the blessing of riches in the BOM.

[drtanner]

In the Book of Mormon it says this:

17 For behold, the Lord had blessed them so long with the riches of the world....

How can a group be blessed with “riches” by the Lord and at the same time be expected to have a city of Enoch experience? Is this a contradiction or a mis-interpretation of the subjective definition of being rich?

[Bwboy]

Does wealth go against the principles of the city of Enoch?

[drtanner]

Does wealth go against the principles of the city of Enoch?

That is a great question. The definition of Zion is no poor, but that is part of the point I see in the Book of Mormon that I believe many confuse with how and what the lord blesses those who diligently strive to keep the commandments and love him and with all of their heart.

[inho]

If all are equally rich, I don't see why having riches would destroy the Zion. As long as we are equal in temporal things, we may be equal in obtainig the heavenly things (D&C 70:14, 78:5-6).
Pride and envy destroy Zion. Those are feelings that a natural man has if there is no equality.

[gardener4life]

Helaman 6:17

17 For behold, the Lord had blessed them so long with the riches of the world that they had not been stirred up to anger, to wars, nor to bloodshed; therefore they began to set their hearts upon their riches; yea, they began to seek to get gain that they might be lifted up one above another; therefore they began to commit secret murders, and to rob and to plunder, that they might get gain.

You know its cool that you brought this up drtanner. The scriptures are exciting to think about and to follow.

Here are some other verses that can be used with that one.

Helaman 13:20

20 And the day shall come that they shall hide up their treasures, because they have set their hearts upon riches; and because they have set their hearts upon their riches, and will hide up their treasures when they shall flee before their enemies; because they will not hide them up unto me, cursed be they and also their treasures; and in that day shall they be smitten, saith the Lord. (So the problem is hearts being set on riches and wealth.)

Jacob 2:13 And the hand of providence hath smiled upon you most pleasingly, that you have obtained many riches; and because some of you have obtained more abundantly than that of your brethren ye are lifted up in the pride of your hearts, and wear stiff necks and high heads because of the costliness of your apparel, and persecute your brethren because ye suppose that ye are better than they. (Pride comes into the heart because of hearts being set on riches. After pride comes in inequality and enmity come in with it.)

3 Nephi 6:10 But it came to pass in the twenty and ninth year there began to be some disputings among the people; and some were lifted up unto pride and boastings because of their exceedingly great riches, yea, even unto great persecutions. (...even unto great persecutions...that part isn't cool.)

In families, you also see a tendency of putting the cart before the horse. You see people wanting the riches and blessings without putting forth the foundation of faith and repentance first. People want to put the cart before the horse also in wanting to progress but not wanting to change and also not wanting 'CONSEQUENCES of their actions'. They want the blessings but not want to sacrifice to get them.

With pride and hearts on riches the next step is...

Alma 1:16,30....16 Nevertheless, this did not put an end to the spreading of priestcraft through the land; for there were many who loved the vain things of the world, and they went forth preaching afalse doctrines; and this they did for the sake of briches and honor. (Nehor and Korihor behaviors surface.)

Basically these types of behaviors can only be put into check by living with simple gospel principles first. Basic foundations of faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, daily prayer, sincere gospel study and yearning to be with Christ.

Also in above, there is no 'love one another' being taught with riches of the world. So the enmity part is a big part of it. Enmity puts men against each other, love brings people into a family type of setting.

Inho you said it right on when you said pride and envy destroy Zion.

drtanner we're so grateful that you were trying to be helpful to people and stir a civil good promoting discussion to help people. Also this thought is a real concern for where our society is at. If we live too long with only thinking about wealth we can forget the meaning was to build the kingdom for the life after to have a place in, not necessarily this one.

Wealth isn't against Zion, but it can't be the focus. The focus needs to be...when I wake up this morning, who does the Lord want me to help? I was also reminded of the thought Brigham Young had; he worried that latter day saints wouldn't be able to handle wealth though they'd go through hellfire, starvation, and suffering. But not wealth. I can see why this is a big concern for others and not just myself. It is a challenge...a really big challenge to not have wealth seeking pull you away from being centered on Christ.

[brianj]

The answer is easy.

Let me rephrase. Answering your question is easy. Living the necessary principles is anything but easy.

Riches are good. No, riches are great. Wealth represents freedom. Want to take the day off work, take the kids to Walt Disney World, take the wife to the Maldives, or take the wife on a mission one day? With monetary surplus, these are all opportunities you have. Without a surplus of money, these are fantasies that will never be fulfilled. In addition to giving you the freedom to live how you want and do what you want, a surplus of wealth reduces stress and worry because if something bad happens you can still pay your rent or mortgage in addition to medical copayments or whatever else the incident requires.

And the truth is that money does buy happiness. Let me repeat that.

MONEY DOES BUY HAPPINESS.

A 2009 study showed that as people earn more money, they are happier. The analysis of a 2009 nationwide survey shows that the more you earn, the happier you are up to about $75,000 per year. At that point the increase is very gradual up to an annual income of about $160,000. Adjusted for inflation, that's about $86,000 today.

Heavenly Father wants us to be happy. That's why He blesses us with wealth as we become more righteous. But He also wants to test us; that's why we're not all blessed equally, why even amidst great righteousness and wealth for the Nephites some were rich and others were in poverty. Wealth alone doesn't prove we are righteous or make us wicked. I expect that the City of Zion will have the wealthiest people who ever lived, but those worthy to live in that great city will be humble and spiritual enough to not set their hearts upon things of the world. These will be people who would give away everything they have to help other people. And for that righteousness they will be blessed with even more wealth.

[gardener4life]

Hmm go try to tell that to your bishop Brian. It might even be worth paying money to go watch.

[brianj]

Hmm go try to tell that to your bishop Brian. It might even be worth paying money to go watch.

Which part?

I have had conversations with a counselor in my stake presidency who agreed that it is true money buys happiness to a certain point and agreed that Heavenly Father wants us to be happy. I'll bet that most bishops, present or former, will have to agree that families that don't have to worry about how they will next month's rent and can afford vacations are happier than families who do worry about rent and wish they could take their kids somewhere.

Come to think of it, I have never gotten to know a bishop and found that he was a science denier, therefore I don't believe my current bishop or past bishops would argue against happiness increasing with wealth and income to a point.

Additionally, I have heard bishops discuss the negatives they observe in people who aren't willing to share what they have.

So if there is something you think I said that is wrong, or that my bishop my object to, how about having the courtesy to say exactly which of my points you have an issue with?

And in the spirit of thoroughness, here's a link to the study by Kahneman and Deaton:
http://www.pnas.org/content/107/38/16489

[gardener4life]

I think its better if you just look at what the scriptures say. Look at scriptures about what you need. Neither money, happiness, or riches address one very key element in your argument about money being able to buy happiness. And that key element is that we're not looking for pleasure happiness but eternal life happiness. The idea of seeking happiness falls short if you don't go after the idea that we're going after redemption and reconciliation with God as our goal, not happiness now. Sacrifice means giving up something you want now for something better later.

What do we need? The love of God and redemption. We don't need money. We could build the kingdom of God in other ways if we wanted. (1 Nephi Chapter 8 is great for understand what's really going on here. We have references of the saints of God trying to gain the fruit of the tree of life. The fruit is more clearly defined as the love of God than it is happiness.)

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/1-ne/8?lang=eng

11 And it came to pass that I did go forth and partake of the fruit thereof; and I beheld that it was most sweet, above all that I ever before tasted. Yea, and I beheld that the fruit thereof was white, to exceed all the whiteness that I had ever seen. 12 And as I partook of the fruit thereof it filled my soul with exceedingly great joy; wherefore, I began to be desirous that my family should partake of it also; for I knew that it was desirable above all other fruit.

26 And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth. 27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.(the people in the great and spaceous building brought ruin upon themselves. But they mocked truth and rejected it while seeking the things of the world. Exceedingly fine clothes, power, riches, money, and immorality were the things that they sought. They started by seeking fleeting temporal pleasure, but they called it happiness.)
33 And great was the multitude that did enter into that strange building. And after they did enter into that building they did point the finger of scorn at me and those that were partaking of the fruit also; but we heeded them not. (There are more that seek these things. Why? Because seeking the love of God and redemption isn't easy. You have to sacrifice for it. Salvation isn't easy or cheap.)
24 And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree. (Keeping hold of the iron rod isn't easy. It's hard. That's why what you are trying to teach is dangerous. It will confuse the youth. They don't understand yet that life is hard and so is enduring to the end. So if you teach money is happiness you will ruin others' lives.)

Also the idea that you teach money can buy happiness is EXACTLY what Sherem and Nehor types taught. He started with the same thought and then started to slide fast down to what became his end. Without a thorough grounding in the bedrock gospel of the end goal being seeking redemption through Christ he wasn't able to put away the foolish idea of temporal pleasures. He taught that people should seek fine clothing, money, and riches as the purpose of their existence. In other words pleasures now.

You think you are clever with bringing up this idea of money buying happiness. You picked something that wasn't easy to see that's kind of in between and on the edge, thinking that nobody would be able to see a hidden justification for what it was. The problem with saying we're even seeking happiness is that you've basically given a pass on anything. You could argue that anything is OK provided it creates happiness. Satan wants to teach anything is OK, because pleasure is still in the rules. Why does he teach its in the rules? Because he teaches there is no rules because either there is no God, or tries to teach people a clever way to make an excuse for something that is wrong, to say that its still on the good side of the fence when you don't even know where the fence is. You left the fence a long time ago.

Why do I say you left the fence a long time ago? Because you didn't see we're seeking redemption and enduring to the end at the expense of sacrifice and things we don't need like distractions.

Jacob 7:

4 And he was learned, that he had a perfect knowledge of the language of the people; wherefore, he could use much flattery, and much power of speech, according to the power of the devil. (Hmm sounds like here.)
5 And he had hope to shake me from the faith, notwithstanding the many revelations and the many things which I had seen concerning these things; for I truly had seen angels, and they had ministered unto me. And also, I had heard the voice of the Lord speaking unto me in very word, from time to time; wherefore, I could not be shaken. (He thought he could come among the sheep and shake them up with his seductive flattery.)
In verse 6, he addresses the priesthood leader as his brother. He came as a wolf among the sheep pretending to be one of them.

From other places in the scriptures we're also told there is a woe upon those that teach lies.

Nehor, King Noah and others taught to be popular and seek the riches of the world. King Noah had exactly the same type of thinking as Nehor but people just don't point it out. Its necessary to show that King Noah met a bad end for following this type of thinking. In his pursuit of wealth, he took what was important as an expense to what he wanted. Nehor also had his heart so set on the things of the world that he lost his cool and was taken by the law when his rage came out against Gideon.

Alma Chapter 1:

3 And he had gone about among the people, preaching to them that which he termed to be the word of God, bearing down against the church; declaring unto the people that every priest and teacher ought to become popular; and they ought not to labor with their hands, but that they ought to be supported by the people.
4 And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.
5 And it came to pass that he did teach these things so much that many did believe on his words, even so many that they began to support him and give him money.
6 And he began to be lifted up in the pride of his heart, and to wear very costly apparel, yea, and even began to establish a church after the manner of his preaching.

I would add one final point and that is that the fact that you've told people this idea before and you and they can't really tell the difference tells you how much danger our society is in morally.







Wickedness never was happiness.

[brianj]

What do we need? The love of God and redemption. We don't need money. We could build the kingdom of God in other ways if we wanted. (1 Nephi Chapter 8 is great for understand what's really going on here. We have references of the saints of God trying to gain the fruit of the tree of life. The fruit is more clearly defined as the love of God than it is happiness.)

Also the idea that you teach money can buy happiness is EXACTLY what Sherem and Nehor types taught. He started with the same thought and then started to slide fast down to what became his end. Without a thorough grounding in the bedrock gospel of the end goal being seeking redemption through Christ he wasn't able to put away the foolish idea of temporal pleasures. He taught that people should seek fine clothing, money, and riches as the purpose of their existence. In other words pleasures now.

You think you are clever with bringing up this idea of money buying happiness. You picked something that wasn't easy to see that's kind of in between and on the edge, thinking that nobody would be able to see a hidden justification for what it was. The problem with saying we're even seeking happiness is that you've basically given a pass on anything. You could argue that anything is OK provided it creates happiness. Satan wants to teach anything is OK, because pleasure is still in the rules. Why does he teach its in the rules? Because he teaches there is no rules because either there is no God, or tries to teach people a clever way to make an excuse for something that is wrong, to say that its still on the good side of the fence when you don't even know where the fence is. You left the fence a long time ago.

Why do I say you left the fence a long time ago? Because you didn't see we're seeking redemption and enduring to the end at the expense of sacrifice and things we don't need like distractions.

I would add one final point and that is that the fact that you've told people this idea before and you and they can't really tell the difference tells you how much danger our society is in morally.

I am issuing a challenge. Choose a Sunday. On that Sunday evening, leave your home and your family until the following Saturday. Leave all your possessions behind except for clothing, ID, and your medical insurance card. For not even one full week, try living without any money. Don't let anybody spend money on you. See how happy you are. For extra happiness, choose to go out when it's unusually cold.

I'm willing to bet you have never been homeless for an extended period, and you have never worked with the homeless. If you had, you would know that you are a lot happier when you aren't barely surviving.

You remind me of the 2004 movie The Aviator, about Howard Hughes. In that movie Hughes and Audrey Hepburn were dining with her family and her mother says, "We don't care about money here." Hughes angrily replies, "That's because you've always had it." There's a truth there, a truth you will deny. You remind me of the many church members I have known who live in big houses, take exotic vacations at least once per year, have no financial problems when expensive emergencies happen, then tell the father of a family of five what a sinner he is for wanting more than a one bedroom apartment.

Why do you think the church puts so much effort into teaching self sufficiency? Could it have anything to do with self sufficiency increasing happiness? And will you concede that it is possible those who aren't barely getting by are happier than those who are barely getting by? Or that having enough extra money to pursue dreams leads to even greater happiness?

I assume you will read this and immediately conclude I'm saying to lay up for yourself treasures on earth, but I hope you will be honest enough to concede that I am saying no such thing.

Furthermore, you either misrepresented or intentionally lied about what Nehor taught. Nehor taught three things: that priests should be supported by the people, that salvation was universal, and therefore repentance is unnecessary. He did not teach that having more money than others brings happiness, at least not as recorded in the Book of Mormon. Additionally, there is nothing in Jacob 7 to support your assertion that Sherem taught people to acquire wealth. Sherem taught that there would be no Christ (verses 2, 7, 9).

People teach that today, and people probably taught that in Book of Mormon times. But that is not what I am claiming. I am claiming that having enough money to live comfortably leads to greater happiness than those who don't make that much money. And I am providing research that demonstrates my claim is true. If you would open your mind to truths you don't want to accept, you would see the research I cited does not prove your lie - that I claimed more money means more happiness. It says that more money leads to more happiness up to a specific point.

I long for the day when we no longer need to worry about income and bills. But until then I will encourage everyone to get a job that pays enough to live comfortably. I have lived in poverty and I've lived with a six figure income, and I know from my experiences plus those of many other people that your belief homeless people sleeping on sidewalks are just as happy as people living in comfortable homes is patently false.

Do you have the guts to be homeless for a week to see how happy you are? Keep in mind that knowing you will only be there for a few days before going back to your much more comfortable life will make your experience much more pleasant than that of people who have little to no hope that they will ever get off the streets.