Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

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Moses
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:30 pm

Interesting answers and I thank you , one and all.

I think the Lord allows poverty in the hope that his children will see the need and fill it. Of course by individuals helping out the neihbour, it would be a wonderful world, or a Church welfare system which would equally be fabulous. These thankfully exist and thank God above for these fine things. However I dont think we are all blessed to live in a country hamlet with kind neighbours, and I dont think all are members of the a Lords Church. mores the pity:(

No I talk about the other millions who fall betwen those ideals and need help. I think the Lord would smile with satifaction were he to see little Jimmy getting that operation , or Sally having that meal. I think he would be pleased to see harry with those new pair of shoes. And dad with a smile , seeing his little family are not starving, on account of his inability to work due to his heart problem. Oh that's not to mention the fact that he is able to get the heart valve replacement, that only the rich and affluent can afford. Which by the way , may make him fit again so that he can once again be able to contibute to the work force.

I dont remember ever endorsing the communist ideals of no private business or the other draconian measures. I see a free enterprise society with a 'heart' to make sure that the things we take for granted are available to all of Gods Children , then maybe they also can have decent education and perhaps get a qualification to make the next generation less dependent on others .

Taxation as a means? I dont see why not. Government policies are a compromise at best, and we all must be able to see that its swings and roundabouts. I dont like this policy but I do like that policy. Or have we removed ourselves so much from reality that all we see is our own small world and own small needs?

I think neccessity has brought about these welfare policies, not leftist dogma. on reflection if at Judgement day I am accused of stealing, I would answer yes , guilty as charged, but I did prevent a lot of little kids from starving and kept people alive with medical care.

On the other hand If I were to go the other way I might be saying. well I certainly got my moneys worth , didnt pay taxes just as I believe the constitution said I didnt have to. I paid my tithing too.

Those were the things we were commanded to do , but we might get the question, "Why when you were on earth, did you object to a little of your money going to help the needy by way of taxation? I dont know how you would answer when the picture of the suffering kids was placed in your view and then you were told, this would have been avoided , if you hadnt withheld your money.Then we have the government members who instigated welfare programmes. Now I cant judge the heart of these people for sure, but I am sure than the motive of at least some of them is to help mankind. and for that motive alone I feel they will be blessed

Remember the letter of the law killeth.

Kind regards

Moses

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Moses
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:35 pm

I was thinking that too (your post before last) although I am not up on their operational details. I think a lot of search and rescue is done that way too. Satellite phones here are that way (only pay for air time). I don't see why a police station couldn't work on that basis. You call them, you pay them. Hospitals, everything. That is the only honest way as far as I'm concerned
.

My goodness, that would be great, 100 million people to be policed and the burden of that police force shared only with those who use it? Not taking into account the fact that we all use it because we are protected 24/7 if only people who called the police paid then you might need a mortgage for even one call out. in fact economically you would be unable to afford a call out. and just like those who are unable to afford medical care you would just have to go without. making the rich one again the ones who get protection of the Law , fire services, and the like.

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:39 pm

To quote my favorite movie, "Sounds better every time I hear it!"

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:40 pm

Right now we pay the total cost and then we would pay the total cost. Your implication is that it isn't worth the price!!! And I agree!!! I far prefer community volunteer policing and self defense!!!

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shadow
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:04 pm

Moses wrote: God did give us the rights yes. but that same God who gave us those rights , also gave us the injunctions to love our neighbour, to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, Feed my sheep, Give what you have to the poor and follow me, He also was the God who said . Depart I never knew you.


God gave us rights to choose now this day whom we will serve. In other words, he allows us to choose for ourselves, to plant a seed and see how it grows. See Alma 32. By experimenting we can know the good from the bad and the end results on our own.
We're commanded to love our neighbor. But are we forced to? We're commanded to feed his sheep. But do we have to. If we don't then yes, "depart, I never knew you." But if we're FORCED to feed the sheep, love the neighbor and care for the poor does that mean we now "know thee" and are welcomed into the kingdom? The answer my friend is NEGATIVE.

Rights are only of any use when coupled with responsibilities and duties. Rights are not for self gratification, they are for use to further the Kindom of God. He that saveth his life shall lose it, he that loseth his life for my sake, the same shall find it.


Actually rights are what allow us to further the kingdom. Rights allow us the choice to save or lose our lives for His sake. Notice how we aren't sent to jail during this probationary state if we don't follow Christ??


So now when I see that deduction in my pay packet I thank God for the help I received back then. am more than willing to let the % go out of my earnings. To me it is like the good Samaritan everyone despised the Samaritans and people depsise the IRD, yet good can come from anywhere.


So do you feel like a good samaritan by supporting abortions?? Do you get a warm fuzzy feeling for doing that? Do you know all the evil programs tax money goes to??

Yes God gave us the rights, but he gave us the responsibilities and the brains so we would not have to be commanded in all things.


So why be forced, or commanded to pay a tax or go to jail?

I believe the most basic right gave us, is to act for ourselves and as a group
,

I believe we've been taught to "work out your own salvation." This group thing is just silly.

Governments are the People and the people have the right to govern themselves


Certainly.

they have rights to elect whatever party they like and pass whatever laws they like for their community


So long as it does not infringe upon anothers individual rights given from God.

We have responsibility to obey Government and authority until the time he whos right it is to Govern comes in all his Glory.


Absolutely NOT!! Ridiculous to even imagine.

but im really saying that we have rights but only when we have done our duty to our brother do those rights mean anything.


No, we have rights to choose whom we will serve. That's the whole judgement thingy. If you choose to not follow God, that's your right, but the consequences are yours. That's why there are so many degrees of glory. You get to pick what degree you want based off of your actions. It's not the governments job to force a glory upon you that you don't want or haven't rightly earned. It won't ever work that way. Satan wanted it to, that's what his plan was all about, but it's against eternal laws.

I hope this helps you see my point of view. I can't stand force. An income tax is an attempt at forcing me to comply with and fund government programs that I don't necessarily agree with, like the war on terror and abortion, public schools too.

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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:20 pm

We have responsibility to obey Government and authority until the time he whos right it is to Govern comes in all his Glory.

Absolutely NOT!! Ridiculous to even imagine.


I have to jump in here as I was thinking about this issue pretty heavily this morning. The 12th article of faith condemned Helmuth to be a martyr, but he was vindicated because he was right. He was both justified and sanctified. BUT... if the church would have opposed or promoted opposition to the Nazi party, or even tolerated it, the church would not have lasted one day. No ordinances would have been performed and the work would have stopped. In that way the higher law was fulfilled by burning Helmuth (although I guarantee the Lord did not burn him and he was sustained and better off for his stand). Likewise such is the case world wide and yes, even here in the U.S..

I do not believe that submitting to tyranny is a matter of celestial doctrine, but rather of terrestrial administration in wisdom and by revelation. That does not then follow that our individual conduct should be any different the Helmuth's. But we cannot expect to be supported in that, we will not be by the church. The church cannot promote our opposition to the government whose support the church requires until the time is right to separate fully.

Understanding that makes it possible to reconcile the God given Declaration of Independence and the 12th article of faith.

http://fowlesview.blogspot.com/2005/03/ ... llege.html

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ChelC
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:26 pm

The police are usually too little to late. I see a need in the real world for crime scene investigation, but not for the cop that sits in a speed trap all day long. We don't need a police state, we need an armed populace that will stand up and take responsibility. Like I said though, in today's world I think there is a need there for a police force, just not exactly what it is now.

Unfortunately our ideal world isn't happening, and without our police state anarchy would reign. It simply can never work without a moral majority who will take responsibility.

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jbalm
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:36 pm

I have to jump in here as I was thinking about this issue pretty heavily this morning. The 12th article of faith condemned Helmuth to be a martyr, but he was vindicated because he was right. He was both justified and sanctified. BUT... if the church would have opposed or promoted opposition to the Nazi party, or even tolerated it, the church would not have lasted one day. No ordinances would have been performed and the work would have stopped. In that way the higher law was fulfilled by burning Helmuth (although I guarantee the Lord did not burn him and he was sustained and better off for his stand). Likewise such is the case world wide and yes, even here in the U.S..

I do not believe that submitting to tyranny is a matter of celestial doctrine, but rather of terrestrial administration in wisdom and by revelation. That does not then follow that our individual conduct should be any different the Helmuth's. But we cannot expect to be supported in that, we will not be by the church. The church cannot promote our opposition to the government whose support the church requires until the time is right to separate fully.

Understanding that makes it possible to reconcile the God given Declaration of Independence and the 12th article of faith.


I like this.

By the way, BYUTV (I get it on DishNetwork) had a show about Huebner a few weeks ago. There were interviews of some of his friends who are still alive. Very profound and insightful.

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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:38 pm

ChelC,

To get to there from here requires what is now upon us. Unfortunate, but necessary and beneficial.

--------------------
jbalm, that sounds like a good program. I have only read what is on the web.

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shadow
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:51 pm

S&P, I agree that there is a huge difference in the role an individual has in using agency and that of what the church does. The church has the purpose of bringing souls to Christ. I have the responsibility of bringing MY soul to Christ first and foremost. To do so I cannot be a willing slave to the government.

I believe Moses was inferring that the government knows best next to Christ. To that I wholly disagree. From scriptures (and thinking) I know that governments are evil. Evil is, evil does. I do not have a responsibility to "obey government and authority" until Christ comes to reign. I govern myself. I am my own authority.

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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:36 pm

To which I agree wholeheartedly. I am always labeled an anarchist or socialist, but in reality I advocate neither. I simply desire to point out that what most people do advocate is simply a different form of varied socialism. I take no issue with somebody that agrees to have the government supported fully by user fees alone and thereby restricts the government to the consent of the governed and prohibits theft and redistribution in all ways, to all ends. Well that and I have a secret affinity for playing the devil's advocate.

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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:57 pm

On the flip side I don't have an issue with a group of people that rely on the government solely for support by taxation, so long as ALL who are governed are fully aware and agree to the terms.

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Moses
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:12 am

Maybe I look back to 30 years ago, when in England people used to object to our proselytising on a regular basis, on the grounds that we were an American Church. We of course rejected this, and told them that there were at the time 100,000 UK LDS members and that a large core of USA members were descended directly from UK members.

I was always proud that we weren't an American Church. The Church never promoted to the English saints The constitution, or bill of rights, and certainly never taught any of the dogma that I hear on Latter day Conservative on rights etc. Possibly because of the fall out that would have occured when trying to get new members.

My problem is this. I believe for the American make up, its all very well , because thats the type of people you are. But for us Brits, your philosphies are alien and to us 'seem' unbiblical. Jesus was all for self denial and losing oneself. the Teachings I see here are mostly centred on self.

I see more virtue in the east then in the west in that sense. I do accept Joseph Smith , and I do realise that in his day . problems were quite different to what they are today. I grant you that. but I am happy being LDS and all that with the standards we have in the Uk and other Commonwealth countries.

We share with you personal responsibility. we share with you trying to better ourself. I think we differ inasmuch we are generally prepared to sacrifice some of our rights in favour of the general good.

Certainly there are no Church welfare farms or deseret enterprises in the UK. So we need something .

Its very interesting getting your take on things. I thank you for taking your time to explain your views without any ill feelings.

Of course you may well be advanced from where we are, and maybe I have a lot to learn about the things you talk about. But right now I am a bit set in my ways ha ha.......

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ChelC
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:42 am

Argh! I keep getting logged out. Third and final try.

I hope you will prayerfully reconsider your position. The words of prophets are very clear.

If you are too wrapped up in bitterness to accept the principles of freedom because the God given Constitution designed to protect liberty is too American for you, then you do so to your own detriment. The Constitution and principles of freedom are far bigger than the USA. Some people reject the gospel because of an idiot member they know. How sad for them, and how sad for you.

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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:38 am

I would argue that the principles of truth being discussed here were carried over from Europe. Our founding fathers got them out of the best books of their day (under inspiration), European books. They studied the great philosophers and governments etc... Now if you want to call the whole of truth gathered here, uniquely American, thank you kindly, please do, but don't disassociate yourself from your own grandfathers on account of your rebellious cousins across the waters!

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Steve Clark
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:01 am

Moses wrote:Maybe I look back to 30 years ago, when in England people used to object to our proselytising on a regular basis, on the grounds that we were an American Church. We of course rejected this, and told them that there were at the time 100,000 UK LDS members and that a large core of USA members were descended directly from UK members.

I was always proud that we weren't an American Church. The Church never promoted to the English saints The constitution, or bill of rights, and certainly never taught any of the dogma that I hear on Latter day Conservative on rights etc. Possibly because of the fall out that would have occured when trying to get new members.

My problem is this. I believe for the American make up, its all very well , because thats the type of people you are. But for us Brits, your philosphies are alien and to us 'seem' unbiblical. Jesus was all for self denial and losing oneself. the Teachings I see here are mostly centred on self.

I see more virtue in the east then in the west in that sense. I do accept Joseph Smith , and I do realise that in his day . problems were quite different to what they are today. I grant you that. but I am happy being LDS and all that with the standards we have in the Uk and other Commonwealth countries.

We share with you personal responsibility. we share with you trying to better ourself. I think we differ inasmuch we are generally prepared to sacrifice some of our rights in favour of the general good.

Certainly there are no Church welfare farms or deseret enterprises in the UK. So we need something .

Its very interesting getting your take on things. I thank you for taking your time to explain your views without any ill feelings.

Of course you may well be advanced from where we are, and maybe I have a lot to learn about the things you talk about. But right now I am a bit set in my ways ha ha.......



Moses,

I appreciate your honesty, and really do thank you for giving us your insights. Of course, we all obviously don't agree with each other. I can see how the idea of government as some of us are describing can be taken as selfish, or uncharitable. I do not believe it is, but on the face of it, I can't blame you.

We really have a lot more similarities than differences. We both want to return to our loving Father. We both want to help those who need help. The only differences come in the manner by which help is bestowed. You look at these socialistic programs as a benefit to fit a need, while I see them as doing more harm than good. I have a brother-in-law who broke his neck at 18 and is now a quadriplegic. He is completely dependent on the state social security program for his care. While I am grateful that his needs are being met, I am more upset by looking at the broader picture. If we as his family didn't have to pay the social security tax, we could afford to take much better care of him than he is currently getting.

I am not trying to say there isn't a need that needs to be filled, just that there is a better way to fill it. Giving of your own free will and choice is better than being forced to give. I really liked the "Good Better Best" talk in General Conference in Oct. It helps me get a better perspective on all sorts of things. I believe that we are here on earth to learn through experiences how to become like our Father in Heaven. I don't believe that exaltation is granted at the flick of a magical wand. It is a process in which we learn to behave like an exalted being by finding the best way to do everything.

As for your comment on the Bill of Rights and other US "dogma" you hear being preached here. I assure you the principles therein contained are meant as much for you as they are for me. Please take a look at this paper from Ezra T. Benson:

http://www.latterdayconservative.com/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=1

After you do I would love to discuss the principles of God-given rights vs. Gov't-given privileges. Thanks for your contribution to the site.

-SC

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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:40 am

I was going to recommend Moses read that too, but then I figured he/she would start hating the prophets. As a Christian, I find it alien that someone would think that "sacrificing some of our rights in favor of the general good" is a good thing. How is a right sacrificed anyway? If you mean delegated, then why? Why would one delegate a gift from God? Maybe you can't handle it so you say "Here Mr. government, I can't make my own choices, please make them for me?" I don't understand this way of thinking. It's slavery.

This life is about what? Being forced to do as a government sees fit? I don't think so. What if I don't want to support abortion? What if I don't want to support a war on terror? What if I don't want to fund a bridge to nowhere? The U.S. government is set up this way, much like that of England. It's disgusting to me. It's a false salvation.

I think the disconnect I have with Moses is that he/she believes the only way to help people, to give of yourself, is to first give it to the government to redistribute. That's completely false. My personal belief is that that is a sin. It won't be counted as good to you unless the evil the government does is counted too. I believe in personal responsibility. To act as a free person.

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ChelC
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:42 pm

D&C 101:78-80:
"That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.
Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another.
And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood."

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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:03 pm

Excellent scripture ChelC. I was just pondering a little bit more in relation to everyone being accountable for their own sins in the day of judgment. Nothing too profound, but I was wondering what it would be like if suddenly the welfare state disappeared, and with it went mandatory taxation. Would people step up and provide for the poor and hungry by choice? That would be interesting for sure. The more interesting thing to me is under our current system how many are actually caring for the needs of their neighbors, and how many are just paying taxes because if they don't they fear the consequences? I would venture to say that few are as grateful as Moses to pay into the system. So, are the millions of people paying tax begrudgingly going to be blessed for their contribution? Even if the system were set up to be used in good ways ie. not for abortions or other morally wanting areas, and every penny went to actually helping those with real needs it is only blessing the recipient. If the same money were given by desire then both parties would benefit. The hungry man would be fed and the giver would be blessed for his grace.

Good Better Best

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ChelC
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:33 pm

It's tough to sit back and watch people mess up their lives. I don't know if everyone would step up, but I think they would. I know a lot of people are making a hefty income as beggars in the city. I know I certainly couldn't step over a hungry person and not give. I may be naive, but I don't think so. I think people rise to the occasion when the bar is set high. I think it is a horrible disservice that we lack these opportunities to serve. I think when you actually serve someone in a hands on way, you realize your own vulnerability. When you send you check to those poor people, it sometimes puffs you up more in pride.

A while back some of our family members wanted to make donations at Christmas time to a homeless shelter. One SIL was obsessed with having her kids see the gifts being accepted. People sometimes give because they want to feel better about themselves. This is why I like the church setup. When you are face to face with a need, it really brings home how we all sit in the hollow of the Lord's hand, and none of us are without need. I think when the opportunities to serve are all around us it benefits everyone. So much more humanity for all involved.

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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:55 pm

I would argue that the principles of truth being discussed here were carried over from Europe.


This is absolutely correct. The U.S. Constitution is a direct descendant of the Magna Carta, which for its time was a much more revolutionary document than was the Constitution.

But a free nation is much like a new car. A new car is never as pristine as the day you drive it off the lot. No matter how hard you try to maintain it, over the years little dings and scratches appear, until someday, its just another old car.

Likewise, the U.S. was never so pristine as when the Constitution was first ratified. Almost immediately after that freedoms began to be compromised until we find ourselves in our present predicament.

England's car is just older than ours.

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ChelC
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:25 pm

Yeah, but a pristinely restored car can be better than new, and cherished more carefully too when you know what can happen to it and how hard it was to get there.

Just think how fantastic it will be when we fix up the old clunker.

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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:28 pm

Interesting question. How many would help the poor if not forced to? First I must say that it is the welfare system that has created so much poor. Not that there wouldn't be poor among us, just not as much. I then think about how the church is set up. It's members pay a tithe and a generous fast offering. I remember as a deacon going to the inactive members of our ward collecting a fast offering on fast Sunday. And guess what? They donated!! A good society will never let the poor and the hungry go without. Now I'm not so naive as to think that ALL will donate. But enough will to provide. But it's foolish to mandate a tax so the government can redistribute as it sees fit. The D&C speaks about what men do when given a little power. Certainly Moses can see the unrighteous dominion governments, including Englands, heavy hand exercises? Well, maybe he can't.

I also want to point out that as a church, we don't practice the law of consecration as of yet, but that time will come. And even then, we will be able to meet with our Bishop and figure out what our excess is. I'm guessing no jail time for consecration evasion.

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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:54 pm

but I was wondering what it would be like if suddenly the welfare state disappeared, and with it went mandatory taxation. Would people step up and provide for the poor and hungry by choice? That would be interesting for sure.


"I recall hearing that James Madison said something to the effect of:

"Nothing will encourage the people to give of themselves generously to help those around them, when they are completely secure in their income, free from taxation."

(paraphrased according to the best of my recollection).

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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:56 pm

Food is a central part of Tlingit culture, and the land is an abundant provider. A saying amongst the Tlingit is that "when the tide goes out the table is set". This refers to the richness of intertidal life found on the beaches of Southeast Alaska, most of which can be harvested for food. Another saying is that "in Lingít Aaní you have to be an idiot to starve". Since food is so easy to gather from the beaches, a person who can't feed himself at least enough to stay alive is considered to be a fool, perhaps mentally incompetent or suffering from very bad luck. However, though eating off the beach would provide a fairly healthy and varied diet, eating nothing but "beach food" is considered contemptible among the Tlingit, and a sign of poverty. Indeed, shamans and their families were required to abstain from all food gathered from the beach, and men might avoid eating beach food before battles or strenuous activities in the belief that it would weaken them spiritually and perhaps physically as well. Thus for both spiritual reasons as well as to add some variety to the diet, the Tlingit harvest many other resources for food besides those which are easily found outside their front doors. No other food resource receives as much emphasis as salmon; however seal and game are both close seconds.


If the resources were available to any of sound mind and body, then charity would be limited to those absolutely unable to provide for themselves.

All that the various forms of welfare have done is increase the number of those unable to provide for themselves (with the eventual goal of all being included). Wait, isn't absolute dependence satan's plan? Then why permit him to "buy up everything"(with worthless currency) and extort us thereby?

Ask Buffalo Girl how the government feels about self sufficiency. The combine does not like it at all! It is in direct opposition to satan's plan. Ergo, want to know a good way to fight? Promote widespread self sufficiency.

That the church might stand independent of all things here below.

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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:05 pm

D&C 98: 5
5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.

D&C 109: 54.
54 Have mercy, O Lord, upon all the nations of the earth; have mercy upon the rulers of our land; may those principles, which were so honorably and nobly defended, namely, the Constitution of our land, by our fathers, be established forever.

D&C 101
77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;

D&C 134
5 We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience.

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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:09 pm

The US is currently the most charitible nation in the world. If they knew that there was need here, they would fill it.

The true need is unknown due to government intervention. The intervention kind of numbs people from reality, what is really going on. When you try to live off the system after being on it, like we have, it is easier to feel the economical changes, and realize that something is up. It makes it possible to make better decisions to be more prepared.

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Moses
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:05 pm

Where there is no welfare there is abject poverty. England has proven this.

Prior to the introduction of welfarism , when the rich we free to make a difference to the poor, but didnt they had their chance, Kids were suffering on a large scale with malnutrition, rickets, TB , Polio and all manner of diseases. People not working were often called "lunatics" and put into asylums. Churches did all they could to help but it was crumbs at the table. but it was not until the welfare state that, these sufferings were alleviated. And we hear quotes that welfare is evil??????

No wonder the scriptures say in the last days men will call evil good and good evil

If some people abuse welfare, then thats a problem between them and their concience and ultimately God. But we must not stop helping those who are genuine, just because of the ones who are dishonest.

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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:09 am

Welfare is not wrong, in the sense of providing willingly for your fellowman. Good Christian Charity is a just and holy principle. So there is no calling good evil here.

What is evil, is stealing in order to provide for others. Satan will use many truths to get you to accept one lie.

The reality is, that the people of England experienced poverty like they did because their wealth was robbed from them. Even though their ancestors had once lived by higher laws, and had abundance, eventually, they were conquered. They were conquered by the same system that is destroying America now. There was so much suffering because of this greed and selfishness. And in the welfare state, greed is still a factor. Those that have put in the programs get to take money from everyone who works at all. They have legalized the robbery of the fruit of their labors. That money that is taken still has to cover administration and line a few pockets before it is used to help the people.

This same system, which is controlled by Satan, is trying to take over the entire world. In countries like Iran, or any other nation that is Islamic, they do not believe in Usury. But those that are conquering them, are helping to install a usury system. That system transfers the wealth, and when it reaches its full goals, it will have robbed all people and have left them without property and homeless. It brings to pass the destruction of nations and free people. Not saying that Iraq was free, the US had been pressing them under their thumb indirectly for some time now.

It can be hard to understand these things. When I was living off the state system of welfare, I did not understand that I was doing something wrong. I felt ashamed that I needed the help, and that on that help, I lived better then those that were paying in to it that I knew. After studying the way that the church did things, and my bishop warning me to use the church rather then the state, I realized the HUGE difference between the systems. One is of God, the other is Satan's counterfeit that robs. Once I truly understood that, there is no way that I could any longer partake of the spoils of Babylon.

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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:44 am

Prior to the introduction of welfarism , when the rich we free to make a difference to the poor, but didnt they had their chance, Kids were suffering on a large scale with malnutrition, rickets, TB , Polio and all manner of diseases.


Are you sure that the reason for the poverty was the lack of a welfare state? I ask this because a lack of freedom, or excessive regulation, is often a cause of poverty. Historically, those who are given nothing but the unbridled freedom to pursue their interests are quite prosperous.

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