Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
User avatar
The Airbender
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1377

Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by The Airbender »

I've come to believe that the greatest truths are often found in paradox, for what it's worth.

Rand
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2472

Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by Rand »

The Airbender wrote: February 18th, 2018, 2:44 pm I've come to believe that the greatest truths are often found in paradox, for what it's worth.
explain further please.

Teancum
captain of 100
Posts: 873

Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by Teancum »

You know, I used to be troubled by apparent paradoxes in religion (specifically LDS). But in studying and experimenting with energy production, and observing life in general, I have come to understand that I know nothing. I do know that with God ALL things are possible. How can that be? Well, as a thought exercise, lets consider that time can be slowed, reversed, stopped, or sped up. If you are in doubt, there are scriptures which demonstrate this characteristic of time.

With some of the energy experiments, there are some strange behaviors that sometimes manifest themselves. I won't go into detail as that is a very deep rabbit hole to explore and just looking in from the surface is not sufficient. But in some of the experiments, time seems to be altered in ways that are rather stunning in the deep implications that they allow. Such experiments showed that time can be slowed down smoothly and evenly and even reversed as such, but sped up, it jumps in steps similar to Barkhausen jumps (erratic, unpredictable, and not even into the future). So to visualize time, think of it as a lightning strike with many fingers and leaders streaming off in all directions with one Main channel or path - time as we know it moves forward - mostly. But if you travel back up the lightning strike, there is a junction where an offshoot streamer goes in a slightly different direction, still heading down (or forward in our time visualization) but in a similar or parallel path.

Fractal geometry seems to display this concept that things can be similar but different.

Could God's view be like seeing the whole lightning strike or the infinity of the fractal design? If traced back and followed on a different course, could some event be different, or impossibilities removed? How could we as time challenged mortals even begin to comprehend such possibilities without going insane?

So, there comes FAITH. I don't know enough to know, but I do know God knows, and that fixes some glaring paradoxes in plain view. That becomes a testimony that I have seen with my limited understanding, glimpses of things prophets have wrote about that seem incomprehensible. Some of the things discussed here in this thread lose their bite and worry or dissonance about those subjects lessens and faith supplants those with the knowledge that God love His children, he has a plan for our happiness, and we must love him and follow his revealed plan.

User avatar
Contemplator
captain of 100
Posts: 836

Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by Contemplator »

BruceRGilbert wrote: February 8th, 2018, 11:45 am Significant "Paradoxes" have occurred in the historical development of all religion. The purpose and intent of this thread is discover the reason and intent for such things and their role in bringing about God's purposes. The predominant question that one should ask while reviewing and considering these things is: "Why would God allow the contradictions?"

Why does God employ "paradox" in our development? What is the role and purpose of "dissonance" in promoting growth?

Those who are familiar with the pre-1990 Endowment will recognize the significance of the "Blood Oath," as related to the following scripture:
Moses 5:
29 And Satan said unto Cain: Swear unto me by thy throat, and if thou tell it thou shalt die; and swear thy brethren by their heads, and by the living God, that they tell it not; for if they tell it, they shall surely die; and this that thy father may not know it; and this day I will deliver thy brother Abel into thine hands.
In an apparent "contradiction" and in opposition to the foregoing information, the following scripture is provided:
Doctrine and Covenants 1:
14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.
Can ordinances be changed?

The dilemma resides in the characterization of the Endowment and the taking of an "oath" as an ordinance. Why would the "Restoration" of the Endowment require a "Reformation?"

What are your thoughts?
BruceRGilbert,

There are so many possible directions to go from this OP. It has been worth reading, and yet frustrating. I know you have something in mind that you would like to communicate and discuss. I would like to know what that it. I have thoughts that arise that come from my own study and experience. But, at the end of this thread, I still do not know if I have understood what you would like to discuss. Is there a reason that you ask questions rather than plainly stating your thoughts? Is your abundant use of "quotes" a hint to your thoughts? I would very much appreciate knowing what it is you are pondering as you pose the questions in this thread. You seem to have thought deeply on some subject at which you are hinting.

I will post two more comments. One each on ideas about apparent paradoxes. If either of those are of interest to you, or anybody else who has posted on this thread, please comment. I have appreciated all the thoughts that have been shared here.

User avatar
Contemplator
captain of 100
Posts: 836

Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by Contemplator »

One source of apparent paradox occurs when we use words to express ideas and the words are not used carefully. A related problem arises when we assume that a statement means more than what it plainly says. An example has arisen around the Holy Ghost and the godhead.

Joseph Smith taught that the godhead is comprised of two personages and the Holy Spirit. Excerpting from Lectures on Faith, lecture 5:
2 There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things ... They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fulness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, ... And he being the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, and having overcome, received a fulness of the glory of the Father—possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit, that bears record of the Father and the Son, and these three are one, ... and these three constitute the Godhead, and are one: The Father and the Son possessing the same mind, the same wisdom, glory, power and fulness: ... being filled with the fulness of the Mind of the Father, or, in other words, the Spirit of the Father: which Spirit is shed forth upon all who believe on his name and keep his commandments: and all those who keep his commandments shall grow up from grace to grace, and become heirs of the heavenly kingdom, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ; possessing the same mind, being transformed into the same image or likeness, even the express image of him who fills all in all: being filled with the fulness of his glory, and become one in him, even as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one.
Later, we have recorded the following in D&C 130:
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
23 A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him.
The verses in D&C 130 do not say that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the godhead. I have heard people jump to that conclusion, though. If it were a description of the Godhead, then it would seem to be in contradiction to Lecture 5 of LoF. Also, I have heard people assert that the "Holy Spirit" of Lecture 5 is the Holy Ghost. That would also seem to create a paradox between these two references as the Holy Ghost is described as a personage but the Holy Spirit is not.

The resolution of this seeming paradox requires letting go of preconceptions and accepting a view of God wherein there are two personages in the godhead and, yet, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God. That understanding of God is to be had by revelation. The importance of this seeming paradox is seen in the next verse of Lecture 5:
3 From the foregoing account of the Godhead, which is given in his revelations, the Saints have a sure foundation laid for the exercise of faith unto life and salvation, through the atonement and mediation of Jesus Christ, by whose blood they have a forgiveness of sins, and also, a sure reward laid up for them in heaven, even that of partaking of the fulness of the Father and the Son, through the Spirit.

User avatar
Contemplator
captain of 100
Posts: 836

Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by Contemplator »

Another type of seeming paradox that may arise is analogous to what has been called the Abrahamic sacrifice. As horrible as it would be to be asked to offer up your own child as a sacrifice, I think that there may be a pattern that is more important that the particular sacrifice asked of Abraham. That pattern has to do with God asking us to sacrifice that which we hold most dear. In fact, it is offering up something that we have received from God.

Consider how Abraham is introduced in the second verse of the Book of Abraham:
2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.
Abraham desired certain blessings including, "to be a father of many nations." He obtained that promise from the Lord. Then, he had to wait for decades before he and Sarah tried to cause the fulfillment by bringing another wife into the family. That did not go very well. Then, finally and miraculously, God provided Isaac as a means of fulfilling the promises Abraham had received. It was that thing, the seeming fulfillment of God's promise, that Abraham was asked to offer up.

Nephi was also mentioned in this thread. His most basic characteristic seems to be described when he says in 1 Nephi 3:
7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.
Nephi seems to define himself as obedient to God's commandments. Yet, when it comes time to fulfill one of God's commandments he faces the problem of two commandments that are in conflict: first, thou shalt not kill and, second, get the plates. Nephi is asked to give up something that he feels is essential and fundamental to what God has given him.

This pattern seems to exist in other stories in the scriptures. For example, when Amulek introduces himself at the time that he and Alma were preaching in Ammonihah, he says in Alma 10:
5 Nevertheless, after all this, I never have known much of the ways of the Lord, and his mysteries and marvelous power. I said I never had known much of these things; but behold, I mistake, for I have seen much of his mysteries and his marvelous power; yea, even in the preservation of the lives of this people.
It is a short introduction but it includes that among the things that define Amulek's faith is the knowledge that God preserves the lives of His people by His marvelous power. This is the very thing that Amulek has to face in apparent paradox when he and Alma must watch Amulek's people slaughtered in Alma 14.

Another example could be Job. In the first three verses of the book of Job, we have this framing definition of Job:
1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

2 And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters.

3 His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.
Job is described as perfect and upright and as having been blessed with posterity and abundance. It is precisely that supposed blessing for being good that Job had to endure losing before he was declared a perfect man in the end.

One last example that may fit this pattern. Mary, the mother of Jesus, was told by an angel that her son would be the son of God. Further, she understood the messiah to be both son of God and king of Israel. I cannot imagine how difficult it may have been to see her son rejected and killed while holding on to the faith that this would lead to salvation for us all.

So, one other possible form of paradox that we may face is the seeming paradox of offering up something that we believe we received from God. I think this may be in the nature of the sacrifice God will ask of each of us. There will be something that we hold to be Good, given to us as a promise or a defining characteristic, that God will ask us to offer up. When we do that, we may enjoy the promise described in LoF, Lecture 6:7
When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has, for the truth's sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice, because he seeks to do his will, he does know most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life.

User avatar
BruceRGilbert
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1481
Location: Near the "City of Trees," Idaho

Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

Contemplator wrote: Another type of seeming paradox that may arise is analogous to what has been called the Abrahamic sacrifice. As horrible as it would be to be asked to offer up your own child as a sacrifice, I think that there may be a pattern that is more important that the particular sacrifice asked of Abraham. That pattern has to do with God asking us to sacrifice that which we hold most dear. In fact, it is offering up something that we have received from God.

Consider how Abraham is introduced in the second verse of the Book of Abraham:
2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.
Abraham desired certain blessings including, "to be a father of many nations." He obtained that promise from the Lord. Then, he had to wait for decades before he and Sarah tried to cause the fulfillment by bringing another wife into the family. That did not go very well. Then, finally and miraculously, God provided Isaac as a means of fulfilling the promises Abraham had received. It was that thing, the seeming fulfillment of God's promise, that Abraham was asked to offer up.

Nephi was also mentioned in this thread. His most basic characteristic seems to be described when he says in 1 Nephi 3:
7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.
Nephi seems to define himself as obedient to God's commandments. Yet, when it comes time to fulfill one of God's commandments he faces the problem of two commandments that are in conflict: first, thou shalt not kill and, second, get the plates. Nephi is asked to give up something that he feels is essential and fundamental to what God has given him.

This pattern seems to exist in other stories in the scriptures. For example, when Amulek introduces himself at the time that he and Alma were preaching in Ammonihah, he says in Alma 10:
5 Nevertheless, after all this, I never have known much of the ways of the Lord, and his mysteries and marvelous power. I said I never had known much of these things; but behold, I mistake, for I have seen much of his mysteries and his marvelous power; yea, even in the preservation of the lives of this people.
It is a short introduction but it includes that among the things that define Amulek's faith is the knowledge that God preserves the lives of His people by His marvelous power. This is the very thing that Amulek has to face in apparent paradox when he and Alma must watch Amulek's people slaughtered in Alma 14.

Another example could be Job. In the first three verses of the book of Job, we have this framing definition of Job:
1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

2 And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters.

3 His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.
Job is described as perfect and upright and as having been blessed with posterity and abundance. It is precisely that supposed blessing for being good that Job had to endure losing before he was declared a perfect man in the end.

One last example that may fit this pattern. Mary, the mother of Jesus, was told by an angel that her son would be the son of God. Further, she understood the messiah to be both son of God and king of Israel. I cannot imagine how difficult it may have been to see her son rejected and killed while holding on to the faith that this would lead to salvation for us all.

So, one other possible form of paradox that we may face is the seeming paradox of offering up something that we believe we received from God. I think this may be in the nature of the sacrifice God will ask of each of us. There will be something that we hold to be Good, given to us as a promise or a defining characteristic, that God will ask us to offer up. When we do that, we may enjoy the promise described in LoF, Lecture 6:7
When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has, for the truth's sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice, because he seeks to do his will, he does know most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life.
Very well done, Contemplator. Our "puzzle of life" is an accumulation of "keys" of knowledge that comprise the pieces with which to join together to produce the "masterpiece" concealed within. The interesting facet, is that - even though the "masterpiece" contained in the puzzle is the same, it is different. The "reward" is the same, but the actual pieces and order differ in shape, size and "reception." This is done so that "copying" and "expedition" cannot be garnished by "comparison" with another's puzzle. Each puzzle is unique and tailored to optimize the growth of its recipient. The last piece of the puzzle is the most valuable because it signifies "completion." Inherent in the construction, thereof, is the paradox of the "shapes" and "colors." The "test" resides in the observation of the "attitude" during the task.
John Taylor, the third President of the Church, said: “I heard the Prophet Joseph say, in speaking to the Twelve on one occasion: ‘You will have all kinds of trials to pass through. And it is quite as necessary for you to be tried as it was for Abraham and other men of God, and (said he) God will feel after you, and He will take hold of you and wrench your very heart strings, and if you cannot stand it you will not be fit for an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom of God.’

John Taylor, Deseret News: Semi-Weekly, Aug. 21, 1883, p. 1.
The "keys" of knowledge are often obtained from the least suspecting sources. If, in our arrogance or self-importance, we dismiss "others" because we feel that we are better than them or that they have nothing to offer - we will find holes in our puzzle. Growth is not in beholding the "masterpiece," but obtaining its pieces; the journey. "Keys," by the way, are exchanged. Contemplator, you have exchanged some very valuable keys for which you are to be commended. You have received in abundance and you have, likewise, shared in abundance. I discern that your puzzle is neigh to completion. If you have not heard that personal promise of the "more sure word," you will soon. Thank you.

User avatar
Contemplator
captain of 100
Posts: 836

Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by Contemplator »

BruceRGilbert wrote: February 19th, 2018, 3:21 pm
Contemplator wrote: Some stuff ...

Very well done, Contemplator. Our "puzzle of life" is an accumulation of "keys" of knowledge that comprise the pieces with which to join together to produce the "masterpiece" concealed within. The interesting facet, is that - even though the "masterpiece" contained in the puzzle is the same, it is different. The "reward" is the same, but the actual pieces and order differ in shape, size and "reception." This is done so that "copying" and "expedition" cannot be garnished by "comparison" with another's puzzle. Each puzzle is unique and tailored to optimize the growth of its recipient. The last piece of the puzzle is the most valuable because it signifies "completion." Inherent in the construction, thereof, is the paradox of the "shapes" and "colors." The "test" resides in the observation of the "attitude" during the task.
John Taylor, the third President of the Church, said: “I heard the Prophet Joseph say, in speaking to the Twelve on one occasion: ‘You will have all kinds of trials to pass through. And it is quite as necessary for you to be tried as it was for Abraham and other men of God, and (said he) God will feel after you, and He will take hold of you and wrench your very heart strings, and if you cannot stand it you will not be fit for an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom of God.’

John Taylor, Deseret News: Semi-Weekly, Aug. 21, 1883, p. 1.
The "keys" of knowledge are often obtained from the least suspecting sources. If, in our arrogance or self-importance, we dismiss "others" because we feel that we are better than them or that they have nothing to offer - we will find holes in our puzzle. Growth is not in beholding the "masterpiece," but obtaining its pieces; the journey. "Keys," by the way, are exchanged. Contemplator, you have exchanged some very valuable keys for which you are to be commended. You have received in abundance and you have, likewise, shared in abundance. I discern that your puzzle is neigh to completion. If you have not heard that personal promise of the "more sure word," you will soon. Thank you.
BruceRGilbert,

Your response was very helpful and on point. Thank you. You mentioned the idea that "keys" are exchanged. As I mentioned before, I am not sure what the significance of the quotes are on the word "keys." But, I am inferring that you mean to imply that the deeper reality that is represented by the word "keys" is something that is exchanged between people as we go through life. Keys of knowledge would be one example, with which I would concur.

An example of this type of exchange may be found in the parable of the talents. It says, in Matthew 25:
14 ¶ For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
We might imagine that the man represents the Lord and the man's goods might represent those things that the Lord entrusts to each of us, including gifts of the spirit or keys of knowledge. The man gave some of his goods to three people: 5 talents of his goods to one, 2 talents to the next, and 1 talent to the third. The first did as described:
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
He traded, or exchanged, to turn his goods into twice as much as he originally received from his lord in the parable. In traditional economics we think of trade making both parties just a little better off through specialization and exchange. In the Lord's economy, when we trade, we double the Lord's goods. Thus, when you and I exchange, I receive and your share of the Lord's goods is not diminished. Likewise, I hope that you receive and my share of the Lord's goods is not diminished. In fact, through exchange we can both double our share of the Lord's goods (such as keys of knowledge).

Upon the return of his lord, the man with 5 talents of his lord's goods reported and was told:
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
I hope I will be found exchanging in this manner. Thank you for what you have shared!

Juliet
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3728

Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by Juliet »

I think we change. The law of Moses was fulfilled for example. If God is teaching us to tie our shoe, first we have to pull the string one way and then exact opposite. When the shoe is tied, we will see how both ways were part of the whole.

I don't think we are perfect. Hence in the gospel we are taught to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit so we can continue to be taught. If no one has seen the color orange then no one can teach about it. Hence we all need to be going to the Lord individually to be taught the mysteries of heaven.

User avatar
BruceRGilbert
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1481
Location: Near the "City of Trees," Idaho

Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

Contemplator wrote: BruceRGilbert,

Your response was very helpful and on point. Thank you. You mentioned the idea that "keys" are exchanged. As I mentioned before, I am not sure what the significance of the quotes are on the word "keys." But, I am inferring that you mean to imply that the deeper reality that is represented by the word "keys" is something that is exchanged between people as we go through life. Keys of knowledge would be one example, with which I would concur.

An example of this type of exchange may be found in the parable of the talents. It says, in Matthew 25:
14 ¶ For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
We might imagine that the man represents the Lord and the man's goods might represent those things that the Lord entrusts to each of us, including gifts of the spirit or keys of knowledge. The man gave some of his goods to three people: 5 talents of his goods to one, 2 talents to the next, and 1 talent to the third. The first did as described:
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
He traded, or exchanged, to turn his goods into twice as much as he originally received from his lord in the parable. In traditional economics we think of trade making both parties just a little better off through specialization and exchange. In the Lord's economy, when we trade, we double the Lord's goods. Thus, when you and I exchange, I receive and your share of the Lord's goods is not diminished. Likewise, I hope that you receive and my share of the Lord's goods is not diminished. In fact, through exchange we can both double our share of the Lord's goods (such as keys of knowledge).

Upon the return of his lord, the man with 5 talents of his lord's goods reported and was told:
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
I hope I will be found exchanging in this manner. Thank you for what you have shared!
Again, a very appreciated exchange. Thank you. I have benefited from that which - like a flame - is not diminished in the kindling of another. You have offered "insight" that is unique to your perceptions, but expanding - as well - to mine. Hence, in the validation, we are both edified.
Romans 14:
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Doctrine and Covenants 50:
17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?

18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God.

19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?

20 If it be some other way it is not of God.

21 Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth?

22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.

23 And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.

24 That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.
It behooves me to share the reason why I have emphasized "keys." You, Contemplator, have correctly identified them as that which is received from God. They are "tokens" by which we are able to recognize and pass by one another. ;)

User avatar
BruceRGilbert
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1481
Location: Near the "City of Trees," Idaho

Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

Juliet wrote: I think we change. The law of Moses was fulfilled for example. If God is teaching us to tie our shoe, first we have to pull the string one way and then exact opposite. When the shoe is tied, we will see how both ways were part of the whole.

I don't think we are perfect. Hence in the gospel we are taught to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit so we can continue to be taught. If no one has seen the color orange then no one can teach about it. Hence we all need to be going to the Lord individually to be taught the mysteries of heaven.
The Holy Spirit may refer to all endowments (in order:) Light of Christ, Holy Ghost, and Spirit of Christ. The "Light of Christ" is part of the Pre-mortal Endowment. The Holy Ghost is the "Confirmation." The Spirit of Christ is the "Sacrament" and "Terrestrial Liason."

Image

The enigma of the flame: LIGHT and HEAT - Enlightenment and Nurture (The Second Comforter) - Light of Christ and Spirit of Christ. The Olive Oil represents the Holy Ghost. (The First Comforter)

The Source is of Heaven,
The "Re sources" are of the dust of the Earth.

User avatar
The Airbender
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1377

Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by The Airbender »

Rand wrote: February 18th, 2018, 6:21 pm
The Airbender wrote: February 18th, 2018, 2:44 pm I've come to believe that the greatest truths are often found in paradox, for what it's worth.
explain further please.
Well, sometimes it seems like I am being led on a wild goose chase. I will feel very strongly about a certain principle and come to an understanding of it. A few years or so later I will be given additional revelation that seems to contradict what I was told before, but it makes sense and I am better for the struggle of gaining the revelation. Let me see if I can think of a specific example...

User avatar
Contemplator
captain of 100
Posts: 836

Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by Contemplator »

BruceRGilbert wrote: February 19th, 2018, 3:21 pm ... Our "puzzle of life" is an accumulation of "keys" of knowledge that comprise the pieces with which to join together to produce the "masterpiece" concealed within. The interesting facet, is that - even though the "masterpiece" contained in the puzzle is the same, it is different. The "reward" is the same, but the actual pieces and order differ in shape, size and "reception." This is done so that "copying" and "expedition" cannot be garnished by "comparison" with another's puzzle. Each puzzle is unique and tailored to optimize the growth of its recipient. The last piece of the puzzle is the most valuable because it signifies "completion." Inherent in the construction, thereof, is the paradox of the "shapes" and "colors." The "test" resides in the observation of the "attitude" during the task.

...
Hello BruceRGilbert,

In the last sentence of your comment, above, you refer to our "attitude" during the task. I came across an interesting statement today in a documentary about Yoga. The statement is, "It is not what we go through in life but how we go through in life that makes all the difference." It struck me that this quote may be getting at a similar idea to what you were saying.

As I thought about this, the elder brother in the parable of the prodigal son came to mind. The father says to the elder brother, " Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine." I think sometimes we spend so much time and energy trying to earn what God has already given us. We work and work to feel worthy when, in fact, God is saying to us, " Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine."

If you have any thoughts along these lines (or along any lines ;-)) , They would be welcome.

User avatar
BruceRGilbert
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1481
Location: Near the "City of Trees," Idaho

Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

May God bless you to find the "keys."
Matthew 20:
1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,

4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.

5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Doctrine and Covenants 88:
36 All kingdoms have a law given;

37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

39 All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.
.
.
.
46 Unto what shall I liken these kingdoms, that ye may understand?

47 Behold, all these are kingdoms, and any man who hath seen any or the least of these hath seen God moving in his majesty and power.
.
.
.
51 Behold, I will liken these kingdoms unto a man having a field, and he sent forth his servants into the field to dig in the field.

52 And he said unto the first: Go ye and labor in the field, and in the first hour I will come unto you, and ye shall behold the joy of my countenance.

53 And he said unto the second: Go ye also into the field, and in the second hour I will visit you with the joy of my countenance.

54 And also unto the third, saying: I will visit you;

55 And unto the fourth, and so on unto the twelfth.

56 And the lord of the field went unto the first in the first hour, and tarried with him all that hour, and he was made glad with the light of the countenance of his lord.

57 And then he withdrew from the first that he might visit the second also, and the third, and the fourth, and so on unto the twelfth.

58 And thus they all received the light of the countenance of their lord, every man in his hour, and in his time, and in his season—

59 Beginning at the first, and so on unto the last, and from the last unto the first, and from the first unto the last;

60 Every man in his own order, until his hour was finished, even according as his lord had commanded him, that his lord might be glorified in him, and he in his lord, that they all might be glorified.

61 Therefore, unto this parable I will liken all these kingdoms, and the inhabitants thereof—every kingdom in its hour, and in its time, and in its season, even according to the decree which God hath made.

62 And again, verily I say unto you, my friends, I leave these sayings with you to ponder in your hearts, with this commandment which I give unto you, that ye shall call upon me while I am near—

63 Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you; seek me diligently and ye shall find me; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

64 Whatsoever ye ask the Father in my name it shall be given unto you, that is expedient for you;

65 And if ye ask anything that is not expedient for you, it shall turn unto your condemnation.
.
.
.
68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.
.
.
.
70 Tarry ye, tarry ye in this place, and call a solemn assembly, even of those who are the first laborers in this last kingdom.
.
.
.
73 Behold, I will hasten my work in its time.

74 And I give unto you, who are the first laborers in this last kingdom, a commandment that you assemble yourselves together, and organize yourselves, and prepare yourselves, and sanctify yourselves; yea, purify your hearts, and cleanse your hands and your feet before me, that I may make you clean;

75 That I may testify unto your Father, and your God, and my God, that you are clean from the blood of this wicked generation; that I may fulfil this promise, this great and last promise, which I have made unto you, when I will.

76 Also, I give unto you a commandment that ye shall continue in prayer and fasting from this time forth.

77 And I give unto you a commandment that you shall teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom.
.
.
.
122 Appoint among yourselves a teacher, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege.
Jacob 5:
41 And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard wept, and said unto the servant: What could I have done more for my vineyard?

42 Behold, I knew that all the fruit of the vineyard, save it were these, had become corrupted. And now these which have once brought forth good fruit have also become corrupted; and now all the trees of my vineyard are good for nothing save it be to be hewn down and cast into the fire.

43 And behold this last, whose branch hath withered away, I did plant in a good spot of ground; yea, even that which was choice unto me above all other parts of the land of my vineyard.

44 And thou beheldest that I also cut down that which cumbered this spot of ground, that I might plant this tree in the stead thereof.

45 And thou beheldest that a part thereof brought forth good fruit, and a part thereof brought forth wild fruit; and because I plucked not the branches thereof and cast them into the fire, behold, they have overcome the good branch that it hath withered away.

46 And now, behold, notwithstanding all the care which we have taken of my vineyard, the trees thereof have become corrupted, that they bring forth no good fruit; and these I had hoped to preserve, to have laid up fruit thereof against the season, unto mine own self. But, behold, they have become like unto the wild olive tree, and they are of no worth but to be hewn down and cast into the fire; and it grieveth me that I should lose them.

47 But what could I have done more in my vineyard? Have I slackened mine hand, that I have not nourished it? Nay, I have nourished it, and I have digged about it, and I have pruned it, and I have dunged it; and I have stretched forth mine hand almost all the day long, and the end draweth nigh. And it grieveth me that I should hew down all the trees of my vineyard, and cast them into the fire that they should be burned. Who is it that has corrupted my vineyard?

48 And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: Is it not the loftiness of thy vineyard—have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? And because the branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the strength of the roots, taking strength unto themselves. Behold, I say, is not this the cause that the trees of thy vineyard have become corrupted?

49 And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard said unto the servant: Let us go to and hew down the trees of the vineyard and cast them into the fire, that they shall not cumber the ground of my vineyard, for I have done all. What could I have done more for my vineyard?

50 But, behold, the servant said unto the Lord of the vineyard: Spare it a little longer.

51 And the Lord said: Yea, I will spare it a little longer, for it grieveth me that I should lose the trees of my vineyard.

52 Wherefore, let us take of the branches of these which I have planted in the nethermost parts of my vineyard, and let us graft them into the tree from whence they came; and let us pluck from the tree those branches whose fruit is most bitter, and graft in the natural branches of the tree in the stead thereof.

53 And this will I do that the tree may not perish, that, perhaps, I may preserve unto myself the roots thereof for mine own purpose.

54 And, behold, the roots of the natural branches of the tree which I planted whithersoever I would are yet alive; wherefore, that I may preserve them also for mine own purpose, I will take of the branches of this tree, and I will graft them in unto them. Yea, I will graft in unto them the branches of their mother tree, that I may preserve the roots also unto mine own self, that when they shall be sufficiently strong perhaps they may bring forth good fruit unto me, and I may yet have glory in the fruit of my vineyard.

55 And it came to pass that they took from the natural tree which had become wild, and grafted in unto the natural trees, which also had become wild.

56 And they also took of the natural trees which had become wild, and grafted into their mother tree.

57 And the Lord of the vineyard said unto the servant: Pluck not the wild branches from the trees, save it be those which are most bitter; and in them ye shall graft according to that which I have said.

58 And we will nourish again the trees of the vineyard, and we will trim up the branches thereof; and we will pluck from the trees those branches which are ripened, that must perish, and cast them into the fire.

59 And this I do that, perhaps, the roots thereof may take strength because of their goodness; and because of the change of the branches, that the good may overcome the evil.

60 And because that I have preserved the natural branches and the roots thereof, and that I have grafted in the natural branches again into their mother tree, and have preserved the roots of their mother tree, that, perhaps, the trees of my vineyard may bring forth again good fruit; and that I may have joy again in the fruit of my vineyard, and, perhaps, that I may rejoice exceedingly that I have preserved the roots and the branches of the first fruit—

61 Wherefore, go to, and call servants, that we may labor diligently with our might in the vineyard, that we may prepare the way, that I may bring forth again the natural fruit, which natural fruit is good and the most precious above all other fruit.

62 Wherefore, let us go to and labor with our might this last time, for behold the end draweth nigh, and this is for the last time that I shall prune my vineyard.

63 Graft in the branches; begin at the last that they may be first, and that the first may be last, and dig about the trees, both old and young, the first and the last; and the last and the first, that all may be nourished once again for the last time.

64 Wherefore, dig about them, and prune them, and dung them once more, for the last time, for the end draweth nigh. And if it be so that these last grafts shall grow, and bring forth the natural fruit, then shall ye prepare the way for them, that they may grow.

65 And as they begin to grow ye shall clear away the branches which bring forth bitter fruit, according to the strength of the good and the size thereof; and ye shall not clear away the bad thereof all at once, lest the roots thereof should be too strong for the graft, and the graft thereof shall perish, and I lose the trees of my vineyard.

66 For it grieveth me that I should lose the trees of my vineyard; wherefore ye shall clear away the bad according as the good shall grow, that the root and the top may be equal in strength, until the good shall overcome the bad, and the bad be hewn down and cast into the fire, that they cumber not the ground of my vineyard; and thus will I sweep away the bad out of my vineyard.

67 And the branches of the natural tree will I graft in again into the natural tree;

68 And the branches of the natural tree will I graft into the natural branches of the tree; and thus will I bring them together again, that they shall bring forth the natural fruit, and they shall be one.

69 And the bad shall be cast away, yea, even out of all the land of my vineyard; for behold, only this once will I prune my vineyard.

70 And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard sent his servant; and the servant went and did as the Lord had commanded him, and brought other servants; and they were few.

71 And the Lord of the vineyard said unto them: Go to, and labor in the vineyard, with your might. For behold, this is the last time that I shall nourish my vineyard; for the end is nigh at hand, and the season speedily cometh; and if ye labor with your might with me ye shall have joy in the fruit which I shall lay up unto myself against the time which will soon come.

72 And it came to pass that the servants did go and labor with their mights; and the Lord of the vineyard labored also with them; and they did obey the commandments of the Lord of the vineyard in all things.

73 And there began to be the natural fruit again in the vineyard; and the natural branches began to grow and thrive exceedingly; and the wild branches began to be plucked off and to be cast away; and they did keep the root and the top thereof equal, according to the strength thereof.

74 And thus they labored, with all diligence, according to the commandments of the Lord of the vineyard, even until the bad had been cast away out of the vineyard, and the Lord had preserved unto himself that the trees had become again the natural fruit; and they became like unto one body; and the fruits were equal; and the Lord of the vineyard had preserved unto himself the natural fruit, which was most precious unto him from the beginning.

75 And it came to pass that when the Lord of the vineyard saw that his fruit was good, and that his vineyard was no more corrupt, he called up his servants, and said unto them: Behold, for this last time have we nourished my vineyard; and thou beholdest that I have done according to my will; and I have preserved the natural fruit, that it is good, even like as it was in the beginning. And blessed art thou; for because ye have been diligent in laboring with me in my vineyard, and have kept my commandments, and have brought unto me again the natural fruit, that my vineyard is no more corrupted, and the bad is cast away, behold ye shall have joy with me because of the fruit of my vineyard.

76 For behold, for a long time will I lay up of the fruit of my vineyard unto mine own self against the season, which speedily cometh; and for the last time have I nourished my vineyard, and pruned it, and dug about it, and dunged it; wherefore I will lay up unto mine own self of the fruit, for a long time, according to that which I have spoken.

77 And when the time cometh that evil fruit shall again come into my vineyard, then will I cause the good and the bad to be gathered; and the good will I preserve unto myself, and the bad will I cast away into its own place. And then cometh the season and the end; and my vineyard will I cause to be burned with fire.
There comes a time in our progression when we will not do things because of what is to be personally gained, thereby. Our "fulfillment" will be based upon the happiness of others - and most often, based upon our silent sacrifices. Are you capable of this measure of love?

User avatar
BruceRGilbert
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1481
Location: Near the "City of Trees," Idaho

Re: Blood Oaths, Polygamy and Reformation Paradoxes: Why?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

Behold and discern the goal:
Doctrine and Covenants 84:
96 For I, the Almighty, have laid my hands upon the nations, to scourge them for their wickedness.

97 And plagues shall go forth, and they shall not be taken from the earth until I have completed my work, which shall be cut short in righteousness

98 Until all shall know me, who remain, even from the least unto the greatest, and shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord, and shall see eye to eye, and shall lift up their voice, and with the voice together sing this new song, saying:

99 The Lord hath brought again Zion;The Lord hath redeemed his people, Israel,According to the election of grace,Which was brought to pass by the faithAnd covenant of their fathers.

100 The Lord hath redeemed his people;And Satan is bound and time is no longer.The Lord hath gathered all things in one.The Lord hath brought down Zion from above.The Lord hath brought up Zion from beneath.

101 The earth hath travailed and brought forth her strength;And truth is established in her bowels;And the heavens have smiled upon her;And she is clothed with the glory of her God;For he stands in the midst of his people.

102 Glory, and honor, and power, and might,Be ascribed to our God; for he is full of mercy,Justice, grace and truth, and peace,Forever and ever, Amen.
Doctrine and Covenants 109:
59 We ask thee to appoint unto Zion other stakes besides this one which thou hast appointed, that the gathering of thy people may roll on in great power and majesty, that thy work may be cut short in righteousness.
Romans 9:
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
By being righteous, the desolation of abomination can be cut short in righteousness. It can be but for the briefest of times.

Post Reply