The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Discussion of principles relating to God's Law, Agency, Freedom, Liberty, the US constitution, and the Proper Role of Government.
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BrianM
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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby BrianM » Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:15 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
BrianM wrote:In D&C 101 (77-80) the Lord stated the "constitution ... should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles.."
Would you then agree that the amendment that explicitly forbade slavery was in harmony with that purpose..?
Yes, agreed.
LoveIsTruth wrote:
BrianM wrote:The flaw is in men - they don't actually follow the Constitution or the proper role of government.
Would you agree that better laws help people to be better, and that bad laws encourage them to be bad?
I think the way I would word it is that man's laws should mirror God's laws. The laws aren't even necessarily for the good people (who are already following God's law) but allows them a way to be protected from the bad people. Also, those laws should be made at the proper level of government (local > state > federal).
LoveIsTruth wrote:
BrianM wrote:Joseph Smith said it's only flaw is basically that it wasn't broad enough in enforcing its provisions in regards to those who neglect it.
Still a flaw though, isn't it? And if a flaw then improvement is possible.
Have we not seen the need for that in the last 200 years?
If you want to say it's "still a flaw" I don't care to argue that point back and forth. It's a flaw that is only a flaw because men are flawed. Yes, we've seen a lot of corruption and ignoring of the Constitution over the years.

I'm going to address the rest by skipping down to...
LoveIsTruth wrote:More or less than what? Than the law supporting "principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges." It does not mean the Constitution is perfect and cannot or should not be improved. Indeed it has been improved by the 13th amendment: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." This is in perfect accord with the word of the Lord "it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another." (D&C 101:79)
Yes, "more or less than this" - this meaning: "supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges".

Yes, amendments can be beneficial/good (such as the 13th) but most things are best left for each state to decide.
LoveIsTruth wrote: ..This is why D&C 134 is only a declaration of belief, instead of a declaration of finalized and immutable doctrine.
D&C 134 was written by Oliver Cowdery and approved by the Saints for inclusion in the D&C while Joseph was away (FYI).
All my opinions are tentative pending further data...

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:58 pm

BrianM wrote:If you want to say it's "still a flaw" I don't care to argue that point back and forth. It's a flaw that is only a flaw because men are flawed.
Men are flawed, and the Constitution was written for flawed men. That was its purpose. It would have fulfilled its purpose better if Joseph Smith's suggestion for improving it was put in place.
BrianM wrote:Yes, amendments can be beneficial/good (such as the 13th) but most things are best left for each state to decide.
For sure. But it is the Federal government that does the most plunder, and it should be restricted by an amendment to the Constitution to explicitly forbid all public taxation and regulation (read violation) of private property. Because violation of private property is the definition of evil. And this evil (violation of private property via public taxation of private property) is the very life blood of the monster that empowers all of the vices of the government, and this key evil was not explicitly forbidden in the original Constitution, yet it must be, if Liberty and the country is to survive.

The only things a public government has a right to regulate and tax are the things it owns, i.e. public property, and nothing else.
BrianM wrote:
LoveIsTruth wrote:..This is why D&C 134 is only a declaration of belief, instead of a declaration of finalized and immutable doctrine.
D&C 134 was written by Oliver Cowdery and approved by the Saints for inclusion in the D&C while Joseph was away (FYI).
I am sure it would not have made into D&C without Joseph's approval.

Thanks for your comments.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby BrianM » Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:41 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:.. But it is the Federal government that does the most plunder, and it should be restricted by an amendment to the Constitution to explicitly forbid all public taxation and regulation (read violation) of private property. Because violation of private property is the definition of evil. And this evil (violation of private property via public taxation of private property) is the very life blood of the monster that empowers all of the vices of the government, and this key evil was not explicitly forbidden in the original Constitution, yet it must be, if Liberty and the country is to survive...
I'm not opposed to trying to eliminate government plunder and violations of the constitution and our rights -- however I think it might be too late. Perhaps it can be implemented after the cleansing of America.
LoveIsTruth wrote:
BrianM wrote:
LoveIsTruth wrote:..This is why D&C 134 is only a declaration of belief, instead of a declaration of finalized and immutable doctrine.
D&C 134 was written by Oliver Cowdery and approved by the Saints for inclusion in the D&C while Joseph was away (FYI).
I am sure it would not have made into D&C without Joseph's approval.
Actually, the story is that Joseph would not have put it in the D&C but allowed it to be so because the people had voted for it (this was told by Joseph F. Smith who was teaching about the law of common consent - this being an example of that law in action).
All my opinions are tentative pending further data...

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:59 pm

BrianM wrote:I'm not opposed to trying to eliminate government plunder and violations of the constitution and our rights -- however I think it might be too late. Perhaps it can be implemented after the cleansing of America.
You are exactly right. But we still should try. It is a chance to proclaim the truth.
BrianM wrote:Actually, the story is that Joseph would not have put it in the D&C but allowed it to be so because the people had voted for it (this was told by Joseph F. Smith who was teaching about the law of common consent - this being an example of that law in action).
Interesting. I did not know that. Thanks for the info. But it still proves the point that non of them understood the principles well enough to state them in absolute terms.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby freedomforall » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:48 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
freedomforall wrote:If people lived their lives as God wants them to there would be no need for improving the Constitution. Satan is the guy who wants to force people to obey. This is not God's way. Forced obedience is what Nazi Germany practiced. God already said that he had the Constitution written so slavery would eventually stop...and it did. Likewise, the Israelites were in bondage four around 400 years before Moses came along and freed them.
Righteousness is what is needed in order for every man to have his own property without someone coming along and taking it from them or even attempting to...just like in Nevada. The government has no business running the lives of a free people. It is evil minded people that have made life miserable for the rest until now evil doings are more commonplace. Want a better Constitution? Fix the people. The Constitution was to be for a righteous republic nothing else. God has a place all set up for the wicked, because they didn't see fit to obey his commandments. But even he will not force people into obedience, but he can sure make their life miserable.
I like what John Taylor said when he told us that the Constitutions should be taught to our children, intact, pure and unadulterated. So if, if Joseph had said anything to the contrary, JT didn't agree with it either. No one can change the Constitution and then claim it is intact and unadulterated. I fully believe that if God had wanted it written a different way, he'd had someone do it way before now.
President Benson told us outright that God placed his stamp approval on the Constitution and I stick with him.

President Benson tells us what we must do. For those who say he is full of it do so at their own peril.
God also put a stamp of approval upon the Bible. It didn't mean the Book of Mormon should not have come forth.
  • "A [Constitution]! A [Constitution]! We have got a [Constitution], and there cannot be any more [Constitution].
    But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, ... murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? ... And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; ... Wherefore, because that ye have [the Constitution] ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written." (2 Nephi 29: 3-10) "For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have." (2 Nephi 28:30).
Unless we accept more of God's words into the Constitution, it will be taken away from us.
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." (Matthew 11:15)

:)
Since you do acknowledge that God did put his stamp of approval on the Constitution, then you also should know that it was written exactly the way he wanted it or he wouldn't have put his stamp of approval on it. Only man would come up with such an idea of changing it to read something else.

2 Nephi 9:28
28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

1 Corinthians 3:18,19
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Does any one man know more, understand more or think at a higher level than God? See: 2 Nephi 9:28
A very simple "yes" or "no" will suffice. Yes or no!
REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION.

Rumors are like tumors, they're bred and spread.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:57 pm

The stumbeling block of the gentiles is that they put down the miracles of God. And teach there own wisdoms and learnings. 2 nephi 26:20.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:40 pm

freedomforall wrote:Since you do acknowledge that God did put his stamp of approval on the Constitution, then you also should know that it was written exactly the way he wanted it or he wouldn't have put his stamp of approval on it. Only man would come up with such an idea of changing it to read something else.
God also put a stamp of approval on the amendment process, that he put into the Constitution. He also put his stamp of approval on the 13th amendment, which squares perfectly with his word. He also put his stamp of approval upon the principles I propose to be added to the Constitution. Why do I say so? Because they are his principles, and square perfectly with his words in the scriptures.
freedomforall wrote:Does any one man know more, understand more or think at a higher level than God? See: 2 Nephi 9:28
A very simple "yes" or "no" will suffice. Yes or no!
No. And you should respect the wisdom of Him who made the Constitution amendable, and revealed more light and knowledge to be added to it, which if you reject, even that which you have received will be taken away from you, according to his own words.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:55 pm

Ezra wrote:The stumbeling block of the gentiles is that they put down the miracles of God. And teach there own wisdoms and learnings. 2 nephi 26:20.
The stumbling block of many LDS is that they don't wish to think, nor believe God and his prophets when they bring additional light to them.
  • "I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions."
    — Joseph Smith, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, p. 520.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby freedomforall » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:15 am

Ezra wrote:The stumbeling block of the gentiles is that they put down the miracles of God. And teach there own wisdoms and learnings. 2 nephi 26:20.
As in..."Dear God, I come before you to tell you that you made some mistakes as to how the Constitutions was penned. I want those errors rectified. Instead of having people govern themselves I want new laws that will force people to do right. Instead of people repenting and having increased charity, I want them to be coerced into submission for the good of everyone."
Then we can toss out the scriptures.
REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby freedomforall » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:22 am

LoveIsTruth wrote:
freedomforall wrote:Since you do acknowledge that God did put his stamp of approval on the Constitution, then you also should know that it was written exactly the way he wanted it or he wouldn't have put his stamp of approval on it. Only man would come up with such an idea of changing it to read something else.
God also put a stamp of approval on the amendment process, that he put into the Constitution. He also put his stamp of approval on the 13th amendment, which squares perfectly with his word. He also put his stamp of approval upon the principles I propose to be added to the Constitution. Why do I say so? Because they are his principles, and square perfectly with his words in the scriptures.
freedomforall wrote:Does any one man know more, understand more or think at a higher level than God? See: 2 Nephi 9:28
A very simple "yes" or "no" will suffice. Yes or no!
No. And you should respect the wisdom of Him who made the Constitution amendable, and revealed more light and knowledge to be added to it, which if you reject, even that which you have received will be taken away from you, according to his own words.
Tell us, did you get it straight from God's mouth that the Constitution is amendable, to be changed according to man's whims? And where are the sources that even come close to this notion. Man had more to do with the amendments 11 on up. 1-10 are the Bill of Rights.
REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION.

Rumors are like tumors, they're bred and spread.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby freedomforall » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:33 am

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:The stumbeling block of the gentiles is that they put down the miracles of God. And teach there own wisdoms and learnings. 2 nephi 26:20.
The stumbling block of many LDS is that they don't wish to think, nor believe God and his prophets when they bring additional light to them.
  • "I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions."
    — Joseph Smith, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, p. 520.
And this includes changing the Constitution according to man's whims and not trusting that God knows what he is doing. So you answered your own goal with evidence that you presume to tell God what to do. It is not the role of the church leadership to change anything in the Constitution unless God commands it. It is to be left intact, pure and unadulterated. I didn't miss the memo, but some members of the church have. The prophets have spoken emphatically about this. If you want perfection, wait till he whose right it is to reign and carry the government on his shoulder...even Jesus Christ arrives.
But just take into account that those living with him will be much more perfect and righteous than the carnal man is. They will be the best of the best and will adhere to what Christ says, not try to change his intents and purposes.
REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION.

Rumors are like tumors, they're bred and spread.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:57 am

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:The stumbeling block of the gentiles is that they put down the miracles of God. And teach there own wisdoms and learnings. 2 nephi 26:20.
The stumbling block of many LDS is that they don't wish to think, nor believe God and his prophets when they bring additional light to them.
  • "I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions."
    — Joseph Smith, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, p. 520.

The tradition is to change it. Not keep it in tact. I don't know why you keep doing that. Providing the ammo for the gun pointed at you.

And the stumbeling block is exactly what God says it is. Not what "you" say it is.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:52 am

freedomforall wrote:As in..."Dear God, I come before you to tell you that you made some mistakes as to how the Constitutions was penned.
He didn't; the imperfections in it are from the men who wrote it, not from God. And you have two prophets, at least, telling you that it is not perfect. I believe the prophets. On this point you apparently don't.
freedomforall wrote:I want those errors rectified.
Indeed. God wants them rectified too, as soon as he can get through the stubbornness of certain men who do not listen to him nor his prophets.
freedomforall wrote:Instead of having people govern themselves I want new laws that will force people to do right.
Not really. I wish to help people to govern themselves by teaching them the correct principle that government has no right to plunder them. I simply want to forbid plunder carried out by the government. Justice demands it, and so does God.

And without correct principles, how are people supposed to govern themselves?
freedomforall wrote:Instead of people repenting and having increased charity, I want them to be coerced into submission for the good of everyone."
Not instead but in addition to. And not into submission, but into non-aggression. Big difference. Learn it. It is called Justice.
The only coercion I call for is that which neutralizes aggressive violence of the government. And that is just.
freedomforall wrote:Then we can toss out the scriptures.
"Thou shall not steal" is scripture. How am I tossing it by applying it to the government in the Constitution whose purpose, according to God, is to restrict the government and to protect the people?

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:03 am

freedomforall wrote:Tell us, did you get it straight from God's mouth that the Constitution is amendable,
Yes. This fact is written into the Constitution itself.
freedomforall wrote:to be changed according to man's whims?
Not according to whims, but according to scripture: "Thou shall not steal" applied to the government.
freedomforall wrote:And where are the sources that even come close to this notion.
The Constitution itself, the Bible, and the Book of Mormon, as well as Joseph Smith.
freedomforall wrote:Man had more to do with the amendments 11 on up. 1-10 are the Bill of Rights.
Amendment 13 is in perfect harmony with the word of God.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:07 am

Ezra wrote:The tradition is to change it. Not keep it in tact.
The tradition of LDS is NOT to change it. The prophet spoke of the traditions held by the members.
Ezra wrote:And the stumbeling block is exactly what God says it is. Not what "you" say it is.
The quote was from Joseph Smith. So he said it.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:09 am

How are we to govern ourselfs??

By living correctly, no government involvment is needed for that lov.

Government is not God. Government acting Like God as it has been "is" the problem not the solution.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:19 am

Ezra wrote:How are we to govern ourselfs??
By living correctly, no government involvment is needed for that lov.
Exactly. This is why I am proposing to limit government involvement in your life, because it is involved in robbing you every day.
So you are right.
Ezra wrote:Government is not God. Government acting Like God as it has been "is" the problem not the solution.
Precisely. That is why I seek to limit it, from robbing you. We agree again!

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:59 am

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:The tradition is to change it. Not keep it in tact.
The tradition of LDS is NOT to change it. The prophet spoke of the traditions held by the members.
Ezra wrote:And the stumbeling block is exactly what God says it is. Not what "you" say it is.
The quote was from Joseph Smith. So he said it.
The quote from joseph is not about the stumbeling block.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:01 am

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:How are we to govern ourselfs??
By living correctly, no government involvment is needed for that lov.
Exactly. This is why I am proposing to limit government involvement in your life, because it is involved in robbing you every day.
So you are right.
Ezra wrote:Government is not God. Government acting Like God as it has been "is" the problem not the solution.
Precisely. That is why I seek to limit it, from robbing you. We agree again!
Constitution is already writen to limit the government. the governement and people have not abided by it. That's the problem. Not the constitution

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:07 am

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:The tradition is to change it. Not keep it in tact.
The tradition of LDS is NOT to change it. The prophet spoke of the traditions held by the members.
Ezra wrote:And the stumbeling block is exactly what God says it is. Not what "you" say it is.
The quote was from Joseph Smith. So he said it.
And the tradition is not to keep it as it was in the lds religion. It's been the same as you to change it.

Read D&c 121 34-40.
With in mind that unrightious dominion really only practiced in our involvment in government. As we have very little opportunitys to do so in church or home life. But through out votes we can enslave the masses to the bondage of taxation and laws.
Almost all members of the church fall into that trap.
Are you leading that charge lov?

If you are amen to your pristhood athority. And you are not numbered as gods people. Verse 38.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:18 am

Ezra wrote:The quote from joseph is not about the stumbeling block.
Flying to pieces because you resist new light, sounds like a stumbling block.
Ezra wrote:Constitution is already writen to limit the government. the governement and people have not abided by it. That's the problem. Not the constitution
It can limit it even better, and make it easier for people to hold officials to account. The need well demonstrated by the last 200 years. (Especially in the light of the fact that the founders did not have a perfect understanding of certain key principles, as demonstrated by the language they used, and by their behavior in office after the Constitution was adopted).
Ezra wrote:But through out votes we can enslave the masses to the bondage of taxation and laws.
Almost all members of the church fall into that trap.
Are you leading that charge lov?
How am I leading the charge for taxation when I seek to abolish it?

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:39 am

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:The quote from joseph is not about the stumbeling block.
Flying to pieces because you resist new light, sounds like a stumbling block.
Ezra wrote:Constitution is already writen to limit the government. the governement and people have not abided by it. That's the problem. Not the constitution
It can limit it even better, and make it easier for people to hold officials to account. The need well demonstrated by the last 200 years. (Especially in the light of the fact that the founders did not have a perfect understanding of certain key principles, as demonstrated by the language they used, and by their behavior in office after the Constitution was adopted).
Ezra wrote:But through out votes we can enslave the masses to the bondage of taxation and laws.
Almost all members of the church fall into that trap.
Are you leading that charge lov?
How am I leading the charge for taxation when I seek to abolish it?
Do you have a problem hyper focusing on things?

I ask cuz you seem to miss the point a lot only looking at one aspect of it.

There is more then just one reason people use unrightious dominion taxation is one of them. Not the only one.
A ? Mark notes a question not a statement.


Flying to pieces??? What? Those quotes are not new light. Have seen them many times and once again are taken out of context.

God is the one who defined the stumbeling block not me. 2 nephi 26:20.

Take that issue up with God. See if he wants you to change that scripture to better suit your faults.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:57 am

Wow! That is not very logical, Ezra. Are you alright?

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:29 am

What is?

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:59 am

LoveIsTruth wrote:
freedomforall wrote:If people lived their lives as God wants them to there would be no need for improving the Constitution. Satan is the guy who wants to force people to obey. This is not God's way. Forced obedience is what Nazi Germany practiced. God already said that he had the Constitution written so slavery would eventually stop...and it did. Likewise, the Israelites were in bondage four around 400 years before Moses came along and freed them.
Righteousness is what is needed in order for every man to have his own property without someone coming along and taking it from them or even attempting to...just like in Nevada. The government has no business running the lives of a free people. It is evil minded people that have made life miserable for the rest until now evil doings are more commonplace. Want a better Constitution? Fix the people. The Constitution was to be for a righteous republic nothing else. God has a place all set up for the wicked, because they didn't see fit to obey his commandments. But even he will not force people into obedience, but he can sure make their life miserable.
I like what John Taylor said when he told us that the Constitutions should be taught to our children, intact, pure and unadulterated. So if, if Joseph had said anything to the contrary, JT didn't agree with it either. No one can change the Constitution and then claim it is intact and unadulterated. I fully believe that if God had wanted it written a different way, he'd had someone do it way before now.
President Benson told us outright that God placed his stamp approval on the Constitution and I stick with him.

President Benson tells us what we must do. For those who say he is full of it do so at their own peril.
God also put a stamp of approval upon the Bible. It didn't mean the Book of Mormon should not have come forth.
  • "A [Constitution]! A [Constitution]! We have got a [Constitution], and there cannot be any more [Constitution].
    But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, ... murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? ... And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; ... Wherefore, because that ye have [the Constitution] ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written." (2 Nephi 29: 3-10) "For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have." (2 Nephi 28:30).
Unless we accept more of God's words into the Constitution, it will be taken away from us.
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." (Matthew 11:15)

:)
God didn't say he would take writen words. He said wisdom or knowledge. America has not listened. The lds have not listened.

the church has ignored the message from our prophets about our role In the freedom battle. And the last prophet to say almost anything on it was ezra Taft benson.

And now the church is almost completly ignorant to the freedom issue.

The lord has taken that wisdom nearly out of the church except for a few who still want more.
I want more.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:25 pm

Ezra wrote: I want more.
As long as it is not written, right?

Ezra
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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:50 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote: I want more.
As long as it is not written, right?
I like scriptures so no I'm good with gods writen words.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby freedomforall » Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:55 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
freedomforall wrote:As in..."Dear God, I come before you to tell you that you made some mistakes as to how the Constitutions was penned.
He didn't; the imperfections in it are from the men who wrote it, not from God. And you have two prophets, at least, telling you that it is not perfect. I believe the prophets. On this point you apparently don't. It was these same two prophets that also said the Constitution was the best document ever written and to keep it intact, pure and unadulterated. Apparently you do not believe this either. And you blatantly ignore what other Prophets have said and use one phrase, out of context by the way, as your premise for change. And you keep insisting that God wants it changed, however, you ignore the answer given right in scripture. SEE: D&C 58:22 And that is to be subject to the powers that be...meaning governments. Go ahead see for yourself, or just stick to you own thinking. Until then we'll continue to have an impasse. Because I believe what the recent prophets have said and the scriptures. Rather simple to understand too.
freedomforall wrote:I want those errors rectified.
Indeed. God wants them rectified too, as soon as he can get through the stubbornness of certain men who do not listen to him nor his prophets. How about the stubbornness of men that want things changed for their own gain without God actually telling them to do it. You are guessing. God telling us to befriend and uphold the Constitution which is the supreme law of the land, and current prophets telling us the same...trumps your assertions any day. Are they liars now? Or do you think they are just plain stupid? Yes, or no.
freedomforall wrote:Instead of having people govern themselves I want new laws that will force people to do right.
Not really. I wish to help people to govern themselves by teaching them the correct principle that government has no right to plunder them. I simply want to forbid plunder carried out by the government. Justice demands it, and so does God.

And without correct principles, how are people supposed to govern themselves? Why do you think he had the bible written? The Book of Mormon? The D&C? The Pearl of Great Price?
Here is your answer:
Proverbs 29:2
2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.

Therefore a righteous government and a righteous people would have no need of social control.

freedomforall wrote:Instead of people repenting and having increased charity, I want them to be coerced into submission for the good of everyone."
Not instead but in addition to. And not into submission, but into non-aggression. Big difference. Learn it. It is called Justice. One man's opinion for certain. The only coercion I call for is that which neutralizes aggressive violence of the government. And that is just. Good luck in your run for POTUS. Maybe it's time to test your theory.
freedomforall wrote:Then we can toss out the scriptures.
"Thou shall not steal" is scripture. How am I tossing it by applying it to the government in the Constitution whose purpose, according to God, is to restrict the government and to protect the people? God does not force people to keep his commandments does he? No. Satan's plan is accomplished by force. Our mandate from God is to be better than the wicked, better than bad government, and better than those around us as an example people can see. You just plain cannot force people to live righteously. And even if you could change the Constitution the Judicial System would still do things their way because they have their own Constitution. This fact and its source has been posted several times.
REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION.

Rumors are like tumors, they're bred and spread.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:38 pm

freedomforall wrote:And that is to be subject to the powers that be...meaning governments.
Amending the Constitution is perfectly constitutional. So it does not violate that.
freedomforall wrote:God telling us to befriend and uphold the Constitution which is the supreme law of the land, and current prophets telling us the same..
There is no conflict between befriending and improving it. Indeed one implies another. And you cannot defile, or adulterate the Constitution by adding more of God's words to it. So there is zero contradiction here.
freedomforall wrote:Therefore a righteous government and a righteous people would have no need of social control.

The Constitution was written for the world as it is, which means not everybody is righteous. Therefore it must contain means to prevent government plundering the people. It is a very simple idea actually, perfectly in harmony with the word of God.
freedomforall wrote:Good luck in your run for POTUS. Time to put you money where your mouth is, isn't it?

I don't need to runt for POTUS to propose just and good amendments to the Constitution.
LoveIsTruth wrote:"Thou shall not steal" is scripture. How am I tossing it by applying it to the government in the Constitution whose purpose, according to God, is to restrict the government and to protect the people?
freedomforall wrote:God does not force people to keep his commandments does he? No. Satan's plan is accomplished by force.

You are confused. God uses force in defence of his property, and commanded his people to do the same. Incorporating a defence against government violence into the Constitution does not violate the agency of the people, but upholds it. Allowing government violence and plunder against the people does actually violate their agency. So you got it in reverse. I am protecting agency (freedom of property) of the people from violence and aggression of the government. That is just, and upholds agency, not destroys it. So you are incorrect.
freedomforall wrote:You just plain cannot force people to live righteously.

No, but you can defend yourself and your family from the wicked as God commands.
freedomforall wrote:And even if you could change the Constitution the Judicial System would still do things their way because they have their own Constitution.

The more plain the Constitution against government plunder, the harder it is to twist, the harder it is to lie to the people, because remember, it is on deception (and resulting acquiescence) of the people that the whole plunder system is built. Expose the lie, and you end the consent of the people, who will realize they are being robbed. Now however, most believe the plunder is somehow justified.

The role of the Constitution is to broadcasts the truth across the sky, so that the deception becomes much harder to pull off or impossible. But with broad taxation clauses as it is, the Constitution does no such thing, and therefore is ineffective in its present form, because it seems to allow public taxation of private property, which is a violation of private property, which is a definition of evil and injustice itself.

The Constitution must be amended to remove this weakness in it. It is in perfect harmony with scriptures and the word of God who made the Constitution amendable for this very purpose. And indeed it is our duty to use our influence to do the best we can to improve it in this way, according to the provisions God made in the Constitution itself.

Are you wiser than he?

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:50 pm

The problem remains the same. A wicked government and people will never accept the change. Nor allow it. You would still have to change hearts befor you could change the constitution. And if you changed hearts the need to change the constitution goes away with the change of heart.


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