Freedom (spiritual vs temporal)

[Moses]

I dont know any quotes from Pres Monson. I do know however that in my life in the church I have heard on more than one occasion in talks and articles,that even under soviet rule, or in prison, that freedom is not surrendered. True freedom cant be taken from any man,a long as he can think and say " if was able I would do this or that" if a man prays in his heart he is free. Freedom is like peace, and Jesus said. "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."

It is my belief that the freedoms that are so much discussed are in fact worldly freedoms , or worldy peace. Jesus promise is for something quite different.

Where freedom is lost , taking that drug or drink or cigarette, falling into immorality,chosing to sin, then we cease to be free as our own desires then enslave us. these are the real losses of freedoms.The only way back to freedom once lost is repentance.

[Bircher]

FALSE DOCTRINE

When anyone says "I heard...." You should beware.

All the quotes throughout LDSconservative shows that we have a duty to maintain freedom. If it was had no matter what, we would have NO duty to work to preserve it. Check out LDSconservative for documentation, or for a brief overview, view this short video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8275064416

[HeirofNumenor]

I actually agree with Moses on his last comment. I remember Holocaust survivor Viktor Frankel saying much the same thing, that the Nazis (then the Soviets at the time he spoke) could take away his freedom of action, his job, his home, even his life, but they could not take away his freedom of thought, or attitude, or faith -- he held all those things inside of him, where the enemy could not enter, unless he gave them that permission through his fears, discouragement, whatever.

[Bircher]

to say that only liberty can be taken away through drugs and what not is just silly. Sure you can think whatever you want while a slave, we were sent here to be accountable for our actions, and when that is taken away, an extremely grievous sin is committed.

[creator]

I do know however that in my life in the church I have heard on more than one occasion in talks and articles,that even under soviet rule, or in prison, that freedom is not surrendered. True freedom cant be taken from any man,a long as he can think and say " if was able I would do this or that" if a man prays in his heart he is free.

we have a duty to maintain freedom.

I believe that both "types" of freedom are important. While it is true, as Moses stated, that even if our freedom to act outwardly is taken away, no one can take away our freedom to believe and think what we want in our mind... IT IS OUR DUTY to do all that we can to ensure that we never get into that situation in the first place. We all have a duty to defend our freedom from the Tyrants that would like to take it from us. In the societies mentioned by Moses, those people, mostly through apathy, ignorance and inaction allowed themselves to be enslaved to the point where the only freedoms they had left were the internal spiritual freedoms of thought/faith/belief.... however, it is "wordly freedom" that makes it possible for many to even have a knowledge of Christ. It has often been stated in general conference that the American Revolution was necessary for the true Church of Christ to be established once again.. I better provide a reference:

The creation of such a government was a necessary prerequisite to the restoration of the gospel. There would have been little point in the Lord’s establishing his church among people who were not free to accept it. For a thousand years he had carefully prepared the world for the restoration of the gospel, and the American Constitutional Convention was one of the final events in that preparation. [Frank W. Fox and LeGrand L. Baker, “Wise Men Raised Up,” Ensign, June 1976, 27]

Harold B. Lee counseled us to continually fight for our freedoms:

The kingdom of God must be a continuing revolution against the norms of the society that fall below the standards that are set for us in the gospel of Jesus Christ. In the field of public life, it must be a continuing revolution against proposals that contradict the fundamental principles as laid down in the Constitution of the United States, which was written by men whom God raised up for this very purpose. If we remember that, we will be in the forefront of every battle against the things that are tearing down our society. (Harold B. Lee "Keep Your Lamp Lighted" 104)

Joseph Fielding Smith:

The art of printing along with the other inventions and discoveries which preceded the coming of Moroni and the restoration of the Gospel, had to be revealed before the Church could be established in the earth. The framing of the American Constitution, we well know, was by divine inspiration. And thus, revealing line upon line and precept upon precept, the Lord prepared the way for the restoration of His work in fulness in the earth. (The Signs of the Times 157)

Ezra Taft Benson, “Our Divine Constitution,” Ensign, Nov. 1987, 4:

Our Father in Heaven planned the coming forth of the Founding Fathers and their form of government as the necessary great prologue leading to the restoration of the gospel. Recall what our Savior Jesus Christ said nearly two thousand years ago when He visited this promised land: “For it is wisdom in the Father that they should be established in this land, and be set up as a free people by the power of the Father, that these things might come forth” (3 Ne. 21:4). America, the land of liberty, was to be the Lord’s latter-day base of operations for His restored church.

Ezra Taft Benson:

It is my conviction that only in this land, under this God-inspired Constitution, under an environment of freedom, could it have been possible to have established the Church and kingdom of God and restored the gospel in its fulness. It is our responsibility, my brethren and sisters, to see that this freedom is maintained, so that the Church can flourish in the future. ("Our Duty as Citizens" 920, 922)

I hope we can all conclude that both freedoms are important and necessary: political/wordly & spiritual freedom.

[Moses]

I think of fanatics and I think of those who would silence all those who disagree with us. HAHA Touch'e

Seriously though, Christ said He that shall lose his life for my sake , he shall find it.

He said Charity seeketh not its own, is not puffed up etc etc.....

All through his ministry he emphasised the vainess of worldy possessions and 'worldy rights' If thy brother compell thee to one a mile, walk with him twain, If your coat is stolen give the thief your cloak also.

There are as many quotes against wresting with evil as there are saying fight for your rights. Im not saying lay down and let people walk all over you.

My faith and confidence has taken me through life thus far and I cant remember or recognise a freedom that I have been deprived of. Because I have always had my private thougths, my nostalgia, my photos of my parents. Even my mental puhotos of them.

On my mission I think it was the worst time for losing that which was dear to me for the first 6 months. Until I learned to let go of my possessions and memories of them.

Theres a song that I like , it is set in India and theres this line that says "When the mint runs out , our real life follows."

When we are naked and hungry and have some liberty taken from us, just at a time when we might say things are bad. its that time when we get our revelation or the strength to go to the next level.

When we were a Branch in England we were in an old almost derelict bulding, we dreamed and talked of the day when we would have our own chapel. we sacrificed so much for that Chapel and years later when we had the Chapel we took it for granted and we seemed not to have any lofty goals to aim for.

Why am I telling you all this? Its just that I do know that in adversity and that includes having liberties curbed, If we stay true and faithful, then we are so free.

I reiterate that no man can take your liberty without your consent, your eternal spirit can fight all things.

Remember Joseph when he was cast into prison by Pottifer, he ended up even greater. because of how he handled his afflictions.

Bless you everyone Its good to know you all.

[Moses]

to say that only liberty can be taken away through drugs and what not is just silly

Try getting hooked on drugs and then tell me you feel free.

[a-train]

Seriously though, Christ said He that shall lose his life for my sake , he shall find it.

This is certainly true. Many have given their life for Communism, Socialism, and other things. We must give our lives to God.

-a-train

[Moses]

This is certainly true. Many have given their life for Communism, Socialism, and other things. We must give our lives to God.

If you give your life for your brother whether he be socialist Communist democrat or nondescript. it is still counted as good.

You think you are any better than a communist? Without Christ you are nothing. A communist who dies without the Gospel has every chance of making it to the celestial kingdom. I cant do with all this passing judgement on people. According to CHH I am a servant of the Devil. All I can say is that with a disposition like his, well he should know!!!

[shadow]

A communist who dies without the Gospel has every chance of making it to the celestial kingdom.

So a communist without the gospel can repent after he dies? That means he can see the error of his ways and change. He recognizes the principles being broken under communism and rejects them. Can he only do that after he dies?

[a-train]

This is certainly true. Many have given their life for Communism, Socialism, and other things. We must give our lives to God.

If you give your life for your brother whether he be socialist Communist democrat or nondescript. it is still counted as good.

You think you are any better than a communist? Without Christ you are nothing. A communist who dies without the Gospel has every chance of making it to the celestial kingdom. I cant do with all this passing judgement on people. According to CHH I am a servant of the Devil. All I can say is that with a disposition like his, well he should know!!!

Now you can see plainly that I didn't say that giving our life for our brother is discounted if he be a communist. Jesus gave his life for all the communists, socialists, capitalists, and scientists. But, He didn't die for communism, socialism, capitalism, or science.

-a-train