both extremely shocked and amazed they were being asked to do this. NOT by the minister, but by the spirit. But they done it. Gave the minister their brand new car that they had wanted for so long and saved up for. and went back to driving their old run down car. Well they were blessed with an amazing miracle a few months later that allowed them to get an even better car than they one they gave away. There was no command to give, no fearful retribution if they did not act. they were asked by God to do it, and they love him, so they were compelled by love to help build the kingdom.

when people pay it out of fear, because they are commanded to, they don't freely give of it, they think they are, but as long as you harbor any thoughts at all relating to the above comments, you are not freely giving, you are attempting to buy your salvation, In an extreme sense relegating God to the level of extortionist, Him saying "pay me, Or die". He doesn't need our stuff, but we need to give it to Him freely to show him that He is more important to us than our stuff, and because we want to contribute freely to the building of his kingdom, because we believe in it, not because he commanded us to.
Wow AussieOI, that was a lot of work for someone who has decided not to pay tithing.
it's a good reference for anyone who wants to know more about tithing.

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Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by AussieOi »

laronius wrote:Wow Ato ieOI, that was a lot of work for someone who has decided not to pay tithing. :-?
How does one respond to a sanctimonious person?

And you are trying to obfuscate. You know I pay tithing

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Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by laronius »

AussieOi wrote:
laronius wrote:Wow AussieOi, that was a lot of work for someone who has decided not to pay tithing. :-?
How does one respond to a sanctimonious person?

And you are trying to obfuscate. You know I pay tithing
All I was getting at was that you mentioned in a previous post that you no longer pay tithing to the church but instead to other non-profit organizations, which is genreous but its not tithing. Tithing are funds the Lord uses to build his kingdom. Paying it, of course, doesn't release us from our obligations to support other quality non-profit organizations but they aren't an acceptable sustitute either.

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Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by eric »

laronius wrote:Wow AussieOI, that was a lot of work for someone who has decided not to pay tithing. :-?
Laronius - impressive indeed for a guy who cannot spell! Aussie is rising in my opinion - of course, that's not hard to do from the basement of opinion....LOL :ymhug:

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Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by AussieOi »

You clearly never read it did you.
I believe that what I am doing IS paying tithing and IS building his kingdom.
Even more, I believe what most members are paying isn't tithing payment but a bribe in return for blessings, and to qualify to enter the temple.

As for building the lords kingdom, I explained that I believe that I am doing this

How can giving to these good organisations not be the lord's kingdom

The sad truth is tithing as given to the corporate church does not build his kingdom

It is either not spent, or used to build Mammon

But I don't think you can process all that and you are afraid to look for the lords kingdom outside of 'the church'

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Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by eric »

laronius wrote:
AussieOi wrote:
laronius wrote:Wow AussieOi, that was a lot of work for someone who has decided not to pay tithing. :-?
How does one respond to a sanctimonious person?

And you are trying to obfuscate. You know I pay tithing
All I was getting at was that you mentioned in a previous post that you no longer pay tithing to the church but instead to other non-profit organizations, which is genreous but its not tithing. Tithing are funds the Lord uses to build his kingdom. Paying it, of course, doesn't release us from our obligations to support other quality non-profit organizations but they aren't an acceptable sustitute either.
Yeah - um, that would be one of those covenanty thingies that we blah, blah about in the temples..... You know, building the Lord's kingdom - and not bad-mouthing the Brethren over how those consecrated funds are spent?

When are the mods going to throw the anti's off the forum?? I was just reading about how the LDSAVOW mods did just this thing recently..... Kudos to them!! :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

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Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by AussieOi »

Hi Eric

Please enter the actual discussion and answer this.

Do you believe it is acceptable how the Church has lied to us by deliberately removing a very critical definer in relation to what tithing is, and how it evolved from being of surplus, to being the of income?

Do you believe this is honest? Do you believe it is good the way none of the original background to tithing is actually discussed to members?

The Lonenzo Snow Manual

I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child ... shall pay onetenth of their income as a tithing.

Teachings of Lorenzo Snow manual, page 160 (and just what lies in the ellipses?)

I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay onetenth of their income as a tithing.
Conference Report Oct 1899 page 28

Eric

Why did they_deliberately_remove that important point?

What was so wrong that in a 16 page chapter they had to remove those 3 critical words Eric?

Why Eric, why ar we an institution that does things like this Eric?

Please tell me how this is not corrupt Eric.

Please explain how that can be anything_other_than deliberate deception.
I think we know.

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Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by AussieOi »

Can I also ask for an honest answer if you learned that

A) 70s earn around $130k pa
B) The 12 earn around $600k per year

I want an honest answer to this too please.

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Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by AussieOi »

Can you and STT or anyone else please tell me how

1) Giving the money to carefully chosen charities doesn't quality as building the Lords Kingdom. Why should I not consider this to be tithing?

If it isn't, why is it better for the Lord for his money to sit in a bank and do nothing, but when the interest is spent it is wasted on fine sanctuaries, than to give it away to the Lord via other parts of his kingdom?

WHat scripture do we LDS have that I am not aware of, that overrides this principle

"I was hungry and you gave me meat; I was thirsty, and you gave me drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in; naked, and you clothed me; I was sick, and you visited me; I was in prison and you came unto me. Inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me." (Matthew 25:35,36, 40)

"When you are in the service of your fellow beings you are only in the service of your God." (Mosiah 2:17)


I'll even make it easier for you. Please tell me whether

i) I am robbing God, or
ii) The Church is robbing god similar to Malachi 3?

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AussieOi
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Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by AussieOi »

Also, if you can, please demonstrate how I have not been overpaying for the last 20 years by paying it on Full income, as against on surplus?

Again, Orson Hyde
If it requires all man can earn to support himself and his family, he is not tithed at all. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare

John Corril
Yet the law requires or enjoins a consecration of the overplus, after reserving for himself and family to carry on his business." (A Brief History of the Church of Latter Day Saints, pg. 45)

2 Cor 8
13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:

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AussieOi
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Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by AussieOi »

Even easier for you

Please show me where a single one of these LDS Cultural assumptions can be backed up by a single scripture.

That should be easy to do surely.

1. Tithing is the Lord's money;

2. A tithe constitutes ten percent of our total earnings;

3. We must always make sure to pay tithing first before paying our bills;

4. Tithing money goes to help the poor and needy;

5. Paying a full tithe God promises to bless us individually;

6. Tithe paying is a commandment that every member of the church is expected to obey regardless of circumstances;

7. Tithing must be paid before anything else even if it means your children will go hungry.



As far as I am aware none of those assumptions can be backed up by scripture and all of them are article of faith for LDS. As in "My husband lost his job but we are faithful tithe payers so we'll be alright"

One scripure please

I'll give you as long as you want

Nephi294
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Posts: 151

Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by Nephi294 »

Aussie,

Most members pay their tithing as they have been instructed to do so by modern day Prophets and Apostles. I have put God first when it comes to paying tithing. I have been blessed beyond my wildest dreams. For you to accuse The Church of lying is an APOSTATE move my friend. You claim to serve in the Bishopric? If I was your Stake President and knew the things you were saying on a public forum about The Church we would be having a meeting my friend and you would be removed from leadership!

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AussieOi
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Posts: 6137
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by AussieOi »

Nephi294 wrote:Aussie,

Most members pay their tithing as they have been instructed to do so by modern day Prophets and Apostles.

Yes, I love a church that has continuing revelation
And the process is, when we receive new revelation (ESPECIALLY) revelation which amends or changes previous changes or laws, it is written down and presented to the church and voted upon.
So, please clarify to me exactly how you believe we have been instructed, and please show me the scripture that says to do that


I have put God first when it comes to paying tithing.

Amen Brother/ (Sister?)
Thats the way
Of course, I assume you are saying you pay god before you pay your income tax liabilities
Because if you didn't you'd be putting the IRS first.
And if you are self employed, you are paying god before you are paying creditors and business operating expenses.
But you said you put god first so I assume you pay tithing on the full 10% before you pay rent and stuff like that

Of course, after reading the above 5 posts, some might suggest you might possibly be paying a bribe to god by paying in a way other than the scriptures clearly tell us

Here's one...Do you have the faith to pay him as D&C119 instructs us?



I have been blessed beyond my wildest dreams.

Thats nice
I haven't, well, not because I paid tithing
I have been blessed because god in his mercy decided to bless me
Last dispensation Tithing is just a simple obligation to fulfil those 4 funding needs.
All we are told is that the destroying angel will pass us and we won't burn as stubble at the last day.
You aren't linking god rewards to payment are you?
You do know the gospel doesn't work that way don't you?


For you to accuse The Church of lying is an APOSTATE move my friend.

I'm sorry. You tell me if deliberaly removing that sentence is not a deliberate action to change the intended nature of exactly what it said, then what is it?
If its not lying, what is it?
And if you don't believe the church has lied before and won't again, I can't communicate with you



You claim to serve in the Bishopric? If I was your Stake President and knew the things you were saying on a public forum about The Church we would be having a meeting my friend and you would be removed from leadership!


Yeah, nice threat.
Don't worry, I know thats how it works
IF.

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ajax
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Location: Pf, Texas

Re: Summary of all Tithing threads? (Long)

Post by ajax »

Nice gathering of information here Aussie.

I'm not sure why people seem to be so threatened by this.

A Proverb from Joseph Smith:
"There is one thing under the sun which I have learned and that is that the righteousness of man is sin because it exacteth over much; nevertheless, the righteousness of God is just, because it exacteth nothing at all, but sendeth the rain on the just and the unjust, seed time and harvest, for all of which man is ungrateful." (TPJS, pg 317)
I also like this from Joseph,
Covenant of Tithing

Section Two 1834-37, p.70

"On the evening of the 29th of November, I united in prayer with Brother Oliver for the continuance of blessings. After giving thanks for the relief which the Lord had lately sent us by opening the hearts of the brethren from the east, to loan us $430; after commencing and rejoicing before the Lord on this occasion, we agreed to enter into the following covenant with the Lord, viz:

That if the Lord will prosper us in our business and open the way before us that we may obtain means to pay our debts, that we be not troubled nor brought into disrepute before the world, nor His people; after that, of all that He shall give unto us, we will give a tenth to be bestowed upon the poor in His Church, or as He shall command; and that we will be faithful over that which he has entrusted to our care, that we may obtain much; and that our children after us shall remember to observe this sacred and holy covenant; and that our children, and our children's children, may know of the same, we have subscribed our names with our own hands." (TPJS, pg 70).
Hmm, so they promised to pay tithes after their business prospered and all debts paid.

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