Scriptures: good & bad

[Thinker]

Often I hear scripture praised and focused on, as if god. Nobody prays to the scriptures but many prioritize scriptures above everything - which is essentially the meaning of worship or idolizing. Many of us were taught to do this. Even recently when the bishop asked why I don’t pay tithes so I can go to the temple - and I explained how it conflicts with Christ’s teachings, he told me to read Mormon scriptures.

Scriptures are much like the words you’re reading now - words from fallible people, who may be right but also may be wrong. Don’t be so quick to believe all you read! Utah led the nation in anti-depressants and mental illness. According to studies in a book by lds authors (Brent & Wendy Topp), it is estimated that up to 80% of mental illness is rooted in dysfunctional interpretations of religious doctrines.

Maybe the reason we so often engage in appeal to authority - whether scripture or church leaders - may be because it’s been considered by many to be a means of validation, and because we seek parental substitutes - false but tangible gods to trust in rather than trusting in a God we can’t see. Even to validate the need to question scripture “authority” - I too, will refer to 2 authority’s writings, hoping you’ll see the need to not blindly trust in them...

• “...if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God” - BofM Intro

• "Search the scriptures, search the prophets, and learn what portion of them belongs to you." -Joseph Smith

Also, realize it’s not all or nothing. Scriptures can be good & bad. Some scriptures are horribly immoral:

• “And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
  And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
  And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
  And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
  And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.” - Numbers 15:32-36

• “Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man intimately. But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately.” -Numbers 15:13-18

• "Come, let us make our father drink wine, and let us lie with him that we may preserve our family through our father." - Genesis 19

The Book or Mormon & other lds scripture has some horribly immoral teachings:
*Racial prejudice, suggesting dark skin was God’s curse. 3Ne 2:15, Moses 7:8
*Supporting slavery: D&C 134:12
*(D&C 132:54,56, 64) Pretending God demand marital behavior of his wife, or else she will be destroyed.
*Whoever didn’t support Moroni’s “free government” was killed.” -Alma 46:35 & Alma 62:10
*Those who tried to flee were killed. Alma 62:25-26
*They killed +2,000 Lamanites AFTER the Lamanites “surrendered themselves prisoners of war.” -Alma 57:14

“John W. Welch has identified at least 15 major wars or conflicts that spanned the history of Book of Mormon peoples. A fair portion of the book of Alma (Alma 2–3, 16, 24–25, 43–62) sometimes provides excruciating details concerning the wars between the Lamanites and Nephites.


Again, it’s not all-or-nothing. Scriptures/ideas of people can be both good and bad. There are many good scriptures, like:
1. "God is love." -1John 4:8. (10/18 fridge)
2. "Love one another." -John 13:34 (10/18)
3. "Be still and know that I am God." -Psalm 46:10
4. "Charity never faileth." -1 Cor 13:8
5. "Pray most earnestly." -1Thes 3:10
6. "Who will stand for truth?" -Psalm 119:160

7. "It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man." -Psalm 118:8
8. "Men are that they might have joy." -2Nephi 2:27
9. "Love thy neighbor as thyself." -Matt 22:39
10. "Perfect love casteth out fear." -1John 4:18
11. "The kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20
12. "The Lord looketh on the heart." 1Samuel 16:7

On a lighter note, here’s a fun “Bible Curses” to make you feel ok, even righteous about cussing.
http://www.ship-of-fools.com/curse/

[johnBob]

Thinker-you need to think deeper.

If you interpet Scriptures through modernity you will come away with a very bad sense. The ancients didn't think as we do-we think materialistically-everything is so materialistic. And because we think of everything as "literal" it leads to some really weird conclusions.

Let me give you an example.

What is time?

Yes, the materialistic modern viewpoint will derive some incredibly "scientific" notion of time-that time is measured by seconds, or minutes, nanoseconds, etc. time is measured by something minutely quantifiable and measurable. But that's not time-it's not time how the ancients understood it and it's not time how we EXPERIENCE it.

Time is very simply change-that's all it is. We experience time as measured by change. When you understand that time is simply change, then the Creation of the Earth makes more sense. Whether God took one thousand of our years or 1 million of our years or precisely one of our days to Create the Earth-it doesn't matter. All the Creation is stipulating is that there was a beginning and an end to each Creation period-the beginning and the end is called a "day".

When we start understanding that Scriptures are symbols and that they reveal deep truths about life then yes the events "literally" happened, but the retelling of the events is to help us learn something.

So for example.
------
“And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.” - Numbers 15:32-36
----------
I love this story-it's really powerful, deep and meaningful. It expresses truth, light and knowledge.
It provides meaning for us to understand that there is more to existence than simply the physical body. That the physical body is not the most important part of life.

Someone who is killed because of their belief or inadherence to a particular belief system is a true statement about this world-it happens ALL the time. It is neither immoral or moral-it simply is.

Nobody dies for the truth that 1+1=2, NOBODOY. But millions, upon millions have died for a belief in God. And millions more will die for a god-it is simply a true statement about our mortal existence.

What the Scriptures are telling us here is that some things are more important than this physical existence,in this particular instance it is warning us-quite strongly that belief in the Jewish God (and later the Christian God-which are the same God) is of more importance than the physical body.

The JudeoChristian God, is the God which created the Earth in 7 days, which rested on the 7th day, which gave a commandment to follow Him by resting on the 7th day. If you aren't obeying the Sabbath day, then which god are you really following? Certainly not the One True God. And not following Him results in death-b/c all other gods are false-they are not alive.

All that from one story . . . . .the Scriptures ARE the Word of God-regardless of if His Word offends your modern ears.

[AZRob]

Thinker, I see your premise and find it full of holes. You may be asking what the holes are. The biggest one is that you're reciting scriptural history and stating that the lessons found therein are of no worth to you. That's fine, as your Joseph Smith quote indicates. Some of these scriptures may not belong to you at the moment. However, the scriptural history is still valid. It can just as easily point you to lessons of what not to do. Instead of "take the best, leave the rest," you could find lessons in almost all scripture if you try. Then that Joseph Smith quote can be expanded. You might find that a very large portion of the scriptures belongs to you.

As an example, here's what I find in the scriptures you mentioned-

Numbers 15: The Lord passed a sentence on those who disobeyed his commandments as well as those who worshiped other gods in the land. It sounds mean today. And yet the promises to Abraham would be fulfilled. Is that not a powerful lesson?

Genesis 19: A funny true story meant to explain the origins of the Moabites. Lot's daughters heard their clocks ticking after they lost their husbands in Sodom to fire and brimstone. They got what they wanted. Righteous? You decide.

3 Nephi 2: A true story. You're not ready to believe that the Lord's paradigm is different from yours, so you choose to "leave the rest" rather than glean precious knowledge from a story that offends your modern sensibilities. Born in a different era, you wouldn't have so much as blinked at the thought of a curse of darkness.

D&C 134: This policy statement (now scripture) explains the limits of religion. The alternative would be not being subject to kings, rulers, etc. Maybe you're hoping for some grassroots rabble-rousing here and looking for an anti-slavery statement rather than D&C 134? Not so. In the modern era, religion is only designed to save souls. In the long run, the Lord's promises to Lehi in 2 Nephi 1 were fulfilled where even the institution of slavery was the result of iniquity and resolved itself in a painful civil war. Naturally, you're free to take it or leave it.

D&C 132: Out of all the passages in our current canon of scripture, the second half of this section is one that I don't necessarily believe came from Joseph Smith or God. I realize this makes me more of a heretic in line with some of your thinking. So be it.

Alma 46: True story. Whether doctrinally correct or not, Moroni was of the mind that if he did not compel people to fight for freedom, his people would be overrun, then enslaved or killed anyway. Who knows if he was correct. The beauty of these passages is that you can garner the lessons that you are inspired to learn, and the scripture "belongs" to you whatever your conclusion is.

Alma 57: True story. You may not be a fan of war. I'm not either. But if you're the aggressor and wave the white flag as prisoner of war, you have a moral and mortal duty to actually surrender in exchange for your life being saved. The alternative, even today, is a "take no prisoners" approach, which is fine too but you can't have it both ways. If the prisoners broke their contract and took up arms, you appear to be advocating either that the Nephites ignore the breach of contract and let the Lamanites slide out the back door or that the Nephites lie down and die like men. Behaving as a proper prisoner in exchange for your life might sound harsh to your plush and modern way of thinking. To me it's eminently fair.

My belief is that 99.98% of the scriptures were written by prophets and historians who tried. They tried to preserve spiritual truths. They tried to preserve records of their history. If there are untruths, they are few and far between. Some lessons from scripture are laid out overtly and some are left for the reader to understand and evaluate.

In summary, by taking the best and leaving the rest you leave a lot of good things on the table unexamined. That's fine. You're not yet ready to do as Joseph Smith said. When you're ready, you'll find a lot more of the scriptures belong (and have always belonged) to you than you ever before realized.

[Thinker]

Thinker-you need to think deeper.

If you interpet Scriptures through modernity you will come away with a very bad sense. The ancients didn't think as we do-we think materialistically-everything is so materialistic. And because we think of everything as "literal" it leads to some really weird conclusions...

What is time?
...Time is very simply change...

Someone who is killed because of their belief or inadherence to a particular belief system is a true statement about this world-it happens ALL the time. It is neither immoral or moral-it simply is...
...warning us-quite strongly that belief in the Jewish God (and later the Christian God-which are the same God) is of more importance than the physical body.

The JudeoChristian God, is the God which created the Earth in 7 days, which rested on the 7th day, which gave a commandment to follow Him by resting on the 7th day. If you aren't obeying the Sabbath day, then which god are you really following? Certainly not the One True God. And not following Him results in death-b/c all other gods are false-they are not alive.

All that from one story . . . . .the Scriptures ARE the Word of God-regardless of if His Word offends your modern ears.

I may not think as deeply as the Mariana Trench, but I try. I appreciate you responding and hope we can have a good discussion where all involved learn.

I like your explanation of time as change. Excellent!

You seem to suggest that just because writings are ancient, they are more truthful than modern writings. Remember, once upon a time, human sacrifice was part of the popular religion, and blood-letting was administered hoping to save lives when it actually killed. Just as medical knowledge has evolved and improved, spiritual knowledge has also - though many are told to avoid the study of the soul (psych-ology) & consequently, a lot of people suffer.

• “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.“ - Matthew 23:13

Reading the history of biblical canon was eye-opening as was taking an lds class, “History of Religious Thought” but what struck me most was seeing scripture I’d read my entire life through the context of how the idea of God has evolved. We make god in our own images - based on our own projected ideas. God used to be considered superstitiously as the Sun and polytheistic gods that influenced crops & other vulnerable, unpredictable aspects. Carl Jung explained how Job was a turning point from seeing God as unreasonable, unpredictably punitive & one you couldn’t question... to questioning God and developing necessary faith in a more wise, reasonable God.

https://youtu.be/f-wWBGo6a2w

Do you really believe it’s ok to kill someone who holds a different belief than you? Many of our ancestors came to America for freedom of religion. The heart of this matter is, in part, it’s wrong to use scripture to justify immorality.

Why is the 1st of the lower, basic commandments “thou shalt have no other gods”? Maybe because all false gods - including scriptures - WILL FAIL. Only God will not fail.

When different scriptures contradict, how do you decide which one to believe? Some suggest most people decide by considering “what’s in it for me?” Does this help me feel good or get what I want. Some suggest religious wars happen when someone feels they are not getting what they want - but are avoided when there is mutual benefit/respect etc.

Moses basically said, “Kill those who break trivial rules.”
Yet he and Christ said, “Thou shalt not kill.”
Moses basically said, “You must not do abc-xyz on the Sabbath or risk death!”
Christ said, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.” - Mark 2:27

How would you like to live in a society where you and you’re loved ones would get killed for picking something up on the Sabbath, or killed for your beliefs? Common sense tells us that doesn’t work and thus for the contribution of “thou shalt not kill” and other 10 commandments, Moses is honored in the US Capitol building as a significant law maker.

I agree that often scriptures are meant symbolically, but I also see that they were written by fallible people who we should not put our trust in. That’s not to say we should throw out all scripture and “reinvent the wheel” but rather realize...

• “The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.” - Proverbs 14:15

• “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” - 1Thes 5:21

Intelligence is to choose between. You can’t choose everything, nor should you choose evil. Choose the good part.

[Thinker]

...you're reciting scriptural history and stating that the lessons found therein are of no worth to you...

Instead of "take the best, leave the rest," you could find lessons in almost all scripture if you try...

D&C 132: Out of all the passages in our current canon of scripture, the second half of this section is one that I don't necessarily believe came from Joseph Smith or God...

My belief is that 99.98% of the scriptures were written by prophets and historians who tried...

Thanks, Rob. I appreciate your perspectives. Even if there are points of disagreement - you present it as if you’ve given it some thought.

I never stated that I see no value in scripture lessons. On the contrary, I see a lot of value, but they are not my god. I don’t trust in them blindly because they’re written by fallible people, who tried but often failed, as we all do. Do you know anyone who loves each and every +23,000 bible verses and +10,000 lds scriptures exactly the same? Of course not. For one thing, there’s some insanity - especially taken literally. So, how would Christ have us cherry pick? What values would Christ tell us to use, to determine which scriptures prioritize above others?

• “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” - Matthew 22:37-40

You advised me that I’d find lessons in ALMOST all scripture if I tried. Yet you either didn’t try or there simply wasn’t godly value in that part you don’t believe in D&C 132. This is my point: not all scripture is of God. We do need to think, study, ponder and pray/meditate - not just blindly believe anyone - not even scripture canonized writers/editors/translators. They were fallible people like us.

[johnBob]

Thinker-you need to think deeper.

If you interpet Scriptures through modernity you will come away with a very bad sense. The ancients didn't think as we do-we think materialistically-everything is so materialistic. And because we think of everything as "literal" it leads to some really weird conclusions...

What is time?
...Time is very simply change...

Someone who is killed because of their belief or inadherence to a particular belief system is a true statement about this world-it happens ALL the time. It is neither immoral or moral-it simply is...
...warning us-quite strongly that belief in the Jewish God (and later the Christian God-which are the same God) is of more importance than the physical body.

The JudeoChristian God, is the God which created the Earth in 7 days, which rested on the 7th day, which gave a commandment to follow Him by resting on the 7th day. If you aren't obeying the Sabbath day, then which god are you really following? Certainly not the One True God. And not following Him results in death-b/c all other gods are false-they are not alive.

All that from one story . . . . .the Scriptures ARE the Word of God-regardless of if His Word offends your modern ears.

I may not think as deeply as the Mariana Trench, but I try. I appreciate you responding and hope we can have a good discussion where all involved learn.

I like your explanation of time as change. Excellent!

You seem to suggest that just because writings are ancient, they are more truthful than modern writings. Remember, once upon a time, human sacrifice was part of the popular religion, and blood-letting was administered hoping to save lives when it actually killed. Just as medical knowledge has evolved and improved, spiritual knowledge has also - though many are told to avoid the study of the soul (psych-ology) & consequently, a lot of people suffer.

• “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.“ - Matthew 23:13

Reading the history of biblical canon was eye-opening as was taking an lds class, “History of Religious Thought” but what struck me most was seeing scripture I’d read my entire life through the context of how the idea of God has evolved. We make god in our own images - based on our own projected ideas. God used to be considered superstitiously as the Sun and polytheistic gods that influenced crops & other vulnerable, unpredictable aspects. Carl Jung explained how Job was a turning point from seeing God as unreasonable, unpredictably punitive & one you couldn’t question... to questioning God and developing necessary faith in a more wise, reasonable God.

https://youtu.be/f-wWBGo6a2w

Do you really believe it’s ok to kill someone who holds a different belief than you? Many of our ancestors came to America for freedom of religion. The heart of this matter is, in part, it’s wrong to use scripture to justify immorality.

Why is the 1st of the lower, basic commandments “thou shalt have no other gods”? Maybe because all false gods - including scriptures - WILL FAIL. Only God will not fail.

When different scriptures contradict, how do you decide which one to believe? Some suggest most people decide by considering “what’s in it for me?” Does this help me feel good or get what I want. Some suggest religious wars happen when someone feels they are not getting what they want - but are avoided when there is mutual benefit/respect etc.

Moses basically said, “Kill those who break trivial rules.”
Yet he and Christ said, “Thou shalt not kill.”
Moses basically said, “You must not do abc-xyz on the Sabbath or risk death!”
Christ said, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.” - Mark 2:27

How would you like to live in a society where you and you’re loved ones would get killed for picking something up on the Sabbath, or killed for your beliefs? Common sense tells us that doesn’t work and thus for the contribution of “thou shalt not kill” and other 10 commandments, Moses is honored in the US Capitol building as a significant law maker.

I agree that often scriptures are meant symbolically, but I also see that they were written by fallible people who we should not put our trust in. That’s not to say we should throw out all scripture and “reinvent the wheel” but rather realize...

• “The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.” - Proverbs 14:15

• “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” - 1Thes 5:21

Intelligence is to choose between. You can’t choose everything, nor should you choose evil. Choose the good part.

Mariana Trench-cute-good sense of humor! You are welcome on the description of Time-i can spin quite a bit off from just that simple concept . . but

"Do you really believe it’s ok to kill someone who holds a different belief than you?"

I don't believe Moses's story is necessarily prescriptive-but more descriptive. It is describing the way the world is in actuality-which is people kill for religious beliefs. Cain killed for a religious belief, people today kill for religious beliefs. Just because we don't profess to kill in God's name anymore doesn't mean we don't kill for religious beliefs.

We bomb Iraq because we didn't like what Saddam did. Saddam Hussein picked up sticks on the Sabbath and we killed him for it. It would be nice to live in a world where people aren't killed for religious beliefs, but that would require all of to live in a world that adheres to the same religious beliefs. That doesn't happen until Christ's comes again.

Do I believe it's okay to kill someone who holds a different belief than me-yes I do. If a man believes he has a right to my house I would kill him. If he only says he has the right but doesn't act upon it-then it's not a real belief. Actions are the manifestations of your belief-words are fairly meaningless as people lie all the time with their words-but their actions tell the true story of what they believe.

Yes, I believe there are some beliefs worth dying for and worth killing for. If it wasn't so then this world is meaningless. If you aren't willing to give all or even to take all for your belief then it's not a true belief.

"How would you like to live in a society where you and you’re loved ones would get killed for picking something up on the Sabbath, or killed for your beliefs?"

I already live in a society where I or a loved one gets killed for picking something up on the Sabbath or not picking up something. If I don't pay my taxes, I will be put in jail for it-if I refuse to go, I will be killed. If I go and buy cocaine, I will be arrested-if I don't go with them, I will be killed.

Just because the item of "picking up sticks" has changed to "doing drugs" or "paying taxes" and instead of a Moses we have a US Government, doesn't make the story any less true.

It's a true story about life-which is, it doesn't matter what kind of society you live in there will always be rules and there will always be rules which if you break will result in your death. Whether those rules are "picking up sticks on the Sabbath" or "don't do drugs" or "pay your taxes"-it doesn't matter. If you don't worship whatever god it is your society worships-you will die.

So yes, if I had the choice between a society where picking up sticks resulted in death or where paying taxes resulted in death-I'd rather live in the society where picking up sticks results in death because at least it's following the Lord and not man.

I don't believe just because things are ancient it is true-only that the ancients had a different way of understanding the world. We actually still understand the world the same way-we just pretend that we don't. In the modern world we still sacrifice people to gods-did you not see the recent holywood actress who on public TV stood up and praised how her abortion made it possible for her to win this award. It's the same thing!

[Thinker]

Mariana Trench-cute-good sense of humor! You are welcome on the description of Time-i can spin quite a bit off from just that simple concept . . but

Thank you! I'd love to know what else you think about time. It's fascinating to me!

I don't believe Moses's story is necessarily prescriptive-but more descriptive...Saddam Hussein picked up sticks on the Sabbath and we killed him for it. It would be nice to live in a world where people aren't killed for religious beliefs, but that would require all of to live in a world that adheres to the same religious beliefs. That doesn't happen until Christ's comes again.

Descriptive not prescriptive - is that what scriptures are mostly? Why do we need them, then?
Most wars - both now and in the past - were more about greed and power than religion.

Also, and this is a biggie: Christ told us not to wait or look for his return. One of the most harmful misinterpretations of scriptures is about the kingdom of God. In case you didn't notice, right now we are in a spiritual battle! We need every able soul to help. But many - because of bad scriptures &/or bad interpretation of them - are misled to believe that we can just let everything go to hell to wait for Christ to make it all better. That's what the Jews unrealistically expected of Jesus and is why they went from following him to yelling, "Crucify him" with the mob. Think about it: where do you feel God? Within!

• "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." - Luke 17:20-21

Also, don’t be fooled by “Zionist” lies that suggest any killing and stealing is justified in claiming the land called Israel. And be careful about attempts to establish a “One World Religion”...

“Dispensationalism is the bedrock of Christian Zionism and the 20th Century doctrine of the pre-millenial Rapture, which is more or less an essential element in the Evangelical belief system.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... lic_Church

“In his revealing book, Out of Control, distributed privately among the elite of the Bilderbergers, Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission and other groups, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Rockefeller operative and former National Security Advisor to President Jimmy Carter, declared that the New World Order cannot be built on a foundation of politics and economics alone. To truly establish ironclad global control over all peoples and nations, Brzezinski explained that the elite must also use the religious element.

Likewise, at his State of the World Forum in San Francisco, former Soviet President, Mikhail Gorbachev, advocated the setting up of a United Nations of Religions organization. Indeed, the establishment of just such an antichrist, global religious order was the goal of the hundreds of Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, African Tribalist, and other religious leaders who met a few years ago in Chicago for the World's Parliament of Religions.

Since the end of World War II, the Illuminati have recognized that if their cherished aim of total dictatorial lordship over mankind is to be realized, the spiritual need in man must be channeled and directed. It is not enough to control a man's body and to micro-manage his social and economic environments. Nor is it sufficient to be able to brainwash and hypnotize men's minds. The very souls of men must be molded like some type of psychic clay.

Astonishingly, the Holy Bible prophesied this very thing: That, in the last day, Satan's wicked empire, Mystery, Babylon the Great, would carry on trade and commerce across the globe. All manner of merchandise will be traded and sold, including the "souls of men!" (Revelation 18:13)

Zbigniew Brzezinski, former National Security Advisor and Trilateral Commision insider, advised his Illuminati superiors that the New World Order can be established only be employing religion as a key weapon of global influence.

C. I. Scofield, the corrupt lawyer whose "Scofield Bible" became an international "Christian classic," was paid handsomely by wealthy New York Jews for his service to the Illuminati. Thanks to the Scofield Bible, generations of Christians have been trained up and indoctrinated as unholy Judaizers and Zionists.”
http://www.texemarrs.com/012005/illumin ... infamy.htm

Do I believe it's okay to kill someone who holds a different belief than me-yes I do. If a man believes he has a right to my house I would kill him. If he only says he has the right but doesn't act upon it-then it's not a real belief. Actions are the manifestations of your belief-words are fairly meaningless as people lie all the time with their words-but their actions tell the true story of what they believe.

Yes, I believe there are some beliefs worth dying for and worth killing for. If it wasn't so then this world is meaningless. If you aren't willing to give all or even to take all for your belief then it's not a true belief.

Seems like you're distracting from the topic, or engaging in mental gymnastics - or both.
What exactly is the purpose of the US Constitution's 1st Amendment if religious differences are not allowed? Most people don't try to steal your house, but many choose to do their own religious rituals (actions, not just beliefs) - and as long as they don’t infringe on your or others’ right to life, you have no right to kill them for that.

So yes, if I had the choice between a society where picking up sticks resulted in death or where paying taxes resulted in death-I'd rather live in the society where picking up sticks results in death because at least it's following the Lord and not man.

I call BS. You don't live in such a society and you don't move there, so no, you actually do NOT want to live in a society where you're killed for trivial things. Did you know that in several countries (like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Pakistan etc), women who are raped are killed or punished because they bring shame on the family? If you really wanted to live in such a country over one like the US, then you'd move yourself, spouse, sons & daughters there, but you don't (I'm assuming - correct me if you do live there).

In the modern world we still sacrifice people to gods-did you not see the recent holywood actress who on public TV stood up and praised how her abortion made it possible for her to win this award. It's the same thing!

Good point. I read that actually statistically, abortion is the #1 killer! So so sad. It breaks my heart. People need to realize, this is a CHILD ("developing human being") and abortion often involves ripping the child limb from limb and they know that many of these children can feel pain. At 8 weeks gestation, the nervous system is intact. Utah is the 1st state to require later term abortions to administer pain relief to the child, but most still do not. It is so sick and evil! Yet, many women and girls are misled to believe it's no big deal - "just a procedure to get rid of a parasite" - is what I've heard. They don't hear the silent screams. "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." But that doesn't mean to go along or support it. I have often felt morally and spiritually obligated to stand up for "the least of these" - children in and outside of the womb - who are suffering.

[johnBob]

Thank you! I'd love to know what else you think about time. It's fascinating to me!

On time. It's a very accurate statement to state that time is speeding up. The very nature of our existence is going faster. When you understand that an aspect of time is change and that time is measured by change-that is how we experience time is through change-then you understand that time is speeding up AND running out. The snake in the garden of Eden is also time (among other things). The snake (or Satan) introduces change into the world.

There is a natural flow to time and there is a limit to how fast of a clock men, women, societies, cultures can tolerate before they disintegrate. When Nelson states "Time is running out"-it is very accurate in that statement. There is a limit to the amount of time that is available before time stops. It can stop from stagnation and no change or it can go so fast that the very fabric of it is torn asunder.

Eventually without a balancing force the snake eats it's own tail. It is at that point that a rebirth or a reset is needed to set things in order again. It is this understanding which leads me to believe that we are going to see some massive changes in the Church very soon-because time is speeding up.

Descriptive not prescriptive - is that what scriptures are mostly? Why do we need them, then?
Most wars - both now and in the past - were more about greed and power than religion.

Also, and this is a biggie: Christ told us not to wait or look for his return. One of the most harmful misinterpretations of scriptures is about the kingdom of God. In case you didn't notice, right now we are in a spiritual battle! We need every able soul to help. But many - because of bad scriptures &/or bad interpretation of them - are misled to believe that we can just let everything go to hell to wait for Christ to make it all better. That's what the Jews unrealistically expected of Jesus and is why they went from following him to yelling, "Crucify him" with the mob. Think about it: where do you feel God? Within!

• "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." - Luke 17:20-21

Scriptures are both, descriptive and prescriptive. You seem to grasp this concept in some areas but not in others-like the Kingdom of God. That statement is both descriptive and prescriptive. If everyone recognizes the Kingdom of God within themselves and becomes the Kingdom of God individually then the entire Kingdom for everyone can be made manifest-that's Zion.

We need them because they explain truth-even if aspects are only descriptive-it explains deep meaning about the very nature of our existence.

Do I believe it's okay to kill someone who holds a different belief than me-yes I do. If a man believes he has a right to my house I would kill him. If he only says he has the right but doesn't act upon it-then it's not a real belief. Actions are the manifestations of your belief-words are fairly meaningless as people lie all the time with their words-but their actions tell the true story of what they believe.

Yes, I believe there are some beliefs worth dying for and worth killing for. If it wasn't so then this world is meaningless. If you aren't willing to give all or even to take all for your belief then it's not a true belief.

Seems like you're distracting from the topic, or engaging in mental gymnastics - or both.
What exactly is the purpose of the US Constitution's 1st Amendment if religious differences are not allowed? Most people don't try to steal your house, but many choose to do their own religious rituals (actions, not just beliefs) - and as long as they don’t infringe on your or others’ right to life, you have no right to kill them for that.

So yes, if I had the choice between a society where picking up sticks resulted in death or where paying taxes resulted in death-I'd rather live in the society where picking up sticks results in death because at least it's following the Lord and not man.

I call BS. You don't live in such a society and you don't move there, so no, you actually do NOT want to live in a society where you're killed for trivial things. Did you know that in several countries (like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Pakistan etc), women who are raped are killed or punished because they bring shame on the family? If you really wanted to live in such a country over one like the US, then you'd move yourself, spouse, sons & daughters there, but you don't (I'm assuming - correct me if you do live there).

Again you are seeming to grasp what I'm saying, but not quite there.

In the modern world we still sacrifice people to gods-did you not see the recent holywood actress who on public TV stood up and praised how her abortion made it possible for her to win this award. It's the same thing!

Good point. I read that actually statistically, abortion is the #1 killer! So so sad. It breaks my heart. People need to realize, this is a CHILD ("developing human being") and abortion often involves ripping the child limb from limb and they know that many of these children can feel pain. At 8 weeks gestation, the nervous system is intact. Utah is the 1st state to require later term abortions to administer pain relief to the child, but most still do not. It is so sick and evil! Yet, many women and girls are misled to believe it's no big deal - "just a procedure to get rid of a parasite" - is what I've heard. They don't hear the silent screams. "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." But that doesn't mean to go along or support it. I have often felt morally and spiritually obligated to stand up for "the least of these" - children in and outside of the womb - who are suffering.

Here you have grasped what I'm saying.

What I am saying is that we think of picking up sticks as a "trivial" matter-but it's not. Our current society has all sorts of "trivial" laws which if you violate will result in your death. You can tell what or which god a society serves by the "trivial" laws which result in death.

Every April 15th I'm required to pay obeisance to the god of the State. If I refuse to do so to a false god, I am killed for it. Every society which has ever existed has had this mechanism-i.e. if you violate specific laws you will be put to death. We believe in the US that we are so much better than any other society because we like to think we don't do those horrific barbaric things that previous civilizations did . . .except we do.

We still have blasphemy laws. Just try blaspheming against the LGBTQ+ diversity god at work and see what that gets you!
We still have laws which will kill people over trivial sticks-just try growing a particular weed on your property and watch men with guns and flashbangs raid your home at 2am in the morning!

What I'm saying is that every society has gods that it serves. I don't live in Yemen or Saudia Arabia because they don't serve a true god-they have the god of Islam-that's not a true god.

At the beginning of this country we served a true God-Christianity. The 1st Admendment wasn't made to protect Islam-it was made to ensure all the sects of Christianity could live peacefully together-not that Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Aethists could live peacefully together-because they can't. Their fundamental beliefs are so divergent that it's impossible for them to co-exist peacefully in large groups together. We only think this is possible now because we haven't seen the full fruits of what happens when Muslim Somalies take over Minneapolis . . .we soon will.

[Thinker]

On time. It's a very accurate statement to state that time is speeding up. The very nature of our existence is going faster. When you understand that an aspect of time is change and that time is measured by change-that is how we experience time is through change-then you understand that time is speeding up AND running out. The snake in the garden of Eden is also time (among other things). The snake (or Satan) introduces change into the world.

There is a natural flow to time and there is a limit to how fast of a clock men, women, societies, cultures can tolerate before they disintegrate. When Nelson states "Time is running out"-it is very accurate in that statement. There is a limit to the amount of time that is available before time stops. It can stop from stagnation and no change or it can go so fast that the very fabric of it is torn asunder.

Eventually without a balancing force the snake eats it's own tail. It is at that point that a rebirth or a reset is needed to set things in order again. It is this understanding which leads me to believe that we are going to see some massive changes in the Church very soon-because time is speeding up.

At first I thought you were congratulating me for being "on time."

Interesting! Time as essentially change - makes sense, especially when you consider the cosmos - and how we measure time based on the changes of the earth in relation to the sun.

I wonder how God and spirits see time. Can we consciously time travel? I’ve had dreams that came true and many have had some sense of what will happen in the future. I wonder if we can have influence in the past.

What do you think the required "balancing force" is? The force as in the tao/spirit? Balance as in yin/yang - "opposition in all things"? Karma? I'd be interested to know how you interpret:

• "For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. ... If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness.'- 2Nephi 2:11

Scriptures are both, descriptive and prescriptive. You seem to grasp this concept in some areas but not in others-like the Kingdom of God. That statement is both descriptive and prescriptive. If everyone recognizes the Kingdom of God within themselves and becomes the Kingdom of God individually then the entire Kingdom for everyone can be made manifest-that's Zion.

We need them because they explain truth-even if aspects are only descriptive-it explains deep meaning about the very nature of our existence.

I agree that scriptures are both descriptive and prescriptive. I also see how the kingdom of God is within me, you and all. Yet, there's so much more to this, so I'm going to quote myself again because I'd like to discuss this more, if you would comment on what it actually means to "enter into the kingdom of God" and how our church is misnamed.
[Thinker:]
Also, and this is a biggie: Christ told us not to wait or look for his return. One of the most harmful misinterpretations of scriptures is about the kingdom of God. In case you didn't notice, right now we are in a spiritual battle! We need every able soul to help. But many - because of bad scriptures &/or bad interpretation of them - are misled to believe that we can just let everything go to hell to wait for Christ to make it all better. That's what the Jews unrealistically expected of Jesus and is why they went from following him to yelling, "Crucify him" with the mob. Think about it: where do you feel God? Within!

• "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." - Luke 17:20-21

...we think of picking up sticks as a "trivial" matter-but it's not. Our current society has all sorts of "trivial" laws which if you violate will result in your death. You can tell what or which god a society serves by the "trivial" laws which result in death.

Every April 15th I'm required to pay obeisance to the god of the State. If I refuse to do so to a false god, I am killed for it. Every society which has ever existed has had this mechanism-i.e. if you violate specific laws you will be put to death. We believe in the US that we are so much better than any other society because we like to think we don't do those horrific barbaric things that previous civilizations did . . .except we do.

We still have blasphemy laws. Just try blaspheming against the LGBTQ+ diversity god at work and see what that gets you!
We still have laws which will kill people over trivial sticks-just try growing a particular weed on your property and watch men with guns and flashbangs raid your home at 2am in the morning!

What I'm saying is that every society has gods that it serves. I don't live in Yemen or Saudia Arabia because they don't serve a true god-they have the god of Islam-that's not a true god.

At the beginning of this country we served a true God-Christianity. The 1st Admendment wasn't made to protect Islam-it was made to ensure all the sects of Christianity could live peacefully together-not that Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Aethists could live peacefully together-because they can't. Their fundamental beliefs are so divergent that it's impossible for them to co-exist peacefully in large groups together. We only think this is possible now because we haven't seen the full fruits of what happens when Muslim Somalies take over Minneapolis . . .we soon will.

Who knows - I did hear that Islam is the fastest growing religion, but that seems difficult to believe. Maybe I'm living in a bubble & forgetting how so many in other countries celebrated with 9-11 attack. I believe - and quantum physics suggests - that what we believe has power! If you believe that Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Atheists can't live peacefully together, then you will consciously or subconsciously act and preach on that belief. I'm not suggesting put our heads in the sand or put on rose-colored glasses, but consider what each of us can do to in living this claimed ideal:

• "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."- Article of Faith 11

And from the US Constitution 1st Amendment:

• “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

You have to admit, in the US, you are not actually killed if you don't pay taxes or grow marijuana. The US has been founded with a lot of rights that prevent killing citizens. Government can legally kill a citizen only after they are found to be guilty (of murder etc) through due-process trial and jury if wanted, and only if that state supports capital punishment.

Yet, in war, almost anything seems to be allowed. What's especially sad is how many have been hurt and/or killed - all for what? Greed and power, mostly. So, I can see a false god there. And I can definitely see a false god in the homosexual movement. That - along with "Antifa" and all the hypocritical bigotry reminds me of what Nietzsche discerned:

• "God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us?"

Some Atheists use this quote out of context as if it's a victory in killing dogmatic versions of God - yet, in context, this is a horrible admission of guilt - not victory but defeat. What do you think he meant?

[johnBob]

.

[johnBob]

At first I thought you were congratulating me for being "on time."
Interesting! Time as essentially change - makes sense, especially when you consider the cosmos - and how we measure time based on the changes of the earth in relation to the sun.

I wonder how God and spirits see time. Can we consciously time travel? I’ve had dreams that came true and many have had some sense of what will happen in the future. I wonder if we can have influence in the past.

What do you think the required "balancing force" is? The force as in the tao/spirit? Balance as in yin/yang - "opposition in all things"? Karma? I'd be interested to know how you interpret:

• "For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. ... If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness.'- 2Nephi 2:11

That's a good question, I haven't thought too much down that road. Maybe it's something like one eternal round, time must go faster and faster until it stops and then it restarts again? Maybe rather than + or - time is something that flows. Time goes fast or slow, too fast and it breaks down to a complete stop where it starts again? I'm not sure, great question. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Also, and this is a biggie: Christ told us not to wait or look for his return. One of the most harmful misinterpretations of scriptures is about the kingdom of God. In case you didn't notice, right now we are in a spiritual battle! We need every able soul to help. But many - because of bad scriptures &/or bad interpretation of them - are misled to believe that we can just let everything go to hell to wait for Christ to make it all better. That's what the Jews unrealistically expected of Jesus and is why they went from following him to yelling, "Crucify him" with the mob. Think about it: where do you feel God? Within!

• "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." - Luke 17:20-21

My viewpoint is somewhat evolving but not much. The Kingdom of God is within us. Yet Christ did resurrect. So I believe in both, an actual 2nd Coming with Christ descending in glory to rule and reign upon all the world-but also that the Kingdom is within us. This one is complicated and I'm trying to understand it better.

Who knows - I did hear that Islam is the fastest growing religion, but that seems difficult to believe. Maybe I'm living in a bubble & forgetting how so many in other countries celebrated with 9-11 attack. I believe - and quantum physics suggests - that what we believe has power! If you believe that Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Atheists can't live peacefully together, then you will consciously or subconsciously act and preach on that belief. I'm not suggesting put our heads in the sand or put on rose-colored glasses, but consider what each of us can do to in living this claimed ideal:

• "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."- Article of Faith 11

And from the US Constitution 1st Amendment:

• “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

There is a lot of truth to this statement. I think one can only truly leave peacefully the more segregated not integrated society becomes. People self-segregate. We join clubs or groups we enjoy, we move to communities we enjoy. We are tribal by nature. If individually we have our own group then as long as it isn't encroached upon we can work with other groups. The problem being that other groups don't view life the same way we do. The 1st Amendment is only made for a certain time period and a certain group of people. And contrary to popular belief, the US was HEAVILY religious. Several States had official State Religions until the 1820s (30+ years after the Constitution). Each State was it's own nation. Our founding was more like the EU is today than how we are. The 1st Amendment was only trying to find a way so that these different states could be very independent-it was more of a confederation than a solid one state.

You have to admit, in the US, you are not actually killed if you don't pay taxes or grow marijuana. The US has been founded with a lot of rights that prevent killing citizens. Government can legally kill a citizen only after they are found to be guilty (of murder etc) through due-process trial and jury if wanted, and only if that state supports capital punishment.

No, you are actually killed if you don't pay taxes or grow marijuana. If you do not yield to the State's authority to tell you to not grow marijuana-you will be killed. Period.

Yet, in war, almost anything seems to be allowed. What's especially sad is how many have been hurt and/or killed - all for what? Greed and power, mostly. So, I can see a false god there. And I can definitely see a false god in the homosexual movement. That - along with "Antifa" and all the hypocritical bigotry reminds me of what Nietzsche discerned:

• "God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us?"

Some Atheists use this quote out of context as if it's a victory in killing dogmatic versions of God - yet, in context, this is a horrible admission of guilt - not victory but defeat. What do you think he meant?

What I'm getting at is that our "civilized" society is still brutish-we can make all sort of platitudes and vernier about how we live in a "civilized" society. But at the end of the day, if you don't obey the State-you die.

I agree with your assessment of Nietzche. Which is why I said, I'd rather live in a society which is based off of JudeoChristianity and people are killed for disobeying that rather than any other religion State government or belief system.

What I'm trying to communicate is that in actuality we in actuality live in a Theocracy. We always have and always will live in a Theocracy. Simply because the government doesn't give obeisance to an entity that one prays to (or what is typically thought of prayer-as in close eyes and saying words), it is still a theocracy. The State has a religion and it enforces it's religion by force (i.e. if you don't do what I say and bow down to this religion-you will die).

We don't live in a JudeoChristian society, we have other gods which are the current religion. If we lived in a JudeoChristian society, then we would give obeisance to Him. Our laws would do so.

I say this as a libertarian, if men were angels we could have that society.

[Thinker]

...Maybe it's something like one eternal round, time must go faster and faster until it stops and then it restarts again? Maybe rather than + or - time is something that flows. Time goes fast or slow, too fast and it breaks down to a complete stop where it starts again? I'm not sure, great question. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I'm not sure either, but I think what you mentioned seem plausible. There's this clip about the 10 dimensions. It's suggested in higher dimensions to get from one to the next, it's compared to a mobius strip - a strip or band that is twisted before joined as a loop, so if you were to keep walking on it, you'd walk on one side then the other.

Speaking of time and scripture, how in the world could Noah and others live hundreds of years? Supposedly, Noah lived to be 950. I'm thinking the word for year and month were mixed up. 950 divided by 12 months is 79.16. But apparently that is still a very old age compared to common life expectancy back then...

Anthropologists estimate lifespan for 4,000 BC (Adam & Eve’s time when taken literally) was 20 years old.
http://shelleywestwood.weebly.com/uploa ... de_key.pdf

My viewpoint is somewhat evolving but not much. The Kingdom of God is within us. Yet Christ did resurrect. So I believe in both, an actual 2nd Coming with Christ descending in glory to rule and reign upon all the world-but also that the Kingdom is within us. This one is complicated and I'm trying to understand it better.

I am also still trying to understand this. They say exploring it is even more than exploring the world! Kingdom is another word for realm - and I'd also say "experience" and "perception." What do you think "I AM THAT I AM" means? It seems to be that awareness of a higher estate. I imagine getting to know God basically - the higher GOoD - involves a lot! It's likely learning - by research etc, learning by experience and by thinking it through - processing it all.

There is a lot of truth to this statement. I think one can only truly leave peacefully the more segregated not integrated society becomes. People self-segregate. We join clubs or groups we enjoy, we move to communities we enjoy. We are tribal by nature. If individually we have our own group then as long as it isn't encroached upon we can work with other groups. The problem being that other groups don't view life the same way we do. The 1st Amendment is only made for a certain time period and a certain group of people. And contrary to popular belief, the US was HEAVILY religious. Several States had official State Religions until the 1820s (30+ years after the Constitution). Each State was it's own nation. Our founding was more like the EU is today than how we are. The 1st Amendment was only trying to find a way so that these different states could be very independent-it was more of a confederation than a solid one state.

Good points. As it is, most people are very tribal and may get along better separate. Still, I don't believe this is the ideal. This may be an aspect in which children have a lot to teach us. When they are little, they play with whoever, without segregating themselves. They may be tribal - but are usually not too picky about who joins their little group. Unfortunately this doesn't last long - but I'd say the first 5 years or so are like that.

What I'm trying to communicate is that in actuality we in actuality live in a Theocracy. We always have and always will live in a Theocracy. Simply because the government doesn't give obeisance to an entity that one prays to (or what is typically thought of prayer-as in close eyes and saying words), it is still a theocracy. The State has a religion and it enforces it's religion by force (i.e. if you don't do what I say and bow down to this religion-you will die).

We don't live in a JudeoChristian society, we have other gods which are the current religion. If we lived in a JudeoChristian society, then we would give obeisance to Him. Our laws would do so.

I say this as a libertarian, if men were angels we could have that society.

Ok, I see what you were getting at. It's complicated though, isn't it? I mean, I don't want a true Theocracy telling me that I must follow Catholicism or Islam. There must be a separation of church and state. Yet, the state needs to have some godly values in how it's run - or else it develops a theocracy - or value system - that is just more deceived - it's allowed because it isn't given the label, "religion" and yet it is a value system based on faith. Its faith is more like, "we believe we can kill children - developing human beings - and that these children don't have rights - only the mother does."

So we have this value system dictating immoral laws and actions - and it's considered "constitutional" because it doesn't claim to be a religion. Yet it is a massive herd mentality (re-legion). How did we get to this point and how do we correct course? Any scriptures that would help or be as warning as what not to do?

[Original_Intent]

Speaking of time and scripture, how in the world could Noah and others live hundreds of years? Supposedly, Noah lived to be 950. I'm thinking the word for year and month were mixed up. 950 divided by 12 months is 79.16. But apparently that is still a very old age compared to common life expectancy back then...

An interesting thought, but the scriptures prove it incorrect.

When laying out the generations, they state things like "Soandso lived 50 years and begat Anotherguy, and after he begat another guy he lived 732 years, and he died." So I think the wisdom of God in having it spelled out like this does a tidy job of dismissing your theory of the words month and year being switched.

I also had thought that maybe the earth went around the sun a lot faster back then, so maybe a year was a lot shorter - and that could be the case to an extent. But you still would need to take the extreme cases of the "begats" and determine realistically how old a male would have to be to have children, and then using that as a baseline, people were still living a lot longer than they do now.. And really even that is speculation, we are probably better off taking the scriptures at their word - that at one point mankind had a lifespan in the hundreds of years.

[johnBob]

I'm not sure either, but I think what you mentioned seem plausible. There's this clip about the 10 dimensions. It's suggested in higher dimensions to get from one to the next, it's compared to a mobius strip - a strip or band that is twisted before joined as a loop, so if you were to keep walking on it, you'd walk on one side then the other.

Very neat, I'll have to watch it.

Speaking of time and scripture, how in the world could Noah and others live hundreds of years? Supposedly, Noah lived to be 950. I'm thinking the word for year and month were mixed up. 950 divided by 12 months is 79.16. But apparently that is still a very old age compared to common life expectancy back then...

Anthropologists estimate lifespan for 4,000 BC (Adam & Eve’s time when taken literally) was 20 years old.
http://shelleywestwood.weebly.com/uploa ... de_key.pdf

I don't buy into much of what anthropologists state. They think we came from monkeys-even though it would end up being a miracle if all different races just so happened to evolve just as the same time!

Actually what I think happened is that telomeres :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere

Our entire body replicates itself-the actual living cells in your body today are not the same ones in your body a month ago. The cells replicate and die. Every cell in your body replicates itself over time. I think in the Garden that cell replication was perfect. If the cells were perfect replication (or even never replicated) you would never age. Ageing happens due to replication errors, each replication produces shorter telemeres which when they get short enough expose the chromosones and lead to aging effects as cells can't replicate perfectly.

I think the Fall was a literal falling from perfect replication to introducing errors. It took time for their bodies to be fully corrupted. Which is why you see each generation after Adam in general have a shorter lifespan. Terah (Abraham's father) was 205 years old and Abraham 175, Isaac @180, Israel @ 147, Joseph @ 110. Moses @ 120. Joshua @110 and David @ 70

To claim the months and years were mixed up, is really tough because you have to account for the decreasing lifespan. You can see the pattern.

I am also still trying to understand this. They say exploring it is even more than exploring the world! Kingdom is another word for realm - and I'd also say "experience" and "perception." What do you think "I AM THAT I AM" means? It seems to be that awareness of a higher estate. I imagine getting to know God basically - the higher GOoD - involves a lot! It's likely learning - by research etc, learning by experience and by thinking it through - processing it all.

Yes, it's interesting. I have a lot to learn.

Good points. As it is, most people are very tribal and may get along better separate. Still, I don't believe this is the ideal. This may be an aspect in which children have a lot to teach us. When they are little, they play with whoever, without segregating themselves. They may be tribal - but are usually not too picky about who joins their little group. Unfortunately this doesn't last long - but I'd say the first 5 years or so are like that.

I think it's just an artifact of the fall. I think trying to force it is like trying to force water uphill-you can do it, but it's really, really hard and you can only do it with outside force.

Ok, I see what you were getting at. It's complicated though, isn't it? I mean, I don't want a true Theocracy telling me that I must follow Catholicism or Islam. There must be a separation of church and state. Yet, the state needs to have some godly values in how it's run - or else it develops a theocracy - or value system - that is just more deceived - it's allowed because it isn't given the label, "religion" and yet it is a value system based on faith. Its faith is more like, "we believe we can kill children - developing human beings - and that these children don't have rights - only the mother does."

So we have this value system dictating immoral laws and actions - and it's considered "constitutional" because it doesn't claim to be a religion. Yet it is a massive herd mentality (re-legion). How did we get to this point and how do we correct course? Any scriptures that would help or be as warning as what not to do?

Yes, I think you are seeing it. I think the way you get around it is through tribes, nations splitting and forming their own nations rather than huge conglomerates. If we lived under Christ then there would be no need as everyone would heed Him as the perfect ruler. The US experiment is really unique in all of mankind. At the beginning each colony had it's own state religion. Baptists were South Carolina, Congregationalists were Massachusetts. The beauty of the US was that we came together under the banner of Christianity to win independence.

I don't think a nation can survive very long when it does not have a singular cohesive religion. The US's current cohesive religion is materialism-I don't believe it's a religion which has enough staying power to survive long-what comes after that . . .we shall see.

[Thinker]

Speaking of time and scripture, how in the world could Noah and others live hundreds of years? Supposedly, Noah lived to be 950. I'm thinking the word for year and month were mixed up. 950 divided by 12 months is 79.16. But apparently that is still a very old age compared to common life expectancy back then...

An interesting thought, but the scriptures prove it incorrect.

When laying out the generations, they state things like "Soandso lived 50 years and begat Anotherguy, and after he begat another guy he lived 732 years, and he died." So I think the wisdom of God in having it spelled out like this does a tidy job of dismissing your theory of the words month and year being switched.

I also had thought that maybe the earth went around the sun a lot faster back then, so maybe a year was a lot shorter - and that could be the case to an extent. But you still would need to take the extreme cases of the "begats" and determine realistically how old a male would have to be to have children, and then using that as a baseline, people were still living a lot longer than they do now.. And really even that is speculation, we are probably better off taking the scriptures at their word - that at one point mankind had a lifespan in the hundreds of years.

“Taking the scriptures at their word” may be problematic when you consider what these words have been through to be how they are now. Think of the telephone game - where you whisper to someone, they whisper what they heard & so on down the line - until the last person says what they heard & it’s nothing like the original. Times that by thousands of years - most years of which they didn’t have printers, let alone telephones.

Who has a monopoly on truth? You? Me? Joseph Smith? CS Lewis? Nobody. I believe each person on this earth has something unique to teach. Nobody knows everything. Scriptures are not cook books - nor history or science books. They are spiritual books. Nobody - not even scripture writers - ought to be trusted and if they’re God. I’m afraid if people don’t recognize that quickly, their foundation will not stand coming storms.

Still, you bring up an interesting possibility about possibly time being different (earth spinning different) back then.

[Thinker]

...Anthropologists estimate lifespan for 4,000 BC (Adam & Eve’s time when taken literally) was 20 years old.
http://shelleywestwood.weebly.com/uploa ... de_key.pdf

I don't buy into much of what anthropologists state. They think we came from monkeys-even though it would end up being a miracle if all different races just so happened to evolve just as the same time!

What do you mean? Doesn’t Evolution (theory) point out the sequence of events & Creationism (theory) ignores this sequence (eg: chickens having genetic possibility of teeth, dinosaurs similar to chickens and tailbones in humans etc)? Evolution suggests that all come from something - rather than creationism suggesting all originating from... what evidence?

Don’t get me wrong. I believe in both Intelligent Design and evolution. God created this world to evolve.

Actually what I think happened is that telomeres :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere

Our entire body replicates itself-the actual living cells in your body today are not the same ones in your body a month ago. The cells replicate and die. Every cell in your body replicates itself over time. I think in the Garden that cell replication was perfect. If the cells were perfect replication (or even never replicated) you would never age. Ageing happens due to replication errors, each replication produces shorter telemeres which when they get short enough expose the chromosones and lead to aging effects as cells can't replicate perfectly.

Fascinating! You inspired me to look this up & I found that telomeres can be lengthened by exercise, eating healthy, stress reduction/meditation and good social connections.

Also, this idea of our bodies transforming seems to fit with the idea of evolution AND intelligent design.

I think the Fall was a literal falling from perfect replication to introducing errors. It took time for their bodies to be fully corrupted. Which is why you see each generation after Adam in general have a shorter lifespan. Terah (Abraham's father) was 205 years old and Abraham 175, Isaac @180, Israel @ 147, Joseph @ 110. Moses @ 120. Joshua @110 and David @ 70

To claim the months and years were mixed up, is really tough because you have to account for the decreasing lifespan. You can see the pattern.

But that’s interpreting spiritual writings scientifically. They weren’t meant for that. And when you look at the evidence, life spans have increased, not decreased.

I think it's just an artifact of the fall. I think trying to force it is like trying to force water uphill-you can do it, but it's really, really hard and you can only do it with outside force.

Good analogy.

Yes, I think you are seeing it. I think the way you get around it is through tribes, nations splitting and forming their own nations rather than huge conglomerates. If we lived under Christ then there would be no need as everyone would heed Him as the perfect ruler. The US experiment is really unique in all of mankind. At the beginning each colony had it's own state religion. Baptists were South Carolina, Congregationalists were Massachusetts. The beauty of the US was that we came together under the banner of Christianity to win independence.

I don't think a nation can survive very long when it does not have a singular cohesive religion. The US's current cohesive religion is materialism-I don't believe it's a religion which has enough staying power to survive long-what comes after that . . .we shall see.

Maybe the main religion is materialism, which motivates greed & focus on feelings above what’s right. Yet capitalism seems to be much better than alternatives like socialism or communism, though maybe options exist which are not yet realized.

[Thinker]

Thinker-you need to think deeper.

If you interpet Scriptures through modernity you will come away with a very bad sense. The ancients didn't think as we do-we think materialistically-everything is so materialistic. And because we think of everything as "literal" it leads to some really weird conclusions…

Again, I agree… & wanted to share this applicable quote:

“When you translate the Bible with excessive literalism, you demythologize it. The possibility of a convincing reference to the individual's own spiritual experience is lost…
Wherever the poetry of myth is interpreted as biography, history, or science, it is killed.

Myth is much more important and true than history. History is just journalism and you know how reliable that is…

The god you worship is the one you're capable of becoming...

Read myths. They teach you that you can turn inward, and you begin to get the message of the symbols. Read other people's myths, not those of your own religion, because you tend to interpret your own religion in terms of facts -- but if you read the other ones, you begin to get the message.

Mythology may, in a real sense, be defined as other people's religion. And religion may, in a sense, be understood as popular misunderstanding of mythology.”
- Joseph Campbell