Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
Post Reply
drtanner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1850

Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by drtanner »

There is another thread discussing the different kingdoms and what happens in different scenarios and as I was reading in the Book of Mormon it got me thinking and searching about what the real perception of Heaven was in the Book of Mormon. (Some Interesting verses I will post later to discuss) There does not appear to be any evidence of the teachings of different glories (at least to the masses). What do you think? How did the people view the next life? Does this perception change anything in terms of how the people acted or repented compared to those who may interpret section 76 differently? Would this be an important distinction to make? Why or Why not?

User avatar
inho
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3286
Location: in a galaxy far, far away

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by inho »

Interesting question. I do not know. I wonder if a fuzzier theology on the post-mortal state of the souls could lead to better focus on our actions in this life. Or is it the opposite: better understanding about potential future reward motivates more.

EDIT: corrected the sentence to make more sense
Last edited by inho on January 26th, 2018, 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Serragon
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3444

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by Serragon »

inho wrote: January 26th, 2018, 10:38 am Interesting question. I do not know. I wonder if a fuzzier theology on the post-mortal state of the souls could lead to better focus on our actions in this life. Or is it the opposite: inadequate understanding about potential future reward motivates more.
I had a friend who took about 15 years before he got baptized. His comment was always "I'm fine with the telestial kingdom." It wasn't until he met a woman who wanted to be sealed that his motivations changed.

User avatar
Arenera
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2712

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by Arenera »

1 Nephi 8
3 And behold, because of the thing which I have seen, I have reason to rejoice in the Lord because of Nephi and also of Sam; for I have reason to suppose that they, and also many of their seed, will be saved.

4 But behold, Laman and Lemuel, I fear exceedingly because of you; for behold, methought I saw in my dream, a dark and dreary wilderness.

17 And it came to pass that I was desirous that Laman and Lemuel should come and partake of the fruit also; wherefore, I cast mine eyes towards the head of the river, that perhaps I might see them.

18 And it came to pass that I saw them, but they would not come unto me and partake of the fruit.

35 And Laman and Lemuel partook not of the fruit, said my father.

36 And it came to pass after my father had spoken all the words of his dream or vision, which were many, he said unto us, because of these things which he saw in a vision, he exceedingly feared for Laman and Lemuel; yea, he feared lest they should be cast off from the presence of the Lord.

37 And he did exhort them then with all the feeling of a tender parent, that they would hearken to his words, that perhaps the Lord would be merciful to them, and not cast them off; yea, my father did preach unto them.

38 And after he had preached unto them, and also prophesied unto them of many things, he bade them to keep the commandments of the Lord; and he did cease speaking unto them.
What does it mean to be saved?
What does it mean to be cast off from the presence of the Lord?

JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9831

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by JohnnyL »

Yeah, going to the definition of eternal and eternity in the DaC, the Lord says it helped people repent.

In the BoM, it was fuzzier and pretty black and white, at least from what we have. Here, or there. Though it does present salvation for children, heathen, those without the law. It was basically for the Nephite basic thinking--you know, or know and rebel--and this is what heaven and hell were presented for.

User avatar
oneClimbs
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3187
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by oneClimbs »

I've heard it said that there is a fine line between prophecy and poetry. That line is even thinner between poetry and art, thus prophecy and art are also closely-related and in many ways synonymous in how they can communicate rich depth and ideas that transcend words. Consider an art museum and the many different kinds of art you find. You have photography, photo-realism, abstract impressionism, pointillism, sculpture, and a wide variety of ways that human beings have used to express the realities around them.

If you asked 1000 people to draw a house you would get a variety styles and depictions but each would be expression of how a person perceives, understands, and then expresses what they think are the key elements of what they felt were most significant. In the same sense, when different people see heaven, or parts of it, or aspects of its operations, they may not all depict it in the same way, they may not all point out the exact same elements.

To expect every single account of heaven being the same, we would have to conclude that everyone saw the exact same thing in the exact same way. Even if that was the case, we would also have to assume that each person living in a different place, time, and culture, often separated by thousands of years understood equally and placed an equal emphasis on what portions of what they saw were worthy of recording, or applicable to their people, or were allowed by God.

This is not an answer, just another way of seeing something.

drtanner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1850

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by drtanner »

5tev3 wrote: January 26th, 2018, 1:19 pm I've heard it said that there is a fine line between prophecy and poetry. That line is even thinner between poetry and art, thus prophecy and art are also closely-related and in many ways synonymous in how they can communicate rich depth and ideas that transcend words. Consider an art museum and the many different kinds of art you find. You have photography, photo-realism, abstract impressionism, pointillism, sculpture, and a wide variety of ways that human beings have used to express the realities around them.

If you asked 1000 people to draw a house you would get a variety styles and depictions but each would be expression of how a person perceives, understands, and then expresses what they think are the key elements of what they felt were most significant. In the same sense, when different people see heaven, or parts of it, or aspects of its operations, they may not all depict it in the same way, they may not all point out the exact same elements.

To expect every single account of heaven being the same, we would have to conclude that everyone saw the exact same thing in the exact same way. Even if that was the case, we would also have to assume that each person living in a different place, time, and culture, often separated by thousands of years understood equally and placed an equal emphasis on what portions of what they saw were worthy of recording, or applicable to their people, or were allowed by God.

This is not an answer, just another way of seeing something.
Great analogy, I also can’t imagine the lack of words as individuals try and describe heaven and the “perceived” conditions that seem to exist for those to be there during the view that is presented. Then you have the 2nd hand perceptions as individuals try and interpret what the 1st accounts mean. I see more of an all or nothing perception to salvation in the BOM compared to a differing degrees of glory and all that was revealed in the D&C. Just curious how or if that may influence the behavior and culture of the church. I to have heard many say they would be satisfied with the Telestial. Wondering if those same individuals would have a different sentiment in Book of Mormon times and if there is anything in the verses that points to what specific thoughts may have influenced a desire to repent.
Last edited by drtanner on January 26th, 2018, 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
oneClimbs
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3187
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by oneClimbs »

drtanner wrote: January 26th, 2018, 2:06 pmGreat analogy, I also can’t imagine the lack of words as individuals try and describe heaven and the “perceived” conditions that seem to exist for those to be there during the view that is presented. Then you have the 2nd hand perceptions as individuals try and interpret what the 1st accounts mean. I see more of an all or nothing perception to salvation in the BOM compared to a differing degrees of glory and all that was revealed in the D&C. Just curious how or if that may influence the behavior and culture of the church. I to have heard many say they would be satisfied with the tealestial. Wondering if those same individuals would have a different sentiment in Book of Mormon times and if there is anything in the verses that points to what specific thoughts may have influenced a desire to repent.
We know that God reveals certain things to certain people at certain times for certain reasons. Back then, things were simpler. People had very little and knew very little. We live in a day and age of massive amounts of information. Having more options is like a mist of darkness as the truth gets lost among vast numbers of other ideas. Just as our understanding has increased across virtually every subject, a simple heaven and hell paradigm has been shown to be more complex than once imagined. The challenge it presents today is reflective of our times. People do not strive for excellence anymore, instead they settle for what is easy and comfortable.

People will reject Celestial glory for Telestial because they can identify with it more. If Telestial glory is similar to here but a little better, then that would be heaven for most. Celestial glory sounds as complex and unachievable as becoming an Olympic gold medalist. This is mainly due to the ignorance people have of these things compounded by false ideologies that constantly put down people as filthy sinners who are incapable of holiness.

In simpler times, you had heaven and hell, liberty and captivity. In truth, those are the same options, it is just that there are more degrees of each. This truth need not stop us from adjusting our perspective and living as if there were only heaven and hell. If we did, perhaps we'd be better off, and perhaps that is why we have both the D&C and the Book of Mormon. There is the truth, and then there is how you look at it and live accordingly.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10354
Contact:

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by marc »

3 Nephi 28:12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he touched every one of them with his finger save it were the three who were to tarry, and then he departed.

13 And behold, the heavens were opened, and they were caught up into heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable things.

14 And it was forbidden them that they should utter; neither was it given unto them power that they could utter the things which they saw and heard;

15 And whether they were in the body or out of the body, they could not tell; for it did seem unto them like a transfiguration of them, that they were changed from this body of flesh into an immortal state, that they could behold the things of God.

16 But it came to pass that they did again minister upon the face of the earth; nevertheless they did not minister of the things which they had heard and seen, because of the commandment which was given them in heaven.

Rand
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2472

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by Rand »

I have always believed that the Book of Mormons refers to heaven in the context of the Celestial Kingdom or higher only. Any other Kingdom is a limited eternal experience, and thus damnation. The Father and Son will dwell in a Celestial level glory. The Son may visit a lower glory, but only those living in the Celestial worlds will dwell with them.

User avatar
BruceRGilbert
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1472
Location: Near the "City of Trees," Idaho

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by BruceRGilbert »

Lehi's Dream depicts and characterizes the Degrees of Glory very well and was had early on by the "faithful" of the Book of Mormon. A careful analysis of that dream as given by both Lehi and Nephi in conjunction with Section 76 will reveal the similitude of what was shown. Please note that all involved received exactly that which they sought.

User avatar
BruceRGilbert
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1472
Location: Near the "City of Trees," Idaho

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by BruceRGilbert »

Lehi had a dream inspiring his son to seek the same.
From many diverse quarters, the sojourners came.
There was a "way" to be followed, obscured at times from sight.
Those who would "press forward" do so with their might.
Through trying times of blindness, their grasp became sound,
Learning that without sight - by "feel" the way is found.
What is in a quest and what makes one so brave?
Is there something magnificent that individuals crave?
Alas, there is a treasure that lay beyond the rod
That motivates the traveler to stay the pathway plod.
Tis the "Glory of the Ages," more precious than gold
that makes a disciples footsteps so earnest and so bold.
Tis a "Fountain of Peace," so precious, true and pure
that makes one's calling and election resolutely sure.
Tis approbation of Our God, Glorious be His name,
Sharing Infinite Love and Wisdom to magnify His fame.
Joy in the journey have in order to attain His tree,
In attaining its recognition, you truly are made free.

God bless you and keep you to destination's end.
~Bruce Gilbert~

inquirringmind
captain of 100
Posts: 899

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by inquirringmind »

The remnant folks say that no one who's heard the restored gospel can get to heaven (the third heaven, where God is) without achieving perfection, and being admitted into God's presence, while here in the flesh.

Can it be proven, from scripture, that that's false doctrine?

Or could they be right?

They don't accept D&C 138 as scripture btw.

So is there any evidence, aside from D&C 138, that they're teaching false doctrine here?

User avatar
inho
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3286
Location: in a galaxy far, far away

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by inho »

inquirringmind wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 7:16 am The remnant folks say that no one who's heard the restored gospel can get to heaven (the third heaven, where God is) without achieving perfection, and being admitted into God's presence, while here in the flesh.

Can it be proven, from scripture, that that's false doctrine?

Or could they be right?

They don't accept D&C 138 as scripture btw.

So is there any evidence, aside from D&C 138, that they're teaching false doctrine here?
That would mean that no one living without the chance to accept the Gospel can get into the highest glory. Unless there are multiple mortal probations. Do you really mean to refer to D&C 138 or did you mean 137, where Joseph saw his unbaptized dead brother Alvin in the celestial kingdom?

Anyway, what does it even mean to hear the gospel? Does it mean that missionaries taught you the first lesson? That you read the BoM and felt the Spirit? Is it on/off thing? In my opinion conversion is a process, and it is more important that what direction you are heading than how far you get. Just as not all have the chance to accept the gospel, not all who do have as much time to progress.

On top of my head, I cannot come up with any scriptures to refute their arguments. However, scripture bashing is usually pointless anyway. People can interpret the same passages with so many different ways.

User avatar
Arenera
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2712

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by Arenera »

See 2nd Nephi 33.

7 I have charity for my people, and great faith in Christ that I shall meet many souls spotless at his judgment-seat.

12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day.

15 For what I seal on earth, shall be brought against you at the judgment bar; for thus hath the Lord commanded me, and I must obey. Amen.
There is a need to ponder. Sometimes answers are given in unlikely verses.

Would it be fair for people to be judged strictly on their experience on earth?

How encompassing is Christ’s Sacrifice?

How much does God love his children?

Nephi had the sealing power. What does Nephi mean by “many of us, if not all”? Certainly most Nephites and all Lamanites didn’t meet the mark...

I prefer to believe Nephi than a restrictive remnant group.

drtanner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1850

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by drtanner »

Arenera wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 8:38 am
See 2nd Nephi 33.

7 I have charity for my people, and great faith in Christ that I shall meet many souls spotless at his judgment-seat.

12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day.

15 For what I seal on earth, shall be brought against you at the judgment bar; for thus hath the Lord commanded me, and I must obey. Amen.
There is a need to ponder. Sometimes answers are given in unlikely verses.

Would it be fair for people to be judged strictly on their experience on earth?

How encompassing is Christ’s Sacrifice?

How much does God love his children?

Nephi had the sealing power. What does Nephi mean by “many of us, if not all”? Certainly most Nephites and all Lamanites didn’t meet the mark...

I prefer to believe Nephi than a restrictive remnant group.
I have also thought about this vs, in contrast to “few there be” that find it / “many are called few are chosen” etc. Is Nephi expressing the wish of his heart or is this a forshadowing of the reality of heaven. One thing is for sure, we there are certainly a lot of gaps to fill and lines to read between what is written about the spirit world.

User avatar
Arenera
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2712

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by Arenera »

drtanner wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 8:44 am
Arenera wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 8:38 am
See 2nd Nephi 33.

7 I have charity for my people, and great faith in Christ that I shall meet many souls spotless at his judgment-seat.

12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day.

15 For what I seal on earth, shall be brought against you at the judgment bar; for thus hath the Lord commanded me, and I must obey. Amen.
There is a need to ponder. Sometimes answers are given in unlikely verses.

Would it be fair for people to be judged strictly on their experience on earth?

How encompassing is Christ’s Sacrifice?

How much does God love his children?

Nephi had the sealing power. What does Nephi mean by “many of us, if not all”? Certainly most Nephites and all Lamanites didn’t meet the mark...

I prefer to believe Nephi than a restrictive remnant group.
I have also thought about this vs, in contrast to “few there be” that find it / “many are called few are chosen” etc. Is Nephi expressing the wish of his heart or is this a forshadowing of the reality of heaven. One thing is for sure, we there are certainly a lot of gaps to fill and lines to read between what is written about the spirit world.
This is far more than a wish. Nephi has the sealing power. Nephi saw the end result of his people. Nephi has seen the end result of the gentiles, and the Covenenat people.

Even with our limited understanding, we know that God has to be perfectly fair. If only a few people make it, you would have to say that this earth was wasted. You can look around and see that some situations are not close to being fair or equal.

How do do you feel about your children? I suspect you love them all. I suspect you will do anything to keep them, even is some go astray.

The Prodigal Son is about someone who went astray and finally came to their senses. That is another example that is hidden unless you ponder.

How complete was Christ’s Sacrifice? Infinite. Ponder that.

drtanner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1850

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by drtanner »

Arenera wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 9:01 am
drtanner wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 8:44 am
Arenera wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 8:38 am
See 2nd Nephi 33.

7 I have charity for my people, and great faith in Christ that I shall meet many souls spotless at his judgment-seat.

12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day.

15 For what I seal on earth, shall be brought against you at the judgment bar; for thus hath the Lord commanded me, and I must obey. Amen.
There is a need to ponder. Sometimes answers are given in unlikely verses.

Would it be fair for people to be judged strictly on their experience on earth?

How encompassing is Christ’s Sacrifice?

How much does God love his children?

Nephi had the sealing power. What does Nephi mean by “many of us, if not all”? Certainly most Nephites and all Lamanites didn’t meet the mark...

I prefer to believe Nephi than a restrictive remnant group.
I have also thought about this vs, in contrast to “few there be” that find it / “many are called few are chosen” etc. Is Nephi expressing the wish of his heart or is this a forshadowing of the reality of heaven. One thing is for sure, we there are certainly a lot of gaps to fill and lines to read between what is written about the spirit world.
This is far more than a wish. Nephi has the sealing power. Nephi saw the end result of his people. Nephi has seen the end result of the gentiles, and the Covenenat people.

Even with our limited understanding, we know that God has to be perfectly fair. If only a few people make it, you would have to say that this earth was wasted. You can look around and see that some situations are not close to being fair or equal.

How do do you feel about your children? I suspect you love them all. I suspect you will do anything to keep them, even is some go astray.

The Prodigal Son is about someone who went astray and finally came to their senses. That is another example that is hidden unless you ponder.

How complete was Christ’s Sacrifice? Infinite. Ponder that.
Yes, this is a topic that I have pondered and studied in the Scriptures and words of living prophets for over 10 years and the verdict is still out for me on the details. There is good evidence for both sides and opinions on both sides all the way up to the twelve and first presidencies of the past. One scripture that has made me ponder quite a bit is D&C 19:
4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

21 And I command you that you preach naught but repentance, and show not these things unto the world until it is wisdom in me.

22 For they cannot bear meat now, but milk they must receive; wherefore, they must not know these things, lest they perish.

An old forum friend Bob Henstra (who has passed on) and I started talking about this several years ago. He has probably done more research on the topic then anyone I know. In 2006 he sent me a presentation on salvation that he had studied most of his life. Ironically we lost touch for several years and I didn't discover he was on this forum until fairly recently. This is him memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1167

A few good discussions where he chimes in on the subject:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5645
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32409
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=14358

This is long but I will include, and is what he sent me back in 2006.
Just what is Salvation? Just who is saved?

Supposing is good, but finding out is better." - Mark Twain



There exists today a modern Need to Search the Scriptures. The biggest problem people have in understanding the scriptures or the words of the Prophets, is one of simply not understanding what the words and terms used in gospel dialog mean, how they are defined. Defining a word or term incorrectly leads to incorrect beliefs which create "stumbling blocks" or impediments to learning that must first be overcome, the incomplete or partially and sometimes totally false beliefs and teachings then corrected before further truth may be obtained, thereby increasing true faith and knowledge.

Alma explains the blessings of proper study of the scriptures and the destructive results of willful ignorance of the word of God.

(Alma 12:9-11.) And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

"The portion of his word" are the scriptures and the words of our modern day prophets.

10. And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11. And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

Brother McConkie explains to us how to avoid or escape entanglements in the "chains of hell."

(Bruce R. McConkie) Since salvation comes to those who both know and do the will of the Lord, the saints are under express command both to search the scriptures and to keep the commandments. (John 5:39; D. & C. 1:37-39; 3 Ne. 23.) They are to " teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom" (D. & C. 88:77), for "It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance" of God, of Christ, and of the gospel laws. (D. & C. 131:6.) (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. Vol. 1 page 59)

To learn the doctrines of salvation men, Elder McConkie continues;

(1)

Must search the scriptures diligently themselves (3 Ne. 23);
(2)

They must hearken to the voice of the prophets and inspired interpreters of the divine word who are sent among them; and
(3) They must themselves so live as to have the spirit and gift of scriptural understanding and interpretation.

"If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus," Paul taught the Romans, "and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. . . . For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! . . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom. 10:9-17.)

However, after personal study and research, and after being taught by an inspired teacher who does have the power of interpretation, the gospel student must get the revelations of the Spirit himself. Only then will the full and clear meaning of the scriptures be unfolded. This principle is the basic rule of scriptural interpretation. "Knowing this first," Peter said, "that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2 Pet. 1:20-21.) It is only when the Holy Ghost reveals anew the same truth originally given in the scripture that its full and perfect meaning is known.

After the baptism of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, the Holy Ghost fell upon them in a miraculous manner. "We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation," the Prophet said. "Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of." (Jos. Smith 2:73-74.) Truly the things of God are known only by the power of the Spirit of God. (1 Cor. 2.)

Brother McConkie continues;

In the world today there is an appalling ignorance of the true teachings of the scriptures. There has never been a time before when so many have known so little about Deity and or has there been a time when the opportunity to learn the basic principles of salvation has been available to so many. But instead, "darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people" (D. & C. 112:23); it is "as with the people, so with the priest" (Isa. 24:2); apostasy is universal, except among the Latter-day Saints.
But even in the true Church there are few sound scriptorians and theologians who have a comprehensive knowledge of revealed truth. So far this dispensation has not been noted for the diffusion of real gospel scholarship among the elders and saints generally. There are few modern experts on the gospel. Few have paid the price of intense study, of determined self-discipline, and of righteous living necessary to gain a broad knowledge of the truths of salvation. Nearly all members of the Church need to study the revealed word far more than they now do. Even a brief daily study period works miracles in adding to one's knowledge of the doctrines of the gospel. (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. Vol. 1 page 59)

Elder Orson Pratt commenting on revelations given 42 years earlier; Speaking about understanding;

Perhaps you may ask me why I dwell on this mysterious subject? I answer, why did the Lord dwell upon it forty-two years ago, if he did not want us, in some measure to understand it? Would he speak at random? Would he give a revelation without expecting that the people would ever try to understand it? If the Lord wished us to understand something, and condescended to reveal something, why should we, after forty-two years of experience, think that we are stepping over our bounds in trying to approximately comprehend what the Lord desired us to understand, in some measure, forty-two years ago? It is an old sectarian whim and notion, to suppose that we must not try to understand revelation. You know that when they come to something in the divine records which they do not understand, they will say—"Oh, the Lord never intended us to understand that, that is a mystery, we must not search into these things, they are mysteries." Just as though the Lord would reveal something that he never intended or wished the human family to understand. Saying nothing about the Deity, it would be an act of foolishness on the part of a man to attempt a revelation of something that he never intended his fellow-men to understand. The Lord is more consistent then man; and if he reveals anything, he surely intends that thing to be for the profit and edification of the pure in heart.
(Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. 17: 326.)

So there it is, if the Lord or his Prophets have spoken on a truth, if their words are recorded, then we as members are free to search, study and understand everything they have spoken on!

We need to consider the following statement of Christ,

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Truth and light are synonyms of intelligence. The term salvation has been partially defined for us by Joseph Smith as " freedom from the power of our enemies," The Savior taught the Prophet and the Prophet taught us when Joseph said:

" No man can be saved in ignorance ." Man's salvation in this portion of life, mortality, then seems to be predicated on his degree of intelligence (even as it has been in the past, considering time spent in the pre-existence). This seems natural to the serious gospel student when we remember that our "knowledge" or lack of, is the only portion of mortality that passes with us into the next stage of existence, that place we commonly call "the spirit world" which actually, is right here with us. However, in that next stage of existence worldly knowledge is not included as knowledge of any "great worth" . For example, I have no idea what a lawyer or even a doctor might accomplish in the spirit world, if being a lawyer or doctor is the limit of an individuals knowledge. When you consider that as mortals we spend less then two hours of the Lords time here in mortality, perhaps, we just might make an attempt to understand the scriptures, and understand the Temple, which understanding is of "great worth" in the next stage of our life or existence.
Harold B. Lee

stated: "Our existence is eternal . He continues; We use words rather loosely when we speak of the "life before this, and this life, and the next life," as though we were a cat of nine lives, when as a matter of fact we only have one life. This life we speak of did not begin with mortal birth. This life does not end with mortal death. There is something that is not created or made. The scriptures called it "intelligence," which at a certain stage in the pre-existence was organized into a "spirit." After that spirit had grown to a certain stature it then was given the opportunity by an all-wise Father to come into another stage for its development. It was added upon, and after having lived its span and having attained to its purpose in mortality, another change took place. We go, not into another life, in fact, but into another stage of the same life . There is something which was not created or made, and something which does not die, and that something shall live on forever."
(Harold B. Lee, The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, page 74)

Joseph Smith

"Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection . And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come." (Doctrine & Covenants, 130:18-19)
Please notice above that the prophet is talking about the resurrection, not the spirit world. And notice also that the word "world" above, is singular not plural, it refers to "The Kingdom of God in heaven," or, this earth, Celestialized. We remember that there are three (3) degrees of glory (intelligence) in the Celestial Kingdom

( The "glory" of God is intelligence, D & C 93:36 )
The Apostle Paul

counseled the wavering Timothy: (2 Timothy 3:14-17.)
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

"Wise unto salvation"

Just what does that word salvation mean? How are the scriptures "able" to make Timothy and the rest of us "wise unto salvation?" Above we read a partial definition of salvation, lets read it again, and finish the definition as stated by the prophet Joseph. Then perhaps we will see how each of us may become "wise unto salvation." And then understand, or be able to "work" out our own salvation, by increasing our knowledge of the scriptures. (Philippians 2:12)"

The prophet Joseph Smith taught: "Salvation is for a man to be saved from all his enemies; for until a man can triumph over death, he is not saved. A knowledge of the priesthood alone will do this." ( Teachings , p. 305; see also pp. 297, 301.)

Joseph Smith

also taught: "Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else; and no being can possess it but himself or one like him " ( Lectures on Faith 7:9)
.

This is important to understand, lets repeat it;

"and no being can possess it (Salvation) but himself (Christ) or one like him!"

The prophet again

: " Salvation is the ultimate fruit of faith, for salvation consists of being- with and like Jesus Christ, who is the prototype of a saved being . Those who wish to be saved must thereby seek to become as Christ is . "When men begin to live by faith they begin to draw near to God; and when faith is perfected they are like him; and because he is saved they are saved also." (Lectures on Faith 7:8; see also 6:1 1; 7:9.) In this light the plan of salvation becomes "a system of faith—it begins with faith, and continues by faith; and every blessing which is obtained in relation to it is the effect of faith, whether it pertains to this life or that (stage of life) which is to come." (Lectures on Faith 7:17.)
There can be no faith without knowledge, you cannot have faith in God unless you first have knowledge of God. Then as you gain knowledge your faith increases until you have perfect knowledge! Lets use this key of "knowledge" to understand our salvation.

What does the Lord say about salvation?

(Doctrine and Covenants 6:13.)

If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God ; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.
Now notice what the Lord "who cannot lie" says about eternal life:

(Doctrine and Covenants 14:7.) And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God .

The Lord in his plainness seems to be stating that the terms "salvation (save and saved) and eternal life have the same meaning. Lets see if the brethren, our prophets and apostles can help clarify the matter in our minds;

.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie has written: "We are ofttimes prone to create artificial distinctions, to say that salvation means one thing and exaltation another, to suppose that salvation means to be resurrected, but that exaltation or eternal life is something in addition thereto. It is true that there are some passages of scripture that use salvation in a special and limited sense in order to give an overall perspective ( from the first step to the last step) of the plan of salvation that we would not otherwise have. (2 Nephi 9:1-27; D&C 76:40-49; D&C 132:15-17.) These passages show the difference between general or universal salvation that consists of coming forth from the grave in immortality, and specific or individual salvation that consists of an inheritance in the celestial kingdom (last step of salvation).

.. Alma 11 40" Since it is the prophetic purpose to lead men to full salvation in the highest heaven of the celestial world, when they speak and write about salvation, almost without exception, they mean eternal life or exaltation. They use the terms salvation, exaltation, and eternal life as synonyms , as words that mean exactly the same thing without any difference, distinction, or variance whatever." ( Promised Messiah , p. 129.)
The above statement by Elder McConkie confirms the prior statements of our Lord.

If one takes a large bite (portion) out of the "salvation" apple, does the rest of the fruit remain apple, and, Are you able to consume the remainder? If you obtain a portion of salvation, are you able to partake of the rest? Lets see what the Lord proclaims. Remembering that the " glory" of God is intelligence, and that the Lord cannot lie!

(Doctrine and Covenants 88:25-31.)25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom , for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it (as they become righteous)

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.

28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness .

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness.

Now, notice that the Lord here is speaking about what will happen when this earth becomes a Celestialized Earth with its "glories" as in; "The Three Degrees of Glory in the Celestial Kingdom" (fullness of the earth).

What are the names of those three degrees of glory? If we have been attentive, we should have discovered those names. Once you are in the Celestialized Earth and its kingdoms or glories, even perhaps, if by the skin of you teeth, are you are then able to go to the top of that kingdom? There is also mentioned in the scripture a "degree without glory or little intelligence" more about this later.

Lets read some words by John A. Widtsoe who provides insight to a mortal responsibility that was agreed to in the premortal world which is of great importance. He highlights a contractual agreement we made concerning the eternal welfare of all the sons and daughters of our Eternal Father:

John A Widtsoe

: In our pre-existent state, in the day of the great council, we made a certain agreement with the Almighty. The Lord proposed a plan, conceived by him. We accepted it . Since the plan is intended for all men (mankind), we become parties to the salvation of every person under the plan. We agreed, right then and there, to be not only saviors for ourselves, but measurably saviors for the whole human family . We went into a partnership with the Lord. The working out of the plan became then not merely the Father's work, and Savior's work, but also our work. The least of us, the humblest, is in partnership with the Almighty in achieving the purpose of the eternal plan of salvation (John A. Widtsoe, "The Worth of Souls," Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine, October 1934, p. 189).
Because we now know that salvation, eternal life and exaltation are synonyms and have the same meaning, lets discuss just who will be saved, or receive eternal life and exaltation. First Paul:

(1st Timothy 4:10.) "For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially (first) of those that believe."

Howard W. Hunter

: "I know that God lives, that he is the supreme power of heaven and earth. I bear witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ, the Savior of all mankind. My knowledge of these truths moves me to allegiance to divine sovereignty, also to sustain the law of the land."
(Elder Howard W. Hunter, Conference Report, April 1968, page 66.)

Thomas S. Monson

: "His laws were not inscribed upon stone, but upon human hearts. I speak of the master teacher, even Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of all mankind."
(Elder Thomas S. Monson, Conference Report, April 1970 )

Marion D. Hanks

: "Jesus is his Son, the Savior of all mankind ; there is a plan, there is a Church. They have been restored to the earth, and the foundations of happy living are to be found in the principles and programs and inspiration of that Church."
(Elder Marion D. Hanks, May 4, 1960, BYU Speeches of the Year, 1960 6.)

John H. Groberg

: "O Zion! Dear Zion! home of the free-home of the pure in heart-home of all who have overcome the world through Jesus Christ, the Savior of all mankind . In thy temples we'll bend; all thy rights we'll defend; and our home shall be ever with thee-the healer of the penitent and the purifier of all who (as they repent) will come to His Zion and enter into His rest."
(John H. Groberg, The Fire of Faith, page 160.)

We need not be (more) redundant here, the statement "Savior of all mankind" appears many times throughout the words of the prophets. However Parley P. Pratt as quoted by B. H. Roberts made a very clear statement that concerns even the least of all men

Parley P Pratt

: "Thus perfected, the whole family will possess the material universe—that is, the earth and all the other planets and worlds, as an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled, and that fadeth not away. They will also continue to organize people and redeem and perfect other systems which are now in the womb of chaos, and thus go on increasing their several dominions, till the weakest child of God which now exists upon earth will possess more dominions, more property, more subjects and more power and glory than is possessed (presently) by Jesus Christ or by his Father; while at the same time Jesus Christ and his Father will have their dominions, kingdoms and subjects increased in proportion."—Parley P. Pratt, quoted by B. H. Roberts in The Mormon Doctrine of Deity, page 257.
(B. H. Roberts, Defense of the Faith and the Saints, 2 vol. 2: page 274)

Lets see what the Lord and Savior of all mankind himself says; Speaking in the 76th Section about those in this world,

(Doctrine and Covenants 76:41-44.) 41: That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world , and to bear the sins of the world , and to sanctify the world , and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them (sons of perdition,)

And then speaking specifically of those in the Telestial Kingdom (or glory) our Lord states;

(Doctrine and Covenants 76:81-88.)

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fullness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation .

Also the Lord speaking through his prophet, specifically of the very wicked says this, the following several paragraphs speak of the Lords plan concerning the very wicked and later, even explaining how long the process might take for some;

(Doctrine and Covenants 138:58-59.)

58 The dead who repent (as they repent) will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, (Temple)
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation .

User avatar
Arenera
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2712

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by Arenera »

drtanner wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 12:12 pm
Arenera wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 9:01 am
drtanner wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 8:44 am
Arenera wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 8:38 am

There is a need to ponder. Sometimes answers are given in unlikely verses.

Would it be fair for people to be judged strictly on their experience on earth?

How encompassing is Christ’s Sacrifice?

How much does God love his children?

Nephi had the sealing power. What does Nephi mean by “many of us, if not all”? Certainly most Nephites and all Lamanites didn’t meet the mark...

I prefer to believe Nephi than a restrictive remnant group.
I have also thought about this vs, in contrast to “few there be” that find it / “many are called few are chosen” etc. Is Nephi expressing the wish of his heart or is this a forshadowing of the reality of heaven. One thing is for sure, we there are certainly a lot of gaps to fill and lines to read between what is written about the spirit world.
This is far more than a wish. Nephi has the sealing power. Nephi saw the end result of his people. Nephi has seen the end result of the gentiles, and the Covenenat people.

Even with our limited understanding, we know that God has to be perfectly fair. If only a few people make it, you would have to say that this earth was wasted. You can look around and see that some situations are not close to being fair or equal.

How do do you feel about your children? I suspect you love them all. I suspect you will do anything to keep them, even is some go astray.

The Prodigal Son is about someone who went astray and finally came to their senses. That is another example that is hidden unless you ponder.

How complete was Christ’s Sacrifice? Infinite. Ponder that.
Yes, this is a topic that I have pondered and studied in the Scriptures and words of living prophets for over 10 years and the verdict is still out for me on the details. There is good evidence for both sides and opinions on both sides all the way up to the twelve and first presidencies of the past. One scripture that has made me ponder quite a bit is D&C 19:
4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

21 And I command you that you preach naught but repentance, and show not these things unto the world until it is wisdom in me.

22 For they cannot bear meat now, but milk they must receive; wherefore, they must not know these things, lest they perish.

An old forum friend Bob Henstra (who has passed on) and I started talking about this several years ago. He has probably done more research on the topic then anyone I know. In 2006 he sent me a presentation on salvation that he had studied most of his life. Ironically we lost touch for several years and I didn't discover he was on this forum until fairly recently. This is him memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1167

A few good discussions where he chimes in on the subject:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5645
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32409
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=14358

This is long but I will include, and is what he sent me back in 2006.
Just what is Salvation? Just who is saved?

Supposing is good, but finding out is better." - Mark Twain



There exists today a modern Need to Search the Scriptures. The biggest problem people have in understanding the scriptures or the words of the Prophets, is one of simply not understanding what the words and terms used in gospel dialog mean, how they are defined. Defining a word or term incorrectly leads to incorrect beliefs which create "stumbling blocks" or impediments to learning that must first be overcome, the incomplete or partially and sometimes totally false beliefs and teachings then corrected before further truth may be obtained, thereby increasing true faith and knowledge.

Alma explains the blessings of proper study of the scriptures and the destructive results of willful ignorance of the word of God.

(Alma 12:9-11.) And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

"The portion of his word" are the scriptures and the words of our modern day prophets.

10. And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11. And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

Brother McConkie explains to us how to avoid or escape entanglements in the "chains of hell."

(Bruce R. McConkie) Since salvation comes to those who both know and do the will of the Lord, the saints are under express command both to search the scriptures and to keep the commandments. (John 5:39; D. & C. 1:37-39; 3 Ne. 23.) They are to " teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom" (D. & C. 88:77), for "It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance" of God, of Christ, and of the gospel laws. (D. & C. 131:6.) (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. Vol. 1 page 59)

To learn the doctrines of salvation men, Elder McConkie continues;

(1)

Must search the scriptures diligently themselves (3 Ne. 23);
(2)

They must hearken to the voice of the prophets and inspired interpreters of the divine word who are sent among them; and
(3) They must themselves so live as to have the spirit and gift of scriptural understanding and interpretation.

"If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus," Paul taught the Romans, "and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. . . . For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! . . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom. 10:9-17.)

However, after personal study and research, and after being taught by an inspired teacher who does have the power of interpretation, the gospel student must get the revelations of the Spirit himself. Only then will the full and clear meaning of the scriptures be unfolded. This principle is the basic rule of scriptural interpretation. "Knowing this first," Peter said, "that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2 Pet. 1:20-21.) It is only when the Holy Ghost reveals anew the same truth originally given in the scripture that its full and perfect meaning is known.

After the baptism of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, the Holy Ghost fell upon them in a miraculous manner. "We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation," the Prophet said. "Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of." (Jos. Smith 2:73-74.) Truly the things of God are known only by the power of the Spirit of God. (1 Cor. 2.)

Brother McConkie continues;

In the world today there is an appalling ignorance of the true teachings of the scriptures. There has never been a time before when so many have known so little about Deity and or has there been a time when the opportunity to learn the basic principles of salvation has been available to so many. But instead, "darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people" (D. & C. 112:23); it is "as with the people, so with the priest" (Isa. 24:2); apostasy is universal, except among the Latter-day Saints.
But even in the true Church there are few sound scriptorians and theologians who have a comprehensive knowledge of revealed truth. So far this dispensation has not been noted for the diffusion of real gospel scholarship among the elders and saints generally. There are few modern experts on the gospel. Few have paid the price of intense study, of determined self-discipline, and of righteous living necessary to gain a broad knowledge of the truths of salvation. Nearly all members of the Church need to study the revealed word far more than they now do. Even a brief daily study period works miracles in adding to one's knowledge of the doctrines of the gospel. (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. Vol. 1 page 59)

Elder Orson Pratt commenting on revelations given 42 years earlier; Speaking about understanding;

Perhaps you may ask me why I dwell on this mysterious subject? I answer, why did the Lord dwell upon it forty-two years ago, if he did not want us, in some measure to understand it? Would he speak at random? Would he give a revelation without expecting that the people would ever try to understand it? If the Lord wished us to understand something, and condescended to reveal something, why should we, after forty-two years of experience, think that we are stepping over our bounds in trying to approximately comprehend what the Lord desired us to understand, in some measure, forty-two years ago? It is an old sectarian whim and notion, to suppose that we must not try to understand revelation. You know that when they come to something in the divine records which they do not understand, they will say—"Oh, the Lord never intended us to understand that, that is a mystery, we must not search into these things, they are mysteries." Just as though the Lord would reveal something that he never intended or wished the human family to understand. Saying nothing about the Deity, it would be an act of foolishness on the part of a man to attempt a revelation of something that he never intended his fellow-men to understand. The Lord is more consistent then man; and if he reveals anything, he surely intends that thing to be for the profit and edification of the pure in heart.
(Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. 17: 326.)

So there it is, if the Lord or his Prophets have spoken on a truth, if their words are recorded, then we as members are free to search, study and understand everything they have spoken on!

We need to consider the following statement of Christ,

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Truth and light are synonyms of intelligence. The term salvation has been partially defined for us by Joseph Smith as " freedom from the power of our enemies," The Savior taught the Prophet and the Prophet taught us when Joseph said:

" No man can be saved in ignorance ." Man's salvation in this portion of life, mortality, then seems to be predicated on his degree of intelligence (even as it has been in the past, considering time spent in the pre-existence). This seems natural to the serious gospel student when we remember that our "knowledge" or lack of, is the only portion of mortality that passes with us into the next stage of existence, that place we commonly call "the spirit world" which actually, is right here with us. However, in that next stage of existence worldly knowledge is not included as knowledge of any "great worth" . For example, I have no idea what a lawyer or even a doctor might accomplish in the spirit world, if being a lawyer or doctor is the limit of an individuals knowledge. When you consider that as mortals we spend less then two hours of the Lords time here in mortality, perhaps, we just might make an attempt to understand the scriptures, and understand the Temple, which understanding is of "great worth" in the next stage of our life or existence.
Harold B. Lee

stated: "Our existence is eternal . He continues; We use words rather loosely when we speak of the "life before this, and this life, and the next life," as though we were a cat of nine lives, when as a matter of fact we only have one life. This life we speak of did not begin with mortal birth. This life does not end with mortal death. There is something that is not created or made. The scriptures called it "intelligence," which at a certain stage in the pre-existence was organized into a "spirit." After that spirit had grown to a certain stature it then was given the opportunity by an all-wise Father to come into another stage for its development. It was added upon, and after having lived its span and having attained to its purpose in mortality, another change took place. We go, not into another life, in fact, but into another stage of the same life . There is something which was not created or made, and something which does not die, and that something shall live on forever."
(Harold B. Lee, The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, page 74)

Joseph Smith

"Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection . And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come." (Doctrine & Covenants, 130:18-19)
Please notice above that the prophet is talking about the resurrection, not the spirit world. And notice also that the word "world" above, is singular not plural, it refers to "The Kingdom of God in heaven," or, this earth, Celestialized. We remember that there are three (3) degrees of glory (intelligence) in the Celestial Kingdom

( The "glory" of God is intelligence, D & C 93:36 )
The Apostle Paul

counseled the wavering Timothy: (2 Timothy 3:14-17.)
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

"Wise unto salvation"

Just what does that word salvation mean? How are the scriptures "able" to make Timothy and the rest of us "wise unto salvation?" Above we read a partial definition of salvation, lets read it again, and finish the definition as stated by the prophet Joseph. Then perhaps we will see how each of us may become "wise unto salvation." And then understand, or be able to "work" out our own salvation, by increasing our knowledge of the scriptures. (Philippians 2:12)"

The prophet Joseph Smith taught: "Salvation is for a man to be saved from all his enemies; for until a man can triumph over death, he is not saved. A knowledge of the priesthood alone will do this." ( Teachings , p. 305; see also pp. 297, 301.)

Joseph Smith

also taught: "Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else; and no being can possess it but himself or one like him " ( Lectures on Faith 7:9)
.

This is important to understand, lets repeat it;

"and no being can possess it (Salvation) but himself (Christ) or one like him!"

The prophet again

: " Salvation is the ultimate fruit of faith, for salvation consists of being- with and like Jesus Christ, who is the prototype of a saved being . Those who wish to be saved must thereby seek to become as Christ is . "When men begin to live by faith they begin to draw near to God; and when faith is perfected they are like him; and because he is saved they are saved also." (Lectures on Faith 7:8; see also 6:1 1; 7:9.) In this light the plan of salvation becomes "a system of faith—it begins with faith, and continues by faith; and every blessing which is obtained in relation to it is the effect of faith, whether it pertains to this life or that (stage of life) which is to come." (Lectures on Faith 7:17.)
There can be no faith without knowledge, you cannot have faith in God unless you first have knowledge of God. Then as you gain knowledge your faith increases until you have perfect knowledge! Lets use this key of "knowledge" to understand our salvation.

What does the Lord say about salvation?

(Doctrine and Covenants 6:13.)

If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God ; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.
Now notice what the Lord "who cannot lie" says about eternal life:

(Doctrine and Covenants 14:7.) And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God .

The Lord in his plainness seems to be stating that the terms "salvation (save and saved) and eternal life have the same meaning. Lets see if the brethren, our prophets and apostles can help clarify the matter in our minds;

.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie has written: "We are ofttimes prone to create artificial distinctions, to say that salvation means one thing and exaltation another, to suppose that salvation means to be resurrected, but that exaltation or eternal life is something in addition thereto. It is true that there are some passages of scripture that use salvation in a special and limited sense in order to give an overall perspective ( from the first step to the last step) of the plan of salvation that we would not otherwise have. (2 Nephi 9:1-27; D&C 76:40-49; D&C 132:15-17.) These passages show the difference between general or universal salvation that consists of coming forth from the grave in immortality, and specific or individual salvation that consists of an inheritance in the celestial kingdom (last step of salvation).

.. Alma 11 40" Since it is the prophetic purpose to lead men to full salvation in the highest heaven of the celestial world, when they speak and write about salvation, almost without exception, they mean eternal life or exaltation. They use the terms salvation, exaltation, and eternal life as synonyms , as words that mean exactly the same thing without any difference, distinction, or variance whatever." ( Promised Messiah , p. 129.)
The above statement by Elder McConkie confirms the prior statements of our Lord.

If one takes a large bite (portion) out of the "salvation" apple, does the rest of the fruit remain apple, and, Are you able to consume the remainder? If you obtain a portion of salvation, are you able to partake of the rest? Lets see what the Lord proclaims. Remembering that the " glory" of God is intelligence, and that the Lord cannot lie!

(Doctrine and Covenants 88:25-31.)25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom , for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it (as they become righteous)

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.

28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness .

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness.

Now, notice that the Lord here is speaking about what will happen when this earth becomes a Celestialized Earth with its "glories" as in; "The Three Degrees of Glory in the Celestial Kingdom" (fullness of the earth).

What are the names of those three degrees of glory? If we have been attentive, we should have discovered those names. Once you are in the Celestialized Earth and its kingdoms or glories, even perhaps, if by the skin of you teeth, are you are then able to go to the top of that kingdom? There is also mentioned in the scripture a "degree without glory or little intelligence" more about this later.

Lets read some words by John A. Widtsoe who provides insight to a mortal responsibility that was agreed to in the premortal world which is of great importance. He highlights a contractual agreement we made concerning the eternal welfare of all the sons and daughters of our Eternal Father:

John A Widtsoe

: In our pre-existent state, in the day of the great council, we made a certain agreement with the Almighty. The Lord proposed a plan, conceived by him. We accepted it . Since the plan is intended for all men (mankind), we become parties to the salvation of every person under the plan. We agreed, right then and there, to be not only saviors for ourselves, but measurably saviors for the whole human family . We went into a partnership with the Lord. The working out of the plan became then not merely the Father's work, and Savior's work, but also our work. The least of us, the humblest, is in partnership with the Almighty in achieving the purpose of the eternal plan of salvation (John A. Widtsoe, "The Worth of Souls," Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine, October 1934, p. 189).
Because we now know that salvation, eternal life and exaltation are synonyms and have the same meaning, lets discuss just who will be saved, or receive eternal life and exaltation. First Paul:

(1st Timothy 4:10.) "For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially (first) of those that believe."

Howard W. Hunter

: "I know that God lives, that he is the supreme power of heaven and earth. I bear witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ, the Savior of all mankind. My knowledge of these truths moves me to allegiance to divine sovereignty, also to sustain the law of the land."
(Elder Howard W. Hunter, Conference Report, April 1968, page 66.)

Thomas S. Monson

: "His laws were not inscribed upon stone, but upon human hearts. I speak of the master teacher, even Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of all mankind."
(Elder Thomas S. Monson, Conference Report, April 1970 )

Marion D. Hanks

: "Jesus is his Son, the Savior of all mankind ; there is a plan, there is a Church. They have been restored to the earth, and the foundations of happy living are to be found in the principles and programs and inspiration of that Church."
(Elder Marion D. Hanks, May 4, 1960, BYU Speeches of the Year, 1960 6.)

John H. Groberg

: "O Zion! Dear Zion! home of the free-home of the pure in heart-home of all who have overcome the world through Jesus Christ, the Savior of all mankind . In thy temples we'll bend; all thy rights we'll defend; and our home shall be ever with thee-the healer of the penitent and the purifier of all who (as they repent) will come to His Zion and enter into His rest."
(John H. Groberg, The Fire of Faith, page 160.)

We need not be (more) redundant here, the statement "Savior of all mankind" appears many times throughout the words of the prophets. However Parley P. Pratt as quoted by B. H. Roberts made a very clear statement that concerns even the least of all men

Parley P Pratt

: "Thus perfected, the whole family will possess the material universe—that is, the earth and all the other planets and worlds, as an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled, and that fadeth not away. They will also continue to organize people and redeem and perfect other systems which are now in the womb of chaos, and thus go on increasing their several dominions, till the weakest child of God which now exists upon earth will possess more dominions, more property, more subjects and more power and glory than is possessed (presently) by Jesus Christ or by his Father; while at the same time Jesus Christ and his Father will have their dominions, kingdoms and subjects increased in proportion."—Parley P. Pratt, quoted by B. H. Roberts in The Mormon Doctrine of Deity, page 257.
(B. H. Roberts, Defense of the Faith and the Saints, 2 vol. 2: page 274)

Lets see what the Lord and Savior of all mankind himself says; Speaking in the 76th Section about those in this world,

(Doctrine and Covenants 76:41-44.) 41: That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world , and to bear the sins of the world , and to sanctify the world , and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them (sons of perdition,)

And then speaking specifically of those in the Telestial Kingdom (or glory) our Lord states;

(Doctrine and Covenants 76:81-88.)

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fullness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation .

Also the Lord speaking through his prophet, specifically of the very wicked says this, the following several paragraphs speak of the Lords plan concerning the very wicked and later, even explaining how long the process might take for some;

(Doctrine and Covenants 138:58-59.)

58 The dead who repent (as they repent) will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, (Temple)
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation .
What is the population of LDS members to the world population. Figure it out, report the percentage, and what you think it means.

D&C 19 is also good. Does it apply to those in the Spirit World/Prision? I think it does, and it is one reason why we do temple work.

drtanner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1850

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by drtanner »

Arenera wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 12:35 pm
drtanner wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 12:12 pm
Arenera wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 9:01 am
drtanner wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 8:44 am

I have also thought about this vs, in contrast to “few there be” that find it / “many are called few are chosen” etc. Is Nephi expressing the wish of his heart or is this a forshadowing of the reality of heaven. One thing is for sure, we there are certainly a lot of gaps to fill and lines to read between what is written about the spirit world.
This is far more than a wish. Nephi has the sealing power. Nephi saw the end result of his people. Nephi has seen the end result of the gentiles, and the Covenenat people.

Even with our limited understanding, we know that God has to be perfectly fair. If only a few people make it, you would have to say that this earth was wasted. You can look around and see that some situations are not close to being fair or equal.

How do do you feel about your children? I suspect you love them all. I suspect you will do anything to keep them, even is some go astray.

The Prodigal Son is about someone who went astray and finally came to their senses. That is another example that is hidden unless you ponder.

How complete was Christ’s Sacrifice? Infinite. Ponder that.
Yes, this is a topic that I have pondered and studied in the Scriptures and words of living prophets for over 10 years and the verdict is still out for me on the details. There is good evidence for both sides and opinions on both sides all the way up to the twelve and first presidencies of the past. One scripture that has made me ponder quite a bit is D&C 19:
4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

21 And I command you that you preach naught but repentance, and show not these things unto the world until it is wisdom in me.

22 For they cannot bear meat now, but milk they must receive; wherefore, they must not know these things, lest they perish.

An old forum friend Bob Henstra (who has passed on) and I started talking about this several years ago. He has probably done more research on the topic then anyone I know. In 2006 he sent me a presentation on salvation that he had studied most of his life. Ironically we lost touch for several years and I didn't discover he was on this forum until fairly recently. This is him memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1167

A few good discussions where he chimes in on the subject:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5645
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32409
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=14358

This is long but I will include, and is what he sent me back in 2006.
Just what is Salvation? Just who is saved?

Supposing is good, but finding out is better." - Mark Twain



There exists today a modern Need to Search the Scriptures. The biggest problem people have in understanding the scriptures or the words of the Prophets, is one of simply not understanding what the words and terms used in gospel dialog mean, how they are defined. Defining a word or term incorrectly leads to incorrect beliefs which create "stumbling blocks" or impediments to learning that must first be overcome, the incomplete or partially and sometimes totally false beliefs and teachings then corrected before further truth may be obtained, thereby increasing true faith and knowledge.

Alma explains the blessings of proper study of the scriptures and the destructive results of willful ignorance of the word of God.

(Alma 12:9-11.) And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

"The portion of his word" are the scriptures and the words of our modern day prophets.

10. And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11. And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

Brother McConkie explains to us how to avoid or escape entanglements in the "chains of hell."

(Bruce R. McConkie) Since salvation comes to those who both know and do the will of the Lord, the saints are under express command both to search the scriptures and to keep the commandments. (John 5:39; D. & C. 1:37-39; 3 Ne. 23.) They are to " teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom" (D. & C. 88:77), for "It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance" of God, of Christ, and of the gospel laws. (D. & C. 131:6.) (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. Vol. 1 page 59)

To learn the doctrines of salvation men, Elder McConkie continues;

(1)

Must search the scriptures diligently themselves (3 Ne. 23);
(2)

They must hearken to the voice of the prophets and inspired interpreters of the divine word who are sent among them; and
(3) They must themselves so live as to have the spirit and gift of scriptural understanding and interpretation.

"If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus," Paul taught the Romans, "and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. . . . For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! . . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom. 10:9-17.)

However, after personal study and research, and after being taught by an inspired teacher who does have the power of interpretation, the gospel student must get the revelations of the Spirit himself. Only then will the full and clear meaning of the scriptures be unfolded. This principle is the basic rule of scriptural interpretation. "Knowing this first," Peter said, "that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2 Pet. 1:20-21.) It is only when the Holy Ghost reveals anew the same truth originally given in the scripture that its full and perfect meaning is known.

After the baptism of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, the Holy Ghost fell upon them in a miraculous manner. "We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation," the Prophet said. "Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of." (Jos. Smith 2:73-74.) Truly the things of God are known only by the power of the Spirit of God. (1 Cor. 2.)

Brother McConkie continues;

In the world today there is an appalling ignorance of the true teachings of the scriptures. There has never been a time before when so many have known so little about Deity and or has there been a time when the opportunity to learn the basic principles of salvation has been available to so many. But instead, "darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people" (D. & C. 112:23); it is "as with the people, so with the priest" (Isa. 24:2); apostasy is universal, except among the Latter-day Saints.
But even in the true Church there are few sound scriptorians and theologians who have a comprehensive knowledge of revealed truth. So far this dispensation has not been noted for the diffusion of real gospel scholarship among the elders and saints generally. There are few modern experts on the gospel. Few have paid the price of intense study, of determined self-discipline, and of righteous living necessary to gain a broad knowledge of the truths of salvation. Nearly all members of the Church need to study the revealed word far more than they now do. Even a brief daily study period works miracles in adding to one's knowledge of the doctrines of the gospel. (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. Vol. 1 page 59)

Elder Orson Pratt commenting on revelations given 42 years earlier; Speaking about understanding;

Perhaps you may ask me why I dwell on this mysterious subject? I answer, why did the Lord dwell upon it forty-two years ago, if he did not want us, in some measure to understand it? Would he speak at random? Would he give a revelation without expecting that the people would ever try to understand it? If the Lord wished us to understand something, and condescended to reveal something, why should we, after forty-two years of experience, think that we are stepping over our bounds in trying to approximately comprehend what the Lord desired us to understand, in some measure, forty-two years ago? It is an old sectarian whim and notion, to suppose that we must not try to understand revelation. You know that when they come to something in the divine records which they do not understand, they will say—"Oh, the Lord never intended us to understand that, that is a mystery, we must not search into these things, they are mysteries." Just as though the Lord would reveal something that he never intended or wished the human family to understand. Saying nothing about the Deity, it would be an act of foolishness on the part of a man to attempt a revelation of something that he never intended his fellow-men to understand. The Lord is more consistent then man; and if he reveals anything, he surely intends that thing to be for the profit and edification of the pure in heart.
(Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. 17: 326.)

So there it is, if the Lord or his Prophets have spoken on a truth, if their words are recorded, then we as members are free to search, study and understand everything they have spoken on!

We need to consider the following statement of Christ,

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Truth and light are synonyms of intelligence. The term salvation has been partially defined for us by Joseph Smith as " freedom from the power of our enemies," The Savior taught the Prophet and the Prophet taught us when Joseph said:

" No man can be saved in ignorance ." Man's salvation in this portion of life, mortality, then seems to be predicated on his degree of intelligence (even as it has been in the past, considering time spent in the pre-existence). This seems natural to the serious gospel student when we remember that our "knowledge" or lack of, is the only portion of mortality that passes with us into the next stage of existence, that place we commonly call "the spirit world" which actually, is right here with us. However, in that next stage of existence worldly knowledge is not included as knowledge of any "great worth" . For example, I have no idea what a lawyer or even a doctor might accomplish in the spirit world, if being a lawyer or doctor is the limit of an individuals knowledge. When you consider that as mortals we spend less then two hours of the Lords time here in mortality, perhaps, we just might make an attempt to understand the scriptures, and understand the Temple, which understanding is of "great worth" in the next stage of our life or existence.
Harold B. Lee

stated: "Our existence is eternal . He continues; We use words rather loosely when we speak of the "life before this, and this life, and the next life," as though we were a cat of nine lives, when as a matter of fact we only have one life. This life we speak of did not begin with mortal birth. This life does not end with mortal death. There is something that is not created or made. The scriptures called it "intelligence," which at a certain stage in the pre-existence was organized into a "spirit." After that spirit had grown to a certain stature it then was given the opportunity by an all-wise Father to come into another stage for its development. It was added upon, and after having lived its span and having attained to its purpose in mortality, another change took place. We go, not into another life, in fact, but into another stage of the same life . There is something which was not created or made, and something which does not die, and that something shall live on forever."
(Harold B. Lee, The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, page 74)

Joseph Smith

"Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection . And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come." (Doctrine & Covenants, 130:18-19)
Please notice above that the prophet is talking about the resurrection, not the spirit world. And notice also that the word "world" above, is singular not plural, it refers to "The Kingdom of God in heaven," or, this earth, Celestialized. We remember that there are three (3) degrees of glory (intelligence) in the Celestial Kingdom

( The "glory" of God is intelligence, D & C 93:36 )
The Apostle Paul

counseled the wavering Timothy: (2 Timothy 3:14-17.)
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

"Wise unto salvation"

Just what does that word salvation mean? How are the scriptures "able" to make Timothy and the rest of us "wise unto salvation?" Above we read a partial definition of salvation, lets read it again, and finish the definition as stated by the prophet Joseph. Then perhaps we will see how each of us may become "wise unto salvation." And then understand, or be able to "work" out our own salvation, by increasing our knowledge of the scriptures. (Philippians 2:12)"

The prophet Joseph Smith taught: "Salvation is for a man to be saved from all his enemies; for until a man can triumph over death, he is not saved. A knowledge of the priesthood alone will do this." ( Teachings , p. 305; see also pp. 297, 301.)

Joseph Smith

also taught: "Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else; and no being can possess it but himself or one like him " ( Lectures on Faith 7:9)
.

This is important to understand, lets repeat it;

"and no being can possess it (Salvation) but himself (Christ) or one like him!"

The prophet again

: " Salvation is the ultimate fruit of faith, for salvation consists of being- with and like Jesus Christ, who is the prototype of a saved being . Those who wish to be saved must thereby seek to become as Christ is . "When men begin to live by faith they begin to draw near to God; and when faith is perfected they are like him; and because he is saved they are saved also." (Lectures on Faith 7:8; see also 6:1 1; 7:9.) In this light the plan of salvation becomes "a system of faith—it begins with faith, and continues by faith; and every blessing which is obtained in relation to it is the effect of faith, whether it pertains to this life or that (stage of life) which is to come." (Lectures on Faith 7:17.)
There can be no faith without knowledge, you cannot have faith in God unless you first have knowledge of God. Then as you gain knowledge your faith increases until you have perfect knowledge! Lets use this key of "knowledge" to understand our salvation.

What does the Lord say about salvation?

(Doctrine and Covenants 6:13.)

If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God ; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.
Now notice what the Lord "who cannot lie" says about eternal life:

(Doctrine and Covenants 14:7.) And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God .

The Lord in his plainness seems to be stating that the terms "salvation (save and saved) and eternal life have the same meaning. Lets see if the brethren, our prophets and apostles can help clarify the matter in our minds;

.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie has written: "We are ofttimes prone to create artificial distinctions, to say that salvation means one thing and exaltation another, to suppose that salvation means to be resurrected, but that exaltation or eternal life is something in addition thereto. It is true that there are some passages of scripture that use salvation in a special and limited sense in order to give an overall perspective ( from the first step to the last step) of the plan of salvation that we would not otherwise have. (2 Nephi 9:1-27; D&C 76:40-49; D&C 132:15-17.) These passages show the difference between general or universal salvation that consists of coming forth from the grave in immortality, and specific or individual salvation that consists of an inheritance in the celestial kingdom (last step of salvation).

.. Alma 11 40" Since it is the prophetic purpose to lead men to full salvation in the highest heaven of the celestial world, when they speak and write about salvation, almost without exception, they mean eternal life or exaltation. They use the terms salvation, exaltation, and eternal life as synonyms , as words that mean exactly the same thing without any difference, distinction, or variance whatever." ( Promised Messiah , p. 129.)
The above statement by Elder McConkie confirms the prior statements of our Lord.

If one takes a large bite (portion) out of the "salvation" apple, does the rest of the fruit remain apple, and, Are you able to consume the remainder? If you obtain a portion of salvation, are you able to partake of the rest? Lets see what the Lord proclaims. Remembering that the " glory" of God is intelligence, and that the Lord cannot lie!

(Doctrine and Covenants 88:25-31.)25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom , for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it (as they become righteous)

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.

28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness .

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness.

Now, notice that the Lord here is speaking about what will happen when this earth becomes a Celestialized Earth with its "glories" as in; "The Three Degrees of Glory in the Celestial Kingdom" (fullness of the earth).

What are the names of those three degrees of glory? If we have been attentive, we should have discovered those names. Once you are in the Celestialized Earth and its kingdoms or glories, even perhaps, if by the skin of you teeth, are you are then able to go to the top of that kingdom? There is also mentioned in the scripture a "degree without glory or little intelligence" more about this later.

Lets read some words by John A. Widtsoe who provides insight to a mortal responsibility that was agreed to in the premortal world which is of great importance. He highlights a contractual agreement we made concerning the eternal welfare of all the sons and daughters of our Eternal Father:

John A Widtsoe

: In our pre-existent state, in the day of the great council, we made a certain agreement with the Almighty. The Lord proposed a plan, conceived by him. We accepted it . Since the plan is intended for all men (mankind), we become parties to the salvation of every person under the plan. We agreed, right then and there, to be not only saviors for ourselves, but measurably saviors for the whole human family . We went into a partnership with the Lord. The working out of the plan became then not merely the Father's work, and Savior's work, but also our work. The least of us, the humblest, is in partnership with the Almighty in achieving the purpose of the eternal plan of salvation (John A. Widtsoe, "The Worth of Souls," Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine, October 1934, p. 189).
Because we now know that salvation, eternal life and exaltation are synonyms and have the same meaning, lets discuss just who will be saved, or receive eternal life and exaltation. First Paul:

(1st Timothy 4:10.) "For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially (first) of those that believe."

Howard W. Hunter

: "I know that God lives, that he is the supreme power of heaven and earth. I bear witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ, the Savior of all mankind. My knowledge of these truths moves me to allegiance to divine sovereignty, also to sustain the law of the land."
(Elder Howard W. Hunter, Conference Report, April 1968, page 66.)

Thomas S. Monson

: "His laws were not inscribed upon stone, but upon human hearts. I speak of the master teacher, even Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of all mankind."
(Elder Thomas S. Monson, Conference Report, April 1970 )

Marion D. Hanks

: "Jesus is his Son, the Savior of all mankind ; there is a plan, there is a Church. They have been restored to the earth, and the foundations of happy living are to be found in the principles and programs and inspiration of that Church."
(Elder Marion D. Hanks, May 4, 1960, BYU Speeches of the Year, 1960 6.)

John H. Groberg

: "O Zion! Dear Zion! home of the free-home of the pure in heart-home of all who have overcome the world through Jesus Christ, the Savior of all mankind . In thy temples we'll bend; all thy rights we'll defend; and our home shall be ever with thee-the healer of the penitent and the purifier of all who (as they repent) will come to His Zion and enter into His rest."
(John H. Groberg, The Fire of Faith, page 160.)

We need not be (more) redundant here, the statement "Savior of all mankind" appears many times throughout the words of the prophets. However Parley P. Pratt as quoted by B. H. Roberts made a very clear statement that concerns even the least of all men

Parley P Pratt

: "Thus perfected, the whole family will possess the material universe—that is, the earth and all the other planets and worlds, as an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled, and that fadeth not away. They will also continue to organize people and redeem and perfect other systems which are now in the womb of chaos, and thus go on increasing their several dominions, till the weakest child of God which now exists upon earth will possess more dominions, more property, more subjects and more power and glory than is possessed (presently) by Jesus Christ or by his Father; while at the same time Jesus Christ and his Father will have their dominions, kingdoms and subjects increased in proportion."—Parley P. Pratt, quoted by B. H. Roberts in The Mormon Doctrine of Deity, page 257.
(B. H. Roberts, Defense of the Faith and the Saints, 2 vol. 2: page 274)

Lets see what the Lord and Savior of all mankind himself says; Speaking in the 76th Section about those in this world,

(Doctrine and Covenants 76:41-44.) 41: That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world , and to bear the sins of the world , and to sanctify the world , and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them (sons of perdition,)

And then speaking specifically of those in the Telestial Kingdom (or glory) our Lord states;

(Doctrine and Covenants 76:81-88.)

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fullness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation .

Also the Lord speaking through his prophet, specifically of the very wicked says this, the following several paragraphs speak of the Lords plan concerning the very wicked and later, even explaining how long the process might take for some;

(Doctrine and Covenants 138:58-59.)

58 The dead who repent (as they repent) will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, (Temple)
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation .
What is the population of LDS members to the world population. Figure it out, report the percentage, and what you think it means.

D&C 19 is also good. Does it apply to those in the Spirit World/Prision? I think it does, and it is one reason why we do temple work.
What is really baffling is the world population since its existence compared to those who have received ordinances. Obviously additional teaching will need to take place. A few additional questions. What is the night of darkness where there can be no labor performed? Will they all actually "Choose" freely to accept it.

User avatar
Arenera
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2712

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by Arenera »

drtanner wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 12:58 pm
Arenera wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 12:35 pm What is the population of LDS members to the world population. Figure it out, report the percentage, and what you think it means.

D&C 19 is also good. Does it apply to those in the Spirit World/Prision? I think it does, and it is one reason why we do temple work.
What is really baffling is the world population since its existence compared to those who have received ordinances. Obviously additional teaching will need to take place. A few additional questions. What is the night of darkness where there can be no labor performed? Will they all actually "Choose" freely to accept it.
I don’t know on the night of darkness.

Maybe it’s time to follow what President Nelson said in April 2016. :)

User avatar
Arenera
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2712

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by Arenera »

Arenera wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 1:31 pm
drtanner wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 12:58 pm
Arenera wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 12:35 pm What is the population of LDS members to the world population. Figure it out, report the percentage, and what you think it means.

D&C 19 is also good. Does it apply to those in the Spirit World/Prision? I think it does, and it is one reason why we do temple work.
What is really baffling is the world population since its existence compared to those who have received ordinances. Obviously additional teaching will need to take place. A few additional questions. What is the night of darkness where there can be no labor performed? Will they all actually "Choose" freely to accept it.
I don’t know on the night of darkness.

Maybe it’s time to follow what President Nelson said in April 2016. :)
Talk from President Eyring in 2007.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... y?lang=eng

inquirringmind
captain of 100
Posts: 899

Re: Book of Mormon perception of heaven.

Post by inquirringmind »

inho wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 8:31 am
inquirringmind wrote: March 23rd, 2018, 7:16 am The remnant folks say that no one who's heard the restored gospel can get to heaven (the third heaven, where God is) without achieving perfection, and being admitted into God's presence, while here in the flesh.

Can it be proven, from scripture, that that's false doctrine?

Or could they be right?

They don't accept D&C 138 as scripture btw.

So is there any evidence, aside from D&C 138, that they're teaching false doctrine here?
That would mean that no one living without the chance to accept the Gospel can get into the highest glory. Unless there are multiple mortal probations. Do you really mean to refer to D&C 138 or did you mean 137, where Joseph saw his unbaptized dead brother Alvin in the celestial kingdom?

Anyway, what does it even mean to hear the gospel? Does it mean that missionaries taught you the first lesson? That you read the BoM and felt the Spirit? Is it on/off thing? In my opinion conversion is a process, and it is more important that what direction you are heading than how far you get. Just as not all have the chance to accept the gospel, not all who do have as much time to progress.

On top of my head, I cannot come up with any scriptures to refute their arguments. However, scripture bashing is usually pointless anyway. People can interpret the same passages with so many different ways.
I was thinking of D&C 138.

They're teaching (as I understand it) is that no one who has heard "the restored gospel," and doesn't achieve perfection in this life (being invited into God's presence, and seeing Him while here in the flesh), can make it to celestial glory in the afterlife.

That wouldn't include Alvin, would it?

Post Reply