Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

[Moses]

The statement "Rights are given by God" whilst true is too narrow and it lends support to right wing dogma that distorts the "Picture as a whole"

I remember the great speech by John F Kennedy . "Dont ask what your country can do for you , ask what you can do for your country" God did give us the rights yes. but that same God who gave us those rights , also gave us the injunctions to love our neighbour, to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, Feed my sheep, Give what you have to the poor and follow me, He also was the God who said . Depart I never knew you.

Rights are only of any use when coupled with responsibilities and duties. Rights are not for self gratification, they are for use to further the Kindom of God. He that saveth his life shall lose it, he that loseth his life for my sake, the same shall find it.

When I was on an outward bound course in the lake district of England many years ago, the instructor warned us of the dangers and the need for care and common sense on the mountains and water. and the rule that was number one, was "Alsways go at the speed of the slowest person do not leave anyone behind.. I will never forget that even though it was 35 years ago I believe in life that rule ought to apply.

Taxation to help poor people has been criticised much, but I compare the Tax as a blessing both for the giver and the reciprient. I know the ends dont always justify the means. But as one who has been both a giver and a taker in my life, I recognise the predicament that I would have been in , had it not been for welfare for a year in my 30s when I was so sick I couldnt get out of the house, when my employer let me go because of my absenteeism caused by my sickness. I mananged to eat and to pay my rent for that period and great suffering was averted.

So now when I see that deduction in my pay packet I thank God for the help I received back then. am more than willing to let the % go out of my earnings. To me it is like the good Samaritan everyone despised the Samaritans and people depsise the IRD, yet good can come from anywhere.

Yes God gave us the rights, but he gave us the responsibilities and the brains so we would not have to be commanded in all things.

I believe the most basic right gave us, is to act for ourselves and as a group, Governments are the People and the people have the right to govern themselves, they have rights to elect whatever party they like and pass whatever laws they like for their community. We have responsibility to obey Government and authority until the time he whos right it is to Govern comes in all his Glory.

Im not elequent so I apologise if I have said anything that offends anyone here. but im really saying that we have rights but only when we have done our duty to our brother do those rights mean anything.

[ChelC]

I absolutely agree with you, other than the welfare tidbit.

The biggest problem I have with welfare programs is that they are arbitrary and forceful. It isn't charity when it's forced. Forced welfare allows less voluntary welfare. Welfare programs do not allow for circumstantially impoverished folks to get help. "Circumstantially impoverished" is something I've considered my own family in the past. We had tough times because we had a disaster here and there and in between, but on paper none of these disasters made us "poor". In total it was pretty devastating, but we were providing care to our "poor" friends who were way better off! That's a small example of why it doesn't work, but the primary reason is that no matter what you do with stolen money it's still stolen. It equates with Satan's "no soul lost" plan. Sounds nice, but there are huge inherent flaws which do not allow for growth. So to equate public welfare to a gospel principle is off the mark. Feds are not best suited to handle welfare, and in fact are the worst suited for it.

[jbalm]

Taxation to help poor people has been criticised much, but I compare the Tax as a blessing both for the giver and the reciprient.

According to my Aaronic Priesthood Manual (I teach the "Dinkins"), free agency is the second greatest gift, after life itself, that God has given us. One of the caveats of free agency is that you must choose to do good. Having part of our wages taxed, such taxes ultimately enforced at gunpoint, and then redistributed to others is not the taxpayer choosing right. No blessing there.

Another caveat of free agency is that someone else's free agency is just as precious to them as yours is to you. Therefore, those that would impose such agency inhibiting measures as forced "charity" are committing a sin, claimed magnanimous purpose notwithstanding.

In other words, charity=blessings. Socialism=slavery.

[ChelC]

Yes, it seems that every single issue goes back to the same thing. Satan's plan or the Lord's plan. I think most people these days would unwittingly vote for Satan's plan, as is demonstrated in the political world on a daily basis.

That every man may be judged according to his own works... no man should be in bondage to another. Paraphrasing the D&C.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

I don't think stating that our rights coming from God is too narrow at all. Either they are from God or they are granted to us by other men. I choose that they are granted by God and belong to all mankind.

Our rights, are not entitlements, they are living by the laws of God. We love the Lord our God and we love our Neighbors as ourselves. If we would not want to be forced to 'give' we should not force our neighbors to give. If we were following the laws of God, we would give of our substance freely, through our choice.

There is nothing that I am really adding to what has already been said, so I will leave it at that.

[Moses]

Stolen????? I consent so how is my money stolen. I voted for it freely in the elections so did milions of other men and women.

Stolen means something is taken from you illegally.

Its like making an assumption that an orange is an apple and then basing your entire philosophy on an incorrect assumption.

If a government says they are going to tax you prior to coming into power, then if the people vote for it, than its legal No theft at all.

If they say vote for us and we wont tax you, and then they do, then thats a broken promise and therefore not right.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

So, what was the percentage of the vote, was it 100%? Did all the people agree to give? How about those not yet old enough to vote, did they get the choice?

Maybe things are different where you are, but our taxes, in the USA, our Income tax is stolen from us. The government takes many things, and hence my stance on choice.

If not all 100% of the people said, yes tax me, I will gladly pay for you who need, then those that said no are being robbed, and those who said yes, helped them be robbed.

[lundbaek]

Just because the voters vote for a certain program or legislation does not make it legal. Not in our constitutional republic. Any law, action, or program that violates the US Constitution would be illegal. Not that it matters to most Americans any more.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

It is beginning to matter to more and more all the time!

We are here getting educated after all!

[ChelC]

Yes, absolutely stolen.

Taken without my consent = stolen.

I never once voted to have my taxes raised. I've voted against every tax increase that I've had opportunity to vote on. But heck, I also take some of the stolen money because the government decided my kids are worth $1000 bucks a pop. I anticipate that in a few years we'll hit another tax bracket though and once again will be payers instead of takers. So not only does the government steal from me over here, but if I want to do a legal return, it forces me to take from someone else over there too.

Anywho Moses, it's clear you are very liberal leaning and you adore socialism. What can I really say that matters? When you lean that way we are pretty much going to disagree on everything. Have you ever read the communist manifesto? If not, I suggest it. You may find yourself agreeing on a lot of what's said, and that is a pretty clear message that you've been conned.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

This of course has reference to the US

The ten planks of the Communist Manifesto:


1. Abolition of private property and the application of all rent to public purpose.
The 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868), and various zoning, school & property taxes. Also the Bureau of Land Management

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Misapplication of the 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913, The Social Security Act of 1936.; Joint House Resolution 192 of 1933; and various State "income" taxes. We call it "paying your fair share".

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance
We call it Federal & State estate Tax (1916); or reformed Probate Laws, and limited inheritance via arbitrary inheritance tax statutes.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels
We call in government seizures, tax liens, Public "law" 99-570 (1986); Executive order 11490, sections 1205, 2002 which gives private land to the Department of Urban Development; the imprisonment of "terrorists" and those who speak out or write against the "government" (1997 Crime/Terrorist Bill); or the IRS confiscation of property without due process.

5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
We call it the Federal Reserve which is a credit/debt system nationally organized by the Federal Reserve act of 1913. All local banks are members of the Fed system, and are regulated by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC). This private bank has an exclusive monopoly in money creation which in reality has ended the need for revenue from taxes. So why do they tax? To FOOL YOU into thinking they need them.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transportation in the hands of the State
We call it the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) and Department of Transportation (DOT) madated through the ICC act of 1887, the Commissions Act of 1934, The Interstate Commerce Commission established in 1938, The Federal Aviation Administration, Federal Communications Commission, and Executive orders 11490, 10999, as well as State mandated driver's licenses and Department of Transportation regulations. There is also the postal monopoly, AMTRACK and CONRAIL

7. Extention of factories and instruments of production owned by the State, the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
We call it corporate capacity, The Desert Entry Act and The Department of Agriculture. As well as the Department of Commerce and Labor, Department of Interior, the Evironmental Protection Agency, Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Reclamation, Bureau of Mines, National Park Service, and the IRS control of business through corporate regulations.

8. Equal liablity of all to labor. Establishment of Industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
We call it the Social Security Administration and The Department of Labor. The National debt and inflation caused by the communal bank has caused the need for a two "income" family. Woman in the workplace since the 1920's, the 19th amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, assorted Socialist Unions, affirmative action, the Federal Public Works Program and of course Executive order 11000. And I almost forgot...The Equal Rights Amendment means that women should do all work that men do including the military and since passage it would make women subject to the draft.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.
We call it the Planning Reorganization act of 1949 , zoning (Title 17 1910-1990) and Super Corporate Farms, as well as Executive orders 11647, 11731 (ten regions) and Public "law" 89-136.

10. Free education for all children in government schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. etc.
People are being taxed to support what we call 'public' schools, which train the young to work for the communal debt system. We also call it the Department of Education, the NEA and Outcome Based "Education"

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

Here is another take on it:

The Communist Manifesto

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. Property tax paid annually prevents the outright ownership of property, because if property can be confiscated for taxes owed, it can never truly be owned. The application of our rents of land (property taxes)are used for public purposes as envisioned by Karl Marx.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. The income tax was imposed upon the people briefly after the War Between The Southern States and The dictatorial Federal Government. In 1895, The US Supreme Court abolished it with the words, "The income tax is indeed a direct tax and therefore unconstitutional". The Court understood that, "No capitation, or other direct Tax shall be laid,..." Art. 1, Sec. 9, of the US Constitution, means exactly what it says. However, in 1913 there were enough socialist in Congress to again foist the income tax upon the people with the 16th Amendment to the Constitution. The income tax is not designed just to raise taxes, which could be accomplished very easily with a national sales tax. Instead, its goal is to punish achievement, invade privacy, and control the people through fear and intimidation from the most gestapo-like arm of our government, the I.R.S.

3. Abolition of all right of inheritance. Our inheritance tax puts all rights of inheritance in jeopardy. Property tax, income tax, and inheritance tax, should be abolished because they are all direct taxes and they all violate our God-given property rights. They could be replaced with indirect taxes like sales tax, tobacco tax, alcohol tax, or gasoline tax. Some advantages of indirect taxes are:
* They are indeed Constitutional.
* Our privacy would be protected.
* Everyone who spends money participates including the super-wealthy, foreign visitors, illegal aliens, drug dealers, and others now in the underground economy.
* It is a pay as you go system - no April 15th.
* The IRS and all associated collection cost would be eliminated.
* Lower production cost will allow business to compete internationally.
* Prices would come down more than enough to cover the sales tax increase.
* Business would expand creating new jobs.
* The money now in off-shore tax-havens would flood back into this country stimulating the economy.
* Manufacturing would come back home absent the over-taxation and over-regulation that drove them to foreign countries.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. Our government does not normally confiscate property of emigrants, however, many laws and regulations have been passed in recent years which allow many government agencies such as the I.R.S., O.S.H.A., E.P.A., B.L.M., and drug enforcement agencies to confiscate property from citizens that are considered rebels. Much of this confiscation is achieved without due process of law.

5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. The Federal Reserve System was created in 1913. It is not federally owned and nothing is in reserve. It is a private corporation with the power to increase or decrease the money supply by changing the interest rates and the reserve requirements of its member banks. It can create money out of thin air, lend it to the government and then collect the principal and interest from the taxpayers. That is why its owners always have and always will promote war and socialism to create inextinguishable government debt.

"Permit me to control the currency of a nation and I care not who makes its laws" Baron De Rothschild, brainchild of the Federal Reserve Bank.

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." Thomas Jefferson

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. Communication and transportation are controlled by a number of government agencies, e.g., The Federal Communication Commission (FCC), The Dept. of Transportation (DOT), The Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC), The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). Public Television is also a good example of state control of communication for the indoctrination of the concepts of socialism and humanism.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State, the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvements of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. Dan Smoot's book, "The Business End of Government" revealed that, the federal government owned 1165 different businesses like AMTRAC. The Bureau of land Management, The Department of Agriculture, The Department of Commerce, The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), etc., all promote a common plan of more and more regulation and control from government with less and less freedom enjoyed by the people.

8. Equal liability of all to labor and the establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. Heavy taxation, over-regulation, and other economic problems caused by our government's adoption of socialism has forced women to labor equally with men. Our industrial army is the Social Security System which requires membership at birth.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country by a more equitable distribution of population over the country. We are not living under this plank totally. However, we do have many large agriculture corporations who have combined all levels of production from the farm to the consumer. It appears that the goal of this plank is to reduce the number of family farms making it easier to gain control of all food and fiber production. This goal is fast becoming reality.

10. Free education for all children in public schools.... Communist and socialist have long recognized the value of indoctrination through a free educational system. And, it has produced a people with no understanding of the vast differences between the Free Enterprise System and socialism. During our Bicentennial celebrations (1986), a national poll of school children revealed that 46% of them believed that "From him with the most ability - to him with the most need" was part of our Constitution. Today all socialist, all liberals and most democracts believe the same thing.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

You Nazi you!

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

You Nazi you!

I think one Hitler was enough!

[jbalm]

Stolen????? I consent so how is my money stolen. I voted for it freely in the elections so did milions of other men and women.

Interesting perspective. Using that standard, every action that a government takes (or doesn't take) is done with the consent of all the people.

Iraq war-If you live in the U.S., U.K., or any other nation that is part of the "coalition of the willing," then you consent to that war;

Darfur-Since the government hasn't taken steps to end the killing there, nobody thinks its worth doing;

Secret prisons and rendition flights-same story;

etc.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

Government is by consent of the governed. If consent is no longer forthcoming a change in government is required to restore the sovereignty of the people. We ARE to blame for the actions of OUR government. We consent either by action or by inaction. We the people should impeach, recall, sue, petition, and appeal for all we are worth or else we must separate ourselves from the monster. We should not be led about so easily. Does that make me a hypocrite? Come walk a mile in my shoes and see.

[Steve Clark]

Stolen?????

Its like making an assumption that an orange is an apple and then basing your entire philosophy on an incorrect assumption.

This I completely agree with. The difference is in who sees the orange and who sees the apple.

As I can tell, your premise is that government=authority to grant/restrict rights. Although you may not agree, this is what you are saying - that once government has established a "law" it supersedes any other natural laws inherit in man (rights by God).

Most of the rest of us say that Rights come from God and when any action is taken to undermine them, this is oppression and therefor bad.

I can accept that you may understand our position and just plainly disagree. If this is the case, then I have great sorrow for your situation. On the other hand, you may not truly understand rights and hence cannot progress to the next step of understanding when government has overstepped its bounds and has become oppressive. If this is the case, there may be hope for you yet. I would encourage you to read "The Proper Role of Government" by ETB. I am pretty sure it can be found at LDSConservative.com. Also, there is a fantastic book entitled "The Law" by Bastiat. ETB quotes from this book in his paper.

As to the other points you made about charity and service for your fellow man. Of course I agree we should be constantly mindful of those less fortunate. It is well to look at the way the Church deals with this. The poor amongst us are benefited from fast offerings - not enforced by any sort of compulsion by the Church. Another way the members help is by giving time for service. Again, completely voluntary. There are always sign-up sheets floating around my ward to help out in many areas. Last point I wish to make is the way the Church operates its welfare system in Salt Lake. If a father of a family is out of a job, he goes to his bishop, and the bishop assesses his needs. The bishop will do his best to help the brother find new employment, and the brother may be asked to work at one of the Church's welfare institutions canning food, sorting clothes, or doing something else. The Church does not support giving free handouts to everybody who comes asking. If the Church were run like the government you seem to support, fast offerings would be mandatory at a certain percent, punishable by jail time or other loss of liberties. Once the fast offerings were collected, they would be dispersed to those whose individual needs are based on an average for a fiscal year. Please note that if the Church went to this mode of fast offering, people would not get the blessings of charitable donations as it is not voluntary.

I believe the way we are to help the poor and down trodden is the way the Church does. This is completely different than the way our current gov't is running things.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

Most of the rest of us say that Rights come from God and when any action is taken to undermine them, this is oppression and therefor bad.

True, but we have to accept that across the board for ALL involuntary taxation then. Otherwise we are just cherry picking our preferred theft worthy causes like defense, the post, fire, water, sewer etc...

In Ezra Taft Benson's writings he mentioned hiring a sheriff. His stipulation (as I remember) was that if the poeple wanted to hire a sheriff they could, but I do not think he got into what is right when 99% wanted a sheriff and 1% did not.

It would be hypocrisy to say that the 1% does have to pay for defense but not to aid an assist orphans with nowhere to go. That is cherry picking. That is why CHH's voluntary taxation and/or tariffs is a good idea (in that respect).

[jbalm]

Government is by consent of the governed.

This is the ideal. But it hardly qualifies as a maxim. For this statement to be considered a truism, it must be qualified as in the Declaration of Independence, to wit:

Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

Of course, the corollary to the above statement, per Jonathan Swift is:

For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the very definition of slavery.

We ARE to blame for the actions of OUR government.

To an extent this is still true. But the further away we drift from the government envisioned by the founding fathers, the less control we have over the government's actions, and are accordingly apportioned less blame.

We consent either by action or by inaction. We the people should impeach, recall, sue, petition, and appeal for all we are worth or else we must separate ourselves from the monster. We should not be led about so easily.

Then we get back to whether or not we are in the majority (in the case of elections) or on the prevailing side in general. There are losers in elections, lawsuits fail (or are disallowed to begin with), and petitions can be ignored. Failed efforts to resist oppression do not equal consent to said oppression.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

That's well and good, but then how do we explain away our obligation to support freedom, oppose oppression, etc... Your response insinuates that the rule of law is THE ONLY STANDARD that is iron clad clear through despotism (as opposed to the consent of the governed which is transient). That we must just buck up and take it despite the obligation spoken of in the Declaration of Independence, which is specifically to be enforced by blood if needs be.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

Government derives it's just powers from the consent of the governed. If those thus governed and not consenting refused to lend their power to the state, the state would have no power of itself. The government is a piece of paper (or rather many of them). The only people are the governed and criminals. Criminals need to be punished by citizens arrest powers from which ALL police and military powers are derived. The military is the largest bloc of Ron Paul supporters, and yet they grant their consent to the rule of tyranny. It is precisely that consent that makes them (us) responsible. Otherwise anybody that says oh gosh gee guys I'm the new boss and you have to do what I say becomes the defacto leader (since the rule of law and rights bows in despotism to the assertions of tyranny!

[shadow]

I don't agree with JFK or his "Don't ask what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" statement. The whole purpose of government is what it can do for you, and that is to protect my rights. That's why we "hired" them. The question should be What is the proper role of government? Ezra T. Benson did a great job answering that question. The answer is to protect my rights, my God given rights. Do I have a right to ASK my neighbor for help? Yes! Does he have a right to say no? Yes! Do I have a right to rob him/her? No!! Most taxes rob. Let's say I choose to not pay taxes. What happens to me?? I go to jail!! So I guess I non longer have rights to the fruits of my labor. Good job Moses!! That's Satans plan.

Are you familiar with Star Trek??
The Borg are without question one of the most fearsome and relentless forces in the Milky Way galaxy. A massive society of automatons abducted and assimilated from thousands of species, the Borg Collective is intent on achieving "perfection" by spreading it's influence into every corner of space, consuming technologies and individuals without conscience, obliterating entire civilizations in it's wake. And it has a particular interest in incorporating the human race into it's "hive".

"In their collective state, the Borg are utterly without mercy..driven by one will alone, the will to conquer. They are beyond redemption, beyond reason." - Captain Jean Luc Picard

The Borg represent socialism in it's fullest, communism.

[Steve Clark]

Most of the rest of us say that Rights come from God and when any action is taken to undermine them, this is oppression and therefor bad.

True, but we have to accept that across the board for ALL involuntary taxation then. Otherwise we are just cherry picking our preferred theft worthy causes like defense, the post, fire, water, sewer etc...

In Ezra Taft Benson's writings he mentioned hiring a sheriff. His stipulation (as I remember) was that if the poeple wanted to hire a sheriff they could, but I do not think he got into what is right when 99% wanted a sheriff and 1% did not.

It would be hypocrisy to say that the 1% does have to pay for defense but not to aid an assist orphans with nowhere to go. That is cherry picking. That is why CHH's voluntary taxation and/or tariffs is a good idea (in that respect).

I must apologize for grouping everybody else in "the rest of us."

It doesn't have to be cherry picking. There are Constitutional means through which funds can be raised for the NECESSARY functions of the Fed Gov.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

By constitutional means, what specifically are you referring to that does not require forced taxation?

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

User fees? That's where my support solely lies.