husband trying to recover from porn addiction

[FTC]

The best thing to do is exactly the opposite of what the church does--don't make a big deal about it.

"Porn addiction" is primarily a Utah phenomenon. Why do you think that is?

) ) ) ) )

Heck no.

Did you not read the Ensign article?

Some experts have noted the similarities between sex addiction and Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. The more you try NOT to think about something, the more you obsess over it. The more you obsess over it, the greater the compulsion to act out. It's like holding a hot iron in your hand and trying to tell yourself not to think about it. Better to let go, walk away, and find something else to think about instead.

This was a problem for some people that would do the sing a church hymn in your head when you started thinking bad thoughts - sure fire way to make the bad thoughts go away. Didn't work for everybody. Someone people doing this started to get sexually aroused when certain hymns would start playing at church. Because the mind associated sexual arousal with that sound (hymn). Turned into a nasty snowball effect.

Outside of mormondom, some people would get aroused just by hearing the sound of a dial-up modem ringing. Because the mind made the connection that the dial-up ring tone was going to lead to sexual things right after.

[Fiannan]

This was a problem for some people that would do the sing a church hymn in your head when you started thinking bad thoughts

Great example of classical conditioning. I heard of cases where when a person would get the urge to do something naughty they would grab the scriptures and read them. Problem is they would start thinkiing about those actions when they picked up their scriptures even in Church.

Pavlov would understand.

[Gage]

Just tell yourself over and over "Do I really want to let these naughty females in these porn videos condemn my soul? And then go take a cold shower and then watch cartoons.

[LukeAir2008]

What the evangelicals are saying about those who use pornography..

[skmo]

Pavlov would understand.

It would probably ring a bell for his dogs, as well.

[SaidNobody]

Looks like I missed some good discussion.

There is a great audio series called "the butterfly effect."

This isn't just one person's problem.

Statistically, testosterone levels have recently begun falling in American males. Teenage pregnancy is down. Some think it's both because of free, streaming porn. Boys and girls are less likely to seek each other out. Husbands and wives are less like struggle through the awkward emotional conflicts.

This is becoming a national heath crisis.

[Fiannan]

Looks like I missed some good discussion.

There is a great audio series called "the butterfly effect."

This isn't just one person's problem.

Statistically, testosterone levels have recently begun falling in American males. Teenage pregnancy is down. Some think it's both because of free, streaming porn. Boys and girls are less likely to seek each other out. Husbands and wives are less like struggle through the awkward emotional conflicts.

This is becoming a national heath crisis.

Actually viewing porn may be an attempt at the subconscious level to boost testosterone as even thinking of sex increases testosterone for both males and females. And before anyone attempts to say this is a justification for porn viewing it isn't, any more than saying if a person is thirsty and is given the opportunity to drink a pitcher of beer that drinking that beer is a good moral choice.

I would think that testosterone levels are down due to obesity, stress, self-loathing and guilt, lack of high impact exercise, low-protein diets (vegans for example), our quest to get rid of competitive attitudes in males in particular, drinking alcohol and smoking. Modern life and lifestyles are castrating men. It is part of a design in my opinion to crash the birthrate.

[SaidNobody]

Actually viewing porn may be an attempt at the subconscious level to boost testosterone as even thinking of sex increases testosterone for both males and females.

I might have agreed with this once, but I get the impression the drop is connected to the porn.

I wish I knew of other studies on the matter.

[Lilliancc]

Essential oils can cure his addiction.oregano and black pepper on first. Apply to spine. Then lemongrass on top. It actually works. Its amazing. Buy quality oils such as rocky mountain oils. Young living or doterra. It does actually work

[Thinker]

One way of helping someone get over an addiction is to NOT shame them about it. Women who are shaming and blaming your husbands, try to imagine how YOU would feel if he reacted the same way about your weaknesses.

Imagine if the addiction was food.
And the topic was:

Wife trying to recover from junk-food addiction

• Satan is gery good at convincing people junk-food addiction is harmless - but the facts show that heart disease (which obesity is related to) is the #1 killer in the US!!
  Husband feels heartbroken because wife turns to food more than to him.
  Many people don’t see the devastating effect food addiction has on families.
  When your spouse is not satisfied with a living, breathing, person but would rather waste all their energy and intimacy on binge-eating, you may need a support group.
  Pray that your spouse can overcome eating junk food.
  Help her understand it takes away from the spirit.
  Over the course of a marriage, sometimes one member has to carry the other one, spiritually.
  Men, remember she likely had issues with this long before.
  Overeating is a compulsive disorder and is physically driven by brain chemistry.
  Brain chemistry is changed with this addiction and so it will take time to re-train her brain.
  Men, take all of the junk food out of the house.
  Spy on her and if you catch her eating junk food - shame her!

“He (or she) that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.” - John 8

[mgridle1]

One way of helping someone get over an addiction is to NOT shame them about it. Women who are shaming and blaming your husbands, try to imagine how YOU would feel if he reacted the same way about your weaknesses.

Imagine if the addiction was food.
And the topic was:

Wife trying to recover from junk-food addiction

• Satan is gery good at convincing people junk-food addiction is harmless - but the facts show that heart disease (which obesity is related to) is the #1 killer in the US!!
  Husband feels heartbroken because wife turns to food more than to him.
  Many people don’t see the devastating effect food addiction has on families.
  When your spouse is not satisfied with a living, breathing, person but would rather waste all their energy and intimacy on binge-eating, you may need a support group.
  Pray that your spouse can overcome eating junk food.
  Help her understand it takes away from the spirit.
  Over the course of a marriage, sometimes one member has to carry the other one, spiritually.
  Men, remember she likely had issues with this long before.
  Overeating is a compulsive disorder and is physically driven by brain chemistry.
  Brain chemistry is changed with this addiction and so it will take time to re-train her brain.
  Men, take all of the junk food out of the house.
  Spy on her and if you catch her eating junk food - shame her!

“He (or she) that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.” - John 8

Sort of . ..I don't know we've gotten shame/guilt mixed up and not in a good way.

You absolutely want them to feel guilt,pain, remorse over their sins. It is what motivates us to do better.

[Thinker]

One way of helping someone get over an addiction is to NOT shame them about it. Women who are shaming and blaming your husbands, try to imagine how YOU would feel if he reacted the same way about your weaknesses.

Imagine if the addiction was food.
And the topic was:

Wife trying to recover from junk-food addiction

• Satan is gery good at convincing people junk-food addiction is harmless - but the facts show that heart disease (which obesity is related to) is the #1 killer in the US!!
  Husband feels heartbroken because wife turns to food more than to him.
  Many people don’t see the devastating effect food addiction has on families.
  When your spouse is not satisfied with a living, breathing, person but would rather waste all their energy and intimacy on binge-eating, you may need a support group.
  Pray that your spouse can overcome eating junk food.
  Help her understand it takes away from the spirit.
  Over the course of a marriage, sometimes one member has to carry the other one, spiritually.
  Men, remember she likely had issues with this long before.
  Overeating is a compulsive disorder and is physically driven by brain chemistry.
  Brain chemistry is changed with this addiction and so it will take time to re-train her brain.
  Men, take all of the junk food out of the house.
  Spy on her and if you catch her eating junk food - shame her!

“He (or she) that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.” - John 8

Sort of . ..I don't know we've gotten shame/guilt mixed up and not in a good way.

You absolutely want them to feel guilt,pain, remorse over their sins. It is what motivates us to do better.

Yes, we have gotten them mixed up.
Guilt motivates us to do better.
Shame discourages us and makes us feel like we’re hopeless.

• “Shame reflects how we feel about ourselves and guilt involves an awareness that our actions have injured someone else. In other words, shame relates to self, guilt to others...
  
  [According to dictionary...] Guilt involves the awareness of having done something wrong; it arises from our actions. Shame may result from the awareness of guilt but apparently is not the same thing as guilt. It's a painful feeling about how we appear to others (and to ourselves) and doesn't necessarily depend on our having done anything...
  
  When shame is especially pervasive (what I refer to as core or basic shame), it usually precludes feelings of genuine concern and guilt from developing; the sense of being damaged is so powerful and painful that it crowds out feeling for anyone else...
  
  In others words, core shame reflects early psychological damage that impedes growth; the capacity to feel guilt depends upon that psychological growth and could be seen as emotional progress.” https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -and-shame

So... the more you shame someone for something, the harder you make it for them to change and progress. That doesn’t mean you have to suck it up and be quiet. Using “I statements” is probably better than “You statements.” And correcting cognitive distortions is also important (https://www.therapistaid.com/worksheets ... rtions.pdf). E.g.: Instead of saying, “You always think of yourself”... rather say: “I feel dismissed and it seems to me like you care more about - - - - than me. Is that true?”

This is not easy - I often struggle with it. I think one of the keys is to owning our own thoughts, feelings and actions and giving others the time and space to do the same.

[mgridle1]

One way of helping someone get over an addiction is to NOT shame them about it. Women who are shaming and blaming your husbands, try to imagine how YOU would feel if he reacted the same way about your weaknesses.

Imagine if the addiction was food.
And the topic was:

Wife trying to recover from junk-food addiction

• Satan is gery good at convincing people junk-food addiction is harmless - but the facts show that heart disease (which obesity is related to) is the #1 killer in the US!!
  Husband feels heartbroken because wife turns to food more than to him.
  Many people don’t see the devastating effect food addiction has on families.
  When your spouse is not satisfied with a living, breathing, person but would rather waste all their energy and intimacy on binge-eating, you may need a support group.
  Pray that your spouse can overcome eating junk food.
  Help her understand it takes away from the spirit.
  Over the course of a marriage, sometimes one member has to carry the other one, spiritually.
  Men, remember she likely had issues with this long before.
  Overeating is a compulsive disorder and is physically driven by brain chemistry.
  Brain chemistry is changed with this addiction and so it will take time to re-train her brain.
  Men, take all of the junk food out of the house.
  Spy on her and if you catch her eating junk food - shame her!

“He (or she) that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.” - John 8

Sort of . ..I don't know we've gotten shame/guilt mixed up and not in a good way.

You absolutely want them to feel guilt,pain, remorse over their sins. It is what motivates us to do better.

Yes, we have gotten them mixed up.
Guilt motivates us to do better.
Shame discourages us and makes us feel like we’re hopeless.

• “Shame reflects how we feel about ourselves and guilt involves an awareness that our actions have injured someone else. In other words, shame relates to self, guilt to others...
  
  [According to dictionary...] Guilt involves the awareness of having done something wrong; it arises from our actions. Shame may result from the awareness of guilt but apparently is not the same thing as guilt. It's a painful feeling about how we appear to others (and to ourselves) and doesn't necessarily depend on our having done anything...
  
  When shame is especially pervasive (what I refer to as core or basic shame), it usually precludes feelings of genuine concern and guilt from developing; the sense of being damaged is so powerful and painful that it crowds out feeling for anyone else...
  
  In others words, core shame reflects early psychological damage that impedes growth; the capacity to feel guilt depends upon that psychological growth and could be seen as emotional progress.” https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -and-shame

So... the more you shame someone for something, the harder you make it for them to change and progress. That doesn’t mean you have to suck it up and be quiet. Using “I statements” is probably better than “You statements.” And correcting cognitive distortions is also important (https://www.therapistaid.com/worksheets ... rtions.pdf). E.g.: Instead of saying, “You always think of yourself”... rather say: “I feel dismissed and it seems to me like you care more about - - - - than me. Is that true?”

This is not easy - I often struggle with it. I think one of the keys is to owning our own thoughts, feelings and actions and giving others the time and space to do the same.

I disagree:
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/shame
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/guilt

I think too many people try to parse things in ways that shouldn't be parsed and I think shame is one of those words that pyschologists have twisted into a bunch of psyco-babble. Complete crap and meaningless.

Telling someone "I feel dismissed" vs "You only think of yourself" are indeed two different statements and they in fact might be very accurate representations of the truth. You might very well have someone in your life who truly only does think of themselves in any given situation. That might be the honest to goodness truth. Telling that person "I feel dismissed" is crap and will never help motivate them to actually change b/c instead of changing themselves they will attempt to change the perception of themselves.

And that's a big difference. They will in essence be doing the right thing for the wrong reason- they might think "we'll I'm really not a selfish SOB, but I'll tweak this one aspect about my life so that this person won't think I'm an SOB". Contrast that with "hmm, maybe I really am an SOB, I should think about changing who I am".

I think it's too much of the psycho-babble crap that has destroyed society.

[Thinker]

One way of helping someone get over an addiction is to NOT shame them about it. Women who are shaming and blaming your husbands, try to imagine how YOU would feel if he reacted the same way about your weaknesses.

Imagine if the addiction was food.
And the topic was:

Wife trying to recover from junk-food addiction

• Satan is gery good at convincing people junk-food addiction is harmless - but the facts show that heart disease (which obesity is related to) is the #1 killer in the US!!
  Husband feels heartbroken because wife turns to food more than to him.
  Many people don’t see the devastating effect food addiction has on families.
  When your spouse is not satisfied with a living, breathing, person but would rather waste all their energy and intimacy on binge-eating, you may need a support group.
  Pray that your spouse can overcome eating junk food.
  Help her understand it takes away from the spirit.
  Over the course of a marriage, sometimes one member has to carry the other one, spiritually.
  Men, remember she likely had issues with this long before.
  Overeating is a compulsive disorder and is physically driven by brain chemistry.
  Brain chemistry is changed with this addiction and so it will take time to re-train her brain.
  Men, take all of the junk food out of the house.
  Spy on her and if you catch her eating junk food - shame her!

“He (or she) that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.” - John 8

Sort of . ..I don't know we've gotten shame/guilt mixed up and not in a good way.

You absolutely want them to feel guilt,pain, remorse over their sins. It is what motivates us to do better.

Yes, we have gotten them mixed up.
Guilt motivates us to do better.
Shame discourages us and makes us feel like we’re hopeless.

• “Shame reflects how we feel about ourselves and guilt involves an awareness that our actions have injured someone else. In other words, shame relates to self, guilt to others...
  
  [According to dictionary...] Guilt involves the awareness of having done something wrong; it arises from our actions. Shame may result from the awareness of guilt but apparently is not the same thing as guilt. It's a painful feeling about how we appear to others (and to ourselves) and doesn't necessarily depend on our having done anything...
  
  When shame is especially pervasive (what I refer to as core or basic shame), it usually precludes feelings of genuine concern and guilt from developing; the sense of being damaged is so powerful and painful that it crowds out feeling for anyone else...
  
  In others words, core shame reflects early psychological damage that impedes growth; the capacity to feel guilt depends upon that psychological growth and could be seen as emotional progress.” https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -and-shame

So... the more you shame someone for something, the harder you make it for them to change and progress. That doesn’t mean you have to suck it up and be quiet. Using “I statements” is probably better than “You statements.” And correcting cognitive distortions is also important (https://www.therapistaid.com/worksheets ... rtions.pdf). E.g.: Instead of saying, “You always think of yourself”... rather say: “I feel dismissed and it seems to me like you care more about - - - - than me. Is that true?”

This is not easy - I often struggle with it. I think one of the keys is to owning our own thoughts, feelings and actions and giving others the time and space to do the same.

I disagree:
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/shame
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/guilt

I think too many people try to parse things in ways that shouldn't be parsed and I think shame is one of those words that pyschologists have twisted into a bunch of psyco-babble. Complete crap and meaningless.

Telling someone "I feel dismissed" vs "You only think of yourself" are indeed two different statements and they in fact might be very accurate representations of the truth. You might very well have someone in your life who truly only does think of themselves in any given situation. That might be the honest to goodness truth. Telling that person "I feel dismissed" is crap and will never help motivate them to actually change b/c instead of changing themselves they will attempt to change the perception of themselves.

And that's a big difference. They will in essence be doing the right thing for the wrong reason- they might think "we'll I'm really not a selfish SOB, but I'll tweak this one aspect about my life so that this person won't think I'm an SOB". Contrast that with "hmm, maybe I really am an SOB, I should think about changing who I am".

I think it's too much of the psycho-babble crap that has destroyed society.

Do you know what’s really destroying society? Cognitive distortions - (distorted thinking) and consequent feeling, intent and action. Thought precedes action.

Those dictionary definitions show a similar difference. Shame is more based on feeling - whether that feeling is based on guilt or not. Guilt is commission of a crime or other immoral act.

As I admitted, I struggle with “I statements” so my example may not have been ideal. But hopefully you understand the intent - when confronting or arguing with someone you love, it’s best if both take their own responsibility rather than just point fingers.

It’s so easy to say, “You are a Jerk!” But what does that do except make you look ignorant for engaging in logical fallacy - ad hominem attack. When I have felt really upset, I have thought in terms of labeling someone as a jerk (or other terms). But then I question myself, “Is that really what they are? I thought you hated labels.” I do hate labels. Each person is so complex...
Just for Emotional intelligence component of a person are:

• -Managing Feelings
  -Handling Stress
  -Empathy
  -Communication
  -Self-Disclosure
  -Insight - identifying patterns in your emotional life and reactions (& in others)
  -Self-Acceptance
  -Personal Responsibility
  -Assertiveness
  -Group Dynamics - cooperation, knowing when to lead and when to follow
  -Conflict Resolution

For Physical - you also have a long list of physiological body systems (like cardiovascular, endocrine, etc), sleep, diet, exercise, etc. For Intellectual, Social, Financial, Psychological (personality, temperament), Spiritual - are lists for each. We are way too complex to just slap on an ad hominem attack label like SOB. And let’s say that while you think someone is a SOB, someone else thinks they’re the best. Who’s right? They could chalk your insult up as just you being mean etc. Wouldn’t it be more helpful to tell them exactly what bothers YOU? And how does that name calling help anyone? I believe the only fitting, true label for anyone is a child of God.

I understand you not wanting to beat around the bush, to not sugar coat things. And we both probably agree that “safe spaces” are ridiculous and many people need to get thicker skin. What I’m suggesting is that when we deal with others’ weaknesses, we need to:

• realize we have weaknesses too,
  *focus on the behavior, rather than shaming the person - because shaming the person backfires, &
  *seek to understand how complex we each are,
  *to best respond to another & take care of oneself.

[mgridle1]

Sort of . ..I don't know we've gotten shame/guilt mixed up and not in a good way.

You absolutely want them to feel guilt,pain, remorse over their sins. It is what motivates us to do better.

Yes, we have gotten them mixed up.
Guilt motivates us to do better.
Shame discourages us and makes us feel like we’re hopeless.

• “Shame reflects how we feel about ourselves and guilt involves an awareness that our actions have injured someone else. In other words, shame relates to self, guilt to others...
  
  [According to dictionary...] Guilt involves the awareness of having done something wrong; it arises from our actions. Shame may result from the awareness of guilt but apparently is not the same thing as guilt. It's a painful feeling about how we appear to others (and to ourselves) and doesn't necessarily depend on our having done anything...
  
  When shame is especially pervasive (what I refer to as core or basic shame), it usually precludes feelings of genuine concern and guilt from developing; the sense of being damaged is so powerful and painful that it crowds out feeling for anyone else...
  
  In others words, core shame reflects early psychological damage that impedes growth; the capacity to feel guilt depends upon that psychological growth and could be seen as emotional progress.” https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -and-shame

So... the more you shame someone for something, the harder you make it for them to change and progress. That doesn’t mean you have to suck it up and be quiet. Using “I statements” is probably better than “You statements.” And correcting cognitive distortions is also important (https://www.therapistaid.com/worksheets ... rtions.pdf). E.g.: Instead of saying, “You always think of yourself”... rather say: “I feel dismissed and it seems to me like you care more about - - - - than me. Is that true?”

This is not easy - I often struggle with it. I think one of the keys is to owning our own thoughts, feelings and actions and giving others the time and space to do the same.

I disagree:
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/shame
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/guilt

I think too many people try to parse things in ways that shouldn't be parsed and I think shame is one of those words that pyschologists have twisted into a bunch of psyco-babble. Complete crap and meaningless.

Telling someone "I feel dismissed" vs "You only think of yourself" are indeed two different statements and they in fact might be very accurate representations of the truth. You might very well have someone in your life who truly only does think of themselves in any given situation. That might be the honest to goodness truth. Telling that person "I feel dismissed" is crap and will never help motivate them to actually change b/c instead of changing themselves they will attempt to change the perception of themselves.

And that's a big difference. They will in essence be doing the right thing for the wrong reason- they might think "we'll I'm really not a selfish SOB, but I'll tweak this one aspect about my life so that this person won't think I'm an SOB". Contrast that with "hmm, maybe I really am an SOB, I should think about changing who I am".

I think it's too much of the psycho-babble crap that has destroyed society.

Do you know what’s really destroying society? Cognitive distortions - (distorted thinking) and consequent feeling, intent and action. Thought precedes action.

Those dictionary definitions show a similar difference. Shame is more based on feeling - whether that feeling is based on guilt or not. Guilt is commission of a crime or other immoral act.

As I admitted, I struggle with “I statements” so my example may not have been ideal. But hopefully you understand the intent - when confronting or arguing with someone you love, it’s best if both take their own responsibility rather than just point fingers.

It’s so easy to say, “You are a Jerk!” But what does that do except make you look ignorant for engaging in logical fallacy - ad hominem attack. When I have felt really upset, I have thought in terms of labeling someone as a jerk (or other terms). But then I question myself, “Is that really what they are? I thought you hated labels.” I do hate labels. Each person is so complex...
Just for Emotional intelligence component of a person are:

• -Managing Feelings
  -Handling Stress
  -Empathy
  -Communication
  -Self-Disclosure
  -Insight - identifying patterns in your emotional life and reactions (& in others)
  -Self-Acceptance
  -Personal Responsibility
  -Assertiveness
  -Group Dynamics - cooperation, knowing when to lead and when to follow
  -Conflict Resolution

For Physical - you also have a long list of physiological body systems (like cardiovascular, endocrine, etc), sleep, diet, exercise, etc. For Intellectual, Social, Financial, Psychological (personality, temperament), Spiritual - are lists for each. We are way too complex to just slap on an ad hominem attack label like SOB. And let’s say that while you think someone is a SOB, someone else thinks they’re the best. Who’s right? They could chalk your insult up as just you being mean etc. Wouldn’t it be more helpful to tell them exactly what bothers YOU? And how does that name calling help anyone? I believe the only fitting, true label for anyone is a child of God.

I understand you not wanting to beat around the bush, to not sugar coat things. And we both probably agree that “safe spaces” are ridiculous and many people need to get thicker skin. What I’m suggesting is that when we deal with others’ weaknesses, we need to:

• realize we have weaknesses too,
  *focus on the behavior, rather than shaming the person - because shaming the person backfires, &
  *seek to understand how complex we each are,
  *to best respond to another & take care of oneself.

You bring up some really good points and I don't discount them. I didn't add, but thought to, that yes if you are telling someone that they are a very inconsiderate person you need to be doing it from a position of love and wanting to help the person see the errors of their ways, not out of anger, not out of holier than thou, but out of a sincere desire to help.

If you do it out of a sincere desire to help rather than anger, malice, revenge, desire to get even, etc. people can tell the difference. I submit telling someone the honest truth when done so from a position of love (as in you are conducting yourself in a manner that is way beneath your true potential), it will help that person rather than hurt.

The worst thing you can do to someone you love is tell them yeah, yeah you are such a great person as they drive their car of a cliff.

[mgridle1]

And this gets into one of my big pet peeves with the way the Church goes about in today's modern society teaching about pornography. They continually say pysco-babble crap like, oh users of pornography they are just good people who just make mistakes. Their whole pornography website is filled with psyco-babble crap rather than the true Word of God-it's quite sad. There are a few things about the Word of God on the overcoming pornography website . . . but not much.

Really? Good people who make mistakes, what a pack of lies. Christ tells us plainly for a man to lust after another women not his own is to commit adultery in the heart-adultery in the heart means that you have a wicked heart.

If you have a wicked heart, i.e. a heart that desires evil, you are NOT A GOOD PERSON!!! Period.

That's a tough pill to swallow in today's society of "oh everyone is just so great and wonderful, everyone gets a gold star!!!!!, everyone is a winner!!!!" But it's the absolute truth.

Do I think women should divorce men who look at pornography, NO! Divorce is for adultery and abuse, notice Christ didn't say lusting was adultery, but that it was adultery in the heart. It's a hard thing for a woman who marries a man who lusts after other women to understand that they married a wicked person. But Christ doesn't say you can divorce b/c you married someone who is wicked.

And it's what bothers me so much about the current Church's teachings about this stuff . . .b/c it's just plain wrong. Once you change your heart then the actual act of looking at pornography will go away. Cleanse the heart to desire righteousness not wickedness and poof the wicked acts go away.

So yes the man or woman who uses pornography needs to know and understand what it really signifies and sugar-coating it with stupid sayings like . . .well you're really just a good person who messes up now and then ain't enough to motivate someone to actually change!

[Thinker]

Yes, we have gotten them mixed up.
Guilt motivates us to do better.
Shame discourages us and makes us feel like we’re hopeless.

• “Shame reflects how we feel about ourselves and guilt involves an awareness that our actions have injured someone else. In other words, shame relates to self, guilt to others...
  
  [According to dictionary...] Guilt involves the awareness of having done something wrong; it arises from our actions. Shame may result from the awareness of guilt but apparently is not the same thing as guilt. It's a painful feeling about how we appear to others (and to ourselves) and doesn't necessarily depend on our having done anything...
  
  When shame is especially pervasive (what I refer to as core or basic shame), it usually precludes feelings of genuine concern and guilt from developing; the sense of being damaged is so powerful and painful that it crowds out feeling for anyone else...
  
  In others words, core shame reflects early psychological damage that impedes growth; the capacity to feel guilt depends upon that psychological growth and could be seen as emotional progress.” https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -and-shame

So... the more you shame someone for something, the harder you make it for them to change and progress. That doesn’t mean you have to suck it up and be quiet. Using “I statements” is probably better than “You statements.” And correcting cognitive distortions is also important (https://www.therapistaid.com/worksheets ... rtions.pdf). E.g.: Instead of saying, “You always think of yourself”... rather say: “I feel dismissed and it seems to me like you care more about - - - - than me. Is that true?”

This is not easy - I often struggle with it. I think one of the keys is to owning our own thoughts, feelings and actions and giving others the time and space to do the same.

I disagree:
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/shame
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/guilt

I think too many people try to parse things in ways that shouldn't be parsed and I think shame is one of those words that pyschologists have twisted into a bunch of psyco-babble. Complete crap and meaningless.

Telling someone "I feel dismissed" vs "You only think of yourself" are indeed two different statements and they in fact might be very accurate representations of the truth. You might very well have someone in your life who truly only does think of themselves in any given situation. That might be the honest to goodness truth. Telling that person "I feel dismissed" is crap and will never help motivate them to actually change b/c instead of changing themselves they will attempt to change the perception of themselves.

And that's a big difference. They will in essence be doing the right thing for the wrong reason- they might think "we'll I'm really not a selfish SOB, but I'll tweak this one aspect about my life so that this person won't think I'm an SOB". Contrast that with "hmm, maybe I really am an SOB, I should think about changing who I am".

I think it's too much of the psycho-babble crap that has destroyed society.

Do you know what’s really destroying society? Cognitive distortions - (distorted thinking) and consequent feeling, intent and action. Thought precedes action.

Those dictionary definitions show a similar difference. Shame is more based on feeling - whether that feeling is based on guilt or not. Guilt is commission of a crime or other immoral act.

As I admitted, I struggle with “I statements” so my example may not have been ideal. But hopefully you understand the intent - when confronting or arguing with someone you love, it’s best if both take their own responsibility rather than just point fingers.

It’s so easy to say, “You are a Jerk!” But what does that do except make you look ignorant for engaging in logical fallacy - ad hominem attack. When I have felt really upset, I have thought in terms of labeling someone as a jerk (or other terms). But then I question myself, “Is that really what they are? I thought you hated labels.” I do hate labels. Each person is so complex...
Just for Emotional intelligence component of a person are:

• -Managing Feelings
  -Handling Stress
  -Empathy
  -Communication
  -Self-Disclosure
  -Insight - identifying patterns in your emotional life and reactions (& in others)
  -Self-Acceptance
  -Personal Responsibility
  -Assertiveness
  -Group Dynamics - cooperation, knowing when to lead and when to follow
  -Conflict Resolution

For Physical - you also have a long list of physiological body systems (like cardiovascular, endocrine, etc), sleep, diet, exercise, etc. For Intellectual, Social, Financial, Psychological (personality, temperament), Spiritual - are lists for each. We are way too complex to just slap on an ad hominem attack label like SOB. And let’s say that while you think someone is a SOB, someone else thinks they’re the best. Who’s right? They could chalk your insult up as just you being mean etc. Wouldn’t it be more helpful to tell them exactly what bothers YOU? And how does that name calling help anyone? I believe the only fitting, true label for anyone is a child of God.

I understand you not wanting to beat around the bush, to not sugar coat things. And we both probably agree that “safe spaces” are ridiculous and many people need to get thicker skin. What I’m suggesting is that when we deal with others’ weaknesses, we need to:

• realize we have weaknesses too,
  *focus on the behavior, rather than shaming the person - because shaming the person backfires, &
  *seek to understand how complex we each are,
  *to best respond to another & take care of oneself.

You bring up some really good points and I don't discount them. I didn't add, but thought to, that yes if you are telling someone that they are a very inconsiderate person you need to be doing it from a position of love and wanting to help the person see the errors of their ways, not out of anger, not out of holier than thou, but out of a sincere desire to help.

If you do it out of a sincere desire to help rather than anger, malice, revenge, desire to get even, etc. people can tell the difference. I submit telling someone the honest truth when done so from a position of love (as in you are conducting yourself in a manner that is way beneath your true potential), it will help that person rather than hurt.

The worst thing you can do to someone you love is tell them yeah, yeah you are such a great person as they drive their car of a cliff.

I agree too much. My bluntness has gotten me in trouble many times. I have tried to show love before and after I call it as I see it, but it seems that others don’t like that. Well, sometimes it’s worked out, but I think the times when I haven’t gotten over anger & I tell them in that anger - then maybe that has something to do with it. And part of it is also they continue screwing up and don’t want anyone pointing it out. Again, I need to work on this - the “I statements,” saying it more compassionately etc.

[TheAuthor111]

Those who struggle with lust, Faith is the key to defeating it, thou must enter mindset of realising it is not what you truly want and allow God to aid ye in letting it go, once it is let go thou will no longer desire such things, but memory will be used by Devil to tempt still, but ye will be aware and separate it in mind, know that your brain has been wired in it neurons to associate it to pleasure and that network of associations must be broken in order to be freed from it. On physical side the network will break apart after enough time passes, the network is reinforced each time you give in, it only takes one act to reactivate the network, ye will need to abstain all together. Your spiritual side your spirit is in a state of darkness and it vibration is lowered when aligned to such sins, but through Faith and Hope thou can be uplifted and rise above such programming of this world. Call on Yehoshua for he has overcome the programs and can aid your spirit with his.

[TheAuthor111]

The situation that mortals are in is against them, many believe that the body your occupy is of God, but though it image may be of similarity know that thy body is working against you and so is your mind, it is fallen and corrupted, the natural plant has been altered by the adversary in ways ye see not even down to thy genetics. These things are not commonly known in Christianity but in understanding it one can learn to master oneself, emotions, thoughts all these things are used against ye by the system of the Beast, by the world of Babylon, never forget this world you are in is a kingdom of the Devil. It has not yet become a kingdom of God, not until the Millennial is fulfilled.

[Fiannan]

And this gets into one of my big pet peeves with the way the Church goes about in today's modern society teaching about pornography. They continually say pysco-babble crap like, oh users of pornography they are just good people who just make mistakes. Their whole pornography website is filled with psyco-babble crap rather than the true Word of God-it's quite sad. There are a few things about the Word of God on the overcoming pornography website . . . but not much.

What would you tell the Church to do then?

Really? Good people who make mistakes, what a pack of lies. Christ tells us plainly for a man to lust after another women not his own is to commit adultery in the heart-adultery in the heart means that you have a wicked heart.

My understanding is sexual coveting, in the Jewish sense, and Jesus was a Jew, means making a plan to execute, such as, "Hey, my neighbor's wife is hot and Charlie is out of town this weekend. Maybe if I offer to help her with law work...maybe." That is coveting and that is what lusting in the heart is all about.

If you have a wicked heart, i.e. a heart that desires evil, you are NOT A GOOD PERSON!!! Period.

Well, that pretty much sinks everyone.

That's a tough pill to swallow in today's society of "oh everyone is just so great and wonderful, everyone gets a gold star!!!!!, everyone is a winner!!!!" But it's the absolute truth.

Not what the Church says.

Do I think women should divorce men who look at pornography, NO! Divorce is for adultery and abuse, notice Christ didn't say lusting was adultery, but that it was adultery in the heart. It's a hard thing for a woman who marries a man who lusts after other women to understand that they married a wicked person. But Christ doesn't say you can divorce b/c you married someone who is wicked.

Well that is encouraging. Catch a spouse looking at porn, or some gal at a young adult activity in a bikini, and time to judge them as evil.

And it's what bothers me so much about the current Church's teachings about this stuff . . .b/c it's just plain wrong. Once you change your heart then the actual act of looking at pornography will go away. Cleanse the heart to desire righteousness not wickedness and poof the wicked acts go away.

Your plan?

So yes the man or woman who uses pornography needs to know and understand what it really signifies and sugar-coating it with stupid sayings like . . .well you're really just a good person who messes up now and then ain't enough to motivate someone to actually change!

No, tell them how wretched a creature they are and that will certainly facilitate change.

[MMbelieve]

And this gets into one of my big pet peeves with the way the Church goes about in today's modern society teaching about pornography. They continually say pysco-babble crap like, oh users of pornography they are just good people who just make mistakes. Their whole pornography website is filled with psyco-babble crap rather than the true Word of God-it's quite sad. There are a few things about the Word of God on the overcoming pornography website . . . but not much.

Really? Good people who make mistakes, what a pack of lies. Christ tells us plainly for a man to lust after another women not his own is to commit adultery in the heart-adultery in the heart means that you have a wicked heart.

If you have a wicked heart, i.e. a heart that desires evil, you are NOT A GOOD PERSON!!! Period.

That's a tough pill to swallow in today's society of "oh everyone is just so great and wonderful, everyone gets a gold star!!!!!, everyone is a winner!!!!" But it's the absolute truth.

Do I think women should divorce men who look at pornography, NO! Divorce is for adultery and abuse, notice Christ didn't say lusting was adultery, but that it was adultery in the heart. It's a hard thing for a woman who marries a man who lusts after other women to understand that they married a wicked person. But Christ doesn't say you can divorce b/c you married someone who is wicked.

And it's what bothers me so much about the current Church's teachings about this stuff . . .b/c it's just plain wrong. Once you change your heart then the actual act of looking at pornography will go away. Cleanse the heart to desire righteousness not wickedness and poof the wicked acts go away.

So yes the man or woman who uses pornography needs to know and understand what it really signifies and sugar-coating it with stupid sayings like . . .well you're really just a good person who messes up now and then ain't enough to motivate someone to actually change!

The good old fire and brimstone preacher broadcast dealing with this would be quite refreshing.

We are too accepting and too soft on pornography and other sinful things too. It's dragging it out further than it needs to be drug out and causes us to have to speak on it more than we should have to.

Like a subtle enabling of it. But, that's how it seems to be with the exception of a few things that will get you a swift discipline. Someday those who were/are slothful and lazy about getting pornography out of their lives will find themselves left behind scratching their heads with no one to coddle their feelings anymore, just the Devils they hung out with while participating in that activity.

The worst thing to tell men and boys is that it's natural to want to watch pornography. It's actually natural to have sex with a real person not sit there with a woody in the dark with a fake woman in a screen. That's just sad and pathetic and absolutely castrating.
Never mind the kind of evil spirits that you accompany. I'm actually surprised any spiritual man ever return to watch pornography, you must deny the holy ghost to do so.

[mgridle1]

And this gets into one of my big pet peeves with the way the Church goes about in today's modern society teaching about pornography. They continually say pysco-babble crap like, oh users of pornography they are just good people who just make mistakes. Their whole pornography website is filled with psyco-babble crap rather than the true Word of God-it's quite sad. There are a few things about the Word of God on the overcoming pornography website . . . but not much.

What would you tell the Church to do then?

Really? Good people who make mistakes, what a pack of lies. Christ tells us plainly for a man to lust after another women not his own is to commit adultery in the heart-adultery in the heart means that you have a wicked heart.

My understanding is sexual coveting, in the Jewish sense, and Jesus was a Jew, means making a plan to execute, such as, "Hey, my neighbor's wife is hot and Charlie is out of town this weekend. Maybe if I offer to help her with law work...maybe." That is coveting and that is what lusting in the heart is all about.

If you have a wicked heart, i.e. a heart that desires evil, you are NOT A GOOD PERSON!!! Period.

Well, that pretty much sinks everyone.

That's a tough pill to swallow in today's society of "oh everyone is just so great and wonderful, everyone gets a gold star!!!!!, everyone is a winner!!!!" But it's the absolute truth.

Not what the Church says.

Do I think women should divorce men who look at pornography, NO! Divorce is for adultery and abuse, notice Christ didn't say lusting was adultery, but that it was adultery in the heart. It's a hard thing for a woman who marries a man who lusts after other women to understand that they married a wicked person. But Christ doesn't say you can divorce b/c you married someone who is wicked.

Well that is encouraging. Catch a spouse looking at porn, or some gal at a young adult activity in a bikini, and time to judge them as evil.

And it's what bothers me so much about the current Church's teachings about this stuff . . .b/c it's just plain wrong. Once you change your heart then the actual act of looking at pornography will go away. Cleanse the heart to desire righteousness not wickedness and poof the wicked acts go away.

Your plan?

So yes the man or woman who uses pornography needs to know and understand what it really signifies and sugar-coating it with stupid sayings like . . .well you're really just a good person who messes up now and then ain't enough to motivate someone to actually change!

No, tell them how wretched a creature they are and that will certainly facilitate change.

Yes it actually will. The prophets in the Scriptures didn't sugar-coat it.
"Oh wretched man that I am!"

[Z2100]

the idea of Visions of Glory is a good suggestion too- that visual of the interaction of good and bad influences has also helped my friend's family. I'm so sorry you are going through this.

I know what your talking about. I found it interesting as well, with the evil spirits going nuts over the guy lol

[MMbelieve]

the idea of Visions of Glory is a good suggestion too- that visual of the interaction of good and bad influences has also helped my friend's family. I'm so sorry you are going through this.

I know what your talking about. I found it interesting as well, with the evil spirits going nuts over the guy lol

I read that too per a suggestion on this forum. Creepy and not at all surprising of a fact. The spirits that accompany pornography are some serious buggers! There's something different about pornography for sure that causes this, I don't think the same type of spirits accompany all immoral acts. This, to me, proves how evil it really is.

[Fiannan]

I read that too per a suggestion on this forum. Creepy and not at all surprising of a fact. The spirits that accompany pornography are some serious buggers! There's something different about pornography for sure that causes this, I don't think the same type of spirits accompany all immoral acts. This, to me, proves how evil it really is.

You may be onto something there. It may not be demons, archons or jinn but rather an energy exchange that is not as it was intended. Humans are designed to unite in sexual union and participate in the act of creation. All other aspects of our creativity is re-organizing already-existing matter but here we can work with God to usher in new life.

Just as one has to be healthy to have full spiritual connection to God (it is in the Word of Wisdom, look it up) one enhances their connections to God's energy through sexual union. Here is where the problem is, if a man or woman is using these energies alone and with porn are they not still connecting, in a sense, with people in screen? As sex with one's spouse is an act of worship, as two become one to create three, so to speak, if one's divine spark is being shared vicariously with people they will never meet might this be, in a sense, redirection of that energy to negative forces? It is not as if some demon inhabits you, but rather you may be giving entities power in the same way as if someone had tapped into your electrical generation system and was feeding off it.

Any thoughts?