What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?

[SempiternalHarbinger]

Please. There is simply no comparison between Nelson and the prophets you listed.

Moses saw God face to face. He told the people that. He tried to bring them into the presence of God, but only 70 would go. The rest were too afraid of God.

Moses quoted the words of God, in God's own voice, over and over again.

Moses performed mighty miracles, such as the parting of the Red Sea.

Joseph Smith saw God the Father, Jesus Christ, and many angels. He had many visions.

He received over 100 "thus saith the Lord" revelations, and didn't stuff them under his mattress. Rather he published them for the saints to have, even the ones who were for specific people or the ones where God had rebuked him personally.

Joseph healed those on their death bed and cast out evil spirits on several occasions.

Joseph commanded the elements and a storm came and drove off the enemies of Zion's camp.

Joseph Smith was persecuted and killed for his testimony of Jesus.

Nephi had many visions, including those of the future. In a vision he saw everything that would befall his people, the coming of the Savior, the latter and last days, etc. He told us exactly what he saw and was told, except for that portion which he was forbidden to write.

Nephi performed mighty miracles. He was also persecuted and nearly killed on several occasions because of his faithfulness.

What has Nelson done?

As far as we know he has never had a vision, let alone seen God the Father, Jesus Christ, or an angel.

He has never declared a revelation from God and quoted the words God gave him.

He has not performed any miracles like the ones described in the scriptures. Instead he calls giving a crippled kid a wheelchair a miracle.

President Nelson has not been persecuted. He is honored throughout the world, meeting with the wicked rulers of this earth and being received by them in the hand of fellowship. There is no evidence that he has called any of these wicked rulers to repentance either. If he did, he would have been cast out by them or even killed.

But yeah, his crazy wife says he received detailed instructions from the Lord during the night, so I guess he's just like Moses, Joseph Smith, and Nephi.

And yet I don’t base my testimony off of what any of them have done rather I how I have been transformed as a result of doing what they have invited. Until you understand this principle you will continue to grapple and waste time.

Based on your logic a Catholic who religiously follows every word of the Pope and feels transformed because of it can be sure that he really is the spokesman of God upon the earth.

Same goes for those who follow Denver Snuffer.

This is not the prophetic fruit Christ was talking about.

Your speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

On the one hand You say that it doesn't matter what someone says, only what they do when pushed into a corner. Then when pushed into the other corner you say that it doesn't matter what people do only how they make others feel.

You can't have it both ways.

Jesus said, "by their fruits ye shall know them." You have yet to point to a single prophetic fruit from Nelson or his Recent predecessors. All you point to is the hope that the fruit exists, because of how their words make you feel.

Laman and Lemuel received no witness even when they had all of the evidence you are claiming that would have changed the reality of their situation. Nephi on the other hand said I will go and DO! And incidentally when he said this he was following the Lord but through the voice of a prophet. That is why he received more and that contributed to his own relationship with the Lord. That is what I am saying.

Your not trying to convince me I’m experiencing a witness as I listen to the counsel and act on it. At this point your only trying to convince yourself which will prove meaningless until you start to make your relationship with Christ and the gathering of Israel on both sides of the veil priority and start DOING something besides looking for answers on a forum that won’t really satisfy your issues.

Many on this forum won’t receive the witness if they disqualify themselves through unbelief, unworthiness, and lack of action. Case in point if they stop doing temple and family work and missionary work but instead bash on the leaders with there time they will be continuously be found wanting.

Interesting that you bring up Laman and Lemuel, two of the biggest church appologist in scripture. Truth is everytime you post something I think of Laman and Lemuel. What sucks for them is if they had lived today they would be the perfect abiding latter day saint apologist. They could believe exactly as they did back in the day and all would be well in todays world. The problem was false traditions. They believed in everything you believe in today, and not even a angel of God could distract them from their long held false beliefs. Lamen and Lemuel followed the precieved prophets of their day, and by doing so failed to see that there crazy visionary old father was in fact a true prophet of God.

1 Nephi 17:22 And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words…

How dare Lehi judge the prophets and the church of God. No doubt Laman and Lemuel believe what we blieve today. The differance is... our prophets (we cannot be led astray) and the church is more righeous than theirs. And what was the church busy doing during this time? Buliding temples. Go figure. It's also interesting that everytime Jeremiah brings up "prophets" he is always refearing to false prophets. I believe Lehi's and Jeremiahs day is very reminiscent of our own, but with current beliefs we cannot even be open to that possbility.

[drtanner]

And yet I don’t base my testimony off of what any of them have done rather I how I have been transformed as a result of doing what they have invited. Until you understand this principle you will continue to grapple and waste time.

Based on your logic a Catholic who religiously follows every word of the Pope and feels transformed because of it can be sure that he really is the spokesman of God upon the earth.

Same goes for those who follow Denver Snuffer.

This is not the prophetic fruit Christ was talking about.

Your speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

On the one hand You say that it doesn't matter what someone says, only what they do when pushed into a corner. Then when pushed into the other corner you say that it doesn't matter what people do only how they make others feel.

You can't have it both ways.

Jesus said, "by their fruits ye shall know them." You have yet to point to a single prophetic fruit from Nelson or his Recent predecessors. All you point to is the hope that the fruit exists, because of how their words make you feel.

Laman and Lemuel received no witness even when they had all of the evidence you are claiming that would have changed the reality of their situation. Nephi on the other hand said I will go and DO! And incidentally when he said this he was following the Lord but through the voice of a prophet. That is why he received more and that contributed to his own relationship with the Lord. That is what I am saying.

Your not trying to convince me I’m experiencing a witness as I listen to the counsel and act on it. At this point your only trying to convince yourself which will prove meaningless until you start to make your relationship with Christ and the gathering of Israel on both sides of the veil priority and start DOING something besides looking for answers on a forum that won’t really satisfy your issues.

Many on this forum won’t receive the witness if they disqualify themselves through unbelief, unworthiness, and lack of action. Case in point if they stop doing temple and family work and missionary work but instead bash on the leaders with there time they will be continuously be found wanting.

Interesting that you bring up Laman and Lemuel, two of the biggest church appologist in scripture. Truth is everytime you post something I think of Laman and Lemuel. What sucks for them is if they had lived today they would be the perfect abiding latter day saint apologist. They could believe exactly as they did back in the day and all would be well in todays world. The problem was false traditions. They believed in everything you believe in today, and not even a angel of God could distract them from their long held false beliefs. Lamen and Lemuel followed the precieved prophets of their day, and by doing so failed to see that there crazy visionary old father was in fact a true prophet of God.

1 Nephi 17:22 And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words…

How dare Lehi judge the prophets and the church of God. No doubt Laman and Lemuel believe what we blieve today. The differance is... our prophets (we cannot be led astray) and the church is more righeous than theirs. And what was the church busy doing during this time? Buliding temples. Go figure. It's also interesting that everytime Jeremiah brings up "prophets" he is always refearing to false prophets. I believe Lehi's and Jeremiahs day is very reminiscent of our own, but with current beliefs we cannot even be open to that possbility.

This is a lizard tail. We don’t know the interaction and dynamics of Lehi and Jeremiah.

And the label “apologist” is another tactic to try and water down and discredit the true principles being discussed.

[topcat]

And yet I don’t base my testimony off of what any of them have done rather I how I have been transformed as a result of doing what they have invited. Until you understand this principle you will continue to grapple and waste time.

Based on your logic a Catholic who religiously follows every word of the Pope and feels transformed because of it can be sure that he really is the spokesman of God upon the earth.

Same goes for those who follow Denver Snuffer.

This is not the prophetic fruit Christ was talking about.

Your speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

On the one hand You say that it doesn't matter what someone says, only what they do when pushed into a corner. Then when pushed into the other corner you say that it doesn't matter what people do only how they make others feel.

You can't have it both ways.

Jesus said, "by their fruits ye shall know them." You have yet to point to a single prophetic fruit from Nelson or his Recent predecessors. All you point to is the hope that the fruit exists, because of how their words make you feel.

Laman and Lemuel received no witness even when they had all of the evidence you are claiming that would have changed the reality of their situation. Nephi on the other hand said I will go and DO! And incidentally when he said this he was following the Lord but through the voice of a prophet. That is why he received more and that contributed to his own relationship with the Lord. That is what I am saying.

Your not trying to convince me I’m experiencing a witness as I listen to the counsel and act on it. At this point your only trying to convince yourself which will prove meaningless until you start to make your relationship with Christ and the gathering of Israel on both sides of the veil priority and start DOING something besides looking for answers on a forum that won’t really satisfy your issues.

Many on this forum won’t receive the witness if they disqualify themselves through unbelief, unworthiness, and lack of action. Case in point if they stop doing temple and family work and missionary work but instead bash on the leaders with there time they will be continuously be found wanting.

Interesting that you bring up Laman and Lemuel, two of the biggest church appologist in scripture. Truth is everytime you post something I think of Laman and Lemuel. What sucks for them is if they had lived today they would be the perfect abiding latter day saint apologist. They could believe exactly as they did back in the day and all would be well in todays world. The problem was false traditions. They believed in everything you believe in today, and not even a angel of God could distract them from their long held false beliefs. Lamen and Lemuel followed the precieved prophets of their day, and by doing so failed to see that there crazy visionary old father was in fact a true prophet of God.

1 Nephi 17:22 And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words…

How dare Lehi judge the prophets and the church of God. No doubt Laman and Lemuel believe what we blieve today. The differance is... our prophets (we cannot be led astray) and the church is more righeous than theirs. And what was the church busy doing during this time? Buliding temples. Go figure. It's also interesting that everytime Jeremiah brings up "prophets" he is always refearing to false prophets. I believe Lehi's and Jeremiahs day is very reminiscent of our own, but with current beliefs we cannot even be open to that possbility.

SempiEternalHarbinger,

What undoubtedly the mainstream Mormon would feel about you likening them to Laman and Lemuel is that you are off your rocker, and talking crazy stuff. The mainstream Mormon would identify with Nephi and Lehi. They reason, if there's anything we mainstream Mormons are good at doing, it's following the prophet, so we would have followed Lehi out of Jerusalem while most all of Jerusalem rejected him. To suggest that we would have rejected Lehi is nuts!

I did a quick search and found that the word "prophets" is mentioned 42 times in the book of Jeremiah, and sure enough, the vast majority of cases it was referring to false prophets, but the people believed them! Laman and Lemuel were two that believed them.

But going back to the mainstream LDS view that they're good at "following the prophet," the question to ask would be. Would they have followed the false prophets in Jerusalem, or a true prophet in Lehi?

The fact is almost ALL rejected Lehi. On what basis did they reject Lehi, and on what basis did the people of Jerusalem follow the false prophets?

The "truth" for mainstream LDS is that they KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are not deceived and that Pres Nelson is a true prophet. With this presumption, it is nigh impossible for them to consider they might be misled, even if Jeremiah drops a bombshell like this:

I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

Jeremiah 23:14

[Zathura]

Imagine preaching "By their fruits shall ye know them" over and over and then refusing to apply the same logic to your heroes.

Everyone else that you despise is judged by their fruits or lack thereof but not your heroes. Somehow they are an exception to the rule. Everyone else must prove themselves with fruit but your heroes don't have to bear fruit to prove themselves, others must instead disprove them.

?? I don't even..??

I have to respectfully disagree. There are people making claims that he is not a prophet. Then they must put forth their evidences to that such is the case. What scriptural basis they have to make that claim? If it is not difficult to do, then why have those who claim he is not a prophet fail to change the minds of those who believe President Nelson is a prophet?

In other words, Nelson doesn't have to bear fruit to prove himself a prophet, which is what is expected of literally everyone else. Instead, others must disprove him through some other means.

[Robin Hood]

I have the feeling that something is off with her. Like she's not all there.

Me too!
In fact, she gives me the creeps... and I don't know why.
Can't stand the woman. I know that sounds harsh, but there is something about her which is not right, something which is very not right.

Based on what?

Did you not read what wrote?

[drtanner]

I have the feeling that something is off with her. Like she's not all there.

Me too!
In fact, she gives me the creeps... and I don't know why.
Can't stand the woman. I know that sounds harsh, but there is something about her which is not right, something which is very not right.

Based on what?

Did you not read what wrote?

That you don’t know why?

[drtanner]

Imagine preaching "By their fruits shall ye know them" over and over and then refusing to apply the same logic to your heroes.

Everyone else that you despise is judged by their fruits or lack thereof but not your heroes. Somehow they are an exception to the rule. Everyone else must prove themselves with fruit but your heroes don't have to bear fruit to prove themselves, others must instead disprove them.

?? I don't even..??

I have to respectfully disagree. There are people making claims that he is not a prophet. Then they must put forth their evidences to that such is the case. What scriptural basis they have to make that claim? If it is not difficult to do, then why have those who claim he is not a prophet fail to change the minds of those who believe President Nelson is a prophet?

In other words, Nelson doesn't have to bear fruit to prove himself a prophet, which is what is expected of literally everyone else. Instead, others must disprove him through some other means.

Did Christ’s miracles prove that he was Christ for you?

[Thinker]

A lot of what has been mentioned can apply to most presidents of the church for the last 100+ years. One thing that has made Nelson stand out is his involvement in a court case that seems to have been silenced. To me, that in itself is reason that he is not a prophet to follow. Yet, to each his own.

Miles charges were mysteriously dismissed despite Bill Cartensen admitting to being one of the perpetrator along with Brenda Miles (Nelson’s daughter), who was “mostly the cheerleeder and took the videos” during the sexual abuse “parties.” (p. 15 & 20)
http://www.restoreourhumanity.org/files/ABlipHere.pdf

[topcat]

A lot of what has been mentioned can apply to most presidents of the church for the last 100+ years. One thing that has made Nelson stand out is his involvement in a court case that seems to have been silenced. To me, that in itself is reason that he is not a prophet to follow. Yet, to each his own.

What court case are you referring to?

[Thinker]

A lot of what has been mentioned can apply to most presidents of the church for the last 100+ years. One thing that has made Nelson stand out is his involvement in a court case that seems to have been silenced. To me, that in itself is reason that he is not a prophet to follow. Yet, to each his own.

What court case are you referring to?

Sorry, I just edited to add...
Mile’s charges were mysteriously dismissed despite Bill Cartensen admitting to being one of the perpetrator along with Brenda Miles (Nelson’s daughter), who was “mostly the cheerleeder and took the videos” during the sexual abuse “parties.” (p. 15 & 20)
http://www.restoreourhumanity.org/files/ABlipHere.pdf

[Zathura]

Imagine preaching "By their fruits shall ye know them" over and over and then refusing to apply the same logic to your heroes.

Everyone else that you despise is judged by their fruits or lack thereof but not your heroes. Somehow they are an exception to the rule. Everyone else must prove themselves with fruit but your heroes don't have to bear fruit to prove themselves, others must instead disprove them.

?? I don't even..??

I have to respectfully disagree. There are people making claims that he is not a prophet. Then they must put forth their evidences to that such is the case. What scriptural basis they have to make that claim? If it is not difficult to do, then why have those who claim he is not a prophet fail to change the minds of those who believe President Nelson is a prophet?

In other words, Nelson doesn't have to bear fruit to prove himself a prophet, which is what is expected of literally everyone else. Instead, others must disprove him through some other means.

Did Christ’s miracles prove that he was Christ for you?

One of Christ's miracles did indeed instill in me a knowledge that he is Christ, for I cried out to Jesus Christ, the Son of God for a remission of my sins, and I was filled with Fire and the Holy Ghost and received precisely what I sought.. As a result of this miracle, this manifestation of the power of God, this gift of the Holy Ghost, it was proven to me that he is Christ.

This is literally the purpose of the gifts of the spirit and miracles. It's not sign seeking. It's anti-mormon to discourage the seeking out of the gifts of the Spirit like you and others do here. It's only sign seeking if you have evil intent and malice in your heart.

6 For behold, God hath said a man being aevil cannot do that which is good; for if he boffereth a gift, or cprayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real dintent it profiteth him nothing.

7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.

8 For behold, if a man being aevil giveth a gift, he doeth it bgrudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.

9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with areal intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.

11 For behold, a bitter afountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he bfollow Christ he cannot be a cservant of the devil.

12 Wherefore, all things which are agood cometh of God; and that which is bevil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to csin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do agood continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and benticeth to do cgood, and to love God, and to serve him, is dinspired of God.

14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is aevil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to ajudge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

[MMbelieve]

What exactly is he pretending?

No prophet in our dispensation compares to Joseph. Pretty sure they all know this because of how they speak of him.
Joseph’s duties and callings were unique. Comparing other men to him is quite unfair and unjust as they are not charged with the same duties. Abraham is the father of the Abrahamic covenant, do we compare all prophets against him? If they are not all fathers of covenants themselves? No, we do not. Joseph restored a religion! Do we expect every prophet after him to do such a thing? No.

Nelson is a good man and he’s likely doing what his duties and callings are for him. He takes these things seriously and that makes him a noble man in my eyes.

I’m honestly not surprised that the prophet and apostles are being figuratively placed at the stake in this world of wicked people who are advocates for the devils work. Not surprising at all!

Pretender may have been a little harsh and probably not the right word I was looking for. Regardless, just because millions of good folks sustain President Nelson as a prophet, seer, and revelator doesn't mean he is one. They are simply titles that have been slowly forged into a golden crown only fitting for a king. What happened to by their fruits ye shall know them?

I am also not comparing President Nelson to just Joseph Smith, but all the prophets of old and he fails on all accounts. One of literally a hundred examples... King Benjamin Is one of my favorite leaders who exhibits many incredible qualities/attributes of a great leader (most great leaders have in common). The one that comes to mind is he hated praises of the world. From the records we have he "rejected all praise". But he didn't just he reject praise, but he rightfully taught where all our praise and energy should be placed, God.

Mosiah 2;19 And behold also, if I, whom ye call your king, who has spent his days in your service, and yet has been in the service of God, do merit any thanks from you, O how you ought to thank your heavenly King!

20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another.

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

So my question is have you ever heard President Nelson deflect any attention, praise, and admiration? Has he ever pointed where all our praise truly belongs? No, in my mind, he clearly loves all the attention. Have you seen him giving out pictures of himself with a big smile? Who does that? Have you seen his reaction to seeing photos of himself? Like a kid in a candy store. The first couple conferences after the passing of President Monson was a complete love feast for the "prophet" and I don't even think Nelson blinked one single time. Hail to the prophet! Everyone is setting him up as a light to the world and I get the sense he is eating it all up buffet style. Not I, not my style.

2 nephi 29 He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.

Can anyone show one a single sermon from RML on Zion? I am told that is not his responsibility. I have heard many talks from RML, but not a single sermon of the likes of Joseph or King Benjamin. Just nice feel good talks.

And I really don't know what your talking about when you say, "that the prophet and apostles are being figuratively placed at the stake in this world of wicked people who are advocates for the devils work." Huh?? President Nelson is a star/celebrity, he has sold out some of the biggest sporting stadiums in this world. He is loved and admired by millions. The hate/negativity he gets is no worse than any celebrity/star/organization gets. I am sure Tom Brady and the Patriots, Lebron James and the Lakers get more hate than President Nelson and the brethren receive. No wonder Satan is compared to a star. But what does it matter when you got millions of followers. All the stars of this world get the same treatment as RMN and all the brethren. And guess what, he is as untouchable and unapproachable as the rest of the stars of this world. We small folks are beneath the stars of this world. President Nelson also doesn't have a care in this world. He is set for life. He could sell everything he owns and give it all to the poor and he still would never have to worry about a roof over his head or food on his plate. He would still live like a king.

I have heard him direct the focus to Christ and I have heard him honor Joseph Smith.

It’s really difficult when people say that he’s a phony or not really anointed in his calling, I wonder if they listen to him when he speaks to the church. I have never heard him praise himself.

When someone comes into the spot light they are criticized more, Nelson is expected to be nearly perfected these days it seems.

You honestly sound either bitter or bitter and jealous. Sure you can say your not but I’m not buying it. The only time I hear people point out how someone has it made, they are jealous. He has the mantle of president of a worldwide church, you bet he has tons of “cares” in this world and carries a great responsibility. Would you trade with him if it meant you would have your temporal needs met without worry?

I would love your list of a hundred examples that Nelson fails on.

Lol, jealous... nah. From where I sit and my upbringing, there is nothing to be jealous of. I am more of the fisherman type. I could care less about his fame, money, houses, education, degrees ( robes of the false priesthood), accolades, his administrative and management skills. None of it appease me. But good for him and all his worldy sucess. Really! As for myself, I love my simplistic life. I sure don't need anyone telling me everyday me how great and amazing I am. I have always loathed praise and the honors of men.

I also never said he praises himself, I said he has never once has rejected the praises of the world and he sure seems to love it all. Complete opposite of King Benjamin, a true leader who rejected all praise. It was just one of many examples of how President Nelson falls short of being a leader. I will however not question his managment/administration skills, they are superb!!

Well if Nelson was a King...
but he’s not.

Basically your saying he’s not like you and not like King Benjamin? So what.
The only thing that concerns me is your statement of “robes of the false priesthood”.

Okay...so what is your purpose here?

[nightlight]

Imagine preaching "By their fruits shall ye know them" over and over and then refusing to apply the same logic to your heroes.

Everyone else that you despise is judged by their fruits or lack thereof but not your heroes. Somehow they are an exception to the rule. Everyone else must prove themselves with fruit but your heroes don't have to bear fruit to prove themselves, others must instead disprove them.

?? I don't even..??

I have to respectfully disagree. There are people making claims that he is not a prophet. Then they must put forth their evidences to that such is the case. What scriptural basis they have to make that claim? If it is not difficult to do, then why have those who claim he is not a prophet fail to change the minds of those who believe President Nelson is a prophet?

In other words, Nelson doesn't have to bear fruit to prove himself a prophet, which is what is expected of literally everyone else. Instead, others must disprove him through some other means.

Did Christ’s miracles prove that he was Christ for you?

Remember....this was AFTER John baptized Him..........................

18 And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things.

19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.

22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

24 And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

25 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts.

26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet.

27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he

[Connie561]

Imagine preaching "By their fruits shall ye know them" over and over and then refusing to apply the same logic to your heroes.

Everyone else that you despise is judged by their fruits or lack thereof but not your heroes. Somehow they are an exception to the rule. Everyone else must prove themselves with fruit but your heroes don't have to bear fruit to prove themselves, others must instead disprove them.

?? I don't even..??

I have to respectfully disagree. There are people making claims that he is not a prophet. Then they must put forth their evidences to that such is the case. What scriptural basis they have to make that claim? If it is not difficult to do, then why have those who claim he is not a prophet fail to change the minds of those who believe President Nelson is a prophet?

In other words, Nelson doesn't have to bear fruit to prove himself a prophet, which is what is expected of literally everyone else. Instead, others must disprove him through some other means.

Article of Faith 11 basically says we allow people to worship God according to the dictates of the own conscience. If you want to disqualify President Nelson based on your own moral code, well that is between you and God. If you are a member of the church than you would allow me the same privilege to follow President Nelson based on the 11th Article of Faith.

I put forth a couple reasons why I follow President Nelson. I have not read anything yet on this thread, that has changed my mind on the subject. I need to study the subject more about this last days prophet some people are referring too. I plan to do that in my own time and to take my time when I do. I thank you for your post.

[drtanner]

Imagine preaching "By their fruits shall ye know them" over and over and then refusing to apply the same logic to your heroes.

Everyone else that you despise is judged by their fruits or lack thereof but not your heroes. Somehow they are an exception to the rule. Everyone else must prove themselves with fruit but your heroes don't have to bear fruit to prove themselves, others must instead disprove them.

?? I don't even..??

I have to respectfully disagree. There are people making claims that he is not a prophet. Then they must put forth their evidences to that such is the case. What scriptural basis they have to make that claim? If it is not difficult to do, then why have those who claim he is not a prophet fail to change the minds of those who believe President Nelson is a prophet?

In other words, Nelson doesn't have to bear fruit to prove himself a prophet, which is what is expected of literally everyone else. Instead, others must disprove him through some other means.

Did Christ’s miracles prove that he was Christ for you?

One of Christ's miracles did indeed instill in me a knowledge that he is Christ, for I cried out to Jesus Christ, the Son of God for a remission of my sins, and I was filled with Fire and the Holy Ghost and received precisely what I sought.. As a result of this miracle, this manifestation of the power of God, this gift of the Holy Ghost, it was proven to me that he is Christ.

This is literally the purpose of the gifts of the spirit and miracles. It's not sign seeking. It's anti-mormon to discourage the seeking out of the gifts of the Spirit like you and others do here. It's only sign seeking if you have evil intent and malice in your heart.

6 For behold, God hath said a man being aevil cannot do that which is good; for if he boffereth a gift, or cprayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real dintent it profiteth him nothing.

7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.

8 For behold, if a man being aevil giveth a gift, he doeth it bgrudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.

9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with areal intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.

11 For behold, a bitter afountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he bfollow Christ he cannot be a cservant of the devil.

12 Wherefore, all things which are agood cometh of God; and that which is bevil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to csin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do agood continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and benticeth to do cgood, and to love God, and to serve him, is dinspired of God.

14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is aevil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to ajudge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

Yes you received because you experimented on his words. That is how anyone will really know independently.

[topcat]

A lot of what has been mentioned can apply to most presidents of the church for the last 100+ years. One thing that has made Nelson stand out is his involvement in a court case that seems to have been silenced. To me, that in itself is reason that he is not a prophet to follow. Yet, to each his own.

What court case are you referring to?

Sorry, I just edited to add...
Mile’s charges were mysteriously dismissed despite Bill Cartensen admitting to being one of the perpetrator along with Brenda Miles (Nelson’s daughter), who was “mostly the cheerleeder and took the videos” during the sexual abuse “parties.” (p. 15 & 20)
http://www.restoreourhumanity.org/files/ABlipHere.pdf

I just read that 33-page document.

Undoubtedly this is connected to the satanic ritual abuse which is well-documented by Elder Pace in the Pace Memo.

On a personal note, in that document you linked to, Hartman Rector is mentioned.

He was a convert. He was a general authority as well. I once met his son when I was new convert, and I went on gushing about how cool it must be to have a father who is a GA. I undoubtedly was in the category of basically worshipping the leaders. I asked him what's it like.

His son told me that one message he got from his father was that the general authorities are just regular fallible men to not be put on a pedestal in any way.

Little did I know that probably right around this time Hartman Rector was trying to get some justice for these abused children and was flat-out being told to shut up by the Brethren.

[Zathura]

Imagine preaching "By their fruits shall ye know them" over and over and then refusing to apply the same logic to your heroes.

Everyone else that you despise is judged by their fruits or lack thereof but not your heroes. Somehow they are an exception to the rule. Everyone else must prove themselves with fruit but your heroes don't have to bear fruit to prove themselves, others must instead disprove them.

?? I don't even..??

I have to respectfully disagree. There are people making claims that he is not a prophet. Then they must put forth their evidences to that such is the case. What scriptural basis they have to make that claim? If it is not difficult to do, then why have those who claim he is not a prophet fail to change the minds of those who believe President Nelson is a prophet?

In other words, Nelson doesn't have to bear fruit to prove himself a prophet, which is what is expected of literally everyone else. Instead, others must disprove him through some other means.

Article of Faith 11 basically says we allow people to worship God according to the dictates of the own conscience. If you want to disqualify President Nelson based on your own moral code, well that is between you and God. If you are a member of the church than you would allow me the same privilege to follow President Nelson based on the 11th Article of Faith.

I put forth a couple reasons why I follow President Nelson. I have not read anything yet on this thread, that has changed my mind on the subject. I need to study the subject more about this last days prophet some people are referring too. I plan to do that in my own time and to take my time when I do. I thank you for your post.

I never gave any opinion on Nelson in this thread, elsewhere I've said he's probably one of my top 4 favorites to have been in his position. I just think it's strange that he's held to a different standard than everyone else.

[LDS Watchman]

Well, we're now 8 pages into this discussion and not one person has been able to share even a single fruit of prophecy, revelation, or seership from President Nelson.

Hard to maintain the belief that we are being led by continuing revelation when no one can point to a single revelation, prophecy, or vision from President Nelson or any of his predecessors over at least the last 100 years.

[Zathura]

Imagine preaching "By their fruits shall ye know them" over and over and then refusing to apply the same logic to your heroes.

Everyone else that you despise is judged by their fruits or lack thereof but not your heroes. Somehow they are an exception to the rule. Everyone else must prove themselves with fruit but your heroes don't have to bear fruit to prove themselves, others must instead disprove them.

?? I don't even..??



In other words, Nelson doesn't have to bear fruit to prove himself a prophet, which is what is expected of literally everyone else. Instead, others must disprove him through some other means.

Did Christ’s miracles prove that he was Christ for you?

One of Christ's miracles did indeed instill in me a knowledge that he is Christ, for I cried out to Jesus Christ, the Son of God for a remission of my sins, and I was filled with Fire and the Holy Ghost and received precisely what I sought.. As a result of this miracle, this manifestation of the power of God, this gift of the Holy Ghost, it was proven to me that he is Christ.

This is literally the purpose of the gifts of the spirit and miracles. It's not sign seeking. It's anti-mormon to discourage the seeking out of the gifts of the Spirit like you and others do here. It's only sign seeking if you have evil intent and malice in your heart.

6 For behold, God hath said a man being aevil cannot do that which is good; for if he boffereth a gift, or cprayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real dintent it profiteth him nothing.

7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.

8 For behold, if a man being aevil giveth a gift, he doeth it bgrudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.

9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with areal intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.

11 For behold, a bitter afountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he bfollow Christ he cannot be a cservant of the devil.

12 Wherefore, all things which are agood cometh of God; and that which is bevil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to csin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do agood continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and benticeth to do cgood, and to love God, and to serve him, is dinspired of God.

14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is aevil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to ajudge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

Yes you received because you experimented on his words. That is how anyone will really know independently.

There are external signs visible to the masses that serve the same purpose as my personal experience did. Those are the fruits expected of prophets, those are the fruits of the prophets in every canon book of scripture. The proper response would be to simply acknowledge that it is a good point, that such fruit is not present, and move on. It doesn't conclusively prove or disprove anything, what it would do is advance and encourage honest discussion, which benefits everyone.

[topcat]

Imagine preaching "By their fruits shall ye know them" over and over and then refusing to apply the same logic to your heroes.

Everyone else that you despise is judged by their fruits or lack thereof but not your heroes. Somehow they are an exception to the rule. Everyone else must prove themselves with fruit but your heroes don't have to bear fruit to prove themselves, others must instead disprove them.

?? I don't even..??

I have to respectfully disagree. There are people making claims that he is not a prophet. Then they must put forth their evidences to that such is the case. What scriptural basis they have to make that claim? If it is not difficult to do, then why have those who claim he is not a prophet fail to change the minds of those who believe President Nelson is a prophet?

In other words, Nelson doesn't have to bear fruit to prove himself a prophet, which is what is expected of literally everyone else. Instead, others must disprove him through some other means.

Article of Faith 11 basically says we allow people to worship God according to the dictates of the own conscience. If you want to disqualify President Nelson based on your own moral code, well that is between you and God. If you are a member of the church than you would allow me the same privilege to follow President Nelson based on the 11th Article of Faith.

I put forth a couple reasons why I follow President Nelson. I have not read anything yet on this thread, that has changed my mind on the subject. I need to study the subject more about this last days prophet some people are referring too. I plan to do that in my own time and to take my time when I do. I thank you for your post.

Connie,

I think most would agree with you on this freedom forum that you are free to worship God according to your own dictates. We are trying to persuade each other to what we feel is the truth.

One thing I wanted to point out to you is a logical fallacy you are using, by supporting a question which asks people to provide evidence that he, President Nelson, is not a true prophet. This is called an informal logical fallacy or presupposition fallacy or loaded question fallacy. It has many names.

Your question is a logical fallacy, since there is an issue with the premise of such questions, and specifically with the information that they presuppose.

You presuppose that he is a true prophet.

I doubt you are using this in an attempt to set people up here, as is frequently done by reporters when interviewing politicians for example.

The famous example is, You don't beat your wife anymore?

The presupposition is that the man beat his wife.

You are presupposing that President Nelson is a true prophet.

You say you've read this thread and are not convinced on the subject.

Let me ask you this straight up, and I think this is the crux of the matter: what does President Nelson claim to be a revelation? In other words, what is his fruit?

If you yourself cannot come up even with one example of a revelation that he has published oh, something that he says the Lord gave him and it was a bust saith the Lord type of Revelation, then would that not convince you that there is no fruit?


And if there is no fruit, the appropriate question would be, then why do people think he's a prophet?

I've answered that in previous comments, and it's because rank-and-file members and other members of the apostleship SAY he is a prophet. It's a type of gaslighting that is going on, and people hear that "testimony" thousands of times and just begin to believe it's true even though there is no fruit to speak of.

I would love to hear your thoughts on what his fruit is, even one example please.

Also, who is the last days prophet you are referring to?

[drtanner]

Did Christ’s miracles prove that he was Christ for you?

One of Christ's miracles did indeed instill in me a knowledge that he is Christ, for I cried out to Jesus Christ, the Son of God for a remission of my sins, and I was filled with Fire and the Holy Ghost and received precisely what I sought.. As a result of this miracle, this manifestation of the power of God, this gift of the Holy Ghost, it was proven to me that he is Christ.

This is literally the purpose of the gifts of the spirit and miracles. It's not sign seeking. It's anti-mormon to discourage the seeking out of the gifts of the Spirit like you and others do here. It's only sign seeking if you have evil intent and malice in your heart.

6 For behold, God hath said a man being aevil cannot do that which is good; for if he boffereth a gift, or cprayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real dintent it profiteth him nothing.

7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.

8 For behold, if a man being aevil giveth a gift, he doeth it bgrudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.

9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with areal intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.

11 For behold, a bitter afountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he bfollow Christ he cannot be a cservant of the devil.

12 Wherefore, all things which are agood cometh of God; and that which is bevil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to csin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do agood continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and benticeth to do cgood, and to love God, and to serve him, is dinspired of God.

14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is aevil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to ajudge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

Yes you received because you experimented on his words. That is how anyone will really know independently.

The proper response would be to simply acknowledge that it is a good point, that such fruit is not present, and move on. It doesn't conclusively prove or disprove anything, what it would do is advance and encourage honest discussion, which benefits everyone.

If I thought it was a good point. Any fruit I point out will not meet your criteria of fruit and so we are back to square one deliberating the real question. How can one know President Nelson is a true prophet?

[Zathura]

One of Christ's miracles did indeed instill in me a knowledge that he is Christ, for I cried out to Jesus Christ, the Son of God for a remission of my sins, and I was filled with Fire and the Holy Ghost and received precisely what I sought.. As a result of this miracle, this manifestation of the power of God, this gift of the Holy Ghost, it was proven to me that he is Christ.

This is literally the purpose of the gifts of the spirit and miracles. It's not sign seeking. It's anti-mormon to discourage the seeking out of the gifts of the Spirit like you and others do here. It's only sign seeking if you have evil intent and malice in your heart.

Yes you received because you experimented on his words. That is how anyone will really know independently.

The proper response would be to simply acknowledge that it is a good point, that such fruit is not present, and move on. It doesn't conclusively prove or disprove anything, what it would do is advance and encourage honest discussion, which benefits everyone.

If I thought it was a good point. Any fruit I point out will not meet your criteria of fruit and so we are back to square one deliberating the real question. How can one know President Nelson is a true prophet?

Were it Denver Snuffer, you'd point at his fruit , but with Nelson you ignore fruit and revert to the standard "revelation" answer. Why does everyone point at Denver's fruit and not an answer by the Holy Ghost when trying to disprove Denver but they point to the Holy Ghost and not fruit in regards to Nelson.

Surely you see the issue here. The double standard.

[drtanner]

Yes you received because you experimented on his words. That is how anyone will really know independently.

The proper response would be to simply acknowledge that it is a good point, that such fruit is not present, and move on. It doesn't conclusively prove or disprove anything, what it would do is advance and encourage honest discussion, which benefits everyone.

If I thought it was a good point. Any fruit I point out will not meet your criteria of fruit and so we are back to square one deliberating the real question. How can one know President Nelson is a true prophet?

Were it Denver Snuffer, you'd point at his fruit , but with Nelson you ignore fruit and revert to the standard "revelation" answer. Why does everyone point at Denver's fruit and not an answer by the Holy Ghost when trying to disprove Denver but they point to the Holy Ghost and not fruit in regards to Nelson.

Surely you see the issue here. The double standard.

No, again I point to the fruit and the revelation. You just don’t agree with what the fruit is.

[topcat]

One of Christ's miracles did indeed instill in me a knowledge that he is Christ, for I cried out to Jesus Christ, the Son of God for a remission of my sins, and I was filled with Fire and the Holy Ghost and received precisely what I sought.. As a result of this miracle, this manifestation of the power of God, this gift of the Holy Ghost, it was proven to me that he is Christ.

This is literally the purpose of the gifts of the spirit and miracles. It's not sign seeking. It's anti-mormon to discourage the seeking out of the gifts of the Spirit like you and others do here. It's only sign seeking if you have evil intent and malice in your heart.

Yes you received because you experimented on his words. That is how anyone will really know independently.

The proper response would be to simply acknowledge that it is a good point, that such fruit is not present, and move on. It doesn't conclusively prove or disprove anything, what it would do is advance and encourage honest discussion, which benefits everyone.

If I thought it was a good point. Any fruit I point out will not meet your criteria of fruit and so we are back to square one deliberating the real question. How can one know President Nelson is a true prophet?

d.r.tanner,

So you are wanting to debate the meaning of the word fruit. That might be a fair question, but it seems every time you get cornered (by your own doing) you start debating the meaning of terms and trying to find an out by saying we can't agree on terms, and then you deflect to another subject of you're choosing, and then repeat the process. Remember from the 1990's, the word "is" doesn't mean "is," as Bill Clinton famously said with a straight face when he was being impeached for the innocuous crime of sex with an intern. I do agree that definitions are important, but to object to meanings when one is losing ground in a debate calls into question one's motives. I'm just mentioning this because you've done this over and over through the years, instead of acknowledging the obvious and moving on.

But let's have it your way, once again.... What is an agreeable definition of "fruit"?

Jesus says to judge the "prophet" by his fruit. So we need to look at his fruit.

What is your criteria for fruit? What do you believe fruit is?

You feel there is an unresolvable hurdle in agreeing on what "fruit" is, so you want to skip to how to determine if the fruit is of Christ or not. And then you want to debate the "how to" question, as well, which is a question far more subject to private interpretation than the "what is fruit" question.

Surely we can agree to what a prophet's "fruit" is, taking the Scriptures to be our guide. Wouldn't you agree?

What do the true prophets have as their fruit? Let's look at whom we regard as true prophets through history.

Adam
Moses
Abraham
Isaac
Jacob
Isaiah
Hosea
Exekiel
Jeremiah
Peter
Paul
Jesus
Joseph Smith

Based on this good list of true prophets, what can we agree their fruit is?

I think most people would agree initially that what a person does is his fruit. So "fruit" is his works.

Works include just about everything a person ever does, and could be categorized into two groups: 1) Deeds (miracles, things accomplished) and his thoughts (his message, his philosophy, his words).

As far as miracles performed, I think we can rule that out as an acceptable standard because the devil can and does perform miracles. As far as other non-miracle "deeds", like life's accomplishments, I'm not inspired that these rise to the level of a man's fruits. He may have been a great football player, or doctor, or statesman, or humanitarian, or musician, etc. but so often the devil's minions excel in worldly pursuits. We must rule out worldy deeds. Are there any "spiritual" deeds to consider that are not "miracles"? The only thing I can think of is the recording of a man's thoughts.

So I believe it makes sense that a prophet's "fruit" must necessarily be his official "message" he declares. Not necessarily everything he's ever said or written, per se, but what he says is GOD'S message given by proxy through the prophet.

d.r.tanner, do you agree? How would you like to debate this?

How about other folks here? Please chime in.

What is the "fruit" of a prophet?

Would this definition apply to every prophet on the list above, and any other scriptural prophet you can think of?

[Connie561]

Imagine preaching "By their fruits shall ye know them" over and over and then refusing to apply the same logic to your heroes.

Everyone else that you despise is judged by their fruits or lack thereof but not your heroes. Somehow they are an exception to the rule. Everyone else must prove themselves with fruit but your heroes don't have to bear fruit to prove themselves, others must instead disprove them.

?? I don't even..??

I have to respectfully disagree. There are people making claims that he is not a prophet. Then they must put forth their evidences to that such is the case. What scriptural basis they have to make that claim? If it is not difficult to do, then why have those who claim he is not a prophet fail to change the minds of those who believe President Nelson is a prophet?

In other words, Nelson doesn't have to bear fruit to prove himself a prophet, which is what is expected of literally everyone else. Instead, others must disprove him through some other means.

Article of Faith 11 basically says we allow people to worship God according to the dictates of the own conscience. If you want to disqualify President Nelson based on your own moral code, well that is between you and God. If you are a member of the church than you would allow me the same privilege to follow President Nelson based on the 11th Article of Faith.

I put forth a couple reasons why I follow President Nelson. I have not read anything yet on this thread, that has changed my mind on the subject. I need to study the subject more about this last days prophet some people are referring too. I plan to do that in my own time and to take my time when I do. I thank you for your post.

I never gave any opinion on Nelson in this thread, elsewhere I've said he's probably one of my top 4 favorites to have been in his position. I just think it's strange that he's held to a different standard than everyone else.

I am not a judgemental person, so I don't look at someone to see if they are doing their calling the way I think it should be done. The OP asked a question to which the way it is framed comes across as less than open-minded. I asked him about it and he claims that he is open-minded, however he spoke of a last days prophet. I wonder if he is viewing the present and future based on his belief in this last days prophet. I really don't know the answer because I never heard of this last days prophet. I find that questions about doctrines have always been a blessing in my life. I have found that as I study the answers will come and my testimony becomes stronger for it. I hope you don't feel that I raking you over the coals!