Christopher Columbus

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caddis
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Christopher Columbus

Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:02 pm

Hey y'all! Recently a debate started at a family gathering about whether or not Columbus was a 'good'/honorable man. Half of the family said that because the BOM mentions an 'inspired' man that he was. The other side brought up all of the millions of Natives that died as a result of the discovery. I am not sure where I stand exactly. Can someone point me in the right direction (i.e. church talks or other articles) where I may be able to gain a better understanding? Also, personal opinions are welcome as well.

Thanks

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:49 pm

It is arguably doctrinal that Moroni appeared to him and assisted him to find America. He is not directly responsible for the actions that followed the discovery. I do not know how "good" he was (a very relative term), but he lived up to the light he had, sufficient to receive inspiration.

LDC

Now let me tell you a little something, an interesting story, that some of you may not have heard. In the early days of the Church, Orson Hyde was called to be one of the original Twelve Apostles by the Prophet Joseph. He served under three presidents of the Church–the Prophet Joseph, Brigham Young, and John Taylor. He was one of the great Apostles of this dispensation of time. He gave a talk in the Salt Lake Tabernacle on July 4, 1854. That’s only seven years after they came into the valley. (Now, it’s not the Tabernacle we know now, but the one they originally built.) That talk was a patriotic talk about America. He called Moroni the “guardian angel of America.” He said, “That same angel of God that appeared to Joseph Smith presides over the destiny of the United States of America.” Elder Hyde said that he [Moroni] was in the camp with George Washington. He [Moroni] helped George Washington when he had trouble. He said that same angel was with Christopher Columbus and gave him deep impressions and dreams and visions respecting the new world. He said that same angel was with Columbus on the stormy deep. He guided his frail vessel to the desired haven, and he calmed the troubled elements.


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LDC

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caddis
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:22 pm

"he lived up to the light he had, sufficient to receive inspiration."


Good point Swiss. That's definitely something for me to ponder. Thanks for that.

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lundbaek
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:33 pm

Christopher Columbus was among those "others" who appeared to Wilford Woodruff at the St George Temple in August 1877 with George Washington plus 54 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence and asked that their temple work be done for them. Microfilm copies of the books containing the recording of their baptisms and endowments can be viewed at the Family History Library in SLC. The Film Nr. showing the baptisms I think is 0180744, and it was a real thrill for me to look for myself and see the names of all those Founding Fathers, many of their family members, other men and women like the early US presidents, Union Civil War Admiral Farragut ( "Full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes"), Jane Austin, Charlotte Bronte, Marie Antoinette, and scads of others. On later pages are recorded the baptisms of many Eastern Indian Chiefs like Techumseh, Black Hawk and many other chiefs. The records of their endowments are on different film and scattered over many more pages as they are mixed in with other names

And BTW, Columbus was one of the few ordained a High Priest. Following is from my files on this topic.



WILFORD WOODRUFF'S LABORS FOR THE DEAD IN THE ST. GEORGE TEMPLE
(Compiled and written by David Kenison, Orem, Utah,)
[Here are two accounts of Pres. Woodruff's experience with the founding fathers of the United States in the St. George Temple. Thanks to Ryan Barney for suggesting this event.]
“We have labored in the St. George Temple since January, and we have done all we could there; and the Lord has stirred up our minds, and many things have been revealed to us concerning the dead. President Young has said to us, and it is verily so, if the dead could they would speak in language loud as ten thousand thunders, calling upon the servants of God to rise up and build Temples, magnify their calling and redeem their dead. This doubtless sounds strange to those present who believe not the faith and doctrine of the Latter-day Saints; but when we get to the spirit-world we will find out that all that God has revealed is true. We will find, too, that everything there is reality, and that God has a body, parts and passions, and the erroneous idea that exist now with regard to him will have passed away. I feel to say little else to the Latter-day Saints wherever and whenever I have the opportunity of speaking to them, that to call upon them to build these Temples now under way, to hurry them up to completion. The dead will be after you, they will seek after you as they have after us in St. George. They called upon us, knowing that we held the keys and power to redeem them.

“I will here say, before closing, that two weeks before I left St. George, the spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they, You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized from it, but we remained true to it and were faithful to God. These were the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and they waited on me for two days and two nights. I thought it very singular, that notwithstanding so much work had been done, and yet nothing had been done for them. The thought never entered my heart, from the fact, I suppose, that heretofore our minds were reaching after our more immediate friends and relatives. I straightway went into the baptismal font and called upon brother McCallister to baptize me for the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and fifty other eminent men, making one hundred in all, including John Wesley, Columbus, and others; I then baptized him for every President of the United States, except three; and when their cause is just, somebody will do the work for them.

“I have to felt to rejoice exceedingly in this work of redeeming the dead. I do not wonder at President Young saying he felt moved upon to call upon the Latter-day Saints to hurry up the building of these Temples. He felt the importance of the work; but now he has gone, it rests with us to continue it, and God will bless our labors and we will have joy therein. This is a preparation necessary for the second advent of the Savior; and when we shall have built the Temples now contemplated, we will then begin to see the necessity of building others, for in proportion to the diligence of our labors in this direction, will we comprehend the extent of the work to be done, and the present is only a beginning. When the savior comes, a thousand years will be devoted to this work of redemption; and Temples will appear all over this land of Joseph.--North and South America--and also in Europe and elsewhere; and all the descendants of Shem, Ham, and Japheth who received not the Gospel in the flesh, must be officiated for in the temples of God, before the Savior can present the kingdom to the Father, saying, It is finished.
(Journal of Discourses, Vol.19, pp. 229-31; September 16, 1877)
“I am going to bear my testimony to this assembly, if I never do it again in my life, that those men who laid the foundation of this American government and signed the Declaration of Independence were the best spirits the God of Heaven could find on the face of the earth. They were choice spirits, not wicked men. General Washington and all the men that labored for the purpose were inspired of the Lord.
Another thing I am going to say here, because I have a right to say it. Every one of those men that signed the Declaration of Independence with General Washington, called upon me as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Temple at St. George, two consecutive nights, and demanded at my hands that I should go forth and attend to the ordinances of the House of God for them. Men are here, I believe, that know of this, Brother J. D. T. McAllister, David H. Cannon and James S. Bleak. Brother McAllister baptized me for all those men, and then I told these brethren that it was their duty to go into the temple and labor until they had got endowments for all of them. They did it. Would those spirits have called upon me as an elder of Israel, to perform that work, if they had not been noble spirits before God? They would not. I bear this testimony because it is true. The Spirit of God bore record to myself and the brethren while we were laboring in that way.”

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ShawnC
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Re: Christopher Columbus

Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:52 pm

caddis wrote:Hey y'all! Recently a debate started at a family gathering about whether or not Columbus was a 'good'/honorable man. Half of the family said that because the BOM mentions an 'inspired' man that he was. The other side brought up all of the millions of Natives that died as a result of the discovery. I am not sure where I stand exactly. Can someone point me in the right direction (i.e. church talks or other articles) where I may be able to gain a better understanding? Also, personal opinions are welcome as well.

Thanks


The natives being killed as they were was part of the curse put on them and mentioned in the BoM.

Shawn

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AussieOi
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:11 pm

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:It is arguably doctrinal that Moroni appeared to him and assisted him to find America. He is not directly responsible for the actions that followed the discovery. I do not know how "good" he was (a very relative term), but he lived up to the light he had, sufficient to receive inspiration.

LDC

Now let me tell you a little something, an interesting story, that some of you may not have heard. In the early days of the Church, Orson Hyde was called to be one of the original Twelve Apostles by the Prophet Joseph. He served under three presidents of the Church–the Prophet Joseph, Brigham Young, and John Taylor. He was one of the great Apostles of this dispensation of time. He gave a talk in the Salt Lake Tabernacle on July 4, 1854. That’s only seven years after they came into the valley. (Now, it’s not the Tabernacle we know now, but the one they originally built.) That talk was a patriotic talk about America. He called Moroni the “guardian angel of America.” He said, “That same angel of God that appeared to Joseph Smith presides over the destiny of the United States of America.” Elder Hyde said that he [Moroni] was in the camp with George Washington. He [Moroni] helped George Washington when he had trouble. He said that same angel was with Christopher Columbus and gave him deep impressions and dreams and visions respecting the new world. He said that same angel was with Columbus on the stormy deep. He guided his frail vessel to the desired haven, and he calmed the troubled elements.


also:
LDC




Doesn't the Lord use the wicked to destroy the wicked? Does it say in the BofM that he was a good man? Just that the spirit moved upon him and guided him.
There was no law, no priesthood then, different rules.
From all I have seen of him he was a hideous human being who desired gold and wealth at any cost and died in such a way, there were very few, if any, redeeming qualities about him.

Bro Hyde was not the president of the church.

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AussieOi
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Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:23 pm

lundbaek wrote:Christopher Columbus was among those "others" who appeared to Wilford Woodruff at the St George Temple in August 1877 with George Washington plus 54 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence and asked that their temple work be done for them. other men and women like the early US presidents, Union Civil War Admiral Farragut ( "Full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes"), Jane Austin, Charlotte Bronte, Marie Antoinette, and scads of others. On later pages are recorded the baptisms of many Eastern Indian Chiefs like Techumseh, Black Hawk and many other chiefs. The records of their endowments are on different film and scattered over many more pages as they are mixed in with other names

And BTW, Columbus was one of the few ordained a High Priest.





When I learn that such charitable humans as Marie Antoinette, and Henry the 8th were endowed, I think surely I've got a pretty good shot of making it to heaven.

Didn't the constitution say all manking are born free? that we have inalienable rights? Weren't Jefferson and Washington two of the biggest slave owners in the country at the time? And when did Blacks get the right to vote in the USA?

What a big fat mess, your own founders didn't even believe their own constitution. They aren't exactly up there at the front of my line of posthumous endowments. There is a difference between fulfilling events, and being great human beings contributing to the world we live in.

If it ain't canonised, I don't buy it, nor do I have to. On this basis, all evidence points to Columbus being another greedy imperialist, perhaps a Knights Templar. Surely not every historian has a beef with him, because they all let him have it as a hideous human being.

His fruits don't stand out and grab us as being for the betterment of society. We Australians can name a half a dozen explorers such as James Cook, Matthew Flinders, Van Diemen that also had impact and found places, but to speculate on their lives is almost pointless. They came, they found, but who knows what they were like as people.

In any regard the Vikings were visiting, the Chinese had visited, the Indians were already here, all he did was pave the way for the catholic church, greedy monarchs and diseased sailors to exploit a continent and exterminate his people. Hardly bought much great to the place, just fulfilled some prophecy- which is a time loop anyway.

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lundbaek
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Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:19 am

I think some people fail to realize that the people in question were permitted to approach the St. George Temple President inside the temple. Their names were not drawn out of a hat.

The perspectives of these people given us by historians may well be even less accurate than those given us by the mainstream, controlled media of Ron Paul, McCain, Romney, etc.

I recently did research and work under some compulsion for a deceased man who was accused (but never brought to trial) of treason, illegally imprisoned for about 5 years, and hounded the rest of his life. His crime - discovering and copying correspondence between FDR and Churchill discussing getting the USA into WW2 at the same time in 1940 that FDR was telling American voters he would keep the USA out of WW2.

History is replete with false stories, in case no one has noticed.

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Jnewby
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Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:25 am

Mainstream Media controlled by Ron Paul???

I guess you lost me there. To the best of my knowledge, Ron Paul has been black-listed in the mainstream media and outside the internet, wouldn't even get the time of day.

Our newspaper here in IL. did a study that shows Ron Paul had at best only 2-3% mainstream media coverage as compared to the likes of McCain, Romney, Guiliani, Obama, Clinton and the likes who each had between 22-35% coverage. Bear in mind that is coverage when compared with those in the same party.

That hardly sounds or looks like media control.

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lundbaek
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Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:43 am

I guess I did lose you with my lousy grammar. Those I named and others have been grossly misrepresented in the media, one way ot the other. The media tried hard to controll what we learned about each of them. I hope thaat's clear now.

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Jnewby
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Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:00 am

Makes sense, thanks for the clarification.

The real kicker when it comes to Ron Paul and the others, now that Romney is out, what will the 'faithful' members of the church do now. Only far left (Clinton, Obama, McCain, Huckabee) Dems left in the running.

Will they actually awaken from their slumber and vote for the 'inspired' constitution or prostitute themselves further and vote party line? Interesting times we live in.

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lundbaek
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Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:10 am

Ron Paul is still officially in the running, as far as I know.

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Jnewby
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Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:33 am

That's my point, will they change their votes to support the constitution (Ron Paul) or such blindly following evil wherever it takes them.

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Mark
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Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:33 am

How can I say this nicely Aussie. You are once again getting taken in by liberalisms love of revisionist history. I have heard it so many times from the radical leftists of this country and around the world. Demonize the founders. Demonize Columbus. Tear apart those who have contributed in a positive way to our foundations that were based on a love for freedom and liberty. Liberalisms goal is to re-write history so as to justify the failed philosophies of socialism and communism. Don't let them influence you as they apparently are. Reject their revisionsit clap trap and realize their goals are to mislead you.

For your enlightenment I will post an article by a good friend Daniel Petersen of BYU who reviewed a book written by Arnold Garr about Columbus. He was by no means a perfect man but He was not who many of the revisionists suggest like you Aussie some wicked man with little or no redeeming qualities. Far from it in fact. He was ordained a High Priest after his baptism in the St. George temple. I would be careful what you say about him in ignorance. You may regret it once you pass thru the veil Bro.


Christ-Bearer
Review of Christopher Columbus: A Latter-day Saint Perspective by Arnold K. Garr
Reviewed By: Daniel C. Peterson
Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute, 1996. Pp. 104–11

The views expressed in this article are the views of the author and do not represent the position of the Maxwell Institute, Brigham Young University, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.




Christopher Columbus: A Latter-day Saint Perspective
Arnold K. Garr

Foreword by DeLamar Jensen. Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1992. xv +103 pp., with index. $8.95.
Reviewed by Daniel C. Peterson

Christ-Bearer

And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land. (1 Nephi 13:12)

Some months ago, while my family and I sat around the dinner table, the name of Christopher Columbus came up. Instantly, my thirteen-year-old son volunteered the judgment that Columbus wasn't really much of a hero, that he was, in fact, the villain behind the extermination of millions of native Americans and the indirect cause of the pollution of the air, water, and soil of the New World.

I can only assume that my son had absorbed this ideological-tripe-masquerading-as-history at our local junior high school, or else, perhaps, during the Columbus Quincentennial of 1992 at his elementary school. Unfortunately, such disinformation is common nowadays, though I confess I had not previously thought it such a problem in the public schools of Utah.

I immediately recommended Arnold Garr's book, Christopher Columbus: A Latter-day Saint Perspective, to my son. While Columbus's life was not entirely saintly, and while aspects of his legacy certainly call for reflection and even regret, on balance he is a remarkable historical figure whose persistence, courage, skillfulness, and spiritual sensitivity are fully deserving of admiration.

Latter-day Saints, of course, have special reason for paying attention to the career of the great "Admiral of the Ocean Sea." Since the publication of the Book of Mormon in 1830, it has been virtually universally recognized that 1 Nephi 13:12, quoted as the epigram to this review, refers to Columbus, who thus emerges from the very pages of scripture itself as an important, foreordained actor in the divine plan.

Skeptical readers of the Book of Mormon, to the extent that they have noticed the passage at all, have dismissed it as a cheap and easy instance of prophecy ex eventu, written by Joseph Smith (or Sidney Rigdon, or Ethan Smith, or Solomon Spaulding, or whomever) long after Columbus's career, but postdated, as it were, in order to create a seemingly impressive and self-validating prediction by an ancient prophetic writer. At the very most, some have said, the "prophecy" of Columbus hardly constitutes evidence for the antiquity or inspiration of the Book of Mormon.

On a surface level, such critics are right. It would have taken little talent in the late 1820s for someone to prophesy the discovery of America nearly three and a half centuries earlier. But the description of Columbus provided by 1 Nephi 13:12 remains, in my view, a remarkable demonstration of the revelatory accuracy of the Book of Mormon, and Professor Garr's book clearly sets out the reasons.

It is only with the growth of Columbus scholarship in recent years, and particularly with the translation and publication of Columbus's Libro de las profecías in 1991, that English-speaking readers have been fully able to see how remarkably Columbus's own self-understanding parallels the portrait of him given by the Book of Mormon. Professor Garr's Christopher Columbus: A Latter-day Saint Perspective uses the resources provided by modern scholarship to provide a well-informed and genuinely Mormon view of the great explorer.

Professor Garr, who teaches in the Department of Church History and Doctrine at Brigham Young University, sets out quite explicitly (see p. xiii) to emphasize seven themes relating to Columbus: (1) His discovery of the New World for Europe fulfilled Book of Mormon prophecy. (2) He served as a forerunner to the Restoration. (3) The primary motivation for his exploration was not financial gain, but the spread of Christianity. (4) He was guided by the Spirit of God, most especially on his first voyage to the Americas. (5) He himself believed that he was guided by the Spirit. (6) He regarded many of his achievements as a fulfillment of biblical and other prophecy. (7) Many modern prophets and apostles have held Columbus in great respect. In the course of his discussion, the author sets out a clear summary of Columbus's life and career.1 In this review, I shall highlight a few of the points I found most interesting.

The admiral's son Ferdinand was convinced, as, apparently, was the explorer himself, that the name Christopher Columbus (Italian Cristoforo Colombo) carried significant and divine meaning (see the discussion on pp. 8-10). Columbus means "dove," and Ferdinand was not hesitant to link it with the dove that symbolized the Holy Ghost at the Savior's baptism by John. Even more remarkably, perhaps, Christopher signifies "Christ-bearer," a perfectly appropriate title for the role that Columbus saw himself as playing, and that history did, in fact, assign to him as he opened up the New World for Christian evangelization.2 The great priest and historian Bartolomé de Las Casas (cited on p. 13) said of Columbus that "He was extraordinarily zealous for the divine service; he desired and was eager for the conversion of [the Indians], and that in every region the faith of Jesus Christ be planted and enhanced."3 Indeed, based on his feeling that he was living in the last days, Columbus felt a considerable sense of urgency about taking the gospel to all nations, kindreds, tongues, and peoples before the end of the world (p. 31). Writing to Amerigo Vespucci, the Italian explorer for whom (rather unjustly) the Americas would eventually be named, Columbus himself remarked,

I feel persuaded, by the many and wonderful manifestations of Divine Providence in my especial favour, that I am the chosen instrument of God in bringing to pass a great event—no less than the conversion of millions who are now existing in the darkness of Paganism. (cited on pp. 30, 82)

It is difficult, indeed, to argue with Columbus's perception of "many and wonderful manifestations of Divine Providence in [his] especial favour." Students of his first transoceanic voyage, in particular, have been struck by the fact that Columbus made not a single wrong navigational move during the entire journey (p. 39). For instance, despite the fact that the Azores were the westernmost Atlantic islands known in Columbus's day, and, consequently, the logical point of departure for a westward voyage, Columbus opted to launch his expedition rather from the Canary Islands, off the coast of Africa and considerably to the southeast. In doing so, he caught the tradewinds that blow from the northeast to the southwest and he avoided the headwinds that blow from west to east in the area of the Azores. Indeed, five centuries of sailing have proven Columbus's route to be the best possible course for a voyage from southern Europe to North America (p. 41). Miraculous sea changes and a pair of fateful (and, in at least one case, rationally inexplicable) course corrections (discussed on pp. 43-44) also seem to bear the mark of divine intervention on Columbus's behalf.4 Finally, returning from that important initial voyage, and on the basis of (obviously) no prior transatlantic sailing experience, either his own or anybody else's, Columbus discovered the optimal return route to southern Europe, this time via the Azores (p. 50).5

Referring to his first crossing of the Atlantic, Columbus declared that, "With a hand that could be felt, the Lord opened my mind to the fact that it would be possible to sail from here to the Indies, and he opened my will to desire to accomplish the project. . . . This was the fire that burned within me. . . . Who can doubt that this fire was not merely mine, but also of the Holy Spirit?" (cited on pp. 3, 19, 39, 41, 81). "Our Lord," he said in 1286, "made me the messenger of the new heaven and the new earth, . . . and he showed me the place where to find it" (cited on pp. 52, 83).

Columbus was a serious and close student of the Bible. Latter-day Saints will be interested to learn (on pp. 31, 65) that John 10:16, a verse with which they too are more than a little familiar, was one of Columbus's favorite passages of scripture: "And other sheep I have that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold and one shepherd" (as cited on p. 31). This verse provided significant support for his image of himself as a bearer of the gospel to the New World. And, though he was unacquainted with the writings of Nephi, Columbus was convinced that his role had been predicted by ancient prophets:

The Lord purposed that there should be something clearly miraculous in this matter of the voyage to the Indies. . . . I spent seven years here in your royal court discussing this subject with the leading persons in all learned arts, and their conclusion was that it was vain. That was the end, and they gave it up. But afterwards it all turned out just as our redeemer Jesus Christ had said, and as he had spoken earlier by the mouth of his holy prophets. (cited on pp. 29, 65, 82)

"I pointed out that for the execution of the journey to the Indies I was not aided by intelligence, by mathematics or by maps. It was simply the fulfillment of what Isaiah had prophesied" (cited on pp. 63, 65, 82).

As mentioned earlier, the quite recent publication of Columbus's Book of Prophecies in English translation now permits us a window into his soul. And what we see therein cannot fail to remind Latter-day Saint readers of the Book of Mormon. Columbus was fascinated by such themes as the recovery of the Holy Land and the rebuilding, there, of the ancient Jewish temple (p. 64). One of his favorite scriptures, in this regard, was Isaiah 2:2, which Latter-day Saints will surely recognize: "And in the last days the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be prepared on the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills: and all nations shall flow unto it" (as cited on p. 64). He was also, as mentioned, totally committed to the notion that the gospel had to be preached to the ends of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof brought to Christ, before the end of the world (pp. 64-65). For much of this, just as readers of the Book of Mormon might have guessed, Columbus's favorite author was the prophet Isaiah. Indeed, it was in that prophet's book that Columbus thought he could see himself and his voyages divinely foretold. Among the passages that caught his attention were Isaiah 42:1-4: "Behold my servant: I will uphold him. My elect: My soul [de]lighteth in him. I have given my spirit upon him. . . . and the islands shall wait for his law" (as cited on p. 66), and Isaiah 55:5.

For all of its (justifiable) enthusiasm for the great explorer, Professor Garr's book is not blind to Columbus's faults. During his second voyage to the New World, for instance, Columbus, who was under intense pressure to justify the large amounts of money that had gone to support his expeditions—and who was unable to provide gold in the unrealistic amounts that his backers expected—authorized the drafting of native Americans for forced labor and slave sales.6 "This," says Professor Garr, "was one of the worst decisions Columbus made in his entire life" (p. 59). But it was also a pivotal turning point in his career. The author, who writes quite openly as a faithful Latter-day Saint, and not merely as a purportedly value-neutral historian, notes that,

There is very little evidence in the following few years that [Columbus] received the same kind of divine guidance and inspiration that he had been so blessed with earlier in his life. During the years he served as governor he appeared to be walking by his own light and stumbled along the way. He made several unfortunate decisions and almost everything seemed to go wrong for him. Modern-day revelation teaches that "the heavens withdraw themselves" when men "exercise unrighteous dominion" over others (D&C 121:37, 39). (p. 60)

In fact, Columbus returned from his third voyage to the New World not only unsuccessful, but humiliated, under arrest, and in shackles (pp. 61-63). Nevertheless, it would appear that the Lord had not abandoned him utterly. During a very difficult and distressing period on his fourth and last voyage to the Americas, Columbus lay down aboard his ship, the Capitana, off the coast of Panama.

I fell asleep, and heard a compassionate voice, saying, "O fool, and slow to believe and serve thy God, the God of every man! What more did He do for Moses or for David His servant than for thee? From thy birth He hath ever held thee in special charge. When He saw thee at man's estate, marvelously did He cause thy name to resound over the earth. The Indies, so rich a portion of the world, He gave thee for thine own, and thou hast divided them as it pleased thee. Of those barriers of the Ocean Sea, which were closed with such mighty chains, He hath given thee the keys. Thou was [sic] obeyed in so many lands, and thou has [sic] won noble fame from Christendom. What more did He do for the people of Israel, when He carried them out of Egypt; or for David, whom from a shepherd He raised to be king over Judea? Turn thou to Him and acknowledge thy faults; His mercy is infinite;" . . . I heard all this as in a swoon, but I had no answer to give in definite words;
so true, only to weep for my transgression. (cited on p. 83; cf. p. 68)

When, on 20 May 1506, Columbus breathed his last in Valladolid, Spain, his final words were in manus tuas, Domine, commendo spiritum meum ("into thy hands, O Lord, I commend my spirit") (p. 69). And it seems that his deathbed prayer was heard. On 21 August 1877, under inspiration, President Wilford Woodruff received vicarious baptism for Columbus in the St. George Temple. Three days later, Columbus was vicariously endowed and ordained a high priest in the same temple.

Latter-day Saints, of all people, should not join in the campaign, currently fashionable in some quarters, to denigrate the illustrious Genoese admiral and explorer. The historical record joins with the Book of Mormon to testify that Christopher Columbus, despite his faults, was a chosen and anointed instrument in the hands of God to bring about the divine purpose for the New World. Arnold K. Garr's Christopher Columbus: A Latter-day Saint Perspective sets out the evidence for this proposition clearly and concisely. It is a credit both to the author and to the Religious Studies Center, which published it.

Notes:
1 Along the way, he aims well-deserved criticism at the persistent myth that the scholars of Columbus's time thought the earth was flat (p. 28) and tells of the astonishing reception that the Indians gave to Columbus and his white, bearded shipmates, a reception perhaps to be connected with legends of Christ's appearance in ancient America (pp. 47-48).

2 I am inclined to agree with Professor Garr (on p. 56) that Columbus also played an important part in the fulfillment of 1 Nephi 13:38.

3 In keeping with his deep beliefs, Columbus tended to give religious names—such as San Salvador ("Holy Savior"), La Navidad ("Christmas"), and Trinidad ("Trinity")—to the places he came across (see pp. 46, 61).

4 Professor Garr calls attention (on p. 3) to Orson Hyde's intriguing notion that it was Moroni, acting in a stewardship role for the Americas, who guided and gave impressions to Columbus; see JD 6:368.

5 As we shall see below, the author feels that Columbus was "wrought upon" by the Spirit of God on other occasions besides his first voyage to the Americas. One incident to which he alludes is Columbus's remarkable escape from a shipwreck relatively early in his seafaring career (see p. 20).

6 Although it is only a weak defense, we should note—against contemporary Columbus-despisers—that the admiral was merely going along with the prevailing practices of his day.

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Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:40 am

Jnewby wrote:Makes sense, thanks for the clarification.

The real kicker when it comes to Ron Paul and the others, now that Romney is out, what will the 'faithful' members of the church do now. Only far left (Clinton, Obama, McCain, Huckabee) Dems left in the running.

Will they actually awaken from their slumber and vote for the 'inspired' constitution or prostitute themselves further and vote party line? Interesting times we live in.


I just had this discussion yesterday with my mother-in-law and one of her friends. They were just beside themselves because Romney is out and the rest of the candidates would "ruin" the country. I politely reminded them that Dr. Paul is still in the running and how he is the only candidate that supports the constitution. I also told them how we are instructed in D&C about the importance of upholding the constitution as well as counceled by numerous prophets. They looked at me like I said I had seen a UFO or something.

They basically agreed (amongst themselves) that they would have to vote for McCain in order to keep the evil Hitlary and Obama from winning. I interjected "or you could vote for a man of principle like Dr. Paul and then your conscience will be clear." Their response was the typical yeah but he "can't" win.

It amazes me how blind people choose to be.



P.S. Thanks to everyone for commenting on the original topic. Lots of good points to consider and I am just kinda soaking it all in.

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Mark wrote:How can I say this nicely Aussie. You are once again getting taken in by liberalisms love of revisionist history. I have heard it so many times from the radical leftists of this country and around the world. Demonize the founders. Demonize Columbus. Tear apart those who have contributed in a positive way to our foundations that were based on a love for freedom and liberty. Liberalisms goal is to re-write history so as to justify the failed philosophies of socialism and communism. Don't let them influence you as they apparently are. Reject their revisionsit clap trap and realize their goals are to mislead you.

For your enlightenment I will post an article by a good friend Daniel Petersen of BYU who reviewed a book written by Arnold Garr about Columbus. He was by no means a perfect man but He was not who many of the revisionists suggest like you Aussie some wicked man with little or no redeeming qualities. Far from it in fact. He was ordained a High Priest after his baptism in the St. George temple. I would be careful what you say about him in ignorance. You may regret it once you pass thru the veil Bro.


Christ-Bearer
Review of Christopher Columbus: A Latter-day Saint Perspective by Arnold K. Garr
Reviewed By: Daniel C. Peterson
Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute, 1996. Pp. 104–11

The views expressed in this article are the views of the author and do not represent the position of the Maxwell Institute, Brigham Young University, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.




Christopher Columbus: A Latter-day Saint Perspective
Arnold K. Garr

Foreword by DeLamar Jensen. Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1992. xv +103 pp., with index. $8.95.
Reviewed by Daniel C. Peterson

Christ-Bearer

And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land. (1 Nephi 13:12)

Some months ago, while my family and I sat around the dinner table, the name of Christopher Columbus came up. Instantly, my thirteen-year-old son volunteered the judgment that Columbus wasn't really much of a hero, that he was, in fact, the villain behind the extermination of millions of native Americans and the indirect cause of the pollution of the air, water, and soil of the New World.

I can only assume that my son had absorbed this ideological-tripe-masquerading-as-history at our local junior high school, or else, perhaps, during the Columbus Quincentennial of 1992 at his elementary school. Unfortunately, such disinformation is common nowadays, though I confess I had not previously thought it such a problem in the public schools of Utah.

I immediately recommended Arnold Garr's book, Christopher Columbus: A Latter-day Saint Perspective, to my son. While Columbus's life was not entirely saintly, and while aspects of his legacy certainly call for reflection and even regret, on balance he is a remarkable historical figure whose persistence, courage, skillfulness, and spiritual sensitivity are fully deserving of admiration.

Latter-day Saints, of course, have special reason for paying attention to the career of the great "Admiral of the Ocean Sea." Since the publication of the Book of Mormon in 1830, it has been virtually universally recognized that 1 Nephi 13:12, quoted as the epigram to this review, refers to Columbus, who thus emerges from the very pages of scripture itself as an important, foreordained actor in the divine plan.

Skeptical readers of the Book of Mormon, to the extent that they have noticed the passage at all, have dismissed it as a cheap and easy instance of prophecy ex eventu, written by Joseph Smith (or Sidney Rigdon, or Ethan Smith, or Solomon Spaulding, or whomever) long after Columbus's career, but postdated, as it were, in order to create a seemingly impressive and self-validating prediction by an ancient prophetic writer. At the very most, some have said, the "prophecy" of Columbus hardly constitutes evidence for the antiquity or inspiration of the Book of Mormon.

On a surface level, such critics are right. It would have taken little talent in the late 1820s for someone to prophesy the discovery of America nearly three and a half centuries earlier. But the description of Columbus provided by 1 Nephi 13:12 remains, in my view, a remarkable demonstration of the revelatory accuracy of the Book of Mormon, and Professor Garr's book clearly sets out the reasons.

It is only with the growth of Columbus scholarship in recent years, and particularly with the translation and publication of Columbus's Libro de las profecías in 1991, that English-speaking readers have been fully able to see how remarkably Columbus's own self-understanding parallels the portrait of him given by the Book of Mormon. Professor Garr's Christopher Columbus: A Latter-day Saint Perspective uses the resources provided by modern scholarship to provide a well-informed and genuinely Mormon view of the great explorer.

Professor Garr, who teaches in the Department of Church History and Doctrine at Brigham Young University, sets out quite explicitly (see p. xiii) to emphasize seven themes relating to Columbus: (1) His discovery of the New World for Europe fulfilled Book of Mormon prophecy. (2) He served as a forerunner to the Restoration. (3) The primary motivation for his exploration was not financial gain, but the spread of Christianity. (4) He was guided by the Spirit of God, most especially on his first voyage to the Americas. (5) He himself believed that he was guided by the Spirit. (6) He regarded many of his achievements as a fulfillment of biblical and other prophecy. (7) Many modern prophets and apostles have held Columbus in great respect. In the course of his discussion, the author sets out a clear summary of Columbus's life and career.1 In this review, I shall highlight a few of the points I found most interesting.

The admiral's son Ferdinand was convinced, as, apparently, was the explorer himself, that the name Christopher Columbus (Italian Cristoforo Colombo) carried significant and divine meaning (see the discussion on pp. 8-10). Columbus means "dove," and Ferdinand was not hesitant to link it with the dove that symbolized the Holy Ghost at the Savior's baptism by John. Even more remarkably, perhaps, Christopher signifies "Christ-bearer," a perfectly appropriate title for the role that Columbus saw himself as playing, and that history did, in fact, assign to him as he opened up the New World for Christian evangelization.2 The great priest and historian Bartolomé de Las Casas (cited on p. 13) said of Columbus that "He was extraordinarily zealous for the divine service; he desired and was eager for the conversion of [the Indians], and that in every region the faith of Jesus Christ be planted and enhanced."3 Indeed, based on his feeling that he was living in the last days, Columbus felt a considerable sense of urgency about taking the gospel to all nations, kindreds, tongues, and peoples before the end of the world (p. 31). Writing to Amerigo Vespucci, the Italian explorer for whom (rather unjustly) the Americas would eventually be named, Columbus himself remarked,

I feel persuaded, by the many and wonderful manifestations of Divine Providence in my especial favour, that I am the chosen instrument of God in bringing to pass a great event—no less than the conversion of millions who are now existing in the darkness of Paganism. (cited on pp. 30, 82)

It is difficult, indeed, to argue with Columbus's perception of "many and wonderful manifestations of Divine Providence in [his] especial favour." Students of his first transoceanic voyage, in particular, have been struck by the fact that Columbus made not a single wrong navigational move during the entire journey (p. 39). For instance, despite the fact that the Azores were the westernmost Atlantic islands known in Columbus's day, and, consequently, the logical point of departure for a westward voyage, Columbus opted to launch his expedition rather from the Canary Islands, off the coast of Africa and considerably to the southeast. In doing so, he caught the tradewinds that blow from the northeast to the southwest and he avoided the headwinds that blow from west to east in the area of the Azores. Indeed, five centuries of sailing have proven Columbus's route to be the best possible course for a voyage from southern Europe to North America (p. 41). Miraculous sea changes and a pair of fateful (and, in at least one case, rationally inexplicable) course corrections (discussed on pp. 43-44) also seem to bear the mark of divine intervention on Columbus's behalf.4 Finally, returning from that important initial voyage, and on the basis of (obviously) no prior transatlantic sailing experience, either his own or anybody else's, Columbus discovered the optimal return route to southern Europe, this time via the Azores (p. 50).5

Referring to his first crossing of the Atlantic, Columbus declared that, "With a hand that could be felt, the Lord opened my mind to the fact that it would be possible to sail from here to the Indies, and he opened my will to desire to accomplish the project. . . . This was the fire that burned within me. . . . Who can doubt that this fire was not merely mine, but also of the Holy Spirit?" (cited on pp. 3, 19, 39, 41, 81). "Our Lord," he said in 1286, "made me the messenger of the new heaven and the new earth, . . . and he showed me the place where to find it" (cited on pp. 52, 83).

Columbus was a serious and close student of the Bible. Latter-day Saints will be interested to learn (on pp. 31, 65) that John 10:16, a verse with which they too are more than a little familiar, was one of Columbus's favorite passages of scripture: "And other sheep I have that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold and one shepherd" (as cited on p. 31). This verse provided significant support for his image of himself as a bearer of the gospel to the New World. And, though he was unacquainted with the writings of Nephi, Columbus was convinced that his role had been predicted by ancient prophets:

The Lord purposed that there should be something clearly miraculous in this matter of the voyage to the Indies. . . . I spent seven years here in your royal court discussing this subject with the leading persons in all learned arts, and their conclusion was that it was vain. That was the end, and they gave it up. But afterwards it all turned out just as our redeemer Jesus Christ had said, and as he had spoken earlier by the mouth of his holy prophets. (cited on pp. 29, 65, 82)

"I pointed out that for the execution of the journey to the Indies I was not aided by intelligence, by mathematics or by maps. It was simply the fulfillment of what Isaiah had prophesied" (cited on pp. 63, 65, 82).

As mentioned earlier, the quite recent publication of Columbus's Book of Prophecies in English translation now permits us a window into his soul. And what we see therein cannot fail to remind Latter-day Saint readers of the Book of Mormon. Columbus was fascinated by such themes as the recovery of the Holy Land and the rebuilding, there, of the ancient Jewish temple (p. 64). One of his favorite scriptures, in this regard, was Isaiah 2:2, which Latter-day Saints will surely recognize: "And in the last days the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be prepared on the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills: and all nations shall flow unto it" (as cited on p. 64). He was also, as mentioned, totally committed to the notion that the gospel had to be preached to the ends of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof brought to Christ, before the end of the world (pp. 64-65). For much of this, just as readers of the Book of Mormon might have guessed, Columbus's favorite author was the prophet Isaiah. Indeed, it was in that prophet's book that Columbus thought he could see himself and his voyages divinely foretold. Among the passages that caught his attention were Isaiah 42:1-4: "Behold my servant: I will uphold him. My elect: My soul [de]lighteth in him. I have given my spirit upon him. . . . and the islands shall wait for his law" (as cited on p. 66), and Isaiah 55:5.

For all of its (justifiable) enthusiasm for the great explorer, Professor Garr's book is not blind to Columbus's faults. During his second voyage to the New World, for instance, Columbus, who was under intense pressure to justify the large amounts of money that had gone to support his expeditions—and who was unable to provide gold in the unrealistic amounts that his backers expected—authorized the drafting of native Americans for forced labor and slave sales.6 "This," says Professor Garr, "was one of the worst decisions Columbus made in his entire life" (p. 59). But it was also a pivotal turning point in his career. The author, who writes quite openly as a faithful Latter-day Saint, and not merely as a purportedly value-neutral historian, notes that,

There is very little evidence in the following few years that [Columbus] received the same kind of divine guidance and inspiration that he had been so blessed with earlier in his life. During the years he served as governor he appeared to be walking by his own light and stumbled along the way. He made several unfortunate decisions and almost everything seemed to go wrong for him. Modern-day revelation teaches that "the heavens withdraw themselves" when men "exercise unrighteous dominion" over others (D&C 121:37, 39). (p. 60)

In fact, Columbus returned from his third voyage to the New World not only unsuccessful, but humiliated, under arrest, and in shackles (pp. 61-63). Nevertheless, it would appear that the Lord had not abandoned him utterly. During a very difficult and distressing period on his fourth and last voyage to the Americas, Columbus lay down aboard his ship, the Capitana, off the coast of Panama.

I fell asleep, and heard a compassionate voice, saying, "O fool, and slow to believe and serve thy God, the God of every man! What more did He do for Moses or for David His servant than for thee? From thy birth He hath ever held thee in special charge. When He saw thee at man's estate, marvelously did He cause thy name to resound over the earth. The Indies, so rich a portion of the world, He gave thee for thine own, and thou hast divided them as it pleased thee. Of those barriers of the Ocean Sea, which were closed with such mighty chains, He hath given thee the keys. Thou was [sic] obeyed in so many lands, and thou has [sic] won noble fame from Christendom. What more did He do for the people of Israel, when He carried them out of Egypt; or for David, whom from a shepherd He raised to be king over Judea? Turn thou to Him and acknowledge thy faults; His mercy is infinite;" . . . I heard all this as in a swoon, but I had no answer to give in definite words;
so true, only to weep for my transgression. (cited on p. 83; cf. p. 68)

When, on 20 May 1506, Columbus breathed his last in Valladolid, Spain, his final words were in manus tuas, Domine, commendo spiritum meum ("into thy hands, O Lord, I commend my spirit") (p. 69). And it seems that his deathbed prayer was heard. On 21 August 1877, under inspiration, President Wilford Woodruff received vicarious baptism for Columbus in the St. George Temple. Three days later, Columbus was vicariously endowed and ordained a high priest in the same temple.

Latter-day Saints, of all people, should not join in the campaign, currently fashionable in some quarters, to denigrate the illustrious Genoese admiral and explorer. The historical record joins with the Book of Mormon to testify that Christopher Columbus, despite his faults, was a chosen and anointed instrument in the hands of God to bring about the divine purpose for the New World. Arnold K. Garr's Christopher Columbus: A Latter-day Saint Perspective sets out the evidence for this proposition clearly and concisely. It is a credit both to the author and to the Religious Studies Center, which published it.

Notes:
1 Along the way, he aims well-deserved criticism at the persistent myth that the scholars of Columbus's time thought the earth was flat (p. 28) and tells of the astonishing reception that the Indians gave to Columbus and his white, bearded shipmates, a reception perhaps to be connected with legends of Christ's appearance in ancient America (pp. 47-48).

2 I am inclined to agree with Professor Garr (on p. 56) that Columbus also played an important part in the fulfillment of 1 Nephi 13:38.

3 In keeping with his deep beliefs, Columbus tended to give religious names—such as San Salvador ("Holy Savior"), La Navidad ("Christmas"), and Trinidad ("Trinity")—to the places he came across (see pp. 46, 61).

4 Professor Garr calls attention (on p. 3) to Orson Hyde's intriguing notion that it was Moroni, acting in a stewardship role for the Americas, who guided and gave impressions to Columbus; see JD 6:368.

5 As we shall see below, the author feels that Columbus was "wrought upon" by the Spirit of God on other occasions besides his first voyage to the Americas. One incident to which he alludes is Columbus's remarkable escape from a shipwreck relatively early in his seafaring career (see p. 20).

6 Although it is only a weak defense, we should note—against contemporary Columbus-despisers—that the admiral was merely going along with the prevailing practices of his day.



Mark,

I think Aussie is probably trying to make the point that we should not "deify" the founding fathers and others involved in bringing this country to pass. If he is not making that point, then I am. Having grown up in Utah, many take things like 1 Nephi 13 and tend to think that Columbus, the founding fathers, and the like were next to God in their spirituality. The founding fathers fulfilled the purposes that the Lord intended them to do. They were blessed with tremendous intelligence and understanding, as well as a strong sense of liberty and a strong belief in God. Many of them were not necessarily moral men, even by the days standards of morality. There were vices and all manner of problems in their lives. But again, that diminishes nothing in my mind for the way they were able to fulfill their earthly missions and the Lord purposes while on this earth. Just I have noticed that people tend to try to say or think that they were somehow great men in all aspects of life. The gospel of course was not around to establish standards of conduct. One can only speculate that these people would even fully embrace the gospel if it was around at that time. But that is all moot because they have embraced it now. :)

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Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:37 am

I see your point Shawn but frankly I don't think that was Aussies point at all. He referred to Columbus as a hideous human being with virturally no redeeeming qualities. That is far from deifying him or the founders of whom Aussie also likes to trash when he can. I believe it is attacking them so as to justify an agenda. I think that agenda from most of the revisionists around is misleading and deceptive. I hate to see members of the church get caught up in this deception and spread it around like it is gospel. That is why I called Aussie on it. The Lord used these men to fulfill his purposes. Attacking and demeaning them as hideous human beings is just plain wrong and to me is akin to bearing false witness against honorable men.

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Darren
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Christopher Columbus was a Christian

Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:29 pm

Spain
Through a long process Christian kingdoms in the north gradually rolled back Muslim rule, which was finally extinguished in 1492.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain


While Columbus had always given the conversion of non-believers as one reason for his explorations. He claimed to hear divine voices, lobbied for a new crusade to capture Jerusalem, often wore Franciscan habit, and described his explorations to the "paradise" as part of God's plan which would soon result in the Last Judgment and the end of the world.

While trying to find a sea route to India, hence the indigenous inhabitants being called "Indians"

When he died he was still convinced that his journeys had been along the east coast of Asia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus


To better understand the story of Christopher Columbus it is important to understand the true history of Europe.

In the 7th century AD the Exilarch in Constantinople, had found this idiot Muhammad, and wrote for him an orthodox text, the Koran, for him to establish the Muslim Religion and to organize the eastern peoples to oppose Christianity.

For 750 years there was a Christian-Muslim war in Europe.

The Muslim Religion is an apostate religion written and developed in the 7th century by the Exilarch and his Pharisees to oppose and hopefully destroy Christanity.

What Christopher Columbus was trying to do was to revive the crusades, and enthrone the Christian Faith upon the land, by finding a better way to attack the heart of the Muslim world.

Christopher Columbus was a 15th century knights templar style crusader.

The problem is that after Christopher Columbus’ death they eventually discovered that he had not discovered the eastern outposts of the Muslim world as he thought that he had.

But instead of apologizing for the blunder that they were not justified in warring with these non-Muslims. Greed set in and the sin of the fathers was perpetuated through the children.

The King of the Muslim’s was called the Caliph.

When they had walked across Mexico and reached the west cost, still trying to find a route to the heart of the Muslim world, they discovered that there was still another land not far off Mexico’s west coast. We know it today as the California Peninsula.

It was said that they had finally found the land of the Caliph of the Muslims, they called it Calif-ornia. The Spanish-Mexicans of today don't have any claim to California as their ancestors believed it belonged to the Calif of the Muslims. :lol:

Christopher Columbus is venerated for his desire to fight for Christianity. But the Spanish are in mental waste for propagating the Greek/Roman/Orthodox system of control upon the American Natives.

The Puritans of New England would be the next group after Christopher Columbus’ party to finally bring the purity of Christianity to the natives.

Work Together by the Law,
Darren

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Re: Christopher Columbus was a Christian

Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:58 pm

I find few evil men in history. I find few good men. Moses slaughtered women and children that were his unarmed CAPTIVES.

Joshua slaughtered whole cities... kids, women, dogs, hamsters (it could happen).

If Columbus was evil he was no more evil than Moses. How many people have to be killed because of what you did in order to be evil?

Who was good that ever conquered a country? Was William the Conquerer a good guy because he freed the English from their Saxon masters?

Because of Columbus the Aztecs were slaughtered. Is that a good or bad thing? Who would have killed more? The Aztecs and Maya or the Whites?

Look at Rome. Were they good? Why? Why not?

How about Franklin? He slept his way to treaties with France to help us Kill the English in VIOLATION of the 12th Article of Faith (of course).

Aussie is in an English Speaking Country that still looks at itself as proud of its English heritage and is also a Socialist Nation that has no gun rights. The English do not like armed serfs and never have. Too much of a risk to their masters.

Was Columbus more evil than...

________________________________________?
Place English King here

________________________________________?
Place Pope here.

________________________________________?
Place Any Rothschild here.

________________________________________?
Place Etc. here.

Columbus was a good enough man to be in heaven next to Ben Franklin, John Wesley and Thomas Jefferson (a slave owner).

I'll wager FDR and LBJ don't make it.

And anyway Aussie's view of the world is all wrong. Always looking up to others makes your neck hurt.

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lundbaek
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Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:55 am

FDR's work was done for him by somebody.

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buffalo_girl
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Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:45 pm

What a big fat mess, your own founders didn't even believe their own constitution.

Which bears witness to the fact that it had to have been divinely inspired!

Their response was the typical yeah but he "can't" win.

That one drives me nuts, too. When I hear, "He's unelectable", I sweetly reply, "Only if you don't vote for him."

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jbalm
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Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:53 am

Off topic:

For your enlightenment I will post an article by a good friend Daniel Petersen of BYU


How good of friends are you with DCP? I'm a great admirer of his work and think he would carry on some really cool conversations.

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Mark
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Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:39 am

I was one of his counselors in a bishopric at a student ward jbalm. He is a great guy with a wonderful sense of humor. He is also a great defender of the faith and has written numerous articles for FAIR and the Maxwell Institute etc. One smart cookie.

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jbalm
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Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:41 am

Kewl.

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ChelC
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Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:09 pm

Jbalm... you've got me all confused. I thought I had you pegged for between 45-50 years old. I always try to guess what people are like based on their responses.

Then you went and spelled cool like kewl, and gosh if I don't think you're 30 all over again! Of course, if you have teenage kids, the kewl could have rubbed off on you, and you're just a middle aged dad, like I thought.

Hmmm...

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jbalm
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Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:16 pm

39 y.o. Kids are 16 and 14.

I'm a sinner. I enjoy South Park. (Eric Cartman says "kewl.")

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Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:14 pm

My first thought was that my guess was close... my second thought was, wait! I'm less than a decade behind, so if he's middle aged what am I? AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

Actually I look forward to the next few decades - it's the few after those I'm not sure about.

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Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:08 am

lundbaek wrote:FDR's work was done for him by somebody.


So was Hitler's

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Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:09 am

buffalo_girl wrote:
What a big fat mess, your own founders didn't even believe their own constitution.

Which bears witness to the fact that it had to have been divinely inspired!

Their response was the typical yeah but he "can't" win.

That one drives me nuts, too. When I hear, "He's unelectable", I sweetly reply, "Only if you don't vote for him."


It’s tough for a republican to cross-over.
Monday, February 11th 2008 — Mark Andrews

A year ago, a friend (republican) took exception with me for my unwillingness to join forces with republicans and support one of the republicans seeking the party nomination for president. At the time my response was that I couldn’t make a choice yet, since my own political party had not yet held its own convention, and therefore I was unable to know yet whom I thought would be most worthy of my vote. My friend’s unhappiness revolved around the idea that us ‘independents waste your votes and then steal them from the republicans’ and that ‘you (independents) are the ones to blame when the democrats win’ and ‘besides, your guy can’t win.’

I told him that I could never vote for the lesser of two evils, since that would just be voting for … well, you know what. My vote is precious and I can spend it only once – I will therefore spend it well, regardless of whether I am voting for a sure winner or a sure loser.

Now, a year later, after all the donations, time spent and caucus settled, his republican has abruptly quit the nomination race and his vote turns out to be wasted. He now is also disgusted that john mcCAIN seems to be the best that the supposedly ‘conservative’ republicans can come up with. I agree with this conclusion.

He says he wants to know when our party has chosen its best candidate so he can vote with us. My friend now says he never thought that he could vote for something other than the lesser of two evils. He now understands what a wasted vote is … and would be. I welcome his decision to cross over and join with me, and realize it is a difficult thing for him to do. He therefore has earned even deeper respect from me.

You republicans out there: I have an invitation for you. I believe that many of you are driven by principles that you have long believed you were holding close to your hearts. Those principles have now been long betrayed by your party (I was once a member of your party). The principles of liberty, personal freedom and responsibility (self-reliance) still live … they live in the Independent American Party, where the Constitution is still honored. Join with us and learn where you may cast a vote that is truly not wasted nor spent on imposters.

**********

How pathetic that a national party that thinks itself to be conservative has overwhelmingly decided that a thing like a mcCAIN is representative of itself. And, it appears, in truth … a mcCAIN actually is representative of that party.

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The reader may wonder about my grammar skills due to the abnormal use of capitalization in the preceding text. Do not wonder.

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CHH
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:27 pm
Location: Nevada

Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:12 am

jbalm wrote:39 y.o. Kids are 16 and 14.

I'm a sinner. I enjoy South Park. (Eric Cartman says "kewl.")


Anyone that does not watch South Park misses out on the Greatest politic commentary of our day!

"How do you kill that which has no life." "OH ON They killed Kenny!"

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