Progression from Telestial Kingdom

[gclayjr]

HappyCamper8,

I'm not quite sure exactly what you are saying here. Are you saying we are not in the telestial kingdom?

That is correct we are on A telestial Earth, but not in THE Telestial Kingdom.

The earth is currently telestial, in that the quality of life and "glory" we are living is telestial. It is NOT THE testial kingdom, which is another place, with a similar level pain and glory.

Those Kingdoms are places we go AFTER Judgment. I did a topic here where I explained that the most important thing to do in this 2nd estate is to chose which direction we are going. It is important to make progress and get to a better place, however this is nowhere nearly as important as choosing who we will follow. The key reason for this 2nd estate is to choose who we will follow. This 2nd estate lasts from this mortal life, through the spirit world until judgment. During our stay here, and during our stay in the spirit world, we can choose, and change our minds as to who we are going to follow. However, after the judgment, your course is set. There is no changing it. You can progress in whichever kingdom,. you are judged to go, but you cannot change your kingdom.

So choose wisely, for this is the time to choose who you will serve.

Regards,

George Clay

[HappyCamper8]

HappyCamper8,

I'm not quite sure exactly what you are saying here. Are you saying we are not in the telestial kingdom?

That is correct we are on A telestial Earth, but not in THE Telestial Kingdom.

The earth is currently telestial, in that the quality of life and "glory" we are living is telestial. It is NOT THE testial kingdom, which is another place, with a similar level pain and glory.

Those Kingdoms are places we go AFTER Judgment. I did a topic here where I explained that the most important thing to do in this 2nd estate is to chose which direction we are going. It is important to make progress and get to a better place, however this is nowhere nearly as important as choosing who we will follow. The key reason for this 2nd estate is to choose who we will follow. This 2nd estate lasts from this mortal life, through the spirit world until judgment. During our stay here, and during our stay in the spirit world, we can choose, and change our minds as to who we are going to follow. However, after the judgment, your course is set. There is no changing it. You can progress in whichever kingdom,. you are judged to go, but you cannot change your kingdom.

So choose wisely, for this is the time to choose who you will serve.

Regards,

George Clay

Thanks for your comments! Holland actually said THE telestial kingdom. Do you think he misspoke?

[gclayjr]

HappyCamper8,

I'm not sure of the exact quote and context you are referring to, however, it is possible that he did not use the term imprecisely



Talk from Russel M. Nelson

It is true that scriptures foretell the final days of the earth’s temporal existence as a telestial sphere. The earth will then be renewed and receive its paradisiacal, or terrestrial, glory. (See A of F 1:10.) Ultimately, the earth will become celestialized. (See Rev. 21:1; D&C 77:1; D&C 88:25–26.) But its last days must be preceded by its latter days!

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... d?lang=eng

Regards,

George Clay

PS: I quickly checked this thread and did not see a reference. If you post the link to Pres Holland's talk I would be glad to read it.

[Spaced_Out]

I'm not quite sure exactly what you are saying here. Are you saying we are not in the telestial kingdom?
Or, that we are in the telestial kingdom, but don't have telestial glory, but that we can progress from kingdom to kingdom, but not glory to glory?

If so, I need to think about that some. I wonder if that is semantics also? Not sure.

Where are you getting this part from?
"Once resurrected that is the end of our state"

Thanks.

ps. Thanks everybody for answering questions. Not sure why but it seemed like before when asking questions, nobody would answer, but just attack me. Was trying to figure out what was going on.

We came down from the preexistence to the earth that is in a fallen state telestial- then in the millennium earth is changed to terrestrial state. The earth is later changed to celestial state, which is the final state the earth will be in.

The big problem is the disconnect between the state the earth is in and our spiritual state or the state of our progression. They are simply not the same thing. Abraham is already and exalted God the city of Enoch was taken up to heaven - All the righteous from Adam down to Jesus have already been resurrected to their final state. Jesus is also an exalted God in a celestial body but will live on earth for 1,000y while the earth is in a terrrestrial state.

It is a 3 lap race for us preexistence and mortal life then resurrection to a body of glory. God's entire purpose is the immortality and eternal life of man. Resurrection is to immortality and that is the final state never a separation of body and spirit again...

The Time to Prepare
Joseph B. Wirthlin
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... e?lang=eng
This is the day of our mortal probation. We might compare our eternal journey to a race of three laps around the track. We have completed the first lap successfully and have made wonderful progress. We have started on the second lap. Can you imagine a world-class runner stopping along the track at this point to pick flowers or chase a rabbit that crossed his path? Yet this is what we are doing when we occupy our time with worldly pursuits that do not move us closer to the third lap toward eternal life, the greatest of all the gifts of God.9

By Elder Paul V. Johnson
Of the Seventy. https://www.lds.org/liahona/2016/05/sun ... country=au
After resurrection, the spirit will never again be separated from the body because the Savior’s Resurrection brought total victory over death. In order to obtain our eternal destiny, we need to have this immortal soul—a spirit and body—united forever. With spirit and immortal body inseparably connected, we can “receive a fulness of joy.”7 In fact, without the Resurrection we could never receive a fulness of joy but would be miserable forever.8 Even faithful, righteous people view the separation of their bodies from their spirits as captivity. We are released from this captivity through the Resurrection, which is redemption from the bands or chains of death.9 There is no salvation without both our spirit and our body.
D&C1:37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.

Alma 11:45
45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

[HappyCamper8]

HappyCamper8,

I'm not sure of the exact quote and context you are referring to, however, it is possible that he did not use the term imprecisely



Talk from Russel M. Nelson

It is true that scriptures foretell the final days of the earth’s temporal existence as a telestial sphere. The earth will then be renewed and receive its paradisiacal, or terrestrial, glory. (See A of F 1:10.) Ultimately, the earth will become celestialized. (See Rev. 21:1; D&C 77:1; D&C 88:25–26.) But its last days must be preceded by its latter days!

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... d?lang=eng

Regards,

George Clay

PS: I quickly checked this thread and did not see a reference. If you post the link to Pres Holland's talk I would be glad to read it.

Sorry, you are correct. I never put the link.
Be Ye Therefore Perfect—Eventually - By Elder Jeffrey R. Holland - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
(Not at my computer so hope that works)

[HappyCamper8]

I'm not quite sure exactly what you are saying here. Are you saying we are not in the telestial kingdom?
Or, that we are in the telestial kingdom, but don't have telestial glory, but that we can progress from kingdom to kingdom, but not glory to glory?

If so, I need to think about that some. I wonder if that is semantics also? Not sure.

Where are you getting this part from?
"Once resurrected that is the end of our state"

Thanks.

ps. Thanks everybody for answering questions. Not sure why but it seemed like before when asking questions, nobody would answer, but just attack me. Was trying to figure out what was going on.

We came down from the preexistence to the earth that is in a fallen state telestial- then in the millennium earth is changed to terrestrial state. The earth is later changed to celestial state, which is the final state the earth will be in.

The big problem is the disconnect between the state the earth is in and our spiritual state or the state of our progression. They are simply not the same thing. Abraham is already and exalted God the city of Enoch was taken up to heaven - All the righteous from Adam down to Jesus have already been resurrected to their final state. Jesus is also an exalted God in a celestial body but will live on earth for 1,000y while the earth is in a terrrestrial state.

It is a 3 lap race for us preexistence and mortal life then resurrection to a body of glory. God's entire purpose is the immortality and eternal life of man. Resurrection is to immortality and that is the final state never a separation of body and spirit again...

The Time to Prepare
Joseph B. Wirthlin
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... e?lang=eng
This is the day of our mortal probation. We might compare our eternal journey to a race of three laps around the track. We have completed the first lap successfully and have made wonderful progress. We have started on the second lap. Can you imagine a world-class runner stopping along the track at this point to pick flowers or chase a rabbit that crossed his path? Yet this is what we are doing when we occupy our time with worldly pursuits that do not move us closer to the third lap toward eternal life, the greatest of all the gifts of God.9

By Elder Paul V. Johnson
Of the Seventy. https://www.lds.org/liahona/2016/05/sun ... country=au
After resurrection, the spirit will never again be separated from the body because the Savior’s Resurrection brought total victory over death. In order to obtain our eternal destiny, we need to have this immortal soul—a spirit and body—united forever. With spirit and immortal body inseparably connected, we can “receive a fulness of joy.”7 In fact, without the Resurrection we could never receive a fulness of joy but would be miserable forever.8 Even faithful, righteous people view the separation of their bodies from their spirits as captivity. We are released from this captivity through the Resurrection, which is redemption from the bands or chains of death.9 There is no salvation without both our spirit and our body.
D&C1:37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.

Alma 11:45
45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

I'm pretty sure that's not correct. (All righteous from Adam to Christ are resurrected). Otherwise, all ancient bones are wicked people. Including children.

[gclayjr]

happyCamper8,

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865 ... ually.html

I read this 2X and didn't find what you were referring to. I live in Pa... 2hrs ahead of you (Assuming you live in Utah) so I will not be reading anything more today. Maybe when you get a chance, you can check either your reference, or my reading and post a clearer reference, and I will be glad to read it.

Regards,

George clay

[HappyCamper8]

happyCamper8,

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865 ... ually.html

I read this 2X and didn't find what you were referring to. I live in Pa... 2hrs ahead of you (Assuming you live in Utah) so I will not be reading anything more today. Maybe when you get a chance, you can check either your reference, or my reading and post a clearer reference, and I will be glad to read it.

Regards,

George clay

What you linked to is an article/commentary on his talk. You would need to go to the talk on lds.org or the gospel library.

It doesn't look like my link worked. I'll have to fix that when I'm at my computer.

[Spaced_Out]

I'm pretty sure that's not correct. (All righteous from Adam to Christ are resurrected). Otherwise, all ancient bones are wicked people. Including children.

There are a few scriptures on the event.

D&C 138:14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.
15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.
16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.
18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;
19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.

Matthew 27:53
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the aholy city, and appeared unto many.

Helaman 14:25
25 And many agraves shall be opened, and shall yield up many of their dead; and many saints shall appear unto many.

3 Nephi 23:9,11
9 Verily I say unto you, I commanded my servant Samuel, the Lamanite, that he should testify unto this people, that at the day that the Father should glorify his name in me that there were many saints who should arise from the dead, and should appear unto many, and should minister unto them. And he said unto them: Was it not so?

[HappyCamper8]

I'm pretty sure that's not correct. (All righteous from Adam to Christ are resurrected). Otherwise, all ancient bones are wicked people. Including children.

There are a few scriptures on the event.

D&C 138:14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.
15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.
16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.
18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;
19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.

Matthew 27:53
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the aholy city, and appeared unto many.

Helaman 14:25
25 And many agraves shall be opened, and shall yield up many of their dead; and many saints shall appear unto many.

3 Nephi 23:9,11
9 Verily I say unto you, I commanded my servant Samuel, the Lamanite, that he should testify unto this people, that at the day that the Father should glorify his name in me that there were many saints who should arise from the dead, and should appear unto many, and should minister unto them. And he said unto them: Was it not so?

Those seem to say many not all though. Which would make more sense otherwise all those skeletons we could judge to be not righteous.

[Spaced_Out]

ps. Thanks everybody for answering questions. Not sure why but it seemed like before when asking questions, nobody would answer, but just attack me. Was trying to figure out what was going on.

There are very many anit-LDS on this site and the war that was started in heaven rages on in full fury on LDSFF. Progressions within kingdoms of glory is one of the key issues that distinguish many anti-LDS. As soon as a person is thought to be dishonest and not really seeking answers but stirring up trouble - it is full on attack and things go nuclear very quickly.

Many anti -LDS are sent here to overrun the forum with rubbish questions like progression between kingdoms of Glory There are so many scriptures and teachings from LDS prophets on the subject - there is no much to discuss...

[Spaced_Out]

Those seem to say many not all though. Which would make more sense otherwise all those skeletons we could judge to be not righteous.

Yeah there are other qualification requirements like baptism - the work for the dead had not started. D&C 138 describe those waiting in the spirit word for their resurrection as righteous - so I use the same language as the scripture.

[Silver]

ps. Thanks everybody for answering questions. Not sure why but it seemed like before when asking questions, nobody would answer, but just attack me. Was trying to figure out what was going on.

There are very many anit-LDS on this site and the war that was started in heaven rages on in full fury on LDSFF. Progressions within kingdoms of glory is one of the key issues that distinguish many anti-LDS. As soon as a person is thought to be dishonest and not really seeking answers but stirring up trouble - it is full on attack and things go nuclear very quickly.

Many anti -LDS are sent here to overrun the forum with rubbish questions like progression between kingdoms of Glory There are so many scriptures and teachings from LDS prophets on the subject - there is no much to discuss...

Sadly, you're right. If Elder Holland had really wanted to say that this earth in its present state is the ultimate destination for all those bound for The Telestial Kingdom, he would have done so with much more explanation. But wait, he wouldn't do that in the first place because it wouldn't be true. However, when he says we live in the telestial kingdom, pointedly with a little "t" and clarifying that we are not in the celestial (with a little "c") kingdom he was merely referring to the fallen nature of both us (and especially the hypocritical heretics among us) and the world upon which we live.

[HappyCamper8]

Those seem to say many not all though. Which would make more sense otherwise all those skeletons we could judge to be not righteous.

Yeah there are other qualification requirements like baptism - the work for the dead had not started. D&C 138 describe those waiting in the spirit word for their resurrection as righteous - so I use the same language as the scripture.

Are you saying all the righteous from the time of Adam to Christ have been resurrected? I've never heard anyone argue that before. I'll have to think and research that one more. Thanks

[HappyCamper8]

ps. Thanks everybody for answering questions. Not sure why but it seemed like before when asking questions, nobody would answer, but just attack me. Was trying to figure out what was going on.

There are very many anit-LDS on this site and the war that was started in heaven rages on in full fury on LDSFF. Progressions within kingdoms of glory is one of the key issues that distinguish many anti-LDS. As soon as a person is thought to be dishonest and not really seeking answers but stirring up trouble - it is full on attack and things go nuclear very quickly.

Many anti -LDS are sent here to overrun the forum with rubbish questions like progression between kingdoms of Glory There are so many scriptures and teachings from LDS prophets on the subject - there is no much to discuss...

Sadly, you're right. If Elder Holland had really wanted to say that this earth in its present state is the ultimate destination for all those bound for The Telestial Kingdom, he would have done so with much more explanation. But wait, he wouldn't do that in the first place because it wouldn't be true. However, when he says we live in the telestial kingdom, pointedly with a little "t" and clarifying that we are not in the celestial (with a little "c") kingdom he was merely referring to the fallen nature of both us (and especially the hypocritical heretics among us) and the world upon which we live.

I will choose to listen to the words of the brethren. When we go against their words or try to wrest what they say we are on the wrong path.
Thanks for your comments.

[HappyCamper8]

ps. Thanks everybody for answering questions. Not sure why but it seemed like before when asking questions, nobody would answer, but just attack me. Was trying to figure out what was going on.

There are very many anit-LDS on this site and the war that was started in heaven rages on in full fury on LDSFF. Progressions within kingdoms of glory is one of the key issues that distinguish many anti-LDS. As soon as a person is thought to be dishonest and not really seeking answers but stirring up trouble - it is full on attack and things go nuclear very quickly.

Many anti -LDS are sent here to overrun the forum with rubbish questions like progression between kingdoms of Glory There are so many scriptures and teachings from LDS prophets on the subject - there is no much to discuss...

Sadly, you're right. If Elder Holland had really wanted to say that this earth in its present state is the ultimate destination for all those bound for The Telestial Kingdom, he would have done so with much more explanation. But wait, he wouldn't do that in the first place because it wouldn't be true. However, when he says we live in the telestial kingdom, pointedly with a little "t" and clarifying that we are not in the celestial (with a little "c") kingdom he was merely referring to the fallen nature of both us (and especially the hypocritical heretics among us) and the world upon which we live.

I'm curious though. Where the celestial kingdom (little c) is.

[Rand]

ps. Thanks everybody for answering questions. Not sure why but it seemed like before when asking questions, nobody would answer, but just attack me. Was trying to figure out what was going on.

There are very many anit-LDS on this site and the war that was started in heaven rages on in full fury on LDSFF. Progressions within kingdoms of glory is one of the key issues that distinguish many anti-LDS. As soon as a person is thought to be dishonest and not really seeking answers but stirring up trouble - it is full on attack and things go nuclear very quickly.

Many anti -LDS are sent here to overrun the forum with rubbish questions like progression between kingdoms of Glory There are so many scriptures and teachings from LDS prophets on the subject - there is no much to discuss...

Sadly, you're right. If Elder Holland had really wanted to say that this earth in its present state is the ultimate destination for all those bound for The Telestial Kingdom, he would have done so with much more explanation. But wait, he wouldn't do that in the first place because it wouldn't be true. However, when he says we live in the telestial kingdom, pointedly with a little "t" and clarifying that we are not in the celestial (with a little "c") kingdom he was merely referring to the fallen nature of both us (and especially the hypocritical heretics among us) and the world upon which we live.

I'm curious though. Where the celestial kingdom (little c) is.

Surrounding all of those living that level of the law...

[HappyCamper8]

There are very many anit-LDS on this site and the war that was started in heaven rages on in full fury on LDSFF. Progressions within kingdoms of glory is one of the key issues that distinguish many anti-LDS. As soon as a person is thought to be dishonest and not really seeking answers but stirring up trouble - it is full on attack and things go nuclear very quickly.

Many anti -LDS are sent here to overrun the forum with rubbish questions like progression between kingdoms of Glory There are so many scriptures and teachings from LDS prophets on the subject - there is no much to discuss...

Sadly, you're right. If Elder Holland had really wanted to say that this earth in its present state is the ultimate destination for all those bound for The Telestial Kingdom, he would have done so with much more explanation. But wait, he wouldn't do that in the first place because it wouldn't be true. However, when he says we live in the telestial kingdom, pointedly with a little "t" and clarifying that we are not in the celestial (with a little "c") kingdom he was merely referring to the fallen nature of both us (and especially the hypocritical heretics among us) and the world upon which we live.

I'm curious though. Where the celestial kingdom (little c) is.

Surrounding all of those living that level of the law...

Thanks! I believe that as well. Goes along with what spaced_out was saying earlier. Not sure why he was doing the little c and little t thing because as far as I can see, the brethren always refer to it with little c and little t.

Could be some exceptions, but the ones I have found are titles to talks or lessons so capitalized. But in the actual talks as far as I can see they always use lower case.

[Silver]

I found the at least part of the source of the trash that HappyCamper8 is posting here. There is much more than I have copy/pasted below. Denver Snuffer was excommunicated and deservedly so. HappyCamper8 and his pals like alaris, if they really are members of the Church, need to repent or ask for excommunication. Now I must go take a shower after reading so much heresy on Snuffer's blog.

http://denversnuffer.com/2010/07/1-nephi-14-6/

1 Nephi 14: 6

“Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.”
Interestingly, rather than shouting out in rejoicing that all who repent will escape punishment, the angel instead pronounces a “wo” upon the gentiles. It is almost as if the future of the gentile conduct inspires nothing but pessimism for the angel. It inspires another warning and condemnation for the gentiles who, having received the Book of Mormon and other sacred writings, are then fully responsible to repent.
Notice that the relationship is between the “Lamb of God” and the gentiles. It is not between the gentiles and “leaders” or “prophets” or “administrators” or “general authorities” or even messengers. It is between the gentiles and “the Lamb of God.”

Why that specific a relationship? Why is it exclusively between the individual and Christ?

Read again the description of the Telestial folk who return “worlds without end” to their condemnation: “And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world; For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.” (D&C 76: 98-101.)

From what you’ve now learned can you see how one might follow even a true messenger but fail to gain “the testimony of Jesus?”

Can you now understand why, although you have followed messengers, you may have not in fact received the “everlasting covenant?”

The Temple is a type and shadow. It is a symbol of the real thing, but it is not the real thing. The “everlasting covenant” is taught there. But to gain it you must receive it through “the testimony of Jesus.” Is this “testimony of Jesus” yours? Of is it rather Jesus testifying to you? If it is He testifying to you, then what must His testimony be?

In light of that does it mean then to “harden your hearts against the Lamb of God?” As you answer that, keep in mind His formula in D&C 93: 1: “Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am.” Here Christ is but reiterating the message of the Book of Mormon.

Then how do you repent? I was asked about idolatry among the Saints. Anything that separates you from the Lamb of God is an idol. Cast it aside and come to Him. Why we have idols between us and the Lord is as different as one person is from another. Almost without exception, it comes as a result of a false tradition handed down. Your false traditions are based on your life’s experiences while another’s false traditions are based on theirs. No matter what they are or how they were acquired, whatever separates Christ from you must be set aside. Come to HIM. Not to me or any other. Only He can save you.

No wonder that after making great promises to the gentiles, if they will but repent, the angel cries out “wo be unto the Gentiles!” They won’t receive: 1) the Gospel, neither 2) the testimony of Jesus, neither 3) the prophets sent to warn them and the message given to them, neither 4) the everlasting covenant offered to them.

Will you?

July 7, 2010


6 thoughts on “1 Nephi 14: 6”
ML1321
July 7, 2010 at 8:45 AM
Joseph said the following about the telestial kingdom:

“And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;
“And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.”

Denver, it appears you are teaching multiple mortal probations (an idea seemingly believed by Eliza R. Snow and Heber C. Kimball, two of the prophet’s closest friends). How are verses 89 & 90 quoted above reconciled with that doctrine? If we are, here and now, experiencing a telestial kingdom and glory how is it that “no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it?” And is this glory we now enjoy the “glory” spoken of which “surpasses all understanding?”

Thank you for all of your insight!
Matt

Denver Snuffer
July 7, 2010 at 10:22 AM
I’d say the glory of the telestial kingdom surpasses your current understanding; and will become known only as God reveals it.

[HappyCamper8]

I found the at least part of the source of the trash that HappyCamper8 is posting here. There is much more than I have copy/pasted below. Denver Snuffer was excommunicated and deservedly so. HappyCamper8 and his pals like alaris, if they really are members of the Church, need to repent or ask for excommunication. Now I must go take a shower after reading so much heresy on Snuffer's blog.

http://denversnuffer.com/2010/07/1-nephi-14-6/

1 Nephi 14: 6

“Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.”
Interestingly, rather than shouting out in rejoicing that all who repent will escape punishment, the angel instead pronounces a “wo” upon the gentiles. It is almost as if the future of the gentile conduct inspires nothing but pessimism for the angel. It inspires another warning and condemnation for the gentiles who, having received the Book of Mormon and other sacred writings, are then fully responsible to repent.
Notice that the relationship is between the “Lamb of God” and the gentiles. It is not between the gentiles and “leaders” or “prophets” or “administrators” or “general authorities” or even messengers. It is between the gentiles and “the Lamb of God.”

Why that specific a relationship? Why is it exclusively between the individual and Christ?

Read again the description of the Telestial folk who return “worlds without end” to their condemnation: “And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world; For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.” (D&C 76: 98-101.)

From what you’ve now learned can you see how one might follow even a true messenger but fail to gain “the testimony of Jesus?”

Can you now understand why, although you have followed messengers, you may have not in fact received the “everlasting covenant?”

The Temple is a type and shadow. It is a symbol of the real thing, but it is not the real thing. The “everlasting covenant” is taught there. But to gain it you must receive it through “the testimony of Jesus.” Is this “testimony of Jesus” yours? Of is it rather Jesus testifying to you? If it is He testifying to you, then what must His testimony be?

In light of that does it mean then to “harden your hearts against the Lamb of God?” As you answer that, keep in mind His formula in D&C 93: 1: “Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am.” Here Christ is but reiterating the message of the Book of Mormon.

Then how do you repent? I was asked about idolatry among the Saints. Anything that separates you from the Lamb of God is an idol. Cast it aside and come to Him. Why we have idols between us and the Lord is as different as one person is from another. Almost without exception, it comes as a result of a false tradition handed down. Your false traditions are based on your life’s experiences while another’s false traditions are based on theirs. No matter what they are or how they were acquired, whatever separates Christ from you must be set aside. Come to HIM. Not to me or any other. Only He can save you.

No wonder that after making great promises to the gentiles, if they will but repent, the angel cries out “wo be unto the Gentiles!” They won’t receive: 1) the Gospel, neither 2) the testimony of Jesus, neither 3) the prophets sent to warn them and the message given to them, neither 4) the everlasting covenant offered to them.

Will you?

July 7, 2010


6 thoughts on “1 Nephi 14: 6”
ML1321
July 7, 2010 at 8:45 AM
Joseph said the following about the telestial kingdom:

“And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;
“And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.”

Denver, it appears you are teaching multiple mortal probations (an idea seemingly believed by Eliza R. Snow and Heber C. Kimball, two of the prophet’s closest friends). How are verses 89 & 90 quoted above reconciled with that doctrine? If we are, here and now, experiencing a telestial kingdom and glory how is it that “no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it?” And is this glory we now enjoy the “glory” spoken of which “surpasses all understanding?”

Thank you for all of your insight!
Matt

Denver Snuffer
July 7, 2010 at 10:22 AM
I’d say the glory of the telestial kingdom surpasses your current understanding; and will become known only as God reveals it.

You are completely obsessed with MMP. Project much? You and the rest of your Julie Rowe followers need to stop wresting the words of the brethren. It's obvious what you are doing. You take a 6 word sentence by one of the brethren and wrest his words, almost each of them. Why?! To set up your MMP ideas in the long run. You and your Rowe followers are doing this to be able to wrest the words of Uchtdorf about 1 mortal adventure.

I choose to follow the words of the brethren. Go back to the other thread you are so obsessed with. Stop polluting the minds of others. Why do you keep posting the words of snuffer? You keep spreading that word which surprises me. You Julie Rowe followers must actually be with snuffer as well.

[Silver]

I found the at least part of the source of the trash that HappyCamper8 is posting here. There is much more than I have copy/pasted below. Denver Snuffer was excommunicated and deservedly so. HappyCamper8 and his pals like alaris, if they really are members of the Church, need to repent or ask for excommunication. Now I must go take a shower after reading so much heresy on Snuffer's blog.

http://denversnuffer.com/2010/07/1-nephi-14-6/

1 Nephi 14: 6

“Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.”
Interestingly, rather than shouting out in rejoicing that all who repent will escape punishment, the angel instead pronounces a “wo” upon the gentiles. It is almost as if the future of the gentile conduct inspires nothing but pessimism for the angel. It inspires another warning and condemnation for the gentiles who, having received the Book of Mormon and other sacred writings, are then fully responsible to repent.
Notice that the relationship is between the “Lamb of God” and the gentiles. It is not between the gentiles and “leaders” or “prophets” or “administrators” or “general authorities” or even messengers. It is between the gentiles and “the Lamb of God.”

Why that specific a relationship? Why is it exclusively between the individual and Christ?

Read again the description of the Telestial folk who return “worlds without end” to their condemnation: “And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world; For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.” (D&C 76: 98-101.)

From what you’ve now learned can you see how one might follow even a true messenger but fail to gain “the testimony of Jesus?”

Can you now understand why, although you have followed messengers, you may have not in fact received the “everlasting covenant?”

The Temple is a type and shadow. It is a symbol of the real thing, but it is not the real thing. The “everlasting covenant” is taught there. But to gain it you must receive it through “the testimony of Jesus.” Is this “testimony of Jesus” yours? Of is it rather Jesus testifying to you? If it is He testifying to you, then what must His testimony be?

In light of that does it mean then to “harden your hearts against the Lamb of God?” As you answer that, keep in mind His formula in D&C 93: 1: “Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am.” Here Christ is but reiterating the message of the Book of Mormon.

Then how do you repent? I was asked about idolatry among the Saints. Anything that separates you from the Lamb of God is an idol. Cast it aside and come to Him. Why we have idols between us and the Lord is as different as one person is from another. Almost without exception, it comes as a result of a false tradition handed down. Your false traditions are based on your life’s experiences while another’s false traditions are based on theirs. No matter what they are or how they were acquired, whatever separates Christ from you must be set aside. Come to HIM. Not to me or any other. Only He can save you.

No wonder that after making great promises to the gentiles, if they will but repent, the angel cries out “wo be unto the Gentiles!” They won’t receive: 1) the Gospel, neither 2) the testimony of Jesus, neither 3) the prophets sent to warn them and the message given to them, neither 4) the everlasting covenant offered to them.

Will you?

July 7, 2010


6 thoughts on “1 Nephi 14: 6”
ML1321
July 7, 2010 at 8:45 AM
Joseph said the following about the telestial kingdom:

“And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;
“And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.”

Denver, it appears you are teaching multiple mortal probations (an idea seemingly believed by Eliza R. Snow and Heber C. Kimball, two of the prophet’s closest friends). How are verses 89 & 90 quoted above reconciled with that doctrine? If we are, here and now, experiencing a telestial kingdom and glory how is it that “no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it?” And is this glory we now enjoy the “glory” spoken of which “surpasses all understanding?”

Thank you for all of your insight!
Matt

Denver Snuffer
July 7, 2010 at 10:22 AM
I’d say the glory of the telestial kingdom surpasses your current understanding; and will become known only as God reveals it.

You are completely obsessed with MMP. Project much? You and the rest of your Julie Rowe followers need to stop wresting the words of the brethren. It's obvious what you are doing. You take a 6 word sentence by one of the brethren and wrest his words, almost each of them. Why?! To set up your MMP ideas in the long run. You and your Rowe followers are doing this to be able to wrest the words of Uchtdorf about 1 mortal adventure.

I choose to follow the words of the brethren. Go back to the other thread you are so obsessed with. Stop polluting the minds of others. Why do you keep posting the words of snuffer? You keep spreading that word which surprises me. You Julie Rowe followers must actually be with snuffer as well.

Your comments only make you look silly. Those who have read the Julie Rowe threads know that I have written against her as well. And just like you, I'll post where I please.

Now that we've established that the excommunicated and you and alaris are MMP supporters, will you take back your lie that you follow the words of the brethren? You can't possibly follow the excommunicated Snuffer and the brethren.

[gclayjr]

happycamper8,

I found the quote

To put this issue in context, may I remind all of us that we live in a fallen world and for now we are a fallen people. We are in the telestial kingdom; that is spelled with a t, not a c. As President Russell M. Nelson has taught, here in mortality perfection is still “pending.”5

I think he was not perfect in his phrasing It would be more correct to say "We are in a telestial kingdom"

There are a couple of direct indicators of this.

1) This was not included in the Deseret News article about this speech, which would have been included had it been a key part of the speech.

2) He referenced Russel M Nelson which coincidentally,so did I, who spoke more clearly about the topic. which makes it clear that this is a Telestial sphere or location not THE telestial kingdom as in the final Kingdom, one may go to after judgment.


I don't know you. There are many on this board who are proponents one heresy or another who dangle out there some obscure quote, from a prophet or GA, without context, in order to "Trap" people into believing that that prophet or GA was preaching or implying this heresy or that one. I hope that is not what you are doing here. If so, I pity you and wonder if you have anything better to do with you time than to surf all the GA talks looking for an errant definite article instead of an indefinite article to support a theory.

If not, then I hope that I was able to clear up your misunderstanding.

Regards,

George Clay

[HappyCamper8]

I found the at least part of the source of the trash that HappyCamper8 is posting here. There is much more than I have copy/pasted below. Denver Snuffer was excommunicated and deservedly so. HappyCamper8 and his pals like alaris, if they really are members of the Church, need to repent or ask for excommunication. Now I must go take a shower after reading so much heresy on Snuffer's blog.

http://denversnuffer.com/2010/07/1-nephi-14-6/

1 Nephi 14: 6

“Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.”
Interestingly, rather than shouting out in rejoicing that all who repent will escape punishment, the angel instead pronounces a “wo” upon the gentiles. It is almost as if the future of the gentile conduct inspires nothing but pessimism for the angel. It inspires another warning and condemnation for the gentiles who, having received the Book of Mormon and other sacred writings, are then fully responsible to repent.
Notice that the relationship is between the “Lamb of God” and the gentiles. It is not between the gentiles and “leaders” or “prophets” or “administrators” or “general authorities” or even messengers. It is between the gentiles and “the Lamb of God.”

Why that specific a relationship? Why is it exclusively between the individual and Christ?

Read again the description of the Telestial folk who return “worlds without end” to their condemnation: “And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world; For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.” (D&C 76: 98-101.)

From what you’ve now learned can you see how one might follow even a true messenger but fail to gain “the testimony of Jesus?”

Can you now understand why, although you have followed messengers, you may have not in fact received the “everlasting covenant?”

The Temple is a type and shadow. It is a symbol of the real thing, but it is not the real thing. The “everlasting covenant” is taught there. But to gain it you must receive it through “the testimony of Jesus.” Is this “testimony of Jesus” yours? Of is it rather Jesus testifying to you? If it is He testifying to you, then what must His testimony be?

In light of that does it mean then to “harden your hearts against the Lamb of God?” As you answer that, keep in mind His formula in D&C 93: 1: “Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am.” Here Christ is but reiterating the message of the Book of Mormon.

Then how do you repent? I was asked about idolatry among the Saints. Anything that separates you from the Lamb of God is an idol. Cast it aside and come to Him. Why we have idols between us and the Lord is as different as one person is from another. Almost without exception, it comes as a result of a false tradition handed down. Your false traditions are based on your life’s experiences while another’s false traditions are based on theirs. No matter what they are or how they were acquired, whatever separates Christ from you must be set aside. Come to HIM. Not to me or any other. Only He can save you.

No wonder that after making great promises to the gentiles, if they will but repent, the angel cries out “wo be unto the Gentiles!” They won’t receive: 1) the Gospel, neither 2) the testimony of Jesus, neither 3) the prophets sent to warn them and the message given to them, neither 4) the everlasting covenant offered to them.

Will you?

July 7, 2010


6 thoughts on “1 Nephi 14: 6”
ML1321
July 7, 2010 at 8:45 AM
Joseph said the following about the telestial kingdom:

“And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;
“And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.”

Denver, it appears you are teaching multiple mortal probations (an idea seemingly believed by Eliza R. Snow and Heber C. Kimball, two of the prophet’s closest friends). How are verses 89 & 90 quoted above reconciled with that doctrine? If we are, here and now, experiencing a telestial kingdom and glory how is it that “no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it?” And is this glory we now enjoy the “glory” spoken of which “surpasses all understanding?”

Thank you for all of your insight!
Matt

Denver Snuffer
July 7, 2010 at 10:22 AM
I’d say the glory of the telestial kingdom surpasses your current understanding; and will become known only as God reveals it.

You are completely obsessed with MMP. Project much? You and the rest of your Julie Rowe followers need to stop wresting the words of the brethren. It's obvious what you are doing. You take a 6 word sentence by one of the brethren and wrest his words, almost each of them. Why?! To set up your MMP ideas in the long run. You and your Rowe followers are doing this to be able to wrest the words of Uchtdorf about 1 mortal adventure.

I choose to follow the words of the brethren. Go back to the other thread you are so obsessed with. Stop polluting the minds of others. Why do you keep posting the words of snuffer? You keep spreading that word which surprises me. You Julie Rowe followers must actually be with snuffer as well.

Your comments only make you look silly. Those who have read the Julie Rowe threads know that I have written against her as well. And just like you, I'll post where I please.

Now that we've established that the excommunicated and you and alaris are MMP supporters, will you take back your lie that you follow the words of the brethren? You can't possibly follow the excommunicated Snuffer and the brethren.

Your comments only make you look silly. I have invited you and any others who would like, to go back and read my comments.
Now that we have established you are obsessed with MMP and Snuffer and continually spread his word and also claiming to rid yourself of your evil spirit by NOT using the atonement but showering, will you take back your lie that you follow the words of the brethren?
Use the atonement to become clean. Why do you study the words of Snuffer? You have admitted yourself you do. You also continually spread his words and try to link all topics to MMP.
Follow the prophet. Don't go astray. I'm assuming you are no longer a member of the LDS faith. If you ever were, I invite you to come back. Leave your obsession with snuffer and MMP. Don't wrest the words of the brethren. This will only lead you further into darkness.

[HappyCamper8]

happycamper8,

I found the quote

To put this issue in context, may I remind all of us that we live in a fallen world and for now we are a fallen people. We are in the telestial kingdom; that is spelled with a t, not a c. As President Russell M. Nelson has taught, here in mortality perfection is still “pending.”5

I think he was not perfect in his phrasing It would be more correct to say "We are in a telestial kingdom"

There are a couple of direct indicators of this.

1) This was not included in the Deseret News article about this speech, which would have been included had it been a key part of the speech.

2) He referenced Russel M Nelson which coincidentally,so did I, who spoke more clearly about the topic. which makes it clear that this is a Telestial sphere or location not THE telestial kingdom as in the final Kingdom, one may go to after judgment.


I don't know you. There are many on this board who are proponents one heresy or another who dangle out there some obscure quote, from a prophet or GA, without context, in order to "Trap" people into believing that that prophet or GA was preaching or implying this heresy or that one. I hope that is not what you are doing here. If so, I pity you and wonder if you have anything better to do with you time than to surf all the GA talks looking for an errant definite article instead of an indefinite article to support a theory.

If not, then I hope that I was able to clear up your misunderstanding.

Regards,

George Clay

Thank you for your clarification. You are saying he didn't mean to say "the" but "a".

I don't think it's a good idea or practice to reference news articles about a general conference talk. They leave parts out and add their own commentary and can help muddy the water.

Please don't accuse me of trying to trap people. It's amazing. A person comes on this site and if they are not part of the 10 or so people who regularly post, it's full on attack mode. I hope this behavior doesn't happen in Priesthood/Relief Society and Sunday School all over the world. I have seen it personally in Priesthood meeting where a certain person was continuously attacked until he stopped asking questions. Not good.

Btw, I'm from Pennsylvania also. (Not currently living there).

[iWriteStuff]

Your comments only make you look silly. I have invited you and any others who would like, to go back and read my comments.
Now that we have established you are obsessed with MMP and Snuffer and continually spread his word and also claiming to rid yourself of your evil spirit by NOT using the atonement but showering, will you take back your lie that you follow the words of the brethren?
Use the atonement to become clean. Why do you study the words of Snuffer? You have admitted yourself you do. You also continually spread his words and try to link all topics to MMP.
Follow the prophet. Don't go astray. I'm assuming you are no longer a member of the LDS faith. If you ever were, I invite you to come back. Leave your obsession with snuffer and MMP. Don't wrest the words of the brethren. This will only lead you further into darkness.

Perhaps you could explain how your statement is different than Snuffer's rather than wresting the words of the brethren and fixating on grammatical nuances. I haven't seen anything yet to imply that Elder Holland believes this is the Telestial Kingdom of post-resurrection fame. Nor have I seen anything to make me believe the false doctrine of post-resurrection progression between kingdoms. Instead, I read this:

Alma 34:31-35
31 Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

I invite you to show me scriptures supporting the notion that after we have procrastinated our repentance, been fully judged, and allotted a lesser kingdom of glory that we can start repenting after this life. My understanding is that the weight of scriptures advocates repentance now, as afterwards is everlastingly too late. This is especially true if we have been given the word of God in its plainness. There are no do-overs.