Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

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BruceRGilbert
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Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

Significant "Paradoxes" have occurred in the historical development of all religion. The purpose and intent of this thread is discover the reason and intent for such things and their role in bringing about God's purposes. The predominant question that one should ask while reviewing and considering these things is: "Why would God allow the contradictions?"

Why does God employ "paradox" in our development? What is the role and purpose of "dissonance" in promoting growth?

Those who are familiar with the pre-1990 Endowment will recognize the significance of the "Blood Oath," as related to the following scripture:
Moses 5:
29 And Satan said unto Cain: Swear unto me by thy throat, and if thou tell it thou shalt die; and swear thy brethren by their heads, and by the living God, that they tell it not; for if they tell it, they shall surely die; and this that thy father may not know it; and this day I will deliver thy brother Abel into thine hands.
In an apparent "contradiction" and in opposition to the foregoing information, the following scripture is provided:
Doctrine and Covenants 1:
14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.
Can ordinances be changed?

The dilemma resides in the characterization of the Endowment and the taking of an "oath" as an ordinance. Why would the "Restoration" of the Endowment require a "Reformation?"

What are your thoughts?

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marc
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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by marc »

The Lord is always displeased when ordinances are changed by His covenant people.
Isaiah 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the @#$ his master’s crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.

4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

5 ¶ Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

10 ¶ Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them...
Isiah 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant...
Malachi 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the Lord of hosts.

6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

7 ¶ Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

8 ¶ Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts.

simpleton
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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by simpleton »

BruceRGilbert wrote: February 8th, 2018, 11:45 am Significant "Paradoxes" have occurred in the historical development of all religion. The purpose and intent of this thread is discover the reason and intent for such things and their role in bringing about God's purposes. The predominant question that one should ask while reviewing and considering these things is: "Why would God allow the contradictions?"

Why does God employ "paradox" in our development? What is the role and purpose of "dissonance" in promoting growth?

Those who are familiar with the pre-1990 Endowment will recognize the significance of the "Blood Oath," as related to the following scripture:
Moses 5:
29 And Satan said unto Cain: Swear unto me by thy throat, and if thou tell it thou shalt die; and swear thy brethren by their heads, and by the living God, that they tell it not; for if they tell it, they shall surely die; and this that thy father may not know it; and this day I will deliver thy brother Abel into thine hands.
In an apparent "contradiction" and in opposition to the foregoing information, the following scripture is provided:
Doctrine and Covenants 1:
14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.
Can ordinances be changed?

The dilemma resides in the characterization of the Endowment and the taking of an "oath" as an ordinance. Why would the "Restoration" of the Endowment require a "Reformation?"

What are your thoughts?
One word... "Agency".......

I think we are the ones that changed the ordinances not God. For example the garment:

I Benjamin Franklin LeBaron, was born in the 15th ward, Salt Lake
City, 22 August 1860...My Father and mother were well acquainted with

the Prophet Joseph. Mother said.., she was at the meeting at Nauvoo when he

(Joseph Smith) presented the garment to the Church, and held it up before

them and said it was the exact pattern of the one the angel showed him, and

was called "The Garment of the Holy Priesthood," and must be worn all

through life, and would be a protection to them against all physical and

spiritual dangers if they were always faithful to the covenants they made with

the Lord. He explained all the features pertaining to it, and told them it should

never be changed from that pattern. She was so impressed that she made union

suits for us children and had us wear them so that we should be used to such

a garment when we became eligible to wear it.

I have always worn the original garment, the exact pattern of the one

an angel showed to Joseph Smith, and have learned to love it, and I felt very

bad when the Church Authorities allowed a change.

--Benjamin Franklin LeBaron

And:
“The garments worn by those who receive endowments must be white and of the approved pattern. They must not be altered and mutilated and are to be worn as intended, down to the wrist and ankle, and around the neck. Admission to the temple will be refused those who do not comply with these requirements. The Saints should know that the pattern of endowment garments was revealed from heaven, and the blessings promised in connection with wearing them will not be realized if any unauthorized change is made in their form or in the manner of wearing them” (Joseph F. Smith, “Temple Instructions to the Bishops,” Messages of the First Presidency 5:110.


We have strayed and broken the covenants just like you quoted above...
God is the same today, yesterday and forever...

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

Ecclesiastes 3:
14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
The pertinent questions having to do with faith are:

1.) Does God have the prerogative and right to alter His decrees?
2.) Why would He alter His decree?
3.) How would that happen?
4.) What is His expectation of us with respect to such change?

Of course, the original question remains to be addressed and that one is, "What is the purpose of PARADOX in progression?"

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

The TEST
Abraham 3:
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
Keeping the "First Estate" had to do with the acceptance of Jehovah, Jesus the Christ.

Keeping the "Second Estate" has to do with being faithful and keeping God's commands.

Faithfulness and the "Trial of Faith"
Doctrine and Covenants 105:
18 But inasmuch as there are those who have hearkened unto my words, I have prepared a blessing and an endowment for them, if they continue faithful.

19 I have heard their prayers, and will accept their offering; and it is expedient in me that they should be brought thus far for a trial of their faith.
1 Peter 1:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Ether 12:
6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

7 For it was by faith that Christ showed himself unto our fathers, after he had risen from the dead; and he showed not himself unto them until after they had faith in him; wherefore, it must needs be that some had faith in him, for he showed himself not unto the world.

8 But because of the faith of men he has shown himself unto the world, and glorified the name of the Father, and prepared a way that thereby others might be partakers of the heavenly gift, that they might hope for those things which they have not seen.
As a preview to what is to follow, "Is there a correlation between PARADOX and TRIAL of FAITH?" (To be continued.)

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

Deuteronomy 8:
2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the Lord thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.

3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.

4 Thy raiment waxed not old upon thee, neither did thy foot swell, these forty years.

5 Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, so the Lord thy God chasteneth thee.

6 Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.
Some who will review this thread are akin to those who have been in the "spiritual" wilderness searching for resolution to apparent "paradoxes" needing resolution. It is in the "struggle" that we gain strength. But, too, it is in our attitude that we "overcome." We are approaching the "Trial of Faith" that will expand our understandings and bring us closer to God.
Doctrine and Covenants 136:
31 My people must be tried in all things, that they may be prepared to receive the glory that I have for them, even the glory of Zion; and he that will not bear chastisement is not worthy of my kingdom.

32 Let him that is ignorant learn wisdom by humbling himself and calling upon the Lord his God, that his eyes may be opened that he may see, and his ears opened that he may hear;

33 For my Spirit is sent forth into the world to enlighten the humble and contrite, and to the condemnation of the ungodly.

EdGoble
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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by EdGoble »

BruceRGilbert wrote: February 8th, 2018, 11:45 am Significant "Paradoxes" have occurred in the historical development of all religion. The purpose and intent of this thread is discover the reason and intent for such things and their role in bringing about God's purposes. The predominant question that one should ask while reviewing and considering these things is: "Why would God allow the contradictions?"

Why does God employ "paradox" in our development? What is the role and purpose of "dissonance" in promoting growth?

Those who are familiar with the pre-1990 Endowment will recognize the significance of the "Blood Oath," as related to the following scripture:
Moses 5:
29 And Satan said unto Cain: Swear unto me by thy throat, and if thou tell it thou shalt die; and swear thy brethren by their heads, and by the living God, that they tell it not; for if they tell it, they shall surely die; and this that thy father may not know it; and this day I will deliver thy brother Abel into thine hands.
In an apparent "contradiction" and in opposition to the foregoing information, the following scripture is provided:
Doctrine and Covenants 1:
14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.
Can ordinances be changed?

The dilemma resides in the characterization of the Endowment and the taking of an "oath" as an ordinance. Why would the "Restoration" of the Endowment require a "Reformation?"

What are your thoughts?
It is a fact that ordinances have changed, regardless of assertions that they don't change.
Those that already have it in their heart to find fault with the Lord's anointed won't agree that ordinances can be changed in the way that the brethren have changed them.

The clear difference between what the brethren have done and what the catholics did lies in the fact that the changes the brethren did were authorized and presumably done by revelation, whereas the Catholics had no authority left, and revelation had ceased, and those changes were done for whatever whim the people had to do it.

If one happens to be aware of things before a change, and after a change, a simple review of the nature of the change reveals why something was changed. And it lies in the fact that we are a Church that is led by revelation, and things are tailored to the current needs (and yes, even sensibilities) of the people.

Clearly, unlike South American cultures, the culture of the United States values personal space, and is not touchy-feely. While people used to not necessarily care all that much if others of the same sex saw them nude (and this persists in the showers in high school locker rooms, etc.), we now seem to care a lot because of abuses, etc.

This is the core reason why over time the bathing ceremony in one's birthday suit in the initiatory evolved in stages to be what it is with people doing what they do now, fully clothed. And the principle behind this seems to be that a symbol that has become a distraction has lost its usefulness.

Blood oaths in mimicry of various types of homicide (even though their meaning was spiritual--i.e. spiritual death) have lost their usefulness because they are a distraction, not that they stopped being "true." But it is clear that throughout cultures and throughout time, the type of thing like "cross my heart and hope to die and stick a needle in my eye" has always been present with taking oaths, not just religious ones.

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

Thank you, Ed. I appreciate your comments. It illustrates that some can negotiate "change" and "paradox" very easily, allowing such things to become "stepping stones" instead of "stumbling blocks," while others cannot. It has to do with what I call the "willow, oak paradigm." I can assure you that God will find a paradox particularly tailored to your "Trial of Faith" - and maybe He already has - in preparation for your "Calling and Election" to be made sure.
Doctrine and Covenants 56:
1 Hearken, O ye people who profess my name, saith the Lord your God; for behold, mine anger is kindled against the rebellious, and they shall know mine arm and mine indignation, in the day of visitation and of wrath upon the nations.

2 And he that will not take up his cross and follow me, and keep my commandments, the same shall not be saved.

3 Behold, I, the Lord, command; and he that will not obey shall be cut off in mine own due time, after I have commanded and the commandment is broken.

4 Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; and all this to be answered upon the heads of the rebellious, saith the Lord.

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

The next time that any of you witness a "bareback" riding contest at a Rodeo, pay particular attention to where the "Rider" focuses their attention. A lesson can be garnished by understanding what is being watched and why.

It is with discernment that I hope you will understand the pertinence of this comment to this thread.

(Addendum added 2/10/2018)

Have you ever wrestled with an Angel - immortal or mortal?
Last edited by BruceRGilbert on February 10th, 2018, 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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abijah
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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by abijah »

BruceRGilbert wrote: February 8th, 2018, 11:45 am Significant "Paradoxes" have occurred in the historical development of all religion. The purpose and intent of this thread is discover the reason and intent for such things and their role in bringing about God's purposes. The predominant question that one should ask while reviewing and considering these things is: "Why would God allow the contradictions?"

Why does God employ "paradox" in our development? What is the role and purpose of "dissonance" in promoting growth?

Those who are familiar with the pre-1990 Endowment will recognize the significance of the "Blood Oath," as related to the following scripture:
Moses 5:
29 And Satan said unto Cain: Swear unto me by thy throat, and if thou tell it thou shalt die; and swear thy brethren by their heads, and by the living God, that they tell it not; for if they tell it, they shall surely die; and this that thy father may not know it; and this day I will deliver thy brother Abel into thine hands.
In an apparent "contradiction" and in opposition to the foregoing information, the following scripture is provided:
Doctrine and Covenants 1:
14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.
Can ordinances be changed?

The dilemma resides in the characterization of the Endowment and the taking of an "oath" as an ordinance. Why would the "Restoration" of the Endowment require a "Reformation?"

What are your thoughts?
I consider the receipt of revelation as well as the word of knowledge to be among my spiritual gifts. Speaking purely from personal experience, I've received promptings and impressions that don't always conform perfectly to the Gospel as I understand it at the time. I think that in these times what we view as "paradoxes" aren't actually contradictory. For me I often found that I viewed Truth as being more two-dimensional when it isn't necessarily so with God. Sometimes higher truths may supersede the lower.

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

Certainly, Abijah of England, you make a valid point. How should these "Higher Laws, Commandments, or Principles" be characterized? Do they have "spatial" as in "dimensional" aspects? Do they have "temporal" aspects? For example, would there be a significance having to do with "time" if we were comparing "dead prophets" to "living prophets?" Certainly, in view of your gifts, you know where this may be headed and your assistance in making it so is solicited.

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Mindfields
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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by Mindfields »

Why is it that despite scriptures calling out exactly what we're doing as wrong we somehow convince ourselves that they don't apply to us. Sound familiar?

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

Mindfields wrote: Why is it that despite scriptures calling out exactly what we're doing as wrong we somehow convince ourselves that they don't apply to us. Sound familiar?
Mindfields, (akin to "minefields,") let speak momentarily about the "conviction process." One is "convicted" by their conscience or "Light of Christ" as to that which requires attention and wrongness. It is a very personal thing. What can ensue is the process called "rationalization," which in all reality is "self-justification." It is a form or "validating" oneself for the purpose of "feeling better" after "feeling bad." There is a certain amount of "intellectual and emotional honesty" that has to go into this process of "looking within oneself" that is called "insight." If done with the companionship of the Spirit, that which must be "owned" is made manifest with its accompanying "responsibility" in the "intellectual" or "mind" realm and/or "fault" in the "emotional" or "heart" realm. Intellectual and Emotional Integrity allows for objectivity and correction. Because of "mote/beam" sickness in ascribing "fault" to others, it is a "rocky road" at best to do so. Our judgment is only as good as our information - there is one thing that we are blatantly inadequate in discerning without intervention of the Spirit when it comes to a behavioral analysis of others, and that is INTENT. "JUDGEMENT IS MEANT FOR IDENTIFICATION and NOT condemnation." No one ever changes "within" because of threat, duress, or coercion. (You will find that those who are subjected to such things retreat into former "learned" behaviors that provided them "security.") It becomes a "fight" or "flight" thing with the eventuality that that which is "condemned" by judgment retreats into itself, "avoids" or attacks.

The Spirit convicts or justifies.

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

1 Peter 1:
19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
3 Nephi 6:
12 And the people began to be distinguished by ranks, according to their riches and their chances for learning; yea, some were ignorant because of their poverty, and others did receive great learning because of their riches.
13 Some were lifted up in pride, and others were exceedingly humble; some did return railing for railing, while others would receive railing and persecution and all manner of afflictions, and would not turn and revile again, but were humble and penitent before God.
14 And thus there became a great inequality in all the land, insomuch that the church began to be broken up; yea, insomuch that in the thirtieth year the church was broken up in all the land save it were among a few of the Lamanites who were converted unto the true faith; and they would not depart from it, for they were firm, and steadfast, and immovable, willing with all diligence to keep the commandments of the Lord.
15 Now the cause of this iniquity of the people was this—Satan had great power, unto the stirring up of the people to do all manner of iniquity, and to the puffing them up with pride, tempting them to seek for power, and authority, and riches, and the vain things of the world.
16 And thus Satan did lead away the hearts of the people to do all manner of iniquity; therefore they had enjoyed peace but a few years.
2 Nephi 28:
15 O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!
16 Wo unto them that turn aside the just for a thing of naught and revile against that which is good, and say that it is of no worth! For the day shall come that the Lord God will speedily visit the inhabitants of the earth; and in that day that they are fully ripe in iniquity they shall perish.
17 But behold, if the inhabitants of the earth shall repent of their wickedness and abominations they shall not be destroyed, saith the Lord of Hosts.
Doctrine and Covenants 19:
29 And thou shalt declare glad tidings, yea, publish it upon the mountains, and upon every high place, and among every people that thou shalt be permitted to see.
30 And thou shalt do it with all humility, trusting in me, reviling not against revilers.
31 And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost.
32 Behold, this is a great and the last commandment which I shall give unto you concerning this matter; for this shall suffice for thy daily walk, even unto the end of thy life.
33 And misery thou shalt receive if thou wilt slight these counsels, yea, even the destruction of thyself and property.
Doctrine and Covenants 31:
9 Be patient in afflictions, revile not against those that revile. Govern your house in meekness, and be steadfast.
What does it mean to “carry your cross?” What is this “burden?”

The “Deliberation” during “Stress, Duress, Coercion, Contradiction, or Paradox.”
The “Questioning” Phase of the “Trial of Faith”

We have examples of significant "Trials of Faith" in the scriptures. The obvious one is that of Abraham; however, we get little information with respect to his "deliberation" process. Another is Nephi when told to take the life of Laban. The Spirit justifies or convicts. (An examination of these things will continue in due course.)

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

Doctrine and Covenants 101:
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—

2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

3 Yet I will own them, and they shall be mine in that day when I shall come to make up my jewels.

4 Therefore, they must needs be chastened and tried, even as Abraham, who was commanded to offer up his only son.

5 For all those who will not endure chastening, but deny me, cannot be sanctified.
One must be chastened and receive a "Trial of Faith" prior to being "Sanctified."

An "Abrahamic Test" is prerequisite for having one's "Calling and Election Made Sure."

During the "deliberations" of such tests, the following possibilities exist: Comply, Deny, Rebel, Revile.

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

The Abrahamic Test – A Trial of Faith
The Conflict: Thou Shalt NOT Murder
Abraham’s Father sought to sacrifice him.
The Birthright Promise of God is through Abraham’s Heir
Hebrews 11:
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
For Abraham, the KEY of FAITH was that "God was able to raise him up, even from the dead" to fulfill His promise to him. Generally speaking, the resolution of the "dilemma / paradox" resides in greater FAITH.

For Nephi:

The Conflict: Thou Shalt NOT Murder
1 Nephi 4:
6 And I was led by the Spirit, not knowing beforehand the things which I should do.

7 Nevertheless I went forth, and as I came near unto the house of Laban I beheld a man, and he had fallen to the earth before me, for he was drunken with wine.

8 And when I came to him I found that it was Laban.

9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.

11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.

12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

15 Yea, and I also thought that they could not keep the commandments of the Lord according to the law of Moses, save they should have the law.

16 And I also knew that the law was engraven upon the plates of brass.

17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.

18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.
I suspect that you, the reader, have identified the KEY of FAITH that lead to the resolution of the "deliberation" for Nephi.

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abijah
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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by abijah »

BruceRGilbert wrote: February 9th, 2018, 11:41 pm How should these "Higher Laws, Commandments, or Principles" be characterized? Do they have "spatial" as in "dimensional" aspects? Do they have "temporal" aspects?
I'm having difficulty understanding most of your questions. How should higher purposes be characterised? For now, simply "higher" suits me fine. "Spatial dimensions, temporal aspects"? Maybe I'm just dim but I haven't a clue what you mean.
BruceRGilbert wrote: February 9th, 2018, 11:41 pm For example, would there be a significance having to do with "time" if we were comparing "dead prophets" to "living prophets?"
I have trouble understanding your question about time. Are you asking if time is a relevant factor when prophesying? I personally think the word of God is the word of God, and is eternal. So long the word is true and relevant to me in my circumstance, then I don't think there is a special "significance having to do with time". Russell M. Nelson's words come from the Lord and apply to me, therefore I cherish them, just as I do the words of Isaiah which also pertain to me and my circumstances.

I'm not saying that the word of God is made void, I'm saying sometimes God has more important and more pressing issues at the time. It's hard to maintain a Church that's under attack from the government for it's practice of plural marriage. There are also reasons for changes in the Endowment but it comes down to whether you believe our present leaders act as inspired by God in such things or not. It's like the discussion going on in another thread, about whether it is ever acceptable to transgress. When God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, when the Spirit constrained Nephi to slay Laban, these and like situations create spiritual paradoxes. First God says "Thou shalt not kill" and then He commands Moses and Israel to slaughter all the Canaanites. In Nephi's circumstance, the higher purpose in God was to preserve the scriptures and secure the success of Lehi's exodus. With Abraham it was to confirm his faith and bear testimony of Christ's future Atonement. With Moses and Joshua it was for the Israelites to fulfil God's covenant with Abraham.

BruceRGilbert wrote: February 9th, 2018, 11:41 pm Certainly, in view of your gifts, you know where this may be headed and your assistance in making it so is solicited.
Is it? I hope my assistance was helpful then.

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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

You have done well, Abijah, in answering. Forgive me for not asking the questions properly. It is so very vital to be understood and I acknowledge a weakness sometimes in presuming that others understand my vernacular . . . eh, "language."

I am constrained to offer clarification, because you deserve that. In speaking of "dimensions," we talk about "space" . . . such as "length, height, width, and breadth." (Breadth in this instance may refer to "how long" and is reflective of the "time" situation.) This type of reference is "Spatial." Another "aspect" of our existence, of course, is "Temporal" or having to do with "Time." Something that is "higher" may pertain to "space" or it may pertain to "time." For example, a "spatial" higher may refer to "jurisdiction" over certain space. A "temporal" or "time-wise" higher, may refer to "proximity" to the event or circumstances in question.

I hope that you realize that you have, indeed, addressed these things. Thank you for being "real" and "honest" with me; for even addressing the questions.
Last edited by BruceRGilbert on February 10th, 2018, 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by Rand »

BruceRGilbert wrote: February 8th, 2018, 11:45 am Significant "Paradoxes" have occurred in the historical development of all religion. The purpose and intent of this thread is discover the reason and intent for such things and their role in bringing about God's purposes. The predominant question that one should ask while reviewing and considering these things is: "Why would God allow the contradictions?"

Why does God employ "paradox" in our development? What is the role and purpose of "dissonance" in promoting growth?

Those who are familiar with the pre-1990 Endowment will recognize the significance of the "Blood Oath," as related to the following scripture:
Moses 5:
29 And Satan said unto Cain: Swear unto me by thy throat, and if thou tell it thou shalt die; and swear thy brethren by their heads, and by the living God, that they tell it not; for if they tell it, they shall surely die; and this that thy father may not know it; and this day I will deliver thy brother Abel into thine hands.
In an apparent "contradiction" and in opposition to the foregoing information, the following scripture is provided:
Doctrine and Covenants 1:
14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.
Can ordinances be changed?

The dilemma resides in the characterization of the Endowment and the taking of an "oath" as an ordinance. Why would the "Restoration" of the Endowment require a "Reformation?"

What are your thoughts?
Paradox is just a result of perspective. There are no paradoxes in God's view, I believe. WE suffer paradox precisely to persuade us to shift our perspective. If we are wise, and read the Holy Word of God, attend the House of the Lord and are obedient, seek Him in prayer, He will lend His guidance to the reorientation of our perspective and to the eradication of paradox in our view of temporal life.
We do live in a realm with limited capacity. We can conceive of questions with no answer, but that is do to asking a bad question, due to our limited perspectives and views.
As our perspective becomes more Holy, or informed, and knowing, our resultant paradoxes diminish. God may use paradox to teach, humble, persuade, and chasten. But, not all paradox is of a godly origin, it is most often of a mortal, or lower origin.
Pain is a common causer of paradox.
Pride is a common originator of paradox.
Humility and gratitude erase paradox.
Paradox is a faithless state.
The simple reality is that "all things work together for good..." and that we are commanded to "give thanks to God in all things."
These demand a repentance from paradox.
At least this is my view for now. The next time I watch Johnny Lingo, it may change all of that.

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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

Rand wrote: Paradox is just a result of perspective. There are no paradoxes in God's view, I believe. WE suffer paradox precisely to persuade us to shift our perspective. If we are wise, and read the Holy Word of God, attend the House of the Lord and are obedient, seek Him in prayer, He will lend His guidance to the reorientation of our perspective and to the eradication of paradox in our view of temporal life.
We do live in a realm with limited capacity. We can conceive of questions with no answer, but that is do to asking a bad question, due to our limited perspectives and views.
As our perspective becomes more Holy, or informed, and knowing, our resultant paradoxes diminish. God may use paradox to teach, humble, persuade, and chasten. But, not all paradox is of a godly origin, it is most often of a mortal, or lower origin.
Pain is a common causer of paradox.
Pride is a common originator of paradox.
Humility and gratitude erase paradox.
Paradox is a faithless state.
The simple reality is that "all things work together for good..." and that we are commanded to "give thanks to God in all things."
These demand a repentance from paradox.
At least this is my view for now. The next time I watch Johnny Lingo, it may change all of that.
Rand, Thank you for your participation. I should like to inquire of you regarding your perspectives: Is a "bad question" one that has no answer? Is it your view that there isn't an answer to all questions? A follow-up question with regard to the former would be, "Is God All-Knowing?" Do you believe that God would be interested in answering a "bad" question? Would it be beneath Him to address the inquiry of a fallen or lost "child?"

I very much agree with your statement that "Paradox is just a result of perspective." That observation is very astute. Too, it is, also, true that there are no paradoxes in God's view. In fact the whole first paragraph is very revealing and informative. My favorite statement that you have made is the following: "As our perspective becomes more Holy, or informed, and knowing, our resultant paradoxes diminish." I suppose that the statement that I have problems with is the one that states, "Paradox is a faithless state." It would be my assertion that Paradox is the essence of a Test of Faith. Too, I have concerns about the notion that there is a need for "repentance from paradox." If what you infer is that there must be a "change" from paradox, meaning that the paradoxes need to be resolved - I would agree. To infer that there is some type of guilt or wrongdoing in experiencing one, I would need to disagree. It is in the resolution of "paradox" that the most growth can be realized.

One last statement, "Holy Cow, does Johnny Lingo have that much affect?" ;)

Oh, and - have you had an "Abrahamic Test" or "Trial of YOUR Faith?"

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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BeNotDeceived »

BruceRGilbert wrote: February 10th, 2018, 8:09 pm
Rand wrote: ... These demand a repentance from paradox.
At least this is my view for now. The next time I watch Johnny Lingo, it may change all of that.
One last statement, "Holy Cow, does Johnny Lingo have that much affect?" ;)
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/coimbatore/surge-in-demand-for-a2-milk-across-the-state/articleshow/62873645.cms wrote: Coimbatore: R P Santhosh Kumar, a native of Pollachi who had just one native cow, has decided to buy 10 more to meet the demand for A2 milk in the area where he lives. He used to sell only 3 litres of milk every day at Ramanathapuram in Coimbatore. The demand has now increased to 25 litres and he is unable to meet it. "Many people call me and ask me to deliver the milk to them. But it is very difficult for me to meet the transport costs. I am planning to increase my supply by purchasing 10 more native cows," he said. He charges ...
But were Jonny’s cows superior A2 cows? :lol:

Are cows considered sacred in India? Apparently drinking milk is ok.

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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by Rand »

BruceRGilbert wrote: February 10th, 2018, 8:09 pm
Rand wrote: Paradox is just a result of perspective. There are no paradoxes in God's view, I believe. WE suffer paradox precisely to persuade us to shift our perspective. If we are wise, and read the Holy Word of God, attend the House of the Lord and are obedient, seek Him in prayer, He will lend His guidance to the reorientation of our perspective and to the eradication of paradox in our view of temporal life.
We do live in a realm with limited capacity. We can conceive of questions with no answer, but that is do to asking a bad question, due to our limited perspectives and views.
As our perspective becomes more Holy, or informed, and knowing, our resultant paradoxes diminish. God may use paradox to teach, humble, persuade, and chasten. But, not all paradox is of a godly origin, it is most often of a mortal, or lower origin.
Pain is a common causer of paradox.
Pride is a common originator of paradox.
Humility and gratitude erase paradox.
Paradox is a faithless state.
The simple reality is that "all things work together for good..." and that we are commanded to "give thanks to God in all things."
These demand a repentance from paradox.
At least this is my view for now. The next time I watch Johnny Lingo, it may change all of that.
Rand, Thank you for your participation. I should like to inquire of you regarding your perspectives: Is a "bad question" one that has no answer? A bad question is a question that has no good, or godly answer. The stereotypical question; "Why would God allow little children to suffer", is a bad question, because the asker is not asking out of faith, but out of doubt. The asker is also making the assumption that their perspective is full, rational and adequate to judge things that are beyond their understanding, and thus prideful. Is it your view that there isn't an answer to all questions? Of course there are answers to every question, but there are no good answers to a bad question. A follow-up question with regard to the former would be, "Is God All-Knowing?" Do you believe that God would be interested in answering a "bad" question? God usually answers truly bad questions with chastening life experiences. Would it be beneath Him to address the inquiry of a fallen or lost "child?" Would you offer to placate a temper tantrum in your child, knowing that it will teach a bad principle to them? God doesn't seem to do that. Scripture doesn't seem to indicate He would do that.

I very much agree with your statement that "Paradox is just a result of perspective." That observation is very astute. Too, it is, also, true that there are no paradoxes in God's view. In fact the whole first paragraph is very revealing and informative. My favorite statement that you have made is the following: "As our perspective becomes more Holy, or informed, and knowing, our resultant paradoxes diminish." I suppose that the statement that I have problems with is the one that states, "Paradox is a faithless state." I would be more correct to state that Paradox is not a faith full, or faithful state. It would be my assertion that Paradox is the essence of a Test of Faith. I would say that paradox is the result of a lack of faith in some aspect, and of course the trial of our faith, or lack of faith is usually where we learn. So, are paradoxical views bad? It depends on what we do when we brush up against them. Too, I have concerns about the notion that there is a need for "repentance from paradox." If repentance means to turn yourself about, what is the result of that other than to take a new view and to assume a different perspective. If what you infer is that there must be a "change" from paradox, meaning that the paradoxes need to be resolved - I would agree. To infer that there is some type of guilt or wrongdoing in experiencing one, I would need to disagree. No guilt, just a change, or in other words a repentant process. It is in the resolution of "paradox" that the most growth can be realized.

One last statement, "Holy Cow, does Johnny Lingo have that much affect?" ;) You would have to ask Mahanna that. :-) It was indeed a paradox she found herself in. And Johnny helped her repent of the perspective that resulted in that paradox.

Oh, and - have you had an "Abrahamic Test" or "Trial of YOUR Faith?" I am not sure how difficult Abrahams trial was. If his faith was pure enough, sacrificing Isaac wasn't a difficult trial. If his faith was like mine, it would have been a difficult trial indeed. I have had my learning experiences in life, some have been challenging. I would not put myself in the category of many, many people I have had the honor to know, who have endured incredible life challenges and trials, and done so with great honor.

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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by Rand »

BeNotDeceived wrote: February 11th, 2018, 2:32 pm
BruceRGilbert wrote: February 10th, 2018, 8:09 pm
Rand wrote: ... These demand a repentance from paradox.
At least this is my view for now. The next time I watch Johnny Lingo, it may change all of that.
One last statement, "Holy Cow, does Johnny Lingo have that much affect?" ;)
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/coimbatore/surge-in-demand-for-a2-milk-across-the-state/articleshow/62873645.cms wrote: Coimbatore: R P Santhosh Kumar, a native of Pollachi who had just one native cow, has decided to buy 10 more to meet the demand for A2 milk in the area where he lives. He used to sell only 3 litres of milk every day at Ramanathapuram in Coimbatore. The demand has now increased to 25 litres and he is unable to meet it. "Many people call me and ask me to deliver the milk to them. But it is very difficult for me to meet the transport costs. I am planning to increase my supply by purchasing 10 more native cows," he said. He charges ...
But were Jonny’s cows superior A2 cows? :lol:

Are cows considered sacred in India? Apparently drinking milk is ok.
Haha, I wish Johnny, or R P Santhosh Kumar lived around here. I am having a hard time finding A2 milk.

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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

Doctrine and Covenants 76:
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
And of those that watch for "iniquity" and "wrongdoing" in another:
1 John 3:
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

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Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

In standing on "Soap Boxes," it is supposed that we choose our brand: "Gain," or maybe "Tide." In zeal it could be "Arm and Hammer." It is my hope that something has been gained because it would have been in vain if it were determined to be "Bore-Ax." (I claim "fair usage.") ;)


Excuse my "human-ness." It is my prayer that something of worth was gained in the journey. I would hope that others, seeing my weakness, would expound further on the things that have been revealed to them in dealing with these things - that "amplification" and "expansion" may occur in what ensues in this thread; in this forum. (Thank you Brian M., it is very worthwhile.) . . . and if not . . . it will die as have others. In my "paradigm," it is all about "making a difference in the world" and "making it a better place." I believe it should be a heritage and culture. Thank you for your forebearance and, always, God bless you and keep you on the pathway to Life Everlasting for yourself and loved ones. Jesus is the Christ and He lives. Establish Zion and God's purposes. Love seems to be the glue that hold all things together.

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