Government and the war in Heaven.

[Moses]

It's just difficult for one born to a life of boot licking to understand freedom. Its probably genetic anyway. The more independent sorts left Europe a hundred years ago.

Happy to hear your chains are resting lightly

The ones who left were the ones who were the quitters. They were the ones who saw a problem and left** the others to sort it out. In an army they are called deserters. The ones who stayed behind eventually sorted it out without the help of the quitters. **Now they are complaining about their new land

You are the ones complaining about not being free. you are the ones in chains. all those things you have to pay for.

If you stopped and thought about what you do have and made the most of it instead of worrying about what you are missing out on you might see the sky , smell the flowers and get a life. Man your so precious. Be men and stop blaming the government for your inadequecy. So you pay for car registration. and other fees. You have a choice. Dont buy a car. Dont use the roads. if you dont want to contribute:)

yes I am comfortable as I feed my family and pay my taxes so others can have a little of what I enjoy. I do receive benefits from living in the land I chose to live in. Namely , Beauty, great life style, great standard of living.( earned by my own hands Safe streets usually,the envy of all who visit. Many choose to stay. Yes even people from the good old US of A, mind you those who come its probably in their genes to move:)

Some of us are so busy that we dont have the time to consider those things that seem to be weighing you guys down. It doesnt matter. Live a good life, the Government won't affect your eternal life anyway.

[AussieOi]

I would love it if the government did a single payer skateboard program

gets better

if anyone cut up a plank of wood and stuck 4 wheels on it, they'd be sent to jail. anyone offering piggyback rides would have the FDA shut them down too

[AussieOi]

Found it!

The fable concerns a grasshopper who has spent the warm months singing away while the ant (or ants in some editions) worked to store up food for winter. After the winter has come, the grasshopper finds itself dying of hunger, and upon asking the ant for food is only rebuked for its idleness. The story is used to teach the virtues of hard work and saving, and the perils of improvidence. Some versions of the fable state a moral at the end, along the lines of:
Idleness brings want
To work today is to eat tomorrow
It is best to prepare for the days of necessity

cute

i must say tho chelc, isn't it predictable that little ant works, while bad grasshopper is idle?

what if it were not that simple?

[AussieOi]

I have to side with the prophets on this one.

Me too. Yeah, like King Benjamin. Mosiah 4

16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.

21 And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.

22 And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.

23 I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.

24 And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.

25 And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.

26 And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you—that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God—I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.

[AussieOi]

There are always plenty of slavish people who don't mind having someone else make decisions for them.

I've always found that an interesting one. like those who don't make the decision and take it to the lord, but rather say "we'll leave that to the lord". Or "the lord told us to, so we did". now i don't mean to mock or belittle the truth of the principle, but my experiences are that a great many LDS- and christians in general, are taking the ultimate cop out of responsibility by always saying "the lord told us to do it", rather than taking it to the lord and saying "we're going to do this unless you tell us otherwise".

take it a step further, the slavish people, you mean like, those people who lived in the USA who weren't the signaturies of the constitution and weren't part of the first congress?


we believe in being subject to......

its always a fine line. granted, i agree all the same


The fact is, you probably can't name a dozen things you can do that isn't regulated in some way by government. Basically, you're free to do what the government allows. No more. If that's all you want, fine. The problem is many people aren't that subservient.


this is arguably the KEY point in this entire debate (as we discussed in the thread on chavez and venezuala, and congress taking away your SS benefits). Basically, ANY system that has any form of taxation, is a centralist system. lets not kid ourselves guys, we live under socialism. the same socialism that "they" warned us about.

The only difference is that this one appears different because it doesn't follow the Marx/ Engels version of socialism, which is the eradiction of institutions. and that is because the state doesn't need to. it has our obedience, we worship it.

Your comment >>>>>>They've discovered how to vote benefits for themselves out of the pockets of everyone else<< is not entirely true. I argue that this is exactly what government does. it taxes and redistributes in order to invest, develop, improve, and offer opportunity for its citizens. heck, why do you think it exists? why do you even think you have this great constitution and system?

It sounds like some of you guys want the model where you are farmers on a property, not beholden to anyone and hey all power to that. However, while that might have worked in Upper Vermont in 1604, if you want to participate in the society we have today, it costs.

You work, they take, you get some back. i'm all for minimal government, and no income tax, and people supporting other people in need, but unless you totally stop paying your income tax, then don't tell those who do, and look at ways to distribute that taxation for the betterment of society in general.

we all started as beggers in this system. We went to schools funded by someone else. we drove on roads initially funded by someone else. Drank water from a tap built form taxation. this is what government is about. and over the 60 years it averages out.

Sometimes your up, sometimes your down. when you are down those who are up can kick in, when you are down you can be helped. sounds like our gospel model to me.

Now if the LDG's only stopped spending your money on bombs and bullets there would be plenty for everyone.

Is it strange that some people decry this "socialism"- I should not have to support other people with my money they are lazy welfare bludgers- but they are happy having other peoples taxation building other nations like Iraq and Afghanistan, or donated to Israel in the form of more bombs and bullets. All we ask is that maybe, what if, couldn't, THAT money, be spent on our own citizens?

The masses are asses. How else can you explain the popularity of Paris Hilton, the ratings of "American Idol," or the fact that "Three's Company" stayed on the air for 8 years?

well now you understand the mindset of those in power. thats how they think. If average joe sixpack was left to send in a check to help the poor there would be poor kids lying in gutters and families destitute, not to mention societal breakdown, crime, urban ghettos. He'd spend it at wal-mart. Oh, hang on, you mean that taxation can alleviate some of those unwelcome side-effects of a failed society?

If you participate in this society, and partake of the spoils of it, such as by using ANY public infrastructure you have not directly paid for with a direct tax, please do not suggest to those who favour universal health, or welfare support for those in need, that they are socialist. maybe they are just good economists trying to improve the way the taxation revenue is spent? Oh, and by the way.......better a socialist then a hypocrite and a thief.

[AussieOi]

You can't even go to the bathroom without the government!

I agree 100% with your entire post about the control of government in our lives.

now, with that beaurocracy in mind. if we can't convince the govt to cut taxation and spending, isn't is logical that we seek ways to redistribute that revenue that can benefit ALL of society?

[AussieOi]

If a group of people want to form a community and ALL agree to a tax then great! More power to them. But when this group forces others to participate then a principle, an eternal law is broken.

okay, good point. if we were going ex-nihilo. but, everyone who is in this system, was taking before they received. ask yourself. in the presence of private schools, if a parent sends their child to a state school it is through consolidated taxation that the school is funded. therefore the child is consuming a benefit, which, shock horror, is the fruit of someone elses "confiscated" labour. dear me, how could a parent let that happen.

you mean kids who participate in our system, then goto work and pay tax, were actually recipients of collective forced taxation?

why would a society allow that? what, do they regard it as an investment perhaps?

your point is right, if we were an island. how do you think your glorious founders intended this new republic to be funded? um, er, taxation perhaps? and what, did they think that everyone who was to pay these taxes was going to want to voluntarily pay that tax? yeah right. whether its on what you spend or what you earn or what you invest, its tax. tax tax tax.

the way i read it, you did all agree to it. those who came along 200 years later and don't like it need to go find another country, or secede themselves. And then pay back all they've received from others as well.

Does that justify the drink?? I know, I'm weak. When Joseph Smith had his operation he denied the alcohol for pain relief. For him, the end (less pain) didn't justify the means (drinking alcohol). Now if he had chosen to take the alcohol, he could have given a sad story about the pain he would have had to go through without it. But it wouldn't have made it right in his mind.

poor example. read history on the church, the night before his martydom. you'll find it interesting.

[AussieOi]

New Orleans and Katrina was a prime example of what the welfare system has done to people. They sat waiting for the government to come rescue them....when it was within their own power to be prepared and take responsibility for each other. Don't misunderstand me....I have compassion for what so many of those people have gone through. I lived in the Florida Panhandle for 20 years and experienced what hurricanes can do first hand. So....everyone needs to get their act together so we aren't sitting on our roof tops waiting to be rescued...but rather, we can be amongst those who will be able to render service because we are personally prepared. Simple doctrine as far as I'm concerned.

what the welfare system has done to people or done to blacks?

I'm 20000 miles away and even i know that's crap. Let me restate whats being said here. That is, that "liberal" (ie democrat) social policy had rendered the black poor unable or unwilling to work, content to collect a government check, and thus, had made them incapable of saving themselves. And we as LDS can recognise this from miles away because we know all about the welfare state mentality.

Only 4600 households out of 130,000 were on welfare, and that welfare was about $3000 (or $2500 US pa). 40% in the 9th (?) ward were Full time workers and travelled 45mins + to work each day. i'd say they had a work ethic. the reason most of these people around the dome lived in slums was because superhighways moved them (designed ot move whites from work to white suburbs more quickly). and then white developers (yes, read Stupid white men, there is an element of truth in there) moved them again, and we have the ghetto. of course its not our fault, but New Orleans was a functional working class stable community at one stage. Read up on this concept called "slum clearance".

Why didn't the blacks live in the white suburbs? it was your own FHA and VA lending criteria (no blacks)


I hear you Tash. but its an elaboration of the canard that "people are poor because they are lazy" or, "if you work hard and save you can participate in the great american dream" what a joke.

There is a 3rd world because there is a 1st world. and there are poor blacks in poor suburbs because they were once our slaves and we kept our foot on their throats for long enough to entrench ourselves as the ruling power.

poor white people are crack users and hookers too. if they only worked hard they'd be like us. thats why i loved that book "deer hunting for jesus" it spelled it out. no matter how hard you work, and you can have 2 jobs too, you just aren't going to get ahead.


If "they" deserve what they get -- up to and including homelessness, starvation and death -- then we who do not suffer that same fate also deserve what we get?

In this manner, those individuals (alarming number of christians ironically) who desperately seek to be reassured of our own moral superiority and virtue can get a quick fix -- even if we must write off the lives of a large number of people to do so.

But they are only the lives of "those" people: we already despised them, and now we have "legitimate" reasons for our contempt. Because we don't have much already (as the system is screwing us) we take it out on them.

This endless cycle of self-perpetuating contempt for the objects of our scorn, for those whom we dehumanize and eject from the human race altogether, destroys all those who partake of it.

Thank the Lord that Christ went through with it. That bitter cup. Not my will oh father, thy will. He went along with it, and we get immortality and eternal life for no charge. If thou would take this bitter cup from me.

Success in our culture is the result of institutionalized favoritism. Whats wrong with trying to level the playing field. Isn't that christianity?

welfare. its evil eh. creates dependency. I just wonder. Do you think perhaps that some of those big fat black Negro Mumma's at the superdome might have been there with their autistic kids, and maybe simply had no place to go in life? Maybe just waiting for someone to help them? Offer a hand, a bus?

And i wonder if there were any of those war widows there too? yeah, war widows. those old ladies who receive some of this pernicious welfare stolen from your income tax. A pension is welfare in its purest form. I wonder if there were any war widows at the Superdome? yeah, i bet they sat waiting for someone to come and rescue them.

[shadow]

Buffalogirl, Moses, and Aussie. You all miss the point.

The point is choice or force. How is it all related to the war in Heaven? What principles were to be broken in Lucifer's plan? How is that war continued today? My guess is in force vs choice.

You fine people obviously believe that to feed the poor and hungry and care for the sick one must go through a 3rd party, the government. That my friends is pathetic on so many levels.

And just to repeat to Moses, Aussie and Army of Truth. Yes, the United States of America is a socialist country. I have never said "our" system is better than yours. I simply state that a socialist state is against principle. Eternally it won't stand. I don't praise the "system". I know who's system it is, and it ain't Gods. I believe it was Lucifer that said he would own them.

[buffalo_girl]

Thank heavens for a politician with the priesthood!

At last, a free citizen can purchase medical insurance without government intervention! I'm still not clear on who is being subsidized - the 'free citizen' or the insurance company. It's ok if it's the insurance company because that's 'capitalism'.

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=22756

Penalties went into effect this year for Massachusetts residents who do not have health insurance.

The penalties, assessed in the form of monetary fines, range from zero to $912 for an entire year without coverage. Analysts have called the program over-regulated and unenforceable, but a state panel already has recommended the penalties be increased.

The penalties are applicable only to adults judged by the Commonwealth Health Insurance Connector Authority, the agency that oversees the program, to be able to afford private insurance coverage. Fines accrue every month an eligible individual is not insured and would be due as a part of the tax filing process for the year.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

I have to side with the prophets on this one.

Me too. Yeah, like King Benjamin. Mosiah 4

16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.

21 And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.

22 And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.

23 I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.

24 And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.

25 And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.

26 And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you—that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God—I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.

Agreed, we should choose to give to those that are in need, and if we are unable to help, to say in our hearts, that we would have given if we had something to give. Although I have always been able to give to help others in one way or another, even though others are helping me...

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

Thank heavens for a politician with the priesthood!

At last, a free citizen can purchase medical insurance without government intervention! I'm still not clear on who is being subsidized - the 'free citizen' or the insurance company. It's ok if it's the insurance company because that's 'capitalism'.

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=22756

Penalties went into effect this year for Massachusetts residents who do not have health insurance.

The penalties, assessed in the form of monetary fines, range from zero to $912 for an entire year without coverage. Analysts have called the program over-regulated and unenforceable, but a state panel already has recommended the penalties be increased.

The penalties are applicable only to adults judged by the Commonwealth Health Insurance Connector Authority, the agency that oversees the program, to be able to afford private insurance coverage. Fines accrue every month an eligible individual is not insured and would be due as a part of the tax filing process for the year.

This is the 'force' that I cannot support in the least!

[buffalo_girl]

They sat waiting for the government to come rescue them....when it was within their own power to be prepared and take responsibility for each other.

Now, where was it that they should have been? The Amtrak train left New Orleans EMPTY the night before Katrina hit Sunday. Many people trapped in the flood did not have cars. AMTRAK offered to fill its passenger cars with those unable to find rides out of town. Someone passed down the word to deny AMTRAK's offer. Odd, that!

Let's all pray none of us is forced to choose between 'sitting' on the peak of our homes with flood waters swirling around us "waiting for help" or swimming to 'safety' in alligator infested water. The body count was somewhat less than it would have been had not those who chose to 'act' independently left their safe perches rather than doing nothing but wait and die waiting. The alligators reduced the body count considerably.

Many people in the Ninth Ward were fourth generation home owners. Probably a better percentage than many of us.

Shame on us for making any judgment on those people! I fear the Lord will judge us because of our hardheartedness.

[ChelC]

Blame, blame, blame.

Shadow is absolutely right that the issue is the same dang thing that we faced coming to this earth. I don't believe those who followed Lucifer wanted to be evil, I think they were deceived and I think a lot of people are deceived now. What is evil? I think it's the antithesis of good. What are the traits of goodness? Gentleness, meekness, love, service... there is not force. Who cares whether the people in New Orleans were trained to sit and wait for help. They may be partially to blame, but there are many others with bloody hands. Big nasty money grubbing freaks who got there on the backs of the workhorses... they are to blame, and guess what system they want? Socialism, Communism, Greed, Hate, Force, any which way to get the power and gain they seek and all of us who've partaken of the piddly spoils or failed to do our part in changing it have helped them do it. Socialism is Satan's conterfeit plan. It looks loving, but it isn't. It's hollow, and it's a hell of a good place to start milking away freedoms and training people up to be good little slaves.

The fact is that your government sucks and my government sucks. The Consitutional form of government intended by God and the founders is gone. The more it slips away, the closer all of us get to a hopeless state that can only be Redeemed by the One I pray holds it together as long as possible to alleviate suffering.

If you want a friggin' pizza and I don't, do I need to share the cost of it? How about if two people want the pizza and I don't? How about three people? How many people does it take before you suddenly have the right to force me?

I say you never have that right, and until you can tell me how many people it takes to grant you a right that you never had, you are fooling yourself.

How about if you leave my share of pizza on the porch when I'm saying I don't want any damn pizza, then I have my share, I share in the spoils, so then do I have to pay for it?

Your reasoning is flawed, it's wrong. It will never be right, but geez if I don't want to order some cheese bread from little caesar's right now...

[buffalo_girl]

You fine people obviously believe that to feed the poor and hungry and care for the sick one must go through a 3rd party, the government.

No, shadow, I'm asking youif you are willing to 'feed the poor and hungry and care for the sick and afflicted'. I believe that is what King Benjamin was asking of his people in order for them to be the 'sons and daughters of Christ'.

Mosiah 4:
26 And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you—that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God—I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.

The Resurrected Lord said:
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;
22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day.

Are we willing to DO the Lord's will - to follow His example - in order to become a ZION People? So much rancor evidenced amongst ourselves in this discussion would suggest not. Sad.

[shadow]

Yes Buffalo, I am very willing to help the poor and feed the hungry and I "do". But good night Buffalo, surely you can see this discussion is about whether it's right for the government to force someone to help?? I'm suggesting that it's not the role of government to redistribute the wealth. That's all. Don't read more into that than there is.

Also, your comment about insurance companies being capitalists; they are socialists. Just like Wal-Mart is a socialist company. They rely on the government to keep their business going. The Wal-Mart in my town got some pretty hefty tax breaks to do business in my community. That's socialism.

[buffalo_girl]

I agree with you, shadow. I'm extremely weary of the 'government' in every aspect of our lives. Believe me! I've done everything I can to hold my elected reps accountable for their conduct in Washington and in our State Legislature. They seem to want to be evil and go along with Lucifer's intent to control and oppress.

I guess I'm beginning to think the only way through this is to become a ZION People. We need to know we are being guided by the Holy Spirit in every aspect of our lives. We need to know who we can TRUST in the Church and outside the Church. We need to continue standing for the Principles upon which Freedom is founded - those Truths we uphold in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Not until we truly commit to the Principles of the Gospel by living those Principles will we unite as a People. I've been witness to too much of the attitude of:
The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

I'm ready to throw out the government with the bath water. It wouldn't hurt my feelings to see all our reps standing in unemployment lines waiting for me to give them a 'real' job.

[AussieOi]

If you want a friggin' pizza and I don't, do I need to share the cost of it? How about if two people want the pizza and I don't? How about three people? How many people does it take before you suddenly have the right to force me?.

the pizza example is made all the harder because those who eventually decide they don't want to pay for someone elses pizza have usually been gorging on pizza for 20 odd years themselves.

what i'm saying is, can in all logic one give slices of pizza to the dogs (military) and regard it as acceptable use of taxation, while saying that to give those very same pieces of pizza to the poor instead is somehow taking away my freedom.

its either NO taxation, and NO participation, or using it in a better way

[ChelC]

I get the better way argument, but government is simply a sucky guy for the job for starters. Also, it isn't redistribution to the poor, because the beareaucrats will still take their cut, so it's just more taxes. Taxes are never raised by saying, "We really need room in our budget for 10,000 office chairs at $800 a pop and 16,000 toilet seats at $100 a pop." Or even, "Chelsea's mom works for Rural Development and they REALLY need some Eddie Bauer jackets embossed with their logo... again."

Tax is always increased because of some sob story that needs changed and then it goes someplace else and half gets lost in overhead expenses.

There are necessary jobs for the feds to do and necessary jobs for state and local government and extremely necessary jobs left to communities. Let the feds live up to their outlined duties and then get them the heck out of my life. They are good at defense, they are good at making sure our freeways connect at the state lines, probably. They suck rocks when it comes to welfare, health care or many numbers of silly things they do.

I will even give you that there's a weak spot in my force argument, and that is Moroni killing the people who wouldn't fight for liberty... of course, the driving force behind that was to protect liberty so i think it counts in our favor anyway.

[AussieOi]

Buffalogirl,
The point is choice or force. How is it all related to the war in Heaven? What principles were to be broken in Lucifer's plan? How is that war continued today? My guess is in force vs choice.

but of course our choice comes with a consequence. and i'd submit that in some instances they are 2 ends of the same stick.

You fine people obviously believe that to feed the poor and hungry and care for the sick one must go through a 3rd party, the government. That my friends is pathetic on so many levels.

on the one level its human nature to look the other way and not help. so people suffer. under the governments which we live under, power ends up being centralised within cartels and the powerful who have used indentured labour and monopolies of labour and supply, to control our earning and spending abilities. the government you have was supposedly given by god. you know, of the people, by the people, and for the people.

maybe i'll just emphasise some of those words. OF, BY, and FOR.

government is to serve people. it uses what some here call socialism to achieve its requirements.

its funny. some people will let there be a draft, where some poor kid has to go and die for some rich people who had a disagreement, and thats not compulsion. neither is paying levies, sales tax, payroll tax, group tax, road tax etc etc, and that type of compulsion is fine, but paying income tax somehow takes away our freedom and is luciferian.

And just to repeat to Moses, Aussie and Army of Truth. Yes, the United States of America is a socialist country. I have never said "our" system is better than yours. I simply state that a socialist state is against principle. Eternally it won't stand. I don't praise the "system". I know who's system it is, and it ain't Gods. I believe it was Lucifer that said he would own them.

of course it won't stand. all i am saying is that this eternal kingdom might look more like this socialism (less the "ism") than many here think.

Don't you see that any system of government with any degree of taxation uses force, or compulsion, to manage its affairs?

as for having the choice made for you somehow taking away our freedom, well, i thought we taught our kids that the united order was the lords way but the members couldn't live the higher law so we got tithing.

our existence is about being under obligation and doing what we are told to do, whether we like it or not.

from the simple traffic light to our eternal salvation. christ and the cup, god has laws he has to abide by i am sure. what, we get to heaven and we don't have to obey any laws? ah, but you say oh its all about compulsion, if you don't do something they'll come for you, they'll force you. Well, whats the difference, being forced to do something or having to do something? you still have to do it or there will be a consequence.

hows this one. "repent, or you must suffer even as i have, which pain is so exquisite you know not" D&C19. i mean, is that bordering on coercion, compulsion, or just motivation? some could ask why should there be a punishment if one doesn't want to participate?

Why can't one you opt out and say fine, i don't want the reward, but why should i get the consequence?

So why is income tax wrong to some "because they steal my labour and i have no say in it", while we know any and all taxation does that, so what is it? is it the compulsion of not having the choice to not pay? not having the choice not to with consequence now, or consequence later. same thing isn't it?

now of course lucifers plan was most likely horrendous and likely a form of extreme compulsion, but i thought it was mostly about his being the glory, and he would be god. i wonder if we forget that part of it.

all i am submitting is that our life is about compulsion. saying someone is a socialist because they have no problem with income tax is ignoring the reality of where compulsion actually fits within our existence. Further, to say those to someone WHILE sharing in the spoils of this income tax is basically theft, and hypocricy at best

[AussieOi]

Agreed, we should choose to give to those that are in need, and if we are unable to help, to say in our hearts, that we would have given if we had something to give. Although I have always been able to give to help others in one way or another, even though others are helping me...

i just don't understand how the collective application of this "For the people, BY the people, OF the people" all of the sudden becomes socialist. wasn't this the actual point of why we created government? to smooth out these imbalances?

and it can't be the receipt of "charity" making one dependant upon the system, otherwise the church would stop giving like it does to those who have needs.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

Agreed, we should choose to give to those that are in need, and if we are unable to help, to say in our hearts, that we would have given if we had something to give. Although I have always been able to give to help others in one way or another, even though others are helping me...

i just don't understand how the collective application of this "For the people, BY the people, OF the people" all of the sudden becomes socialist. wasn't this the actual point of why we created government? to smooth out these imbalances?

and it can't be the receipt of "charity" making one dependant upon the system, otherwise the church would stop giving like it does to those who have needs.

The church gives a man a fish in his need that was given by others who had an abundance and at the same time teaches a man to fish, or a better way to fish and to save and to store for times when there are less fish.

The state gives a man a fish that he took from another man that did not choose to give. And repeats this process, never helping the man to be able to improve his situation so that one day he too can have an abundance and share his fish with those who are where he once was, and if he tries to learn to fish, they penalize him and take back some of what they have given. And makes it harder for the man who is giving to give more because his abundance shrinks as he is robbed of his fish.

Who knows how it works where you live Mate, but that is exactly what it is like here, and I know from personal experience.

We all discover truth line upon line, and we had to repent for our partaking of the spoils once we realized that is what they were. And I am thankful for a priesthood leader that helped us understand that.

[a-train]

When Joseph Smith had his operation he denied the alcohol for pain relief. For him, the end (less pain) didn't justify the means (drinking alcohol). Now if he had chosen to take the alcohol, he could have given a sad story about the pain he would have had to go through without it. But it wouldn't have made it right in his mind.

Let us remember that although he was a man of such strong personal conviction, he had a bar opened up in the Nauvoo house for those who did not hold that same conviction. A great joke he gave was that it was the only way he could offer Porter Rockwell a job.

A part of his platform as a presidential candidate called for a decrease in the size and scope of the federal government of his time (tiny relative to our's today) by one third. He was a strong advocate of local government.

I think there can be little argument about what commandments we have received from the LORD concerning our care for the poor. The issue is whether or not we care for them directly and/or locally, or pay a central government to do it for us. The accusations of inhumanity hurled between those who oppose and those who advocate central government controlled and operated welfare are worthless and lack any substance at all. I have no doubt that we all want to help our fellow man.

There are many pros and cons to any government program, but the greatest issue at hand is whether or not the program serves the true purpose of government. Perhaps it is possible that our government can put every single American in a mansion with a Ferrari and a Suburban in the garage and feed us all a Steak dinner every night. But, is that the role of government? The government has but one true purpose, and that is to hold secure the liberty of the people.

-a-train

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

The government has but one true purpose, and that is to hold secure the liberty of the people.

-a-train

I second that, and move to adjourn this debate.

I call for the vote.

(just practicing the Robert's Rules of Order.. you can keep going.. after all, you are free to choose to do so)

[AussieOi]

Agreed, we should choose to give to those that are in need, and if we are unable to help, to say in our hearts, that we would have given if we had something to give. Although I have always been able to give to help others in one way or another, even though others are helping me...

i just don't understand how the collective application of this "For the people, BY the people, OF the people" all of the sudden becomes socialist. wasn't this the actual point of why we created government? to smooth out these imbalances?

and it can't be the receipt of "charity" making one dependant upon the system, otherwise the church would stop giving like it does to those who have needs.[/quote]

The church gives a man a fish in his need that was given by others who had an abundance and at the same time teaches a man to fish, or a better way to fish and to save and to store for times when there are less fish.

The state gives a man a fish that he took from another man that did not choose to give. And repeats this process, never helping the man to be able to improve his situation so that one day he too can have an abundance and share his fish with those who are where he once was, and if he tries to learn to fish, they penalize him and take back some of what they have given. And makes it harder for the man who is giving to give more because his abundance shrinks as he is robbed of his fish.

Who knows how it works where you live Mate, but that is exactly what it is like here, and I know from personal experience.

We all discover truth line upon line, and we had to repent for our partaking of the spoils once we realized that is what they were. And I am thankful for a priesthood leader that helped us understand that.[/quote]


thats very simplistic. i'd suggest that as many people who get church welfare don't go back to the church farms and give back their time, as there are people who decide to "bludge" off of welfare..


>>>>>The state gives a man a fish that he took from another man that did not choose to
give.


he didn't take it from another man, thats theft you are describing and their are penalties. we're chasing our tales, why should i pay a sales tax? why can't i spend the money i earned without being taxed? 6 of 1 half a dozen the other. you end up with the same in your pocket either way.


half the reason your government came into existance was so that it could provide for some people to be helped in their need with a fish, so that they could get back onto their feet and contribute more back to the economy than they were taken. its called an investment. it actually makes good sense to help people in their need, get them onto their feet and let them find work and participate in society. thats not socialism its good management.

yes the church model beats the state model, so do away with the state model! then what do you have left? not much of an economy and no investment in infrastructure or industry, and robber barons and strong men making monopolies to exploit people.

and i can guarantee you, if there were no state tomorrow and all there were was the church, and no one had to pay into this centralised fish distribution that does the same thing but is voluntary, how many do you think would pay into it? let me see, oh yeah, we have it, its called the ward welfare budget. and the ward fast budget, and the church perpetual education budget. and how much does that receive from members? stuff all, thats what. so i'd give it 2 years and the voluntary collapses, the people get together, say church and state should not be intertwined, lets strip the fiscal part out, create a government, and we'll try to centralise and allocate the resources as fairly as possible.

you reckon if sin didn't have a consequence we'd all be righteous? even the gospel uses the stick. why is a govt of us all of the sudden evil if it applies coercion?