Questioning my Garments

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LouiseLane13
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Questioning my Garments

Post by LouiseLane13 »

This is my first post. I’m hoping I posted this in the right place. I don’t really know how to explain but lately I’ve been feeling that I don’t wish to wear my garments anymore. I feel that I need to reflect on why I actually wear them and not worry so much about what others think. I don’t know if I truly understand. I feel that I get caught up in thinking what others might think if I stop wearing my garments (not that I plan to dress too crazy or anything). I really don’t think I should be caring what others think. If wearing them because everyone else is and because we are supposed to is my reasoning, I don’t feel it’s right.

I know I haven’t been the most spiritual person lately. I don’t read my scriptures and I only pray once a day. I find myself questioning what I really do believe. (*Side note I am a convert. Technically I have been LDS since I was baptized at 9 but I only attended church a handful of times growing up and my parents weren’t LDS. I have only been active for maybe 3 years and even now I don’t know if I’m technically ‘active’). I’m so thankful that I didn’t grow up in the LDS culture (no offense to anyone who has enjoyed being a part of it). Before I never focused on clothes or piercings or tattoos- I knew and still know that they don’t make a person any better or different or worse than me. I think how we treat people is much more important than the clothes we wear, even if they are garments underneath our clothes.

I hope that this makes sense. Is it wrong to stop wearing them and reflect and read and truly learn about why I feel this way? I would love some words of encouragement or loving advice.

Nan
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by Nan »

I would suggest continuing to wear them at the same time that you strengthen your prayers, start reading your scriptures, go to church and go back to the temple. I would suggest doing this 4-6 months and see how you feel after doing these things.

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kathyn
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by kathyn »

Louise, not wanting to wear your garments is actually just a symptom of your present spiritual state of mind. Do not let the simple things be the "flaxen cords" that the adversary wants to attach to you. Pray with all of your might to know if it is the adversary whispering these things to you.

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ajax
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by ajax »

Ms Lane, reflecting and questioning are good. Don't let anyone make you feel bad for doing so.

I believe God would prefer we do more of it. He does not upbraid. (James 1:5)

Joseph said, "There is one thing under the sun which I have learned and that is that the righteousness of man is sin because it exacteth over much; nevertheless, the righteousness of God is just, because it exacteth nothing at all, but sendeth the rain on the just and the unjust, seed time and harvest, for all of which man is ungrateful."

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jbalm
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by jbalm »

Honestly, your underwear is nobody else's business.

(I wanted to say, in response to the title of this thread, "what did you ask them?"...but it's your first post.)

Lizzy60
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by Lizzy60 »

I was a temple worker for many years, and way too judgmental about how people did or didn't wear their garment.
In the temple, after giving instruction on wearing the garment, it was ALWAYS said, "ultimately how you wear your garment is between you and the Lord." This wording was from the Salt Lake Temple Department.

So, now the story that taught me a lesson I needed.

There was a single sister working on our shift, whose mother was not a member. This sister became engaged, and of course her mom could not come into the temple, but had to wait in the foyer on the day of the wedding. In order to honor her mother, this sweet girl wore her mother's wedding dress. It did not have sleeves, just wide shoulder straps. She wore the little jacket the temple provides to cover the arms when gals have short sleeve dresses.
Of course, the sisters were all abuzz, wondering what she was going to do about her garment sleeves when she went outside for pictures. The shoulder straps would not cover the garment. Was she going to adjust the garment (a no-no) or take it off (even worse)? Well, she came out of the dressing room, and headed for the door to the outside, bare arms in full view. She was intercepted by the TEMPLE PRESIDENT himself!! He asked her, "Sister, are you wearing your garment?" She looked him directly in the eyes, and said, "How I wear my garment is between me and the Lord."
Oh. My. Goodness.
This young sister actually put the tender feelings of her mother ahead of the judgmental attitudes of all the temple workers she had served with for so many years. Hooray for her!!! I learned more that day than I had in a long time.

Yes, how and when you wear your garment is between you and God. I hope in your search for your own personal answer to this question, you are able to begin developing a close and personal relationship with Him. It's possible He put this quandary in your mind in order to begin teaching you Himself.

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Desert Roses
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by Desert Roses »

The garment is such a blessing. It is an ongoing reminder to me of my promise to follow the Savior at all costs or in any circumstances. I know when we take the Sacrament, we promise to "remember always," but my mind has such a hard time with that. So every day, when I dress, when I undress, when I choose clothing that is in keeping with the garment, I get to remember that covenant--and the promise of the Savior to protect me. I don't necessarily think the garment is a physical protection, though there are some instances in my own family when it has done just that, but it is spiritual protection. That reminder helps me know that I am being protected from Satan's power which is very real and very destructive to my precious, tender spirit.

Ultimately, the decision is not anyone else's, but I hope that somehow the garment stops being about worries that others will judge, and instead be about the blessing and gift of protection, the opportunity to remember, and to daily remind you of why you came back and made the sacrifices needed to get your endowment to begin with. The endowment--a gift of spiritual power! The garment is a physical, tangible reminder of that power. I have power that is real, that allows me to repent, to change from the weak-willed, unhappy, angry woman I was to the confident, joyful, and strong woman that I am today. The garment is a gift from my Father and Savior--not a burden!

freedomforall
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by freedomforall »

I don't know if this will help or not, but I have a little example of what garments can do.
Years ago my wife (first) went on a week's camping trip to Flaming Gorge. All during that week, except for one time, I did not wear my garments. I wore cut off jeans and sometimes a shirt.
It was on a Wednesday, we had planned to go on a rubber raft ride down the river from Dutch John. As i was preparing for the trip I had a very strong impression to put on my garments. So I obeyed and put them on along with long pants, a shirt and a life vest.
As we, myself, my wife, a co-worker and his son of about twelve, my friend and his wife floated down the river, my friend decided to steer the raft over some harsh rapids, even after I asked him not to. As it turned out, I and my coworker and his son were thrown out of the raft at the rear. I was certain I was going to hit my head on a boulder beneath the swells but didn't. In fact, when I came up out of the water I still had my glasses on. Once I got my bearings and saw the raft some feet away at my side I swam toward it. The swim was very difficult and I couldn't figure out way, until it came to me that the boy was on my back, his arms around my neck, I had no idea how or when he was able to attach himself to me. His father, of whom, did not wear a vest and only had cutoffs and tee shirt went on down the river for quite a ways before we could retrieve him. He was mighty cold.
But had I not obeyed and put on my garments, there could have been completely different results for both the boy and I, perhaps and especially the boy.
I didn't wear my garments the rest of the week.

Benjamin_LK
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by Benjamin_LK »

Your underwear is nobody else's business. Antis love to go to crude, immature, and perverse degrees for nothing else than to self-affirm their delusions of Mormons as a Satanic World Domination Cult B.S. If you want my advice, regard their sentiment as utter @#$%@#@, and don't give the delusional bigots the attention that they're asking for, instead, focus on remembering your own covenants that you made, don't concern yourself with the low, worldly thinking, it's a waste of time.

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

When we receive the garment before the initiatory ceremony in the temple, we are told by the officiator: "...you must wear [the garment] throughout your life...". I wear my shoes throughout my life, but I don't wear them to bed, in the shower, if my feet are so hot they're melting, if I'm inside my home, etc. Sometimes it's not feasible to wear the garment either, like in the shower, for certain professions (Steve Young did not wear his during football games or practice, for example), when you're having a baby or having surgery, when you're swimming, etc. But when those particular times are, is ENTIRELY up to the individual. Nobody should EVER feel like they need to go to the bishop to ask permission to take off their undies for whatever the occasion in question is, or feel like they have sinned if they made that call on their own.

There is also a LOT that can be learned by looking into the history of the garment - including the origins from thousands of years ago, and what it actually represents. Although the lesson in the ordinance has been almost entirely lost in our modern version of the endowment, it can still be discovered with study and by the Holy Ghost.

I've learned first hand too, that God also may tell one person one thing about wearing their garment, and tell their neighbor something different about how they are supposed to wear it. It is ENTIRELY individual and personal.

freedomforall
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by freedomforall »

I remember when garments were such that the arm portion went all the way to one's wrist, and the legs all the way to the ankles. If worn like this today, how would they be treated with all the new "barely cover" fashions out there?
These type garments were worn during temple ordinances for some time. Now they're not, to my knowledge, anywhere. Yet, some people still go out of their way to roll up the sleeves or garment bottoms in order to wear almost whatever they want. Where does this end?
Aren't the garments special, sacred and holy? Don't they help in causing wearers to stand in holy places? Don't they provide protection as narrated by some? Are popular fashions so important that the garments become secondary, or not at all important?

What type of garments are being inferred here? And are they not important?


Alma 5:21
21 I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

Alma 7:25
25 And may the Lord bless you, and keep your garments spotless, that ye may at last be brought to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the holy prophets who have been ever since the world began, having your garments spotless even as their garments are spotless, in the kingdom of heaven to go no more out.

Alma 13:11 (11–13)

11 Therefore they were called after this holy order, and were sanctified, and their garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb.
12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.
13 And now, my brethren, I would that ye should humble yourselves before God, and bring forth fruit meet for repentance, that ye may also enter into that rest.

3 Ne. 27:19 (19–20)
19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.
20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

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ithink
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by ithink »

Benjamin_LK wrote:Your underwear is nobody else's business. Antis love to go to crude, immature, and perverse degrees for nothing else than to self-affirm their delusions of Mormons as a Satanic World Domination Cult B.S. If you want my advice, regard their sentiment as utter @#$%@#@, and don't give the delusional bigots the attention that they're asking for, instead, focus on remembering your own covenants that you made, don't concern yourself with the low, worldly thinking, it's a waste of time.
Anti's? Sure, but if you look past the hubris, there is something behind what they are saying.

Who here is in favor of the burka? How about the Mormon version of it?

Who here thinks that the outward appearance means anything?

Who here knows why Joseph was shot to death without his garments on?

Ditto for Hyrum. And what was strange about his garments?

Who here knows of the cultural forces and tradition, not revelation, that have shaped your garment?

Who here knows how many years passed before the garment was a part of the temple ceremony?

Who here knows that if you stood side by side by the "originals", circa Nauvoo, you would scarcely believe these were the same things -- marks included. Which begs the question: what, the marks have been changed? Did you not know that?

It's pretty easy to discard it all and call it anti-Mormon, but folks, that is the easy way out. Joseph was casual enough to take his off for weeks on end because it was too hot, and he ended his life not because it was too hot, but because he claimed he "was deceived", and he counseled other to do the same.

Go ahead and question. Look it up for yourself. Freely make up your own mind on the matter.

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

ithink wrote: he ended his life not because it was too hot, but because he claimed he "was deceived", and he counseled other to do the same.
Can you provide a source or two for this?

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AnthonyR
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by AnthonyR »

Hello Ms. Lane! I have heard from some who are "sighted" (seeing into the spiritual world) that those who increase in spiritual things are given spiritual garments. So, once you receive spiritual garments is it then necessary to wear the temple garment? Something to inquire about I suppose.

Other things to note, the garment used to have cuts (covenant=cut) on the symbols. Also over the right breast, look at the way it is pointing, now raise your right arm to the square and look at the symbol, hmmm was it changed?. Our G's are very symbollic and mean a lot to the religion. But they have been changed and do not offer the same protection as they used to. Could we make our own, cut them, put the correct symbols on them, pray over them with the spirit, and have them offer greater protection? Something to think about.

I think you should do whatever The Lord tells you to with the garment Loise.

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shylohmw
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by shylohmw »

I understand how the garment has changed through the years. It is not now what it was in Joseph's day. That being said, I am accountable for my knowledge when I took covenants upon myself. It can be good to have doubts. Doubts can lead to more doubts, or they can lead to searching, knowledge, insight, inspiration, revelation. I would personally be more concerned with your spiritual state than if you wear the garment or not. It is meant to be a physical reminder of the covenants made, but it you are not in a spiritually good place, or even thinking about those covenants, get yourself there first, then inquire of the Lord. If you are not in a position to be receiving revelation, or are not sure where your revelation is coming from, you are in danger of being deceived. It is between you and the Lord, but be absolutely CERTAIN it's the Lord who is doing the talking.

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Hyrcanus
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by Hyrcanus »

Jules wrote:
ithink wrote: he ended his life not because it was too hot, but because he claimed he "was deceived", and he counseled other to do the same.
Can you provide a source or two for this?
IIRC this comes out of Quinn's Origin's of Power book, which I think uses William Mark's & Heber C. Kimball's journals as a source. The specifc claim I recall is that he sent a letter to the Apostles serving missions in the east to return to Nauvoo and destroy their garments. In Quinn's book this is in the same section about Mark's claim that Joseph Smith had told him he had been deceived RE: Polygamy and was repenting of the practice. I'm not at home, but I can look up the reference later.

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Hyrcanus
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by Hyrcanus »

Jules wrote:
ithink wrote: he ended his life not because it was too hot, but because he claimed he "was deceived", and he counseled other to do the same.
Can you provide a source or two for this?
Oh, just for additional context, John Taylor said that Hyrum, Joseph and himself weren't wearing garments because it was too hot, but Willard Richards was. I think Heber C. Kimball's comment about destroying garments suggested that it was because they were afraid they'd be identified by their garments and killed. Some other missionaries reported removing their garments to avoid mobs who would check for them to try and find Mormon's. All of this is from memory, so take it with a grain of salt.

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ithink
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Re: Questioning my Garments

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Jules wrote:
ithink wrote: he ended his life not because it was too hot, but because he claimed he "was deceived", and he counseled other to do the same.
Can you provide a source or two for this?
Heber J. Grant journal sheets, 7 June 1907, LDS Archives

History of the Church 6:519 which mentions the letter, and Heber C. Kimball's diary, 21 Dec. 1845, found in the book "Smith, An Intimate Chronicle", page 224

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ithink
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Re: Questioning my Garments

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AnthonyR wrote:Hello Ms. Lane! I have heard from some who are "sighted" (seeing into the spiritual world) that those who increase in spiritual things are given spiritual garments. So, once you receive spiritual garments is it then necessary to wear the temple garment? Something to inquire about I suppose.

Other things to note, the garment used to have cuts (covenant=cut) on the symbols. Also over the right breast, look at the way it is pointing, now raise your right arm to the square and look at the symbol, hmmm was it changed?. Our G's are very symbollic and mean a lot to the religion. But they have been changed and do not offer the same protection as they used to. Could we make our own, cut them, put the correct symbols on them, pray over them with the spirit, and have them offer greater protection? Something to think about.

I think you should do whatever The Lord tells you to with the garment Loise.
The claim of protection from the garment is a modern contrival: it is not original, so I'm not sure how that could precede the changes, which it does not.

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ithink
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Re: Questioning my Garments

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shylohmw wrote:I understand how the garment has changed through the years. It is not now what it was in Joseph's day. That being said, I am accountable for my knowledge when I took covenants upon myself. It can be good to have doubts. Doubts can lead to more doubts, or they can lead to searching, knowledge, insight, inspiration, revelation. I would personally be more concerned with your spiritual state than if you wear the garment or not. It is meant to be a physical reminder of the covenants made, but it you are not in a spiritually good place, or even thinking about those covenants, get yourself there first, then inquire of the Lord. If you are not in a position to be receiving revelation, or are not sure where your revelation is coming from, you are in danger of being deceived. It is between you and the Lord, but be absolutely CERTAIN it's the Lord who is doing the talking.
Are you trying to scare anyone here? Acquiring new and more correct knowledge is never a mistake, and I would beware of those who say it is.

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ajax
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by ajax »

Hyrcanus / ithink,

Can you post some quotes from the sources you mentioned?

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ithink
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Re: Questioning my Garments

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Hyrcanus wrote:
Jules wrote:
ithink wrote: he ended his life not because it was too hot, but because he claimed he "was deceived", and he counseled other to do the same.
Can you provide a source or two for this?
IIRC this comes out of Quinn's Origin's of Power book, which I think uses William Mark's & Heber C. Kimball's journals as a source. The specifc claim I recall is that he sent a letter to the Apostles serving missions in the east to return to Nauvoo and destroy their garments. In Quinn's book this is in the same section about Mark's claim that Joseph Smith had told him he had been deceived RE: Polygamy and was repenting of the practice. I'm not at home, but I can look up the reference later.
William Marks was the Stake President at Nauvoo at the time. He has several communications at the time with JS about this topic. What he reports lines up with what Kimball reports. It also makes sense when you research the history of the garment itself. The reality of the whole thing is that the garment is nothing more than your skin.

"The garment of light, according to some accounts, was replaced by its earthly symbol, a garment of skin, after the fall. By this reckoning, the garment of skin given to the first human couple was their own skin, not that of animals. This makes even more sense when one considers that the Hebrew root for “nakedness” (crh) may be related to the word for “skin” (cor). The Book of the Rolls explains it this way: “After the clothing of fig-leaves they put on clothing of skins, and that is the skin of which our bodies are made, being of the family of man, and it is a clothing of pain.” John Tvedtnes, Temples of the Ancient World, p 652 http://publications.maxwellinstitute.by ... 0Times.PDF" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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ithink
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Re: Questioning my Garments

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ajax wrote:Hyrcanus / ithink,

Can you post some quotes from the sources you mentioned?
I already gave a couple, but if you refer to Marks, then you are looking for this:

William Marks, Nauvoo Stake President from 1839 to Joseph's martyrdom, stated the following:
“About the first of June, 1844 (situated as I was at that time, being the Presiding Elder of the Stake at Nauvoo, and by appointment the Presiding Officer of the High Council), I had a very good opportunity to know the affairs of the Church, and my convictions at that time were, that the Church in a great measure had departed from the pure principles and doctrines of Jesus Christ. I felt much troubled in mind about the condition of the Church. I prayed earnestly to my Heavenly Father to show me something in regard to it, when I was wrapt in vision, and it was shown me by the Spirit, that the top or branches had overcome the root, in sin and wickedness, and the only way to cleanse and purify it was, to disorganize it, and in due time, the Lord would reorganize it again. There were many things suggested to my mind, but the lapse of time has erased them from my memory. A few days after this occurrence I met with Brother Joseph. He said that he wanted to converse with me on the affairs of the church, and we retired by ourselves. I will give his words verbatim, for they are indelibly stamped upon my mind. He said he had desired for a long time to have a talk with me on the subject of polygamy. He said it eventually would prove the overthrow of the church, and we should soon be obliged to leave the United States, unless it could be speedily put down. He was satisfied that it was a cursed doctrine, and that there must be every exertion made to put it down. He said that he would go before the congregation and proclaim against it, and I must go into the High Council, and he would prefer charges against those in transgression, and I must sever them from the church, unless they made ample satisfaction. There was much more said, but this was the substance. The mob commenced to gather about Carthage in a few days after, therefore there was nothing done concerning it. After the Prophet’s death, I made mention of this conversation to several, hoping and believing that it would have a good effect; but to my great disappointment, it was soon rumoured about that Brother ­Marks was about to apostatize, and that all that he said about the conversation with the Prophet was a tissue of lies.”William Marks, Nauvoo Stake Pres., True Latter Days Saints Herald, Oct. 23,1859, 25-26

“During my administration in the Church [at Nauvoo] I saw and heard of many things that were practiced and taught that I did not believe to be of God…. Therefore when the doctrine of polygamy was introduced into the Church as a principle of exaltation, I took a decided stand against it; which stand rendered me quite unpopular with many of the leading ones of the church. I was also witness of the introduction (secretly) of a kingly form of government, in which Joseph suffered himself to be ordained a king, to reign over the house of Israel forever…. Joseph, however, became convinced before his death that he had done wrong; for about three weeks before his death, I met him one morning in the street, and he said to me, ‘Brother Marks, I have something to communicate to you.’ We retired to a by place, and sat down together, when he said: ‘We are a ruined people.’ I asked how so? He said: ‘This doctrine of polygamy, or spiritual wife system, that has been taught and practiced among us, will prove our destruction and overthrow. I have been deceived,' said he, 'in reference to its practice; it is wrong; it is a curse to mankind, and we shall have to leave the United States soon, unless it can be put down, and its practice stopped in the Church.’ ” William Marks, Zion's Harbinger and Baneemy's Organ, Vol. 3:52-53, July 1853

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Hyrcanus
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by Hyrcanus »

ithink wrote:
AnthonyR wrote:Hello Ms. Lane! I have heard from some who are "sighted" (seeing into the spiritual world) that those who increase in spiritual things are given spiritual garments. So, once you receive spiritual garments is it then necessary to wear the temple garment? Something to inquire about I suppose.

Other things to note, the garment used to have cuts (covenant=cut) on the symbols. Also over the right breast, look at the way it is pointing, now raise your right arm to the square and look at the symbol, hmmm was it changed?. Our G's are very symbollic and mean a lot to the religion. But they have been changed and do not offer the same protection as they used to. Could we make our own, cut them, put the correct symbols on them, pray over them with the spirit, and have them offer greater protection? Something to think about.

I think you should do whatever The Lord tells you to with the garment Loise.
The claim of protection from the garment is a modern contrival: it is not original, so I'm not sure how that could precede the changes, which it does not.
I'm not sure how modern it is, I think it dates back to the idea that Willard Richards emerged unscathed because he was wearing his. I'd have to do some digging to see how early that connection was made.

RE: Marks, I don't think his remarks are entirely without merit, but they did come after he had already affiliated himself with the Strangites and then what would become the RLDS movement, so that has to factor into possible motivations. Just as you would factor affiliation with the Utah church into remarks by the others. Long story short, they're not bulletproof.

rproe67
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by rproe67 »

Hyrcanus wrote:
ithink wrote:
AnthonyR wrote:Hello Ms. Lane! I have heard from some who are "sighted" (seeing into the spiritual world) that those who increase in spiritual things are given spiritual garments. So, once you receive spiritual garments is it then necessary to wear the temple garment? Something to inquire about I suppose.

Other things to note, the garment used to have cuts (covenant=cut) on the symbols. Also over the right breast, look at the way it is pointing, now raise your right arm to the square and look at the symbol, hmmm was it changed?. Our G's are very symbollic and mean a lot to the religion. But they have been changed and do not offer the same protection as they used to. Could we make our own, cut them, put the correct symbols on them, pray over them with the spirit, and have them offer greater protection? Something to think about.

I think you should do whatever The Lord tells you to with the garment Loise.
The claim of protection from the garment is a modern contrival: it is not original, so I'm not sure how that could precede the changes, which it does not.
I'm not sure how modern it is, I think it dates back to the idea that Willard Richards emerged unscathed because he was wearing his. I'd have to do some digging to see how early that connection was made.

RE: Marks, I don't think his remarks are entirely without merit, but they did come after he had already affiliated himself with the Strangites and then what would become the RLDS movement, so that has to factor into possible motivations. Just as you would factor affiliation with the Utah church into remarks by the others. Long story short, they're not bulletproof.
What church history should we believe? What is bulletproof!?

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