An Actual Testimony versus Anti-Mormon Rhetoric

[Craig Johnson]

Herein I wish to assert that very few of those who dispense anti-Mormon rhetoric ever had an actual testimony as it is taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. One observation over the years that (among others) has convinced me of this is listening to those (before they went anti) giving their testimony at Fast and Testimony meetings. I am curious if others have observed this and if what I am saying here is well understood by forum members.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/2016/06/the- ... y?lang=eng
Also, it is my wish to note commonalities of those who postulate their anti-Mormon dogma. What I notice most often are them bringing forward facts while not presenting the whole picture and thus using deception coupled with a lot of verbiage, as though all that talking made what they are putting out true. In the interim people are confused and those who have not developed a testimony can be disaffected, thus damaging converts who are in a tender stage of spiritual evolution.
I welcome your additions to this as I, for one, wish to develop my ability to maintain the correct compass heading while conversing with anti's on their topics.

[diligently seeking]

Two crowds:
1) stay close and follow priesthood leaders...

2) stay yoked to Christ / follow Nephis admonition and have faith that truth will remain (when expounded by his leaders etc) and falsehoods will fall away (when errantly they are expounded by his leaders ) as we take heed to Nephi's counsel and have complete Fidelity in Jesus Christ---- ultimate victory is the result.

2nephi 28

31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.


2nephi 4


....30 Rejoice, O my heart, and cry unto the Lord, and say: O Lord, I will praise thee forever; yea, my soul will rejoice in thee, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
31 O Lord, wilt thou redeem my soul? Wilt thou deliver me out of the hands of mine enemies? Wilt thou make me that I may shake at the appearance of sin?
32 May the gates of hell be shut continually before me, because that my heart is broken and my spirit is contrite! O Lord, wilt thou not shut the gates of thy righteousness before me, that I may walk in the path of the low valley, that I may be strict in the plain road!
33 O Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy righteousness! O Lord, wilt thou make a way for mine escape before mine enemies! Wilt thou make my path straight before me! Wilt thou not place a stumbling block in my way—but that thou wouldst clear my way before me, and hedge not up my way, but the ways of mine enemy.
34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.
35 Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ask not amiss; therefore I will lift up my voice unto thee; yea, I will cry unto thee, my God, the rock of my righteousness. Behold, my voice shall forever ascend up unto thee, my rock and mine everlasting God. Amen.

2nephi 9 ( Jacobs inspired words)

41 O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name..."


When we understand that through sufficient faith etc in the following of Jesus we can receive the holy ghost which means we transcended testimony and we are converted healed changed becoming actual saints through the atonement of Jesus Christ born of God---- at that moment we Find ourselves on the path that leads to eternal life.



When his servants point to the exclusive way through Christ and fidelity to and in him --- hope in Christ and the promise of receiving eternal life becomes our eventual reality.


Yes?

[marc]

A testimony in the truest sense of the word is an account or a statement or a declaration of one's witnessing an event. If you witnessed a car crash, you give your testimony as a witness to the event to the police when they take a statement or in a court of law if you are called in as a "witness." Your testimony is your personal observation of an event or events. What you saw cannot be strengthened just by recalling it, however. The event is what it is. If you read and pray about the Book of Mormon and learn by the power of the Holy Ghost that it is true, then your testimony is your witness of its truthfulness as revealed to you.

D&C 50:24 That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.

One's "testimony" does not necessarily grow so much as it is the person who grows. In other words, it is the person who grows nearer to the Lord. The person's light increases until the perfect day. Thus the person's witness of truth and light and of the divine increases. An actual testimony, or rather, an actual witness of something becomes a stepping stone to greater things. This is why the brother of Jared parted the veil. Before Jesus showed Himself to the brother of Jared, Jesus asked him if he would believe the words He was about to tell him. By this point, the brother of Jared's faith, resulting from a series of experiences, had given him the confidence in a truthful Master who cannot lie. And because of his relationship with Jesus Christ, he knew this and believed.

Ether 3:11 And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you...

Without faith (belief as opposed to unbelief) it is impossible to please God. He desires to save us; it pleases Him to save us. It is His work and glory to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life. If we do not believe Him, however, He cannot force us to do His will. This is why throughout scripture, people have been condemned for unbelief. But it is belief that brings about one's willingness to obey and thus receive a witness of things and what draws us nearer to Him. It is believing that enables one to obtain a testimony of the divine.

[Dave62]

A testimony, in the Gospel context, must contain a witness of Christ as borne by the Holy Spirit, otherwise it is merely a statement of belief. Or, to put it another way, if you don't testify of the Saviour and His Gospel then you have not shared your testimony at all. You have probably said a "thank-timony", or a statement of appreciation, or even a travelogue, but you have not given a testimony As for the "antis", they are the children of fools who follow the father of lies. Very seldom do we see such a paucity of academic effort, critical thinking, reliable referencing, or rigorous application of procedure as amongst the pseudo-intelligensia of the anti-Mormons. It has been my long and sad experience that the major reason for attacking the Church of Jesus Christ, its leadership or its membership has been the individual's inability to grasp the meaning of the Grace of Christ. They have felt that they were being judged by not living up to false expectations of behavioural standards. They have not understood the doctrines of Salvation and, as a consequence, seek to hide their guilt by finding fault in the Lord's church and His people.

[diligently seeking]

What was the difference between Peter who had a strong testimony wittness of Jesus to Peter who was converted changed mightly by Jesus through receiveing the Holy ghost...?

Additionally what was the difference between King Benjamin's people who were faithful obedient general conference regularly attending people---to People who received the holy ghost through faith on Jesus Christ?They received a mighty change of heart and became the spiritual offspring of Jesus Christ--- born of him having received the holy ghost --- having transcended church membership and became actual Saints through the atonement of Jesus ---recipients of many spiritual gifts as a result. They were put in a very strong believing position in their newly converted healed condition to take advantage of the last verse / counsel in chapter 5 of mosiah (receive their C&E) and to move forward sanctified purified (like the brother of Jared) to be received by their Glorified Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh.

[EdGoble]

Herein I wish to assert that very few of those who dispense anti-Mormon rhetoric ever had an actual testimony as it is taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. One observation over the years that (among others) has convinced me of this is listening to those (before they went anti) giving their testimony at Fast and Testimony meetings. I am curious if others have observed this and if what I am saying here is well understood by forum members.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/2016/06/the- ... y?lang=eng
Also, it is my wish to note commonalities of those who postulate their anti-Mormon dogma. What I notice most often are them bringing forward facts while not presenting the whole picture and thus using deception coupled with a lot of verbiage, as though all that talking made what they are putting out true. In the interim people are confused and those who have not developed a testimony can be disaffected, thus damaging converts who are in a tender stage of spiritual evolution.
I welcome your additions to this as I, for one, wish to develop my ability to maintain the correct compass heading while conversing with anti's on their topics.

Absolutely. Most often, they refuse to admit that apologetics actually does bring forth a sort of evidence, even if its not proof. And they refuse to admit that to a large degree, apologetics actually are reasonable interpretations of that evidence, though not from the anti point of view. And I view this as despicable and dishonest.

[natasha]

There is an incredible talk here: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... e?lang=eng that concentrates mainly on faith and obeying. One of the quotes from this talk is: "Faith never demands an answer to every question, but seeks the assurance and courage to move forward." If we had the answer to EVERY question, we would never have to exercise faith. There is something very unique about exercising faith believing that eventually we will know all things.

[Thinker]

Since “dogma” was used in relation to “anti-mormon” lit, the definition needs to be pointed out...

dog·ma
[ˈdôɡmə]
NOUN
a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true

Saying that someone is wrong simply because they don’t agree with your favorite authority, is essentially dogmatic reasoning, besides prioritizing another before God.

[oneClimbs]

All discussions wherein the gospel is discussed in terms of belief and doubt or criticism inevitably return to the same place: a stalemate. There are only two real options: 1) a person must either connect with God experience what he has to offer or 2) remain in a state where one's understanding is governed by man-made ideologies.

It can be interesting to have a conversation and run in circles examining ideas for sure but it is important to know what either person is trying to gain out of any discussion. Some people are interested in having a conversation, sharing, and learning and in that case, everyone can be edified. Other people only care about winning an ideological joust; they are convinced of their paradigm and wish for the satisfaction of fortifying their own position by beating others down with it. There is never anything to be gained by engaging in such a conversation unless you enjoy being someone's ideological punching bag.

If you find yourself stuck in such a conversation, you can actually turn it into something positive. 1) stop being defensive 2) honestly ask them questions about their own belief system, ask them searching and genuine questions and look for things you can agree with. Then you will have turned a contentious debate into a complimentary discussion about shared beliefs. Blessed are the peacemakers.

[Thinker]

Good points, Steve.