Question about garments-Ladies only please

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Bra under or over?

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Total votes: 93
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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by TrueIntent »

TrueIntent wrote: ↑September 30th, 2017, 3:03 pm I think the next question you should ask....What do does the garment mean, what do the symbols mean, what covenants are made? And do you keep these covenants? If you can't answer this off the top of your head...you don't understand the garment anyway, and you wear it to "fit in"? Knowing the symbols does not mean you made a covenant, repeating the words you say in the temple doesn't mean you made the covenant either.

The next question I would ask you, is what covenants have you made in your life with God, and Have you kept them? (this is what we would ask the gentiles as well who don't attend the temple)....Anyway...you will find that mormons and non-mormons alike have made the same covenants often times, AND received a spiritual witness of it. So are they any less worthy than us because they don't wear a garment day and night? Paul asked the same question in reference to circumcision as a practice.
Sorry...wearing it to fit in may be to harsh of a statement....you may be wearing it based on the "testimony" of others who say that it will produce certain results if you "wear it this way or that"......But if a testimony is true FOR YOU...it will produce the same results. That does not mean that it is true in all cases. You may need to wear the garment, because you don't believe in the power of the spirit it self to produce the same miracle. Joseph Smith started out using a seer stone, and then just started receiving revelation directly. Hopefully that clarifies...I don't mean to be insulting. Christ never required sacrifice....to get to a place where you believe that...you may have to sacrifice all. Then you believe. It's an interesting concept.

Cc07
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by Cc07 »

I know what the symbols of the garment are and what they mean- I also know they are one with the covenants we make in the temple. They go hand in hand. They are one in the same. I have a testimony in and of the Prophets and Apostles and I know they are mouthpieces of the Lord. So no- I do not think they are wrong on this matter. Yes- it may be "instruction" but isn't all commandments just instruction?! We are given agency to choose if we want to follow these "instructions" or not but we will have consequences for them. I think many and a lot of what you are saying is justification and procrastination. I do not wear the garment to fit in. I wear it because of the covenants I made and I will do everything in my power to keep those covenants and yes wearing the garment is part of the covenants that are made. Something's really are black and white and this is one of them!

Cc07
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by Cc07 »

And I do not appreciate you telling me to use my common sense and that I'm ignorant of truth. My feelings and beliefs on this matter are coming from Heavenly Father and Prophets and Apostles and personal study and prayer. So if you want to say that the Prophets and Apostles are wrong on this matter that is on you. But it definitely doesn't make me ignorant of truth. We are told what we are told- take it or leave it but don't tell someone else who is striving to follow the teachings and TRUTH that they are wrong.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by TrueIntent »

Cc07 wrote: ↑September 30th, 2017, 4:01 pm And I do not appreciate you telling me to use my common sense and that I'm ignorant of truth. My feelings and beliefs on this matter are coming from Heavenly Father and Prophets and Apostles and personal study and prayer. So if you want to say that the Prophets and Apostles are wrong on this matter that is on you. But it definitely doesn't make me ignorant of truth. We are told what we are told- take it or leave it but don't tell someone else who is striving to follow the teachings and TRUTH that they are wrong.
My feelings and understanding also comes from heavenly father, prophets and apostles, and the scriptures.. and trust me...deep prayer. I don't take my seeking for and answer to any of this lightly. I was speaking in general about membership and the common sense comment, not necessarily to you unless you feel like you fit that category. Members should use common sense. You were the one who claimed that the wearing of the garment had never been changed. So yes, you were ignorant of that truth...Is it okay to correct someone when they are in error?. You can believe what you want...but now you have the information. This is what the forum is for. To freely debate and discuss...hopefully so that we can be aware of higher truth. and Yes, It is on me to claim they (prophets and apostles are wrong on this issue, but they have been right one many others). They are men--who yes, are leading the church. But they are men-who are flesh and will err in understanding. Christ was the restorer of truth...NOT US. And the church moves slower than those who are willing to seek and ask questions on their own (my bishop and stake president gave me that example about the slow moving ship when I first came to them with some of this information...what do you say about that?)

I love the church...I was born in the church, but if I had to start all over and choose one, it would still be this one. Trust me, I don't have all the answers...i would like for someone to give me new information that I haven't studied on these topics. Most people haven't truly studied. Most people just regurgitate what they have been told...which is fine for a time.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

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Cc07 wrote: ↑September 30th, 2017, 3:55 pm I know what the symbols of the garment are and what they mean- I also know they are one with the covenants we make in the temple. They go hand in hand. They are one in the same. I have a testimony in and of the Prophets and Apostles and I know they are mouthpieces of the Lord. So no- I do not think they are wrong on this matter. Yes- it may be "instruction" but isn't all commandments just instruction?! We are given agency to choose if we want to follow these "instructions" or not but we will have consequences for them. I think many and a lot of what you are saying is justification and procrastination. I do not wear the garment to fit in. I wear it because of the covenants I made and I will do everything in my power to keep those covenants and yes wearing the garment is part of the covenants that are made. Something's really are black and white and this is one of them!

Youre right...we do have agency. Yes, commandments are instructions. HOWEVER, all commandments are clearly spelled out in scripture (by the mouth of two or three witnesses)--the wearing of the garment according to the handbook is not a commandment...even the temple ordinances are altered based on what our scriptural understanding is...why do you think we no longer "slit our throats" in a blood oath in the temple. Brigham "corrected" the ordinances as far as he correctly understood them. You should study Christ's criticisms of the pharisees and how they wore their phylacteries and tellifin.

It's fine for you to do what you want...but you can't judge others by that same standard (which is what you are doing when you post instruction from the brethren)...they are supposed to administer the law..period, they are not enforcers. I like the phrase, don't judge me just because you sin differently than i do....Adding to that, I think one of the sins in mormonism, is that we accuse others of sinning where there is no sin in the first place simply because we follow "handbook guidelines" differently than they do. NO ONE wears the garment night and day, or according to the handbook. NO ONE...gets their garments back on as quickly as they can before they get home from swimming, you just interpret that YOUR way is okay, and someone else isn't....Do you run into a bathroom, or pullover at the first gas station to change into your garments...NOPE...you can't judge others for not following the handbook, while not doing it yourself. The flaw in the law, as the apostle paul taught...NO ONE keeps the law. Christ taught this. So as you post instructions from the brethren...make sure you follow it completely within your power and understanding of it. Im not telling anyone to not wear the garment...im just saying it's not necessary....christ says, that he does not require sacrifice. His is a gospel of faith and action...not sacrifice

The pharisees had "oral tradition" which was their own interpretations that they added to the laws-- which is why the Jews couldn't recognize Christ when he came. His own people couldn't recognize him because they worshiped culture. You should study oral tradition.....it is the pharisees leaders who interpreted the meaning of the commandments and the law. Christ then came, and corrected them all. The people got lost in culture vs scripture. I don't care what you personally believe or what you do, but if you will study...you will find that a mouth piece does not mean blind followers. Joseph smith and Brigham young criticized blind following of the membership. The truth is...we are all supposed to be seeking personal revelation on all the things we are taught. Most people are afraid to go against the grain.

In the last two years, the church has changed position heavily on many topics. The word of wisdom had been a hard fast rule since I was born. Then the truth comes out linked with scripture "not by commandment or constraint"....then, on LDSliving in the last month, there was an article that stated that much of what is in the word of wisdom is left up to individual interpretation (while also still trying to justify why we micro-manage). So, i have seen the dangers of substance abuse, alcohol etc...but you can't keep people out of the temple for that, and not be acting in hypocrisy for those who are addicted to sugar and are morbidly obese. All of us has weaknesses, the church just picks and chooses by outward judging what weaknesses we are willing to tolerate. Which is why, if we truly believe principles and interpretation is left up to the individual...then it should be left up to the individual. Does an individual feel worthy? it is not meet that HE should command in all things.

There is a point behind all the stuff we do....we should find it. Find the "mark".

1 For the alaw having a bshadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered cyear by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.


10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

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At the end of the day, I know why I believe what I believe.....and you claim the same thing also....But will you love me and respect me as a follower of Jesus christ equally with you, even though we believe differently? Im speaking collectively....can you accept others fully who will interpret things differently than you based on their own understanding. I accept yours...and I accept you are doing your best. Will you accept that I am doing my best and accept me as your equal?

Cc07
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by Cc07 »

I absolutely accept you as my equal- I'm not judging those who don't wear their garments as to how it's given in the instruction of how to wear them. If you feel comfortable saying the Prophets and Apostles are wrong on this issue than that's on you. I believe in continuing revelation and progression and I'm going to follow their advice and council on this matter as I believe they speak for the Lord! Obviously we know we can't wear them all the time as circumstances don't allow it. But other than that it's pretty black and white as to how we should wear them and ultimately it's a recommend question and if you feel like you can answer that question truthfully is up to the individual. I know many women who aren't wearing them and they ultimately say they aren't because they don't want to and they own up to it it that they just don't want to. And I give them mad respect for owning up to it rather than justify their reasonings. If everyone understood the significance of wearing the garment I believe people would take it more seriously and wear them! ✌🏻

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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

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Cc07 wrote: ↑September 30th, 2017, 5:27 pm I absolutely accept you as my equal- I'm not judging those who don't wear their garments as to how it's given in the instruction of how to wear them. If you feel comfortable saying the Prophets and Apostles are wrong on this issue than that's on you. I believe in continuing revelation and progression and I'm going to follow their advice and council on this matter as I believe they speak for the Lord! Obviously we know we can't wear them all the time as circumstances don't allow it. But other than that it's pretty black and white as to how we should wear them and ultimately it's a recommend question and if you feel like you can answer that question truthfully is up to the individual. I know many women who aren't wearing them and they ultimately say they aren't because they don't want to and they own up to it it that they just don't want to. And I give them mad respect for owning up to it rather than justify their reasonings. If everyone understood the significance of wearing the garment I believe people would take it more seriously and wear them! ✌🏻
Thank you. I believe in continuing revelation as well (sometimes the leadership is informed on inconsistencies in teachings just like the rest of us find out and you will find that they leader rely heavily on historians and committees to help them interpret information) ..im hoping we change the inflexibility described in the handbook not just on the garment..but clearly label church function and policy. .We would experience less hypocrisy in the church if we built from the scriptures as an inward practice to an outward). Many teachings surrounding the garment are based in teachings on modesty. We equate modesty with chastity, however modesty IS defined by culture, and Chastity is defined by god. It is not immodest for a woman to wear sleeveless clothing or shorts above the knee in our culture..as well as for the men. Its cultural. Remember, when Moroni first appeared to Joseph Smith he was completely naked with an open robe. We can label ourselves, but we shouldn't label others. Cultural teachings are fine as long as we label them as cultural teachings...nor should these teachings reflect whether or not someone should enter the temple.

I am fully aware of how many members bend and break the rules...as I communicate openly why I am not wearing mine day and night because people ask me (I wear tank tops)..people are curious...everyone reveals they don't either ...they don't do it because "they don't think it's a big deal", and Im told not to take things so seriously (the person wearing the tank top gets told not to take it so literally in the handbooks and documents).

...so for me....the more I took to studying the garment and ordinances...I began believing differently...but it wasn't because the teachings didn't exist..it was because culture had hidden the truth and you had to dig to find it. The internet has brought everything to the surface for discussion.

I wish we would all be open about what we believe and why we believe it and WHY someone should devote their life to wearing something day and night instead of (is not secret its sacred, but we can't say why). The reason this topic tends to bother me personally is because I get judged for what I believe frequently, while others do it in secret and based on their beliefs...they lie in the temple and defile it...based on mine i keep it holy, but Im not bending any rules, but I also don't have a temple recommend at the moment. Im not trying to bend rules...Im good at following rules..what I am not good at is doing things I don't believe in.

...Im open to discussion, but I have read everything the church has put out on the issue...including the common phrase of "it's an outward expression of an inward commitment"...that does not answer WHY doctrinally or scripturally one must follow the handbook to enter the temple. AND nobody goes through the temple the first time and makes those covenants that day having never heard them until that moment. We repeat it, but it doesnt mean we made the covenant. We wear the garment day and night, but it doesn't mean we actually "wear" the real garment...nor is it required. The teachings related to circumscion in the new testament are very similar to this issue. These are symbols. Is there somewhere in scripture that I am missing that the High Priesthood will require a special physical clothing and that their priesthood won't work without their special clothing????? There is a symbolic clothing... But physical?

..if that is a true statement, then we should be judging everyone by their outward expressions.....I just dont believe thats entirely true. We have a lot of sometimes true things that we claim are all true. Maybe under the Law of Moses, but not Under the Law of Christ. I believe in the teaching of symbolic ordinances...but not as an outward manifestation of worthiness based on works...I believe this because of the scriptures and because of the witnesses I have received that match up with this. HOWEVER....it took me practicing heavily on my works to realize my works would not save me, and that nothing i could do of myself saves me. There is purpose in it all. An interesting story in the New Testament, is where Paul gets kicked out of the temple by the Jews, they want him to get hauled off by the Romans for not be "worthy" because of his non-practice of the law to enter the temple. But then he bears his testimony, which in spirit, is similar to mine......and Yet...they still cast him out.

...as Ive sought to ask why myself, I don't wear it day and night, but not because of laziness or because I break rules...it's because the teaching conflicts with my conscience. I don't believe in outward works like I once did as a representation of my faithfulness to God. ...it was once i dropped the practice of believing that "what I did in the form of a works" defined my worthiness with God was that I started receiving my own witnesses (so maybe the church requires worthiness standards that God doesnt, and this may be the case).

I have adopted an experimentation of Faith first, then followed by acting on that faith, that I received my own witness (and I wasn't even asking for them, I was just following the spirit in those moments I made the covenants). Anyway...i started comprehended things I never had before after that. I am more than happy to change my position, if someone has better instruction. I learn best from the scripture combined with early church teachings on the subject after praying, pondering and asking. We don't teach from the scriptures very much any more at church...We teach frequently from conference talks..which maybe good for the general membership, but it doesnt answer my questions. Im trying to understand why we contradict scripture.

Cc07
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by Cc07 »

I think it's great you are open to and willing to discuss your reasonings behind not wearing the garment. You keep referencing and talking about scripture which is great but it was before the restoration of the fullness of the gospel. As much as I believe in teachings of past prophets- clear back to Adam. We need to rely also on the teachings of our current prophet for he is the one who is receiving current revelation from the Lord. Their are also the Apostles and they have most recently talked about they way they decide on update policy and I'm referring to the decision of kids being raised in homosexual relations can't get baptized until they are 18- but they've talked about how they all prayed about the decision and what the Lord would have them do and they all came to the same conclusion. It's because Apostles are also Prophets. I'm not concerned with what they did concerning the garment in biblical times nor am I concerned with how they did 100 years ago- what matters is what the Lord wants us to do NOW. That's where the faith comes in that you are talking about. We may not know exactly why it is that we need to wear them the way they've asked. But I personally think it's a blessing for us. Just like paying tithing, or good works, or keeping the word of wisdom. Or any other thing that if you follow their are blessings involved. They're also a reminder of the covenants we've made. Do I think sleeveless Tops and short above the knee are immodest- no I do not. Am I saying I wouldn't ever want to wear that- no I'm not. But I wear the garment having faith that it's what the Lord has asked and I made a covenant with Him that I would. Do I fully understand everything- no. But something's we aren't going to receive the answer right now. And yes even that answer of it's an outward expression of an inward commitment is enough for me. I have a definite testimony of this and I hope someday you can get an answer of why it is we are asked to wear them and I truly hope you can get your temple recommend renewed and enjoy the blessings that come from attending the temple!

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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

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Cc07 wrote: ↑September 30th, 2017, 8:22 pm I think it's great you are open to and willing to discuss your reasonings behind not wearing the garment. You keep referencing and talking about scripture which is great but it was before the restoration of the fullness of the gospel. As much as I believe in teachings of past prophets- clear back to Adam. We need to rely also on the teachings of our current prophet for he is the one who is receiving current revelation from the Lord. Their are also the Apostles and they have most recently talked about they way they decide on update policy and I'm referring to the decision of kids being raised in homosexual relations can't get baptized until they are 18- but they've talked about how they all prayed about the decision and what the Lord would have them do and they all came to the same conclusion. It's because Apostles are also Prophets. I'm not concerned with what they did concerning the garment in biblical times nor am I concerned with how they did 100 years ago- what matters is what the Lord wants us to do NOW. That's where the faith comes in that you are talking about. We may not know exactly why it is that we need to wear them the way they've asked. But I personally think it's a blessing for us. Just like paying tithing, or good works, or keeping the word of wisdom. Or any other thing that if you follow their are blessings involved. They're also a reminder of the covenants we've made. Do I think sleeveless Tops and short above the knee are immodest- no I do not. Am I saying I wouldn't ever want to wear that- no I'm not. But I wear the garment having faith that it's what the Lord has asked and I made a covenant with Him that I would. Do I fully understand everything- no. But something's we aren't going to receive the answer right now. And yes even that answer of it's an outward expression of an inward commitment is enough for me. I have a definite testimony of this and I hope someday you can get an answer of why it is we are asked to wear them and I truly hope you can get your temple recommend renewed and enjoy the blessings that come from attending the temple!
Thank you, I appreciate that. I don't think I agree with the statement that current prophets supersede old teachings. What I have found is that the teachings in the early church do not contradict the new testament....it's our additions to them that do. We contradict Jesus Christ's teachings....otherwise we have no need for the book of mormon or the new testament or the old--we could just follow modern day revelation. But that is not true. This is how joseph smith knew to ask God in the first place--by studying the bible...he said they had many interpretations for the same scripture, which we also have done in our own church.

The book of mormon is a third witness that clarifies what it all meant in the first place. I don't think it's possible to make a covenant with the Lord unless you fully know what you are doing it for......What Im trying to say, is that I received a spiritual witness when I actually made the covenant. You know when you've made a covenant, and you know why....recieving an ordinance is just receiving instruction on HOW to make the covenant. Meaning if you don't understand...you should ask...because you probably haven't actually made the covenant. You just repeated a bunch of words and raised your arm to the square. Im not saying you have to understand the ordinances in full....what Im saying is....I KNOW without a doubt the moment in prayer and in my life I made those covenants (and the ceremony just paralleled my desire to do so...it told me I was on the path)...and it wasn't all on the same day in the temple. Each experience was an emotionally outpouring of my soul, and I received a witness...like when enos prayed all night long. I couldn't have had the same raw emotional state in the actually ceremony itself for me. I meant it when I made it.

You should be concerned with how they wore the garment in biblical times, and even how they paid tithes...Josephs smith was "RESTORING" the gospel of Jesus christ....this is the same Gospel the Children of Israel Practice in the old testament (they performed ordinances) up until Jesus hits the scene when they are supposed to accept Him...he is the living symbol. Its a restoration of all things...not a creation of new things or a new gospel that supersedes an old. Testament means "covenant" Old testament, New testament, the book of mormon is another testament...or covenant.

You are confusing policy with commandments/qualifications that allow an individual to exercise the power of the holy priesthood and commune with God directly...Why do you think we stand at the veil, holding the hand of god, and then....the veil parts and we enter into his presence. You are practicing a version of the temple ceremony, and a garment that Joseph Smith restored....of course it matters. This is what Moses was teaching...how to part the veil and speak with God face to face. This is the part that I don't understand...Why don't members want to know????? We claim the power of the HOLY Priesthood...THE power to raise the dead, Heal the sick, and the power to resurrect, and we don't want to understand what the symbols mean and WHY we do what we do...we don't want to separate fact from fiction, culture from scripture???? I for one, if this power is real, want to understand it and access it...I want to believe in it with all my heart. I want to heal the sick, raise the dead, and let the resurrection begin so we can reunite with those we lost.

I don't think you understand the pattern of the gospel in scripture...there were men of renown..."Noble and great ones"...Adam , moses, Abraham Issac...jsoeph smith was compared to a moses....and jesus Christ...they were all practicing the same gospel. We don't practice a different gospel than them...or a higher one than them. It's the same...Jesus Christ just explained what all the laws and ordinances meant..He was the literally fulfilling of it.

The scriptures just communicate the path men like ADAM took to finding it, trust me...modern day prophets are not greater than Noah or Moses...only Joseph Smith was compared to Moses, but current leaders greater than Adam our father?? No. ....some men sinned along the way. As did Adam and Eve. Faith isn't having faith in men....its being willing to experiment on the word. The Word IS jesus christ in the flesh (according to scripture). So, sure....get a testimony of whatever you need to, but one has to be willing to experiment on their own at some point. The path to God is individual...which is why we all walk through the temple ceremony, into the celestial room.

Thats true for you about just believing without asking...I believe for most members they don't need to know why they do something (that is not necessarily a good thing, but if it makes you happy then do it). But Joseph didn't know something and so He asked. The ordinances teach something that allows an individual to access real power from heaven...the HOLY Priesthood. People feel safe following other people until they follow council that hinders their progression in some way, or they have their trust violated. So, then you are faced with...maybe I should ask God myself.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

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I want to clarify....Most of what we teach is good...but it's very generic, and can be learned from most Christian mainstream churches . The temple ceremony and the clarity of the Book of Mormon is what separates mormons from the rest of the world. It is supposed to give one access to the Holy Priesthood. So greater levels of knowledge require a greater level of faith. Im experimental on this, but it's not because I don't believe...it's because I do. I study these things because it matters to me....Isaiah foretells of the "last days"...the body of his church comes forth. These things matter because we have a mission to do. The church is supposed to lead the church. I have to be honest...I hate when people say there are some things we are not meant to understand....this contradicts the entire mission of Joseph Smith...then why don't we ask. Doesnt God still answer?

Cc07
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

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Why are you so bent on that current Prophets and Apostles are just men and therefore can confuse and not get it right on the things the Lord would have us do- but are constantly referring to past Prophets? They were just men as well..................................... πŸ€” The Church of Jesus Christ is either true or it's not. If it is true then everything about it is true- no short cuts, no maybe this part is right but this part isn't right. You either take it all or you don't. Yes- gain your own testimony of these things. I don't expect anyone to ever blindly follow and ride coat tails. I guess that is why this is something I don't back down from because I have asked for myself and I do know for myself and I'm passionate about it because I understand the truth. If we were to be told every little thing- that is what Satans plan was. It leaves us without finding out for ourselves and the idea of faith. Other religions teach about past biblical prophets too- but if you have a knowledge that this is the true church then you also have a knowledge that God is speaking to our current prophets and Apostles and therefore what they say is truth and what they ask of us is what God is asking of us. I don't know what more I can say about it. To me it's very black and white. It either is or it isn't and theirs not parts of it is true but parts of it aren't. I don't believe that God would give anyone revelation that is contrary to what the Prophets and Apostles are teaching. I wish you all the best!

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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by TrueIntent »

Cc07 wrote: ↑October 1st, 2017, 12:21 pm Why are you so bent on that current Prophets and Apostles are just men and therefore can confuse and not get it right on the things the Lord would have us do- but are constantly referring to past Prophets? They were just men as well..................................... πŸ€” The Church of Jesus Christ is either true or it's not. If it is true then everything about it is true- no short cuts, no maybe this part is right but this part isn't right. You either take it all or you don't. Yes- gain your own testimony of these things. I don't expect anyone to ever blindly follow and ride coat tails. I guess that is why this is something I don't back down from because I have asked for myself and I do know for myself and I'm passionate about it because I understand the truth. If we were to be told every little thing- that is what Satans plan was. It leaves us without finding out for ourselves and the idea of faith. Other religions teach about past biblical prophets too- but if you have a knowledge that this is the true church then you also have a knowledge that God is speaking to our current prophets and Apostles and therefore what they say is truth and what they ask of us is what God is asking of us. I don't know what more I can say about it. To me it's very black and white. It either is or it isn't and theirs not parts of it is true but parts of it aren't. I don't believe that God would give anyone revelation that is contrary to what the Prophets and Apostles are teaching. I wish you all the best!
The Church of Jesus Christ (His Church)....IS TRUE....Our church is run by men...like you said. You're the one contradicting yourself. He's working with mortals....they will err. this is my problem...your speaking out of both sides of your mouth and you don't realize it. Not everything we have taught is true...not everything the general authorities teach is true. It is revelation of which they interpret based on their own understanding...which is based on their understanding at the time....which is also based on where they are spiritually at the time.

Just because someone has a calling in the church, doesn't mean they are spiritually at the level the calling requires (hence the area seventy getting excommunicated...and also, other apostle who were excommunicated...look at Judas..Wheat and tares go all the way to the top in the scriptures...ALWAYS). They are men. It's all over early church history..men apostatizing or being reprimanded for Pride....but you believe what they says is truth and that they always speak for God. That is not true. But I do think the bulk of what the church teaches is good.

Jesus Christ speaks truth....they attempt based on their level of spirituality to interpret the teachings of Christ--and we as membership are supposed to listen, but not follow blindly--the membership used to vote on these issues collectedly before they were adopted....we are supposed to hold our leaders accountable...even in the book of mormon we are taught that the people direct the church and sometimes which is sometimes why they fell into wickedness, but we are also told not to elect kings. The temple ceremony was designed to teach all of us how to communicate with God directly. That's what moses was trying to teach the children of Israel. You should study the scriptures and see if the blanket statement you makes is true......

"if you have a knowledge that this is the true church then you also have a knowledge that God is speaking to our current prophets and Apostles and therefore what they say is truth and what they ask of us is what God is asking of us. . I don't believe that God would give anyone revelation that is contrary to what the Prophets and Apostles are teaching."


The is such an incorrect statement on so many levels...but alas...it is what I used to believe myself. Before my father died...he said to me "things are not as black and white as you think they are"....and he was right. Are you familiar with early church leaders teachings on blacks as descendants of cain, and the "polygamy saved men from the woes of prostitution"....george q. cannon taught that....he was an apostle....of course an individual can receive revelation that declares these teachings as false...otherwise we would not be free agents. We would be subject to men, and their incorrect understandings (how do you think Joseph got his...by going to God instead of preachers who claimed to have more spiritual knowledge). I think the biggest issues right now in the church are statements like you made above...because not everything the church teaches will exalt them...some of these teachings will hinder individuals...BECAUSE...we are supposed to be learning from the church how to receive revelation directly from the Lord himself...this is what the temple ceremony teaches.

Finally, I would like to add that the definition of a prophet in scripture, and the definition of a Prophet in the early church, is different than how we culturally define a prophet. Im not dissing these men....but I, like Adam in the temple video, refuse to believe everything I am taught....Adam receives tokens and signs after that (read what a token and sign is in scripture...I'll give you a hint...its not a handshake, the handshake is merely a symbol)...the church does contain the ordinances right now that reveal how revelation is to be received so one does not fall into midst of darkness. I know you don't understand what Im saying...the first step for you will be willing to accept that maybe what Im saying is true, and pray about it. But prayers only work if you SINCERELY desire to know if what I am saying is true....it must be done with real intent. I also wish you the best...it was a good little debate we had going here. Thanks for the conversation.

Cc07
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by Cc07 »

Adam didn't refuse to be taught though from the Apostles- he knew they were messengers from God. And he specifically says to follow their council.
I guess the same goes for you- sincerely pray to know if what I'm saying is true....
I didn't say that the Prophets and Apostles were just men. I was referencing that you say they are just men and if that's the case all past Prophets and Apostles are just "men." Therefore, you always talking about past Prophets and Apostles and the way they did things in biblical times ect... is moot because you say the current prophet and Apostles are just men that confuse the doctrine of Christ so that could mean all prophets confuse the doctrine of Christ so you need to stop referencing the way they did things with past prophets because they would be just "men" too. Which I was saying their doctrine could be confused too. So you can't put them and their teachings on a higher pedastool.
I know they are men, but I believe them to be men called of God and who are the spokesmen for God. I want to be worth to enter the temple of God- and to do so I have to be worthy to answer the temple recommend question of if I wear my garments night and day like given to me in the instruction when I received them. It either is or it isn't..... for me it is.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by TrueIntent »

Cc07 wrote: ↑October 3rd, 2017, 12:19 am Adam didn't refuse to be taught though from the Apostles- he knew they were messengers from God. And he specifically says to follow their council.
I guess the same goes for you- sincerely pray to know if what I'm saying is true....
I didn't say that the Prophets and Apostles were just men. I was referencing that you say they are just men and if that's the case all past Prophets and Apostles are just "men." Therefore, you always talking about past Prophets and Apostles and the way they did things in biblical times ect... is moot because you say the current prophet and Apostles are just men that confuse the doctrine of Christ so that could mean all prophets confuse the doctrine of Christ so you need to stop referencing the way they did things with past prophets because they would be just "men" too. Which I was saying their doctrine could be confused too. So you can't put them and their teachings on a higher pedastool.
I know they are men, but I believe them to be men called of God and who are the spokesmen for God. I want to be worth to enter the temple of God- and to do so I have to be worthy to answer the temple recommend question of if I wear my garments night and day like given to me in the instruction when I received them. It either is or it isn't..... for me it is.
Yeah but there was a token and sign that was exchanged between them. just because someone claims they are an apostle doesnt mean they are...do you remember the old temple video where satan is whispering in the preachers ear....you have to "Try your messenger".....there is an exchange of tokens and signs (this is symbolic)....how do you know you aren't following Judas or and AntiChrist....judas was one of the twelve....Trust me...if this is the church the Lord has set up for the last days...what makes you think satan is lurking and infiltrating it. The moment you stop "trying and questioning the messengers" is the moment Satan enters in. Satans plan was blind obedience....Christ was to follow him...imperfectly, and use his grace for where we fail.


Remember...He was "looking for messengers"....and an apostle appeared...he wasn't looking for an apostle or someone who claimed to be...or even a preacher. Messengers that exchanged tokens with him...thats important

Cc07
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by Cc07 »

Well I'm 100% sure that I'm following truth on this matter.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by TrueIntent »

Cc07 wrote: ↑October 3rd, 2017, 2:38 pm Well I'm 100% sure that I'm following truth on this matter.
So WAS I. When I believED like you DO. Touche.

tdj
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by tdj »

My issue with the garments is with the frustration that womens biology isn't really taken into account like the mens are. The mens garments has the opening i the front where men can more easily use the restroom and whatnot. Women's garments have no such allowances for their monthly cycles. There are plenty of menstrual underwear ideas out these days that could very easily and cheaply be incorporated into womens underwear. Like pockets to hold the pads, semi sewn re enforced gusset to fit pads with wings, or extra layers that are specifially designed to absorb mild leaks. The problem is, is that women have been taught for so long that we can't discuss these issues with men like adults, and so men and women get rather squemish at the thought of discussing these issues with each other. The leadership i the church are all men, and so unless this is brought to their attention, then not much will get done, I'm afraid. Wearing an extra pair of underwear isn't so bad in the winter, but in some of these states where the summers are blistereing, then expecting a sister to wear yet ANOTHER layer of clothing is ridiculous.

I'm a fairly new convert so please understand I'm just trying to learn here. Another question I have is if the garments are sacred, then why do they routinely and without any thought get exposed to such disgusting bodily fluids?

Crackers
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by Crackers »

tdj wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2018, 1:38 pm My issue with the garments is with the frustration that womens biology isn't really taken into account like the mens are. The mens garments has the opening i the front where men can more easily use the restroom and whatnot. Women's garments have no such allowances for their monthly cycles. There are plenty of menstrual underwear ideas out these days that could very easily and cheaply be incorporated into womens underwear. Like pockets to hold the pads, semi sewn re enforced gusset to fit pads with wings, or extra layers that are specifially designed to absorb mild leaks. The problem is, is that women have been taught for so long that we can't discuss these issues with men like adults, and so men and women get rather squemish at the thought of discussing these issues with each other. The leadership i the church are all men, and so unless this is brought to their attention, then not much will get done, I'm afraid. Wearing an extra pair of underwear isn't so bad in the winter, but in some of these states where the summers are blistereing, then expecting a sister to wear yet ANOTHER layer of clothing is ridiculous.

I'm a fairly new convert so please understand I'm just trying to learn here. Another question I have is if the garments are sacred, then why do they routinely and without any thought get exposed to such disgusting bodily fluids?
You bring up some good ideas. I know for a while at least, the church was soliciting suggestions for garment design/materials, and they seem to be putting out new stuff as they see a need. I would email your list of ideas to store.lds.org. For me, I would love to find a material that I like (I prefer the drysilk) that I can also wear pantyhose with (without them sliding off). Oh the joy....

tdj
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by tdj »

Crackers wrote: ↑January 4th, 2018, 8:51 am
tdj wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2018, 1:38 pm My issue with the garments is with the frustration that womens biology isn't really taken into account like the mens are. The mens garments has the opening i the front where men can more easily use the restroom and whatnot. Women's garments have no such allowances for their monthly cycles. There are plenty of menstrual underwear ideas out these days that could very easily and cheaply be incorporated into womens underwear. Like pockets to hold the pads, semi sewn re enforced gusset to fit pads with wings, or extra layers that are specifially designed to absorb mild leaks. The problem is, is that women have been taught for so long that we can't discuss these issues with men like adults, and so men and women get rather squemish at the thought of discussing these issues with each other. The leadership i the church are all men, and so unless this is brought to their attention, then not much will get done, I'm afraid. Wearing an extra pair of underwear isn't so bad in the winter, but in some of these states where the summers are blistereing, then expecting a sister to wear yet ANOTHER layer of clothing is ridiculous.

I'm a fairly new convert so please understand I'm just trying to learn here. Another question I have is if the garments are sacred, then why do they routinely and without any thought get exposed to such disgusting bodily fluids?
You bring up some good ideas. I know for a while at least, the church was soliciting suggestions for garment design/materials, and they seem to be putting out new stuff as they see a need. I would email your list of ideas to store.lds.org. For me, I would love to find a material that I like (I prefer the drysilk) that I can also wear pantyhose with (without them sliding off). Oh the joy....
It's not so much the material that needs to be changed to accomodate women, but the fact that there's no good way based on how the undergarment is built, to fit for menstrual issues. At least nothing like regular underwear. As fa as the material, yes the church has reached out asking for suggestions, but that's of little use when it comes to menstruation needs. I've discovered already that there are certain materials you want to wear for certain times of the year. That stretchy, form fitting material like what they make for yoga pants, is the absolute WORST you can wear in the summer, especially in my state where it's super humid. But this is the first winter I've worn the garments, and I have noticed I'm not as cold as I have been in the past. The summer was cooler then normal, so when summer comes back to being in the triple digits, then I'll find out if I can handle wearing so much clothing. If I can't bear it, then I think I may just have to not wear them during some of the hotter months. Fortunately, that is only in July and August. When we came back from our vacation in August, we had our air conditioning turned off, so it was hot and uncomfortable for pretty much that whole evening in our house. I TRIED to endure it, but I finally had to give in and take them off. It was just too unbearable wearing more then one layer of clothing like that.

Lisasnyder
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by Lisasnyder »

If i needed to wear depends is it right to wear under my garments ,I have had a strggle with this,due to the fact of my epilepsy i tend to have a weaker bkadder. WHAT TO DO?

tdj
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by tdj »

momto5 wrote: ↑January 4th, 2011, 4:58 pm
natasha wrote:As everyone has said, you wear your garments next to your skin. By the way, they have garments specially for nursing mothers that should solve that problem.
I used those for the first few kids. It was very hard trying to be discreet in the Mother's Lounge since it took two hands to pull my self back together and make sure everything was in the right place. Although with the nursing pads I use now probably wouldn't be so difficult. Question, if the garment has to always be right up against the skin no matter what what do you do for that time of the month? Would that be the only instance where the garment being secondary would be allowed? I'm not trying to stir the pot just getting ideas, thoughts.
I've heard of the maternity tops and based on what I saw of them, they don't look like they would really do the trick. But I've never used them, so someone would have to ask those who HAVE used them.
Why is it necessary to be discreet in the mothers lounge? It's a place just for women to do that sort of stuff so it's expected that, well, things might need to come out.

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evejaa
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by evejaa »

Sisters!!!!
You have made a mountain out of a mole hill!
Bra and underwear can NOW be woren under the garment or over, so long as marks don't show through your shirt.
When my daughter went through the temple in 2012 is was their instruction.
I had so many women doubt me, in 2017, I sat down with the temple matron and asked her...Oaker Mountain Temple...she answered you can wear either way..your choice.
End of thread

sarasmile
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by sarasmile »

The symbols are stamped on now so less chance of showing through.

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AI2.0
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by AI2.0 »

evejaa wrote: ↑March 19th, 2018, 9:42 pm Sisters!!!!
You have made a mountain out of a mole hill!
Bra and underwear can NOW be woren under the garment or over, so long as marks don't show through your shirt.
When my daughter went through the temple in 2012 is was their instruction.
I had so many women doubt me, in 2017, I sat down with the temple matron and asked her...Oaker Mountain Temple...she answered you can wear either way..your choice.
End of thread
Pretty sad isn't it. I feel very sorry for some women who make their lives miserable with so much drama over their garments.

There is no requirement that garments be worn 'against the skin'. Where did this come from? Who's been pushing these fundamentalist zealot ideas?
Why do people continue with unreasonable beliefs which defy common sense? Garments are underwear, they serve that purpose. They need to be washed, they wear out, they need mending at times, they can touch the ground...they are underwear. What's important about garments is that they represent the covenants we make in the temple--the covenants are 'sacred', the garments are fabric and have a functional purpose as underwear. Regardless of their sacred nature, Garments are still underwear and function as underwear. Underwear are going to be exposed to all kinds of bodily fluids and functions--get used to it, because that's what it means to have a functioning physical body and underwear are designed to protect clothing from those bodily fluids and excretions.

If a woman needs to use hygiene products, they are designed to protect underwear from being soiled. That means they need to be used properly and they ought to be 'against the skin'--between the body and the garment. That's their purpose. You might as well not use them if you are not wearing them properly.

Garments are designed to help us be modest and it's common sense that we should not wear them in such a way that the marks are visible. If they are, then wear a camisole or something to keep them from showing through. You can wear your bra under or over the garment top--whichever is your personal preference. You can wear additional underwear under your garments to hold sanitary napkins or pads in place, if they aren't staying properly with just the garment.

If you need to wear depends or a pad, then wear them properly, the way they are designed to be worn-- against the body--what's the point of using them if you are trying to wear them on the outside of the garment? Seriously, there's no point to spend the money. Depends are designed to protect your clothing and undergarments, if you don't put them against your body, they can't do the job they were designed to do. Garments are undergarments--they are underwear. We, LDS are not fundamentalists or unreasonable zealots who want to make women's lives miserable. Wear these products properly as they are designed to protect our underwear(garments) and clothing.

They make nursing garment tops, which are easier to use with a nursing bra, but if you don't want to buy them, simply pull up your garment top or pull it down (if you are smaller breasted) and stop fretting. The purpose of the mother's lounge is to allow women privacy, where they can nurse in private and not worry that they might flash some breast. They shouldn't be fretting about being 'discreet' in the lounge, unless they are uncomfortable with other women seeing them. If they have that problem, then they can always throw a blanket over themselves for added privacy. But, frankly, why bother. As I said, that's the whole point of providing a mother's lounge. It is meant to be a convenience.

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