Some thought where I believe the BoM took place

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2621
Contact:

Some thought where I believe the BoM took place

Post by SJR3t2 »

Some thought were I believe the BoM took place
https://seekingyhwh.com/2017/04/14/morm ... chaeology/

samizdat
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3511

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by samizdat »

When looking at the Book of Mormon and where everything happened, one has to first construct an internal map of everything that happened in the record, without using a paradigmatic view of where one thinks everything happened. Taking note of the distances described in the text, as well as climatological and geological references in the text. This, starting with the major areas of the Book of Mormon and going to the minor areas based off of the major areas.

There are six major areas described in the text.

Land of First Inheritance--Lehi lands here.

Land of Nephi--Nephite occupied until the first King Mosiah, who discovers the Land of Zarahemla. Occupied by the Lamanites afterwards, with exceptions in the time of Zeniff and Noah et al.

Land of Zarahemla--the central place of the Nephites from roughly 200 BC to 300 AD. Burned at the time of Christ's death. Rebuilt afterwards. On the west bank of a river flowing north that was major. Lower in elevation than the Land of Nephi and presumably warmer.

Land of Bountiful--north of Zarahemla. Would argue northeast as the Sidon is not mentioned as crossing Bountiful, never the less, it does empty into the sea. Close to the east sea. Climate warmer than in Zarahemla, implying a still lower elevation. Separated by an area of refuge, presumably hills or mountains, that probably separate the land from the Sidon-fed Zarahemla.

Land of Desolation--north of Zarahemla, and Bountiful. A much drier area. And by the narrow neck of land that separated the land southward from the land northward.

Land of Moron--central land of the Jaredites, north of Desolation, in the land Northward. No details on climate here but obviously more humid than Desolation as it supported a big population, bigger than all the children of Israel (some millions of people). Cumorah described as east of this land.

Climate: LFI Mediterranean climate. LoN Temperate highland. LoZ Subtropical climate. LoB Tropical semihumid to humid. LoD Desert or steppe climate. LoM Unknown probably temperate.

Findings on where this setup is most possible, in the next post.

User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2621
Contact:

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by SJR3t2 »

Alma 22 Deciphered: Book of Mormon Map and Geography
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbNaUWvmfHQ


User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2621
Contact:

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by SJR3t2 »

That is another theory, I for one believe in the Heartland model, and believe Joseph Smith taught it also.

User avatar
AI2.0
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3917

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by AI2.0 »

SJR3t2 wrote: January 23rd, 2018, 8:14 am That is another theory, I for one believe in the Heartland model, and believe Joseph Smith taught it also.

The Heartland model is also a theory and the truth is Joseph Smith did not 'teach' it; there is evidence he was not committed to a set geographic location, except that it happened in the Americas, otherwise this would be a non issue; the church would have a definitive position on this.

Some promoters of heartland model have claimed Joseph 'taught it' because apparently, they want to elevate this theory to a sort of 'settled science' within the church. ;)

User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2621
Contact:

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by SJR3t2 »

Joseph Smith did teach it. There are multiple instances where he did.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10812
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by larsenb »

SJR3t2 wrote: January 23rd, 2018, 10:46 am Joseph Smith did teach it. There are multiple instances where he did.
Not really. Conjecture.

He very clearly said in about 3 issues of the 1842 Times and Seasons that he thought the main area of the Nephites/Lehites could be in Mesoamerica, in the area of southern Mexico, northern Guatemala. John Lund has done an excellent study showing that he wrote the passages in question. I've never seen anyone seriously contest Lund's work.

This has been mentioned in many threads on this forum.

User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2621
Contact:

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by SJR3t2 »

We both have a different opinion about that, and neither one is going to convince the other. If you want you can look into letter 7.

You mean when JS was in hiding, regarding the Times and Seasons.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10812
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by larsenb »

SJR3t2 wrote: January 23rd, 2018, 6:24 pm We both have a different opinion about that, and neither one is going to convince the other. If you want you can look into letter 7.

You mean when JS was in hiding, regarding the Times and Seasons.
It's not a matter of opinion. Of course you're allowed to believe what you want. It's a matter of being open enough to carefully read John's study. He gives you all the data and his methodology, so you can go through the same procedure. That's called 'science'.

He also addresses the allegation that Joseph was "in hiding" during the key times. Nope. Not so. Read the study and refute that if you're able. I haven't seen any evidence yet that indicates Lund has got his facts and scholarship wrong.

User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2621
Contact:

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by SJR3t2 »

Mock all you want. Take care.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10812
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by larsenb »

SJR3t2 wrote: January 23rd, 2018, 8:38 pm Mock all you want. Take care.
You're not being mocked. Go over John Lund's study and see if you can rebut it. That is all.

User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2621
Contact:

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by SJR3t2 »

I grew up with the Mesoamerica model, I know about it. The Torah does not allow for animal substitutes. The animals required for the sacrafices are in heartland not in mesoamerica.

samizdat
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3511

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by samizdat »

And what about South America? IT at least started there.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10812
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by larsenb »

SJR3t2 wrote: January 24th, 2018, 7:46 am I grew up with the Mesoamerica model, I know about it. The Torah does not allow for animal substitutes. The animals required for the sacrafices are in heartland not in mesoamerica.
The problem with that assertion is that we don't know all the animals that might have been living in Mesoamerica and surrounds 1500 years ago. Just a few years ago, mammoth remains were found on Wrangel Island, surviving until at least 3600 years ago (~1600 years BCE), which is ~6-7,000 years later than previously determined.

And of course, the Book of Ether describes 'elephants' living among them, and whether you subscribe to the Heartland or MesoAmerican model, no bones have been found for elephants in either area.

However, Victor von Hagen in his book Sun Kingdoms of Ancient America (I have the book, but may not have the title quite right) described RC dates for alleged elephant bones found in the Valley of Mexico, as I recall, that dated to 2000 BCE or so. His claim was in a long appendix to the book.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10353
Contact:

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by marc »

This is a topic, which has been covered a number of times over the last ten years. In all my studies, I could never conclude where the BoM cities are located. I've never found anything where Joseph declared where any of the cities were or the people dwelt. BUT! He did have some interesting things to say to Emma. I believe Joseph Smith when he wrote a letter to Emma from the shore of the Mississippi River telling her that since he and company had left Ohio (Zion's camp), he had "wandered over the plains of the Nephites, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord and picked up their skulls and bones as proof of their divine authenticity."

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... e-1834&p=2

So many miles of walking through Nephite country! Those mounds were permanent structures, whether burial or otherwise. The Nephites and Lamanites, in my estimation, were spread all over the land, and in my opinion, the eastern half of the US and extending down toward Central Amarica (Mexico) over the centuries (dissenting Lamanites multiplying/replenishing the land). I used to be a Meso American guy, but I'm definitely a Heartland Model guy today.

User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2621
Contact:

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by SJR3t2 »

You must not have been looking in the right place then. I've read statements from JS, I"ve read statements in the D&C.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10353
Contact:

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by marc »

I am familiar with the D&C, but would you like to be more specific?

User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2621
Contact:

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by SJR3t2 »

I don't remember the section off the top of my head, but the mission calls to the Lamanites were in the Heartland area.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10353
Contact:

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by marc »

Because of the Indian Removal Act, all indigenous peoples were relocated west of the Mississippi in 1830. Naturally the elders needed to "trade" with them in order to proselytize, which had been declared a punishable offense by law.

User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2621
Contact:

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by SJR3t2 »

I hear what you saying, but either way it's in the states and not mesoamerica. Even with the gov moves, not all moved.

Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5247

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by Silver »

larsenb wrote: January 23rd, 2018, 10:05 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 23rd, 2018, 8:38 pm Mock all you want. Take care.
You're not being mocked. Go over John Lund's study and see if you can rebut it. That is all.
SJR3t2, I don't care where the BoM took place. Even Nepal for all I care. Further, larsen and I don't get along well, so I'm not taking his side in this argument because, as mentioned above, the geographical setting for the BoM is of little importance to me.

However, it seems to me that larsen is making a reasonable request. The topic at hand seems important to you. After all, you started this thread. As a scholar, or as a researcher, or as an author, or as whatever you fancy yourself to be, isn't it imperative for you to read extensively and form your opinions from the best material available? There is, apparently, some material by one John Lund which contradicts your theory on the the setting of the BoM. Now you may think you've got a rock-solid case for your theory, but on the possibility that Lund has something you're missing, shouldn't you read it?

Read it and refute it. Read it and tell that smarty-pants larsen how Lund got it all wrong. Read it and reconfirm your theory. Just read it.

Ignoring Lund's work seems lazy and irresponsible, if you really care about where the events of the BoM took place. So how much do you care about your theory? Enough to test it against some research by someone else who cares about the same topic? Maybe if you ask nicely ol' larsen will even loan you his copy.

User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2621
Contact:

Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place

Post by SJR3t2 »

I grew up believing in the Mesoamerica model, I don't now. I have mentioned a few reasons in the thread, and many more reasons in the post I shared.

User avatar
inho
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3286
Location: in a galaxy far, far away

Re: Some thought were I believe the BoM took place

Post by inho »

larsenb wrote: January 23rd, 2018, 5:29 pm John Lund has done an excellent study showing that he wrote the passages in question. I've never seen anyone seriously contest Lund's work.
larsenb,
Dr Lund has written at least two books about BoM geography: http://drlund.com/books/. Which one would you suggest one to read first?

I must admit that whenever I see that an author feels the need to put his title (Dr) in the cover of a book, that is a bit of a turn-off for me.

User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2621
Contact:

Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place

Post by SJR3t2 »

This is a good video for the Heartland and some Torah aspects.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7drn_VpVuo

Post Reply