Government and the war in Heaven.

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shadow
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:42 pm

buffalo_girl wrote:You know, it seems to me that the 'conservative' American contributors on this thread are talking about 'taxation without representation'.

Moses seems to be presenting a very valid case for 'taxation with representation' based on the 'consent of the People'.

I don't see Moses' case as contrary to the 'unalienable' rights of a People or of Constitutional Law - as long as the People make the decision, develop the plan, and retain control over the process.

Anyway, it seems like a lot of bad feelings to have among brothers and sisters. Even the Roman Empire refrained from crucifying Christ. It was members of His religion who demanded it.


Some things, buffalo, the "people " have no right to. The fruits of someones labor being one of them. Life being another. It does not matter what the majority say. You might think you can delegate your rights to a party, but when you stand at that judgement bar, you will stand alone. You surprise me buffalo, you being against the intrusion of government when it suits you, like the military and the USDA. They are ran by the "people". The "people" want it. So maybe you shouldn't complain about having your animals ID'd in the future. Maybe you should be grateful that the government of the people infringe upon your rights. It's for the good of the people they say.

I suppose they are not rights after all if a majority of the "people" have control of them and you don't. That would make them privileges. Maybe we have no rights after all. No individual rights, no accountability (certainly I can't be held responsible for the wishes of the majority). Sweet!!! Eat, drink, and be merry folks!

Taxation with representation is a crock if used out of context.

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buffalo_girl
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Chelc,

You have sooooo misunderstood what I have been saying it is difficult to fathom!

In none of my posts have I advocated socialism, communism, fascism, capitalism, liberalism, conservatism, martial lawism, welfarism, or any of the other 'isms' we 'react' to when they present themselves and push those 'red hot' buttons in our brains. Perhaps the one point on which I might like to see a definition of meaning is for the word 'fanaticism'.

I will repeat myself just once more and then I will lay this nonsense to rest. You may interpret what I say however you can or will. It is indeed your choice.

It seems to me that in a truly 'free' society, the People determine how to regulate and apportion their resources into agreed upon organizations which serve the needs of the community. Those organizations are instituted, regulated, and monitored by the People. This is self-determination, the exercise of 'free agency' on a community scale. Call it what you will. It is an agreed upon Plan established by a Free People.

Tyranny is when the State determines what is best for the People. That is Lucifer's Plan. Tyranny is any Totalitarian State - I care not what label it wears.

You know, it seems to me that the 'conservative' American contributors on this thread are talking about 'taxation without representation'.

Moses seems to be presenting a very valid case for 'taxation with representation' based on the 'consent of the People'.

I don't see Moses' case as contrary to the 'unalienable' rights of a People or of Constitutional Law - as long as the People make the decision, develop the plan, and retain control over the process.

Have a Good Easter Holiday!

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Moses
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:02 am

I feel the same way. I havent ever endorsed communism. Theres a word I cant think of it right now but it means saying that all people who do something are 18. then saying all people who are 18 do this thing.

Like all communists believe in state involvement. so all people who believe in state involvement must be communists

All missionaries go two by two, so all people who go two by two are missionaries.

All people who eat curry in my cafe are Indians. so All Indians eat Curry

I dont know the word that describes this. but I know that is what's happening here.

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Moses
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:28 am

I wonder if we can lay aside our discussion as to the rights and wrongs of Tax.

Let us ask this question. Are you sure that Businesses both large and small are not stealing from us? Monopolies decided to charge higher rates than they need to, just because there is no competition. We are sold water. But dont we already own the water? We buy land, but hey who gave it to the person we bought it off? How do we own Land? we buy it. but fromo who?

Are we happy with Money being the main reason why one would be president gets elected and one superior candidate does not get elected due to lack of funds.

Are we happy that the people can vote in a President , and yet another candidate is declared winner? Are we happy that we dont actually choose much, its all done by So called wise men. on our behalf. as the general public are not able to choose their man.

I dont know what you think , but theres a lot more evil and theft going on, without worrying about taxation.

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Steve Clark
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:19 am

Moses wrote:I feel the same way. I havent ever endorsed communism. Theres a word I cant think of it right now but it means saying that all people who do something are 18. then saying all people who are 18 do this thing.

Like all communists believe in state involvement. so all people who believe in state involvement must be communists

All missionaries go two by two, so all people who go two by two are missionaries.

All people who eat curry in my cafe are Indians. so All Indians eat Curry

I dont know the word that describes this. but I know that is what's happening here.


I believe the word you are looking for is syllogism. Maybe that super boring term I took in honors writing at the University is paying off...

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ChelC
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:03 pm

Okay, I think I speak English, but apparently I am completely misunderstanding what Moses and Buffalo girl have been saying. Since I think this conversation is fizzling and not getting to any clarification despite my best efforts, I give up.

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Mindfields
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:59 pm

It seems to me that in a truly 'free' society, the People determine how to regulate and apportion their resources into agreed upon organizations which serve the needs of the community. Those organizations are instituted, regulated, and monitored by the People. This is self-determination, the exercise of 'free agency' on a community scale. Call it what you will. It is an agreed upon Plan established by a Free People.

Tyranny is when the State determines what is best for the People. That is Lucifer's Plan. Tyranny is any Totalitarian State - I care not what label it wears.



And when the majority of the people choose evil.....

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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:15 pm

Mindfields wrote:
It seems to me that in a truly 'free' society, the People determine how to regulate and apportion their resources into agreed upon organizations which serve the needs of the community. Those organizations are instituted, regulated, and monitored by the People. This is self-determination, the exercise of 'free agency' on a community scale. Call it what you will. It is an agreed upon Plan established by a Free People.

Tyranny is when the State determines what is best for the People. That is Lucifer's Plan. Tyranny is any Totalitarian State - I care not what label it wears.



And when the majority of the people choose evil.....



It is time to read Helaman 5:2-4

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Moses
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:07 pm

And when the majority of the people choose evil.....


Then its their right to choose as they will, after all isnt that what you keep telling me the war in Heaven was about?

Are you suggesting we dont have democracy as if we gave people their choice, it might result in evil? So we strip them of this responsibility and let a few "Wise men decide for them" Democracy allows more people to exercise their free agency. than a republic which does not let the people decide.

We hope the majority decide wisely. we always hope. Most nations have checks and balances anyway to prevent silly or evil laws from being passed. But your right, sometimes we might not get the right. But what we do always get is the peoples choice. be it good or bad. But thats why the war in heaven happend. to preserve the right to choose good or evil.

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Moses
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:15 pm

Buffalo girl, why is it that we who don't believe government has a place in welfare are accused of having bad feelings towards brothers and sisters?


I know that was not addressed to me, but surely by default and by saying that government has no place in welfare then we are saying to whose who are in dificulty that we dont care.

We dont care because we know in advance that less people will be helped sufficiently without welfare, and therefore suffering will be greater and less people will be free to work due to sickness. and due to lack of a proper education.

I think that government not only has a right in welfare, but a duty.

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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:24 pm

So what about the 1/3 that got booted from heaven? Why were they still allowed to make their OWN decision after the majority voted? Maybe they were still allowed to choose for themselves? I would submit that God didn't allow the majority to choose contrary to what the individual wanted. Again, force vs agency. Heaven never was and never will be a democracy. It can't, truth is eternal and unchanging no matter the opinions of the majority.

I'm more concerned about what I decide rather than what the people decide.


PS, welcome back Moses! How's your mom feeling?

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Moses
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:38 am

No the 1/3rd were cast out because they wanted to force us to do good. Now we are here we still arent forced to be good., we still have choice and ought to have choice. However we arent in heaven right now and we have to abide by majority decisions.

I do think that we have fulfilled a scripture though. In th elast days men will call good evil and evil good.

Welfares aims are to feed and help people, which is good. There are some who are trying to say that it evil.

Some are saying that guns are Evil, but the other side say that gun ownership is good.

Things that can help are classed as bad, and things that can kill are classed as good.

Definitely a warped world.

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Moses
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:20 pm

Well you certainly are better than me at sarcasm thats for sure. But I do not see how a child being killed by a gun is a holy thing, nor do I see the desire to stop paying for kids operations to save their lives as holy.

Maybe you believe in a different God. Because the things you advocate end up with scenarios like that one.

You let Dogma get in the way of the real message, of Love.

If there is anything virtuous lovely or praiseworthy. we seek after these things. You would close hospitals if you withdrew state funding for hospitals, im sure that is a very noble cause,. Just to make your pay packet just that little bit bigger.

I am not saying there is virtue in seeking to get out of supporting our own, or growth in not being self reliant. However it is extremes that we are wise to avoid and there are good things everywhere and we must not think that ours is the only way.

I am sure the Good Samaritan was looked upon in a similar way to how you view government. but at the end of the day, who is that provides succour for the down and outs? Its not what we say, but what we do. To me the fruits of a child who was going to die and is now safe and living a productive life is fruit enough to tell me that it came from good.

We have a state funded childrens hospital in our city, do you think the people are feeling robbed, no, people give to it voluntarilty and businesses ( including Mc Donalds fast food chain) give to it generously. Many kids are saved there, and no one is thinking about the $10 out of their wages each week.

Im sorry I just cant ( though I have really tried) understand such logic.that puts the dollar before the important things of life.

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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:32 pm

Moses wrote:Definitely a warped world.


Right on Moses!! That's for sure.

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ChelC
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:07 am

This conversation is exactly like one I have with my son regularly.

Carlos: Mom, can I got outside and play with my friends?

Me: Not until later, it's time for dinner.

Carlos: Why?

Me: Because it's time for dinner.

Carlos: But WHYYYYYY?

Me: You know why, stop arguing.

Carlos: Why won't you tell me why? Just tell me WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!

Jbalm said:
With very few exceptions, anything the government can do, free people can do better.


a-train said:
Have we become so lazy that we would rather have the government take our alms out of our checks before we get them and do all the leg work in providing for the poor so we can go home to our xBox 360 without wasting our time donating to and volunteering for a private organization that provides medical services to the poor?


jbalm said:
...if you want to see how the private citizens react to emergencies compared to government, just look at hurricane Katrina. Private relief agencies were on scene days before FEMA got their act together.


ChelC said:
government is simply a sucky guy for the job for starters. Also, it isn't redistribution to the poor, because the beareaucrats will still take their cut, so it's just more taxes. Taxes are never raised by saying, "We really need room in our budget for 10,000 office chairs at $800 a pop and 16,000 toilet seats at $100 a pop." Or even, "Chelsea's mom works for Rural Development and they REALLY need some Eddie Bauer jackets embossed with their logo... again."

Tax is always increased because of some sob story that needs changed and then it goes someplace else and half gets lost in overhead expenses.


LC said:
The church gives a man a fish in his need that was given by others who had an abundance and at the same time teaches a man to fish, or a better way to fish and to save and to store for times when there are less fish.

The state gives a man a fish that he took from another man that did not choose to give. And repeats this process, never helping the man to be able to improve his situation so that one day he too can have an abundance and share his fish with those who are where he once was, and if he tries to learn to fish, they penalize him and take back some of what they have given. And makes it harder for the man who is giving to give more because his abundance shrinks as he is robbed of his fish.


a-train said:
The government has but one true purpose, and that is to hold secure the liberty of the people.


a-train said:
In the U.S., we have a powerful organization that redistributes wealth. It is the economy. And no system redistributes wealth faster than a free-market.


ChelC said:
The way I see this, we all agree that:
1. We should love our neighbors as ourselves.
2. We admit that many including ourselves fail at this responsibility.
3. We should give charity willingly.


ChelC said:
The various welfare programs are the same as the church determining the fast offering you should pay, taking it forcefully with threat of retaliation, never guaranteeing your being provided by those services, having extreme overhead for providing services, doing a crap job, and excommunicating if you didn't pay.


And AFTER all of these numerous clarifications that we are not opposed to welfare, but government being the vehicle for it, you come up with this doozy:
I do not see how a child being killed by a gun is a holy thing, nor do I see the desire to stop paying for kids operations to save their lives as holy.


Moses, you're still invited over for dinner, but I QUIT!!!

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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:08 am

The non sequitur is mightier than the sword.

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shadow
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:30 pm

"Satan argued that men given their freedom would not choose correctly therefore he would compel them to do right and save us all. Today Satan argues that men given their freedom do not choose wisely; therefore a so-called brilliant, benevolent few must establish the welfare government and force us into a greater socialistic society. We are assured of being led into the promised land as long as we let them put a golden ring in our nose. In the end we loose our freedom and the promised land also. No matter what you call it -- communism, socialism, or the welfare state -- our freedom is sacrificed. We believe the gospel is the greatest thing in the world; why then do we not force people to join the Church if they are not smart enough to see it on their own? Because this is Satan's way not the Lord's plan. The Lord uses persuasion and love." -Ezra T. Benson, April 1965 General Conference Report

The end result does not justify the means. Satan's plan in the beginning was to save ALL God's children. He would FORCE the issue. No choice. No agency. Did that mean Christ's plan would NOT save souls? No. Government is the same, force or agency. Sure, force can feed a mouth, but so can agency. That is the good Samaritan. Someone who voluntarily gave of himself. I would submit that one cannot be forced into being a good Samaritan.

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Moses
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:38 pm

And AFTER all of these numerous clarifications that we are not opposed to welfare, but government being the vehicle for it, you come up with this doozy
:I have always acknowleged this.

Yes but who is the parent ? I think my argument is the parent I am saying we need help, your argument is the child, saying I am playing my games and they work for me, still further me, as the parent, says no son the job is much bigger than your game. we need larger more organised help to get that job done.

I think I have made it clear that if those alternatives that you all mention were being done on the scale that 2008 problems require, I would relinquish all desire for Governmental involvement. But the sad fact is..... They dont, or if they do they are impotent and so ineffective to be almost not there.

I dont know how much you all give to charity, I dont want to know I do know that collectively its not nearly enough.Charity is both a principle ( a great one) and only a part of the answer.

I try not to think in terms of Socialism or capitalism, but problem solving. There are needs, How do we meet those needs? Society that is obessed with self will not want Government to take taxes. Society with a social concience will look and desire the well being of everyone to be taken care of in things like Health and Education.

You may well quit, but you quit because the plain fact is what works , is right. And all the rethoric wil not feed the hungry or heal the sick. I will never quit.

Who is your neighbour? Mine is the Samaritan, or any other looked down upon person or organisation, who actually does not cross on the other side and pretend the problem doesnt exist.

If there was a war and America was being invaded, I dont think that anyone would aregue against tax being used to defend America? But theres an internal conflict where there haves and have nots, ( I talk in neccessities of life) and there seems to be an objection to paying tax for this war. I think its because, If we are okay, then we just dont want to know. Its only when it affects us that we wake up.

Its a bit like when a politician was asked what was the difference between a recession and a depression? he answered " A recession is when things are bad A depression is when it affects me"

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jbalm
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:38 pm

I will never quit.


Quit what? You just go with the flow. Quitting, in your case, would actually require more effort than not quitting.

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Moses
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:52 pm

Your quite welcome to that view of me if you like.

If doing nothing means championing the poor, sick , hungry, uneducated, then I'm glad to do nothing.In these things I will not quit.

For your information, just because we give Tithing, and we give taxes . doesn't stop us also form giving of our time and money voluntarily as well. Its both for me, not either or.

According to Joseph Smith, We ought to be subject to government and authority.

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shadow
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:22 pm

Moses, I have no doubt that you are a champion for many of those in need! I believe you yourself are a very charitable person, I can tell from your posts that you have concern for those in need. Many of us just don't agree that the role of government is to be involved. Not that WE shouldn't be involved, just that the government shouldn't. All the government is is a 3rd party, a corrupt middleman if you will. They take and redistribute to whatever cause they see fit to give whether I agree or not, including abortion, and war funding. Heck, I don't want to have to be taken away from my family for a few hours a month just so my country can fund a trip to Mars! I'd rather raise my kids!

By the way, most taxes don't go to humanitarian efforts.

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Moses
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:18 pm

Govt, for the people by the people. Not a third party at all. Its your constitution, Its inspired? I think its great. Why cant you guys just lighten up on judging everyone who isnt wearing the right tie? ( Your tie)

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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:09 pm

I can't see a particle of difference between the US political parties.

If we are the government, we need to start reclaiming it as 'the People' on our local levels. That is the only hope we have of preserving liberty.

Since the tumult on this thread has to do with preserving agency and the battle we fight in mortality as a continuation of the one begun in heaven, we best do more than yell at one another online.

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Moses
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:46 pm

Ok Buffalo girl.

Lets be nice:) hugs:) :D

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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:50 pm

Moses wrote:You have your heart in the right place.But I have to suggest that Governments role is also to protect its citizens. to provide a climate where business can flourish and people can have access to proper medical and educational facilities.

You talk about force and theft. how about those in positions of power, such as The medical profession the legal profession, and other professions who can do a service that in a matter of a week, could demand enough from a family to reqire them to mortage or even sell their home in order to pay for one weeks work or less. a home that took 25 years to pay for can be lost because of an operation. these professionals have huge huge homes, paid for by the hard earned money of the normal people on the street. You talk about force. these people have no where else to go for help. I am so so sorry but the anti welfare hobby horse,is very selective on punishing one group and ignoring many other wrongs. The scriptures including the BOM condemn these practices.

Social policies are not concerned with robbing you or me of our right to choose good or evil. They are concerned with protecting the public from those businesses who use legalised plunder, and given the man in the street a fair deal.


Maybe its not perfect, but it is sure as anything , as perfect as the alternatives currently available.


Yes, exactly but protect what? Life, liberty and property. Business can not flourish without those rights unless it is corporatist business based on feeding from the coffers of confiscated wealth of the people.

D&C 134 clearly states that we believe governments can not exist in peace unless laws are framed AND held inviolate which secure to EACH INDIVIDUAL the right of life, free exercise of conscience (meaning freedom in matters that are matters of conscience and do not harm others) and the right and control of property.

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