husband trying to recover from porn addiction

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Sunain
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by Sunain »

Damaged Goods: Perception of Pornography Addiction as a Mediator Between Religiosity and Relationship Anxiety Surrounding Pornography Use
Nathan D. Leonhardt, Brian J. Willoughby & Bonnie Young-Petersen
Recent research on pornography suggests that perception of addiction predicts negative outcomes above and beyond pornography use. Research has also suggested that religious individuals are more likely to perceive themselves to be addicted to pornography, regardless of how often they are actually using pornography. Using a sample of 686 unmarried adults, this study reconciles and expands on previous research by testing perceived addiction to pornography as a mediator between religiosity and relationship anxiety surrounding pornography. Results revealed that pornography use and religiosity were weakly associated with higher relationship anxiety surrounding pornography use, whereas perception of pornography addiction was highly associated with relationship anxiety surrounding pornography use. However, when perception of pornography addiction was inserted as a mediator in a structural equation model, pornography use had a small indirect effect on relationship anxiety surrounding pornography use, and perception of pornography addiction partially mediated the association between religiosity and relationship anxiety surrounding pornography use. By understanding how pornography use, religiosity, and perceived pornography addiction connect to relationship anxiety surrounding pornography use in the early relationship formation stages, we hope to improve the chances of couples successfully addressing the subject of pornography and mitigate difficulties in romantic relationships.
Religious Conflict Makes Porn Bad for Relationships
It's actually religion and identity as a porn addict that hurts people, not porn
Posted Apr 17, 2017

New research from Brigham Young University examines the role of pornography use, self-perceived “addiction” to pornography, and religion on relationship anxiety. The results were surprising, and confirmed a building school of research which indicates that the effects of pornography on individuals vary based on moral and religious beliefs, and that seeing oneself as addicted to porn is far more damaging than actually using pornography.

Leonhardt, Willoughby, and Young-Petersen did a large, cross-sectional survey of 686 single adults, using the MTurk system. They were investigating what effects pornography use — and the belief that one was addicted to pornography — had on an individual’s relationship anxiety. A major component of the research was exploring the “Damaged Goods Hypothesis," as it relates to porn use. The Damaged Goods Hypothesis is the theory that some people come to view themselves as deficient, immoral, or tainted, often as a result of sexual behaviors, or after being victims of rape or sexual abuse. As a result of viewing themselves that way, a “damaged” person isolates themselves from the social supports and personal engagement which would actually counteract these negative self-perceptions. It becomes a scary, sad, and circular self-fulfilling prophecy.

Relationship anxiety predicts less satisfactory relationships, as a person essentially makes relationships fail by believing they are doomed, and that the other person will always eventually reject them once they learn about the deep, dark secret that turned them into “damaged goods.” Out of fear of rejection, many people keep their pornography use secret, particularly when they are from religious, and especially Christian, communities or backgrounds.

That religious, conservative background leads people to overestimate the harm and shame attached to pornography use, and to experience greater distress related to porn use, which they label as an “addiction.” One study at a Christian college found that 60 percent of Christian males seeking help for porn-related problems viewed themselves as addicted to pornography, although only 5 percent of those men met any of the criteria related to addictive disorders. Recent research has found that belief in oneself as a pornography addict is predicted by religious values, and not by porn use, and that this perception of oneself as addicted predicts negative emotional outcomes, while actual porn use does not.

The BYU study found further results which support the idea that it’s not porn use, but rather the belief in porn addiction and the conflict with religion, which predict porn-related problems. In this study, they found that:

* Perception of pornography addiction is more important than actual pornography use in predicting many outcomes, and that the level of religious belief was especially important in predicting negative outcomes from porn use. What's fascinating is that already several critiques of this study's findings have been published online, coming from people who promote the porn addiction concept. Unfortunately, these people appear unwilling or unable to confront their part in spreading a damaging, harmful belief.

* People who use pornography are unlikely to experience relationship anxiety about their porn use — that is, to view themselves as damaged goods that others would reject for their porn use — unless the individual views themselves as a porn addict. So viewing yourself as a porn addict causes harm, by leading you to feel ashamed of yourself and your sexual behaviors, to be afraid of rejection and judgment, and thus to isolate yourself or end up having unsuccessful relationships, caused not by your porn use, but by your fear that you are broken and powerless over porn, and that others will and should reject you for it.

In one analysis, the researchers controlled for the effects of both religion and self-perceived porn addiction and found that, for such people, increased porn use actually decreased relationship anxiety about porn. Why? We can only speculate, and these results might be spurious, as the authors caution against over-interpreting this finding. But it might be that exposure to porn decreases the fear of it and the belief that porn is inherently bad. It also teaches one that they can self-manage their sexual feelings.

Belief in oneself being a pornography addict was a large part of the relationship between religiousness and relationship anxiety about porn. Level of religiousness predicted the likelihood that a person would see themselves as a porn addict, regardless of the amount of porn used, supporting the building argument that the concept of porn addiction is largely tied to moral and religious feelings about porn, and not to actual porn use. But in this study, even religious persons who did not view themselves as porn addicts had higher relationship anxiety about porn, while people who were not religious and didn’t feel addicted to porn didn't experience any negative outcomes from their porn use.

Take home message: If you are religious, you probably shouldn’t watch porn. It is likely to lead to you feeling that you’re addicted, and then developing shame around your identity and your porn use. That shame and anxiety is going to cause you problems in your life and in your relationships. But pornography is not a "superstimulus" that has an effect on everybody and anybody. The effects vary, by person, based on things such as their religiousness, history of porn use, history of sexuality, and relationship experience.

If you are a religious person and have already watched porn, already feel that you’re an addict, and are worried about the impact of porn on your relationship, then the way to deal with these problems has nothing to do with porn, or stopping your use. Religion is very helpful in many people's lives, bringing peace, a sense of meaning and community. Unfortunately, most religions aren't very good about sex, especially in the modern world, where porn is just a click away. Instead, the best therapeutic strategies involve reducing your shame and self-doubt, helping you to change behaviors as opposed to your identity, increasing your sense of personal self-control, examining your beliefs about sexuality and pornography, and learning how to negotiate sexual acceptance within yourself and your relationships. Treat the shame, not the porn.
It seems BYU and the church's stance on porn are a wee bit in conflict now. Telling all the priesthood brethren they are porn addicts when they actually aren't is creating high levels of anxiety. The study indicates that it's more the guilt trip and the religious stance that partners have that is the actual problem and that is the issue causing marital issues. It seems very few people actually have a porn addiction, only 5%.

Why do people go to porn? Because there is an issue in their sexual life that is unfulfilled. An underlying issue in Mormonism for years has been sexual repression. I'm not saying viewing porn is good, merely that it isn't the epidemic or major issue the church seems to be placing on it in recent years.

This study seems to also tie in with what Sister Nelson said in her talk recently to the YSA. The church might finally realize that teaching sexual repression for ages has caused more mental and marital problems than the lust sin they were trying to get people to avoid. The church seems to be placing more emphasis that sex is a spiritual bond between husband and wife rather than something that leads to unnatural and lustful consequences.

There has been way too much controversy over the years about the First Presidency message under President Kimball’s leadership. While the church's stance has greatly changed since then, there are many still alive that teach or have views similar to that message and many of the views are still a part of church culture unfortunately.

Fiannan
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by Fiannan »

It seems BYU and the church's stance on porn are a wee bit in conflict now. Telling all the priesthood brethren they are porn addicts when they actually aren't is creating high levels of anxiety. The study indicates that it's more the guilt trip and the religious stance that partners have that is the actual problem and that is the issue causing marital issues. It seems very few people actually have a porn addiction, only 5%.
I still say that if we teach that it is an issue of exploitation based on wealth and greed we might have a better chance of combating it. And yes, that porn is propaganda for lifestyles that are outside the morality of the gospel. Teaching that it is a "male thing" only feeds into the growing cultural Marxism in the Church and telling someone that occasionally looks at porn that they are addicts makes a mockery of the term addiction.

freedomforall
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by freedomforall »

Fiannan wrote: July 31st, 2017, 5:00 pm
It seems BYU and the church's stance on porn are a wee bit in conflict now. Telling all the priesthood brethren they are porn addicts when they actually aren't is creating high levels of anxiety. The study indicates that it's more the guilt trip and the religious stance that partners have that is the actual problem and that is the issue causing marital issues. It seems very few people actually have a porn addiction, only 5%.
I still say that if we teach that it is an issue of exploitation based on wealth and greed we might have a better chance of combating it. And yes, that porn is propaganda for lifestyles that are outside the morality of the gospel. Teaching that it is a "male thing" only feeds into the growing cultural Marxism in the Church and telling someone that occasionally looks at porn that they are addicts makes a mockery of the term addiction.
Isn't dragging this topic on and on also an addiction. Trying to find excuses for looking at the epidermis of another and getting all excited, having thoughts and fantasies of a sexual nature and talking incessantly about porn and sex is really a problem. Nothing like adding salt to the vinegar.
Every one of us have issues of one type or another. Each one of us has to decide if we're going to let these issues take a stronger root or seek heavenly guidance to overcome. None of us can do it on our own. For those that want to go live with Father, they must be born again and cast off the natural man in order to become a saint, holy and without spot.
Many of us have our favorite sin and look for any excuse to hang on to it. God says he will not allow sin, in the least degree, to enter into his kingdom...so this ought to send out a strong message to get rid of favorite sins.

A good way to do this is to ask oneself this question:

What do I really want, to commit this sin or the Celestial Kingdom? This gives the brain a choice and whatever we choose is apparently the real goal. God will help those that choose avoidance of sin. He does not accept wooden nickles, he wants real intent, honesty and a willing mind.

TheSpiritofTruth111
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by TheSpiritofTruth111 »

utahmomma wrote: September 4th, 2014, 10:15 pm So yeah, do any of you have any experience dealing with this kind of thing? I think it would help me if I could talk about this with someone who understands what is like. Right now I feel heart broken and I'm not really sure what I need to do to help him kick the addiction, if that's even possible.
Lust is as a program that infects many, one must overcome the feeling of mind and body to defeat it. and to do so one must realise it was not who they are and stop allowing it to control them. Once a soul realises it is not truly them they can break the hold the Devil has, this will require prayer/fasting and spiritual focus to more easily break away. By seeking to repent of it and calling on name of Yehoshua it will be done for him by the Son and the power in spirit given to him to let go and be free.

Fiannan
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by Fiannan »

“Not everyone who uses pornography willfully is addicted to it,” points out Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. “In fact, most young men and young women who struggle with pornography are not addicted. That is a very important distinction to make—not just for the parents, spouses, and leaders who desire to help but also for those who struggle with this problem.
August 2017 Ensign. https://www.lds.org/ensign/2017/08/eigh ... y?lang=eng

Seek the Truth
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by Seek the Truth »

jbalm wrote: September 5th, 2014, 5:49 am The best thing to do is exactly the opposite of what the church does--don't make a big deal about it.

"Porn addiction" is primarily a Utah phenomenon. Why do you think that is?
:)) :)) :)) :)) :))

Heck no.

Seek the Truth
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by Seek the Truth »

jsk wrote: December 9th, 2016, 8:41 am Very clever...I am a Star Wars fan.

But ultimately incorrect.

There are plenty of cases where our Heavenly Father deals in absolutes. It is absolutely wrong to commit adultery. It is absolutely wrong to commit first degree murder. It is absolutely wrong to engage in pornography. The list could go on and on.

So...your premise is incorrect.
Saying there are no absolutes is an absolute.

Fiannan
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by Fiannan »

Seek the Truth wrote: August 15th, 2017, 11:20 pm
jbalm wrote: September 5th, 2014, 5:49 am The best thing to do is exactly the opposite of what the church does--don't make a big deal about it.

"Porn addiction" is primarily a Utah phenomenon. Why do you think that is?
:)) :)) :)) :)) :))

Heck no.
Did you not read the Ensign article?

freedomforall
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by freedomforall »

Engaging in the use of pornography as a constant device for pleasure is the natural man at work. Not spiritual...not righteousness, but the natural man.

Mosiah 3:19
19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Mosiah 16:3
3 For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall; which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil.

Alma 41:11
11 And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.

But there is hope.

Ether 3:2
2 O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires.

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Hezekiah
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by Hezekiah »

Fiannan wrote: August 16th, 2017, 1:05 am
Seek the Truth wrote: August 15th, 2017, 11:20 pm
jbalm wrote: September 5th, 2014, 5:49 am The best thing to do is exactly the opposite of what the church does--don't make a big deal about it.

"Porn addiction" is primarily a Utah phenomenon. Why do you think that is?
:)) :)) :)) :)) :))

Heck no.
Did you not read the Ensign article?
Some experts have noted the similarities between sex addiction and Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. The more you try NOT to think about something, the more you obsess over it. The more you obsess over it, the greater the compulsion to act out. It's like holding a hot iron in your hand and trying to tell yourself not to think about it. Better to let go, walk away, and find something else to think about instead.

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FTC
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by FTC »

Hezekiah wrote: September 13th, 2017, 11:36 am
Fiannan wrote: August 16th, 2017, 1:05 am
Seek the Truth wrote: August 15th, 2017, 11:20 pm
jbalm wrote: September 5th, 2014, 5:49 am The best thing to do is exactly the opposite of what the church does--don't make a big deal about it.

"Porn addiction" is primarily a Utah phenomenon. Why do you think that is?
:)) :)) :)) :)) :))

Heck no.
Did you not read the Ensign article?
Some experts have noted the similarities between sex addiction and Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. The more you try NOT to think about something, the more you obsess over it. The more you obsess over it, the greater the compulsion to act out. It's like holding a hot iron in your hand and trying to tell yourself not to think about it. Better to let go, walk away, and find something else to think about instead.
This was a problem for some people that would do the sing a church hymn in your head when you started thinking bad thoughts - sure fire way to make the bad thoughts go away. Didn't work for everybody. Someone people doing this started to get sexually aroused when certain hymns would start playing at church. Because the mind associated sexual arousal with that sound (hymn). Turned into a nasty snowball effect.

Outside of mormondom, some people would get aroused just by hearing the sound of a dial-up modem ringing. Because the mind made the connection that the dial-up ring tone was going to lead to sexual things right after.

Fiannan
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by Fiannan »

This was a problem for some people that would do the sing a church hymn in your head when you started thinking bad thoughts
Great example of classical conditioning. I heard of cases where when a person would get the urge to do something naughty they would grab the scriptures and read them. Problem is they would start thinkiing about those actions when they picked up their scriptures even in Church.

Pavlov would understand.

Gage
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by Gage »

Just tell yourself over and over "Do I really want to let these naughty females in these porn videos condemn my soul? And then go take a cold shower and then watch cartoons.

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LukeAir2008
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by LukeAir2008 »

What the evangelicals are saying about those who use pornography..

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skmo
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by skmo »

Fiannan wrote: September 18th, 2017, 9:28 am Pavlov would understand.
It would probably ring a bell for his dogs, as well.

SaidNobody
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by SaidNobody »

Looks like I missed some good discussion.

There is a great audio series called "the butterfly effect."

This isn't just one person's problem.

Statistically, testosterone levels have recently begun falling in American males. Teenage pregnancy is down. Some think it's both because of free, streaming porn. Boys and girls are less likely to seek each other out. Husbands and wives are less like struggle through the awkward emotional conflicts.

This is becoming a national heath crisis.

Fiannan
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by Fiannan »

SaidNobody wrote: October 7th, 2017, 2:44 pm Looks like I missed some good discussion.

There is a great audio series called "the butterfly effect."

This isn't just one person's problem.

Statistically, testosterone levels have recently begun falling in American males. Teenage pregnancy is down. Some think it's both because of free, streaming porn. Boys and girls are less likely to seek each other out. Husbands and wives are less like struggle through the awkward emotional conflicts.

This is becoming a national heath crisis.
Actually viewing porn may be an attempt at the subconscious level to boost testosterone as even thinking of sex increases testosterone for both males and females. And before anyone attempts to say this is a justification for porn viewing it isn't, any more than saying if a person is thirsty and is given the opportunity to drink a pitcher of beer that drinking that beer is a good moral choice.

I would think that testosterone levels are down due to obesity, stress, self-loathing and guilt, lack of high impact exercise, low-protein diets (vegans for example), our quest to get rid of competitive attitudes in males in particular, drinking alcohol and smoking. Modern life and lifestyles are castrating men. It is part of a design in my opinion to crash the birthrate.

SaidNobody
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by SaidNobody »

Fiannan wrote: October 8th, 2017, 1:31 am Actually viewing porn may be an attempt at the subconscious level to boost testosterone as even thinking of sex increases testosterone for both males and females.
I might have agreed with this once, but I get the impression the drop is connected to the porn.

I wish I knew of other studies on the matter.

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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by Lilliancc »

Essential oils can cure his addiction.oregano and black pepper on first. Apply to spine. Then lemongrass on top. It actually works. Its amazing. Buy quality oils such as rocky mountain oils. Young living or doterra. It does actually work

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Thinker
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by Thinker »

One way of helping someone get over an addiction is to NOT shame them about it. Women who are shaming and blaming your husbands, try to imagine how YOU would feel if he reacted the same way about your weaknesses.

Imagine if the addiction was food.
And the topic was:

Wife trying to recover from junk-food addiction
  • Satan is gery good at convincing people junk-food addiction is harmless - but the facts show that heart disease (which obesity is related to) is the #1 killer in the US!!
    Husband feels heartbroken because wife turns to food more than to him.
    Many people don’t see the devastating effect food addiction has on families.
    When your spouse is not satisfied with a living, breathing, person but would rather waste all their energy and intimacy on binge-eating, you may need a support group.
    Pray that your spouse can overcome eating junk food.
    Help her understand it takes away from the spirit.
    Over the course of a marriage, sometimes one member has to carry the other one, spiritually.
    Men, remember she likely had issues with this long before.
    Overeating is a compulsive disorder and is physically driven by brain chemistry.
    Brain chemistry is changed with this addiction and so it will take time to re-train her brain.
    Men, take all of the junk food out of the house.
    Spy on her and if you catch her eating junk food - shame her!
“He (or she) that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.” - John 8

mgridle1
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by mgridle1 »

Thinker wrote: October 30th, 2018, 11:28 am One way of helping someone get over an addiction is to NOT shame them about it. Women who are shaming and blaming your husbands, try to imagine how YOU would feel if he reacted the same way about your weaknesses.

Imagine if the addiction was food.
And the topic was:

Wife trying to recover from junk-food addiction
  • Satan is gery good at convincing people junk-food addiction is harmless - but the facts show that heart disease (which obesity is related to) is the #1 killer in the US!!
    Husband feels heartbroken because wife turns to food more than to him.
    Many people don’t see the devastating effect food addiction has on families.
    When your spouse is not satisfied with a living, breathing, person but would rather waste all their energy and intimacy on binge-eating, you may need a support group.
    Pray that your spouse can overcome eating junk food.
    Help her understand it takes away from the spirit.
    Over the course of a marriage, sometimes one member has to carry the other one, spiritually.
    Men, remember she likely had issues with this long before.
    Overeating is a compulsive disorder and is physically driven by brain chemistry.
    Brain chemistry is changed with this addiction and so it will take time to re-train her brain.
    Men, take all of the junk food out of the house.
    Spy on her and if you catch her eating junk food - shame her!
“He (or she) that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.” - John 8
Sort of . ..I don't know we've gotten shame/guilt mixed up and not in a good way.

You absolutely want them to feel guilt,pain, remorse over their sins. It is what motivates us to do better.

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Thinker
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by Thinker »

mgridle1 wrote: October 30th, 2018, 11:41 am
Thinker wrote: October 30th, 2018, 11:28 am One way of helping someone get over an addiction is to NOT shame them about it. Women who are shaming and blaming your husbands, try to imagine how YOU would feel if he reacted the same way about your weaknesses.

Imagine if the addiction was food.
And the topic was:

Wife trying to recover from junk-food addiction
  • Satan is gery good at convincing people junk-food addiction is harmless - but the facts show that heart disease (which obesity is related to) is the #1 killer in the US!!
    Husband feels heartbroken because wife turns to food more than to him.
    Many people don’t see the devastating effect food addiction has on families.
    When your spouse is not satisfied with a living, breathing, person but would rather waste all their energy and intimacy on binge-eating, you may need a support group.
    Pray that your spouse can overcome eating junk food.
    Help her understand it takes away from the spirit.
    Over the course of a marriage, sometimes one member has to carry the other one, spiritually.
    Men, remember she likely had issues with this long before.
    Overeating is a compulsive disorder and is physically driven by brain chemistry.
    Brain chemistry is changed with this addiction and so it will take time to re-train her brain.
    Men, take all of the junk food out of the house.
    Spy on her and if you catch her eating junk food - shame her!
“He (or she) that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.” - John 8
Sort of . ..I don't know we've gotten shame/guilt mixed up and not in a good way.

You absolutely want them to feel guilt,pain, remorse over their sins. It is what motivates us to do better.
Yes, we have gotten them mixed up.
Guilt motivates us to do better.
Shame discourages us and makes us feel like we’re hopeless.
  • “Shame reflects how we feel about ourselves and guilt involves an awareness that our actions have injured someone else. In other words, shame relates to self, guilt to others...

    [According to dictionary...] Guilt involves the awareness of having done something wrong; it arises from our actions. Shame may result from the awareness of guilt but apparently is not the same thing as guilt. It's a painful feeling about how we appear to others (and to ourselves) and doesn't necessarily depend on our having done anything...

    When shame is especially pervasive (what I refer to as core or basic shame), it usually precludes feelings of genuine concern and guilt from developing; the sense of being damaged is so powerful and painful that it crowds out feeling for anyone else...

    In others words, core shame reflects early psychological damage that impedes growth; the capacity to feel guilt depends upon that psychological growth and could be seen as emotional progress.”
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -and-shame
So... the more you shame someone for something, the harder you make it for them to change and progress. That doesn’t mean you have to suck it up and be quiet. Using “I statements” is probably better than “You statements.” And correcting cognitive distortions is also important (https://www.therapistaid.com/worksheets ... rtions.pdf). E.g.: Instead of saying, “You always think of yourself”... rather say: “I feel dismissed and it seems to me like you care more about - - - - than me. Is that true?”

This is not easy - I often struggle with it. I think one of the keys is to owning our own thoughts, feelings and actions and giving others the time and space to do the same.

mgridle1
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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by mgridle1 »

Thinker wrote: October 30th, 2018, 1:37 pm
mgridle1 wrote: October 30th, 2018, 11:41 am
Thinker wrote: October 30th, 2018, 11:28 am One way of helping someone get over an addiction is to NOT shame them about it. Women who are shaming and blaming your husbands, try to imagine how YOU would feel if he reacted the same way about your weaknesses.

Imagine if the addiction was food.
And the topic was:

Wife trying to recover from junk-food addiction
  • Satan is gery good at convincing people junk-food addiction is harmless - but the facts show that heart disease (which obesity is related to) is the #1 killer in the US!!
    Husband feels heartbroken because wife turns to food more than to him.
    Many people don’t see the devastating effect food addiction has on families.
    When your spouse is not satisfied with a living, breathing, person but would rather waste all their energy and intimacy on binge-eating, you may need a support group.
    Pray that your spouse can overcome eating junk food.
    Help her understand it takes away from the spirit.
    Over the course of a marriage, sometimes one member has to carry the other one, spiritually.
    Men, remember she likely had issues with this long before.
    Overeating is a compulsive disorder and is physically driven by brain chemistry.
    Brain chemistry is changed with this addiction and so it will take time to re-train her brain.
    Men, take all of the junk food out of the house.
    Spy on her and if you catch her eating junk food - shame her!
“He (or she) that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.” - John 8
Sort of . ..I don't know we've gotten shame/guilt mixed up and not in a good way.

You absolutely want them to feel guilt,pain, remorse over their sins. It is what motivates us to do better.
Yes, we have gotten them mixed up.
Guilt motivates us to do better.
Shame discourages us and makes us feel like we’re hopeless.
  • “Shame reflects how we feel about ourselves and guilt involves an awareness that our actions have injured someone else. In other words, shame relates to self, guilt to others...

    [According to dictionary...] Guilt involves the awareness of having done something wrong; it arises from our actions. Shame may result from the awareness of guilt but apparently is not the same thing as guilt. It's a painful feeling about how we appear to others (and to ourselves) and doesn't necessarily depend on our having done anything...

    When shame is especially pervasive (what I refer to as core or basic shame), it usually precludes feelings of genuine concern and guilt from developing; the sense of being damaged is so powerful and painful that it crowds out feeling for anyone else...

    In others words, core shame reflects early psychological damage that impedes growth; the capacity to feel guilt depends upon that psychological growth and could be seen as emotional progress.”
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -and-shame
So... the more you shame someone for something, the harder you make it for them to change and progress. That doesn’t mean you have to suck it up and be quiet. Using “I statements” is probably better than “You statements.” And correcting cognitive distortions is also important (https://www.therapistaid.com/worksheets ... rtions.pdf). E.g.: Instead of saying, “You always think of yourself”... rather say: “I feel dismissed and it seems to me like you care more about - - - - than me. Is that true?”

This is not easy - I often struggle with it. I think one of the keys is to owning our own thoughts, feelings and actions and giving others the time and space to do the same.
I disagree:
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/shame
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/guilt

I think too many people try to parse things in ways that shouldn't be parsed and I think shame is one of those words that pyschologists have twisted into a bunch of psyco-babble. Complete crap and meaningless.

Telling someone "I feel dismissed" vs "You only think of yourself" are indeed two different statements and they in fact might be very accurate representations of the truth. You might very well have someone in your life who truly only does think of themselves in any given situation. That might be the honest to goodness truth. Telling that person "I feel dismissed" is crap and will never help motivate them to actually change b/c instead of changing themselves they will attempt to change the perception of themselves.

And that's a big difference. They will in essence be doing the right thing for the wrong reason- they might think "we'll I'm really not a selfish SOB, but I'll tweak this one aspect about my life so that this person won't think I'm an SOB". Contrast that with "hmm, maybe I really am an SOB, I should think about changing who I am".

I think it's too much of the psycho-babble crap that has destroyed society.

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Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by Thinker »

mgridle1 wrote: October 30th, 2018, 2:14 pm
Thinker wrote: October 30th, 2018, 1:37 pm
mgridle1 wrote: October 30th, 2018, 11:41 am
Thinker wrote: October 30th, 2018, 11:28 am One way of helping someone get over an addiction is to NOT shame them about it. Women who are shaming and blaming your husbands, try to imagine how YOU would feel if he reacted the same way about your weaknesses.

Imagine if the addiction was food.
And the topic was:

Wife trying to recover from junk-food addiction
  • Satan is gery good at convincing people junk-food addiction is harmless - but the facts show that heart disease (which obesity is related to) is the #1 killer in the US!!
    Husband feels heartbroken because wife turns to food more than to him.
    Many people don’t see the devastating effect food addiction has on families.
    When your spouse is not satisfied with a living, breathing, person but would rather waste all their energy and intimacy on binge-eating, you may need a support group.
    Pray that your spouse can overcome eating junk food.
    Help her understand it takes away from the spirit.
    Over the course of a marriage, sometimes one member has to carry the other one, spiritually.
    Men, remember she likely had issues with this long before.
    Overeating is a compulsive disorder and is physically driven by brain chemistry.
    Brain chemistry is changed with this addiction and so it will take time to re-train her brain.
    Men, take all of the junk food out of the house.
    Spy on her and if you catch her eating junk food - shame her!
“He (or she) that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.” - John 8
Sort of . ..I don't know we've gotten shame/guilt mixed up and not in a good way.

You absolutely want them to feel guilt,pain, remorse over their sins. It is what motivates us to do better.
Yes, we have gotten them mixed up.
Guilt motivates us to do better.
Shame discourages us and makes us feel like we’re hopeless.
  • “Shame reflects how we feel about ourselves and guilt involves an awareness that our actions have injured someone else. In other words, shame relates to self, guilt to others...

    [According to dictionary...] Guilt involves the awareness of having done something wrong; it arises from our actions. Shame may result from the awareness of guilt but apparently is not the same thing as guilt. It's a painful feeling about how we appear to others (and to ourselves) and doesn't necessarily depend on our having done anything...

    When shame is especially pervasive (what I refer to as core or basic shame), it usually precludes feelings of genuine concern and guilt from developing; the sense of being damaged is so powerful and painful that it crowds out feeling for anyone else...

    In others words, core shame reflects early psychological damage that impedes growth; the capacity to feel guilt depends upon that psychological growth and could be seen as emotional progress.”
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -and-shame
So... the more you shame someone for something, the harder you make it for them to change and progress. That doesn’t mean you have to suck it up and be quiet. Using “I statements” is probably better than “You statements.” And correcting cognitive distortions is also important (https://www.therapistaid.com/worksheets ... rtions.pdf). E.g.: Instead of saying, “You always think of yourself”... rather say: “I feel dismissed and it seems to me like you care more about - - - - than me. Is that true?”

This is not easy - I often struggle with it. I think one of the keys is to owning our own thoughts, feelings and actions and giving others the time and space to do the same.
I disagree:
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/shame
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/guilt

I think too many people try to parse things in ways that shouldn't be parsed and I think shame is one of those words that pyschologists have twisted into a bunch of psyco-babble. Complete crap and meaningless.

Telling someone "I feel dismissed" vs "You only think of yourself" are indeed two different statements and they in fact might be very accurate representations of the truth. You might very well have someone in your life who truly only does think of themselves in any given situation. That might be the honest to goodness truth. Telling that person "I feel dismissed" is crap and will never help motivate them to actually change b/c instead of changing themselves they will attempt to change the perception of themselves.

And that's a big difference. They will in essence be doing the right thing for the wrong reason- they might think "we'll I'm really not a selfish SOB, but I'll tweak this one aspect about my life so that this person won't think I'm an SOB". Contrast that with "hmm, maybe I really am an SOB, I should think about changing who I am".

I think it's too much of the psycho-babble crap that has destroyed society.
Do you know what’s really destroying society? Cognitive distortions - (distorted thinking) and consequent feeling, intent and action. Thought precedes action.

Those dictionary definitions show a similar difference. Shame is more based on feeling - whether that feeling is based on guilt or not. Guilt is commission of a crime or other immoral act.

As I admitted, I struggle with “I statements” so my example may not have been ideal. But hopefully you understand the intent - when confronting or arguing with someone you love, it’s best if both take their own responsibility rather than just point fingers.

It’s so easy to say, “You are a Jerk!” But what does that do except make you look ignorant for engaging in logical fallacy - ad hominem attack. When I have felt really upset, I have thought in terms of labeling someone as a jerk (or other terms). But then I question myself, “Is that really what they are? I thought you hated labels.” I do hate labels. Each person is so complex...
Just for Emotional intelligence component of a person are:
  • -Managing Feelings
    -Handling Stress
    -Empathy
    -Communication
    -Self-Disclosure
    -Insight - identifying patterns in your emotional life and reactions (& in others)
    -Self-Acceptance
    -Personal Responsibility
    -Assertiveness
    -Group Dynamics - cooperation, knowing when to lead and when to follow
    -Conflict Resolution
For Physical - you also have a long list of physiological body systems (like cardiovascular, endocrine, etc), sleep, diet, exercise, etc. For Intellectual, Social, Financial, Psychological (personality, temperament), Spiritual - are lists for each. We are way too complex to just slap on an ad hominem attack label like SOB. And let’s say that while you think someone is a SOB, someone else thinks they’re the best. Who’s right? They could chalk your insult up as just you being mean etc. Wouldn’t it be more helpful to tell them exactly what bothers YOU? And how does that name calling help anyone? I believe the only fitting, true label for anyone is a child of God.

I understand you not wanting to beat around the bush, to not sugar coat things. And we both probably agree that “safe spaces” are ridiculous and many people need to get thicker skin. What I’m suggesting is that when we deal with others’ weaknesses, we need to:
  • realize we have weaknesses too,
    *focus on the behavior, rather than shaming the person - because shaming the person backfires, &
    *seek to understand how complex we each are,
    *to best respond to another & take care of oneself.

mgridle1
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1276

Re: husband trying to recover from porn addiction

Post by mgridle1 »

Thinker wrote: October 30th, 2018, 4:37 pm
mgridle1 wrote: October 30th, 2018, 2:14 pm
Thinker wrote: October 30th, 2018, 1:37 pm
mgridle1 wrote: October 30th, 2018, 11:41 am

Sort of . ..I don't know we've gotten shame/guilt mixed up and not in a good way.

You absolutely want them to feel guilt,pain, remorse over their sins. It is what motivates us to do better.
Yes, we have gotten them mixed up.
Guilt motivates us to do better.
Shame discourages us and makes us feel like we’re hopeless.
  • “Shame reflects how we feel about ourselves and guilt involves an awareness that our actions have injured someone else. In other words, shame relates to self, guilt to others...

    [According to dictionary...] Guilt involves the awareness of having done something wrong; it arises from our actions. Shame may result from the awareness of guilt but apparently is not the same thing as guilt. It's a painful feeling about how we appear to others (and to ourselves) and doesn't necessarily depend on our having done anything...

    When shame is especially pervasive (what I refer to as core or basic shame), it usually precludes feelings of genuine concern and guilt from developing; the sense of being damaged is so powerful and painful that it crowds out feeling for anyone else...

    In others words, core shame reflects early psychological damage that impedes growth; the capacity to feel guilt depends upon that psychological growth and could be seen as emotional progress.”
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -and-shame
So... the more you shame someone for something, the harder you make it for them to change and progress. That doesn’t mean you have to suck it up and be quiet. Using “I statements” is probably better than “You statements.” And correcting cognitive distortions is also important (https://www.therapistaid.com/worksheets ... rtions.pdf). E.g.: Instead of saying, “You always think of yourself”... rather say: “I feel dismissed and it seems to me like you care more about - - - - than me. Is that true?”

This is not easy - I often struggle with it. I think one of the keys is to owning our own thoughts, feelings and actions and giving others the time and space to do the same.
I disagree:
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/shame
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/guilt

I think too many people try to parse things in ways that shouldn't be parsed and I think shame is one of those words that pyschologists have twisted into a bunch of psyco-babble. Complete crap and meaningless.

Telling someone "I feel dismissed" vs "You only think of yourself" are indeed two different statements and they in fact might be very accurate representations of the truth. You might very well have someone in your life who truly only does think of themselves in any given situation. That might be the honest to goodness truth. Telling that person "I feel dismissed" is crap and will never help motivate them to actually change b/c instead of changing themselves they will attempt to change the perception of themselves.

And that's a big difference. They will in essence be doing the right thing for the wrong reason- they might think "we'll I'm really not a selfish SOB, but I'll tweak this one aspect about my life so that this person won't think I'm an SOB". Contrast that with "hmm, maybe I really am an SOB, I should think about changing who I am".

I think it's too much of the psycho-babble crap that has destroyed society.
Do you know what’s really destroying society? Cognitive distortions - (distorted thinking) and consequent feeling, intent and action. Thought precedes action.

Those dictionary definitions show a similar difference. Shame is more based on feeling - whether that feeling is based on guilt or not. Guilt is commission of a crime or other immoral act.

As I admitted, I struggle with “I statements” so my example may not have been ideal. But hopefully you understand the intent - when confronting or arguing with someone you love, it’s best if both take their own responsibility rather than just point fingers.

It’s so easy to say, “You are a Jerk!” But what does that do except make you look ignorant for engaging in logical fallacy - ad hominem attack. When I have felt really upset, I have thought in terms of labeling someone as a jerk (or other terms). But then I question myself, “Is that really what they are? I thought you hated labels.” I do hate labels. Each person is so complex...
Just for Emotional intelligence component of a person are:
  • -Managing Feelings
    -Handling Stress
    -Empathy
    -Communication
    -Self-Disclosure
    -Insight - identifying patterns in your emotional life and reactions (& in others)
    -Self-Acceptance
    -Personal Responsibility
    -Assertiveness
    -Group Dynamics - cooperation, knowing when to lead and when to follow
    -Conflict Resolution
For Physical - you also have a long list of physiological body systems (like cardiovascular, endocrine, etc), sleep, diet, exercise, etc. For Intellectual, Social, Financial, Psychological (personality, temperament), Spiritual - are lists for each. We are way too complex to just slap on an ad hominem attack label like SOB. And let’s say that while you think someone is a SOB, someone else thinks they’re the best. Who’s right? They could chalk your insult up as just you being mean etc. Wouldn’t it be more helpful to tell them exactly what bothers YOU? And how does that name calling help anyone? I believe the only fitting, true label for anyone is a child of God.

I understand you not wanting to beat around the bush, to not sugar coat things. And we both probably agree that “safe spaces” are ridiculous and many people need to get thicker skin. What I’m suggesting is that when we deal with others’ weaknesses, we need to:
  • realize we have weaknesses too,
    *focus on the behavior, rather than shaming the person - because shaming the person backfires, &
    *seek to understand how complex we each are,
    *to best respond to another & take care of oneself.
You bring up some really good points and I don't discount them. I didn't add, but thought to, that yes if you are telling someone that they are a very inconsiderate person you need to be doing it from a position of love and wanting to help the person see the errors of their ways, not out of anger, not out of holier than thou, but out of a sincere desire to help.

If you do it out of a sincere desire to help rather than anger, malice, revenge, desire to get even, etc. people can tell the difference. I submit telling someone the honest truth when done so from a position of love (as in you are conducting yourself in a manner that is way beneath your true potential), it will help that person rather than hurt.

The worst thing you can do to someone you love is tell them yeah, yeah you are such a great person as they drive their car of a cliff.

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