I can't buy into that one. You just don't have large gold, silver, copper and iron deposits outside of the Copper/Iron deposits close to the Great Lakes (Mesabe Iron deposits north of Lake Superior and in Minnesota; and copper deposits in Michigan, etc.).brianj wrote: ↑February 7th, 2018, 10:08 pm Reading Ether 10, I was impressed by a statement in verse 23: "they did cast up mighty heaps of earth to get ore"
The prehistoric mounds scattered throughout the heartland of the Continental US are a mystery to anthropologists. Some believe they are burial mounds, but there are no remains. Others think they served a cultural or religious purpose. Now I can't shake the idea that these mounds are the result of Jaredites and Nephites digging for gold, silver, copper, and iron. I wonder if this is the case even if these areas are not ore rich today.
Some thought where I believe the BoM took place
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larsenb
- Level 34 Illuminated
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Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place
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larsenb
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 10919
- Location: Between here and Standing Rock
Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place
Daniel Petersen has written an article on this National Geographic article in today's Deseret News, Mormon Times: https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900 ... sting.htmldrtanner wrote: ↑February 6th, 2018, 10:42 pm Who knows but I did think this was interesting and could yield to all kinds of valuable information as it is fine tuned.
https://ldsmag.com/how-an-incredible-ne ... of-mormon/
Extract:
Many members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are excited about an exclusive National Geographic article that appeared online at news.nationalgeographic.com on Feb. 1, 2018, by Tom Clynes, titled, “Laser Scans Reveal Maya ‘Megalopolis’ Below Guatemalan Jungle: A vast, interconnected network of ancient cities was home to millions more people than previously thought.”
Their excitement is both understandable and justified.
The article discusses a laser technology known as LiDAR, which stands for light detection and ranging, that has revealed previously undiscovered ancient ruins by digitally removing the tropical forest canopy of northern Guatemala that conceals them. Using this “major breakthrough” in Maya archaeology, researchers have thus far identified artificial features, including more than 60,000 houses, palaces and roads that have been hidden for centuries. “After decades of combing through the forests,” writes Clynes in National Geographic, “no archaeologists had stumbled across these sites.”
Plainly, a great deal remains to be learned about Pre-Columbian America, and several new findings here seem relevant to the Book of Mormon.
For example, according toMosiah 7:4 and 8:8 — not to mention my own personal experience — it’s easy to lose cities in the Mesoamerican jungle and to walk, wholly unaware, past massive structures.
But they exist, though they’re difficult to see: Contrary to previous population estimates of around 5 million, Tulane University archaeologist Francisco Estrada-Belli says that the ancient Guatemalan lowlands may have supported 10-15 million people. “At its peak in the Maya classic period (approximately A.D. 250–900),” summarizes National Geographic, “the civilization covered an area about twice the size of medieval England, but it was far more densely populated.”
Thus, when Mormon’s father brought him southward to the capital district of Zarahemla in roughly A.D. 321-326, the 11-year-old future prophet was wide-eyed with astonishment: “The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea” (see Mormon 1:7).
In the National Geographic article, Clynes describes “highways connecting urban centers and quarries.” “Virtually all the Mayan cities,” he says, “were connected by causeways wide enough to suggest that they were heavily trafficked and used for trade and other forms of regional interaction. These highways were elevated to allow easy passage even during rainy seasons.”
Similarly, 3 Nephi 6:8 records that “there were many highways cast up, and many roads made, which led from city to city, and from land to land, and from place to place.” (Does the verb “cast up” suggest that Nephite highways were “elevated”?)
The National Geographic account speaks of “militarization” and “the ubiquity of defensive walls, ramparts, terraces and fortresses.”
“Warfare wasn’t only happening toward the end of the civilization,” says Ithaca College archaeologist Thomas Garrison. “It was large-scale and systematic, and it endured over many years.”
For its part, the Book of Mormon is notoriously full of warfare. At Alma 49:2-8; 50:1-6; 53:1-5; and62:42-43, for instance, we read of innovative fortifications built during the first century B.C. Ultimately, the Nephites are destroyed around A.D. 385, but the fighting continues:
“The Lamanites have hunted my people, the Nephites, down from city to city and from place to place,” Moroni reports somewhere between A.D. 400-421, “even until they are no more; and great has been their fall; yea, great and marvelous is the destruction of my people, the Nephites. And behold, it is the hand of the Lord which hath done it. And behold also, the Lamanites are at war one with another; and the whole face of this land is one continual round of murder and bloodshed; and no one knoweth the end of the war” (see Mormon 8:7-8).
None of this proves the Book of Mormon true, of course. But it’s certainly consistent with the book’s historical narrative. And it bears further watching: . . . . . .
So far, National Geographic notes, the project has covered 800 square miles (2,100 square kilometers) of the Maya Biosphere Reserve, in Guatemala’s Petén region, producing the largest LiDAR data set ever obtained for archaeological research. Mayanists hope, though, that they will have mapped more than 5,000 square miles (14,000 square kilometers) of the heavily forested Guatemalan lowlands within three years.
. . . . . .
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larsenb
- Level 34 Illuminated
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Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place
Here is another article from Book of Mormon Central dealing with the recent LIDAR studies in northern Guatemala: 4 Ways the New Maya Discoveries May Relate to the Book of Mormon , located here: https://bookofmormoncentral.org/blog/4- ... -of-mormon
Interesting Extracts:
. . . . . . According to Parley P. Pratt, early critics dismissed the Book of Mormon, saying, "there were no antiquities in America, no ruined cities, buildings, monuments, inscriptions, mounds, or fortifications, to show the existence of such a people as the Book of Mormon described."
Based on this new evidence from the Maya lowlands, these grandiose descriptions are not so far-fetched after all. The details in this story support dozens of verses in the Book of Mormon that describe dense populations, sophisticated economies, road networks, large-scale agriculture, intensive land use, disaster-prone landscapes, and prevalent warfare. Even statements about "the whole face of the land" being covered by people and buildings may have been more than just hyperbole.
What is LiDAR?
LiDAR is a technology where expensive equipment is flown in a slow grid pattern over a target area. Billions of pulsed laser beams penetrate the forest canopy and bounce off structures below to create a massive data cloud. Graphics processing with supercomputers then yields highly accurate 3-D maps of the scanned surface. This digital imaging technique is revolutionizing Mesoamerican archaeology where important ruins lie concealed beneath jungle or forest.
How do these new discoveries relate to the Book of Mormon?
The correlation between this new scientific data and the Book of Mormon is simply remarkable. The following is a list of discoveries with this new LiDAR technology, as well as potentially related Book of Mormon passages. While not comprehensive, this list should give readers a pretty good idea of how well the Book of Mormon fits into the archaeological record.
1. Population Size
"And the people began to be very numerous, and began to scatter abroad upon the face of the earth" (Mosiah 27:6)
These new LiDAR images have revleaed 60,000 previously unknown structures, leading experts to new population estimates as high as 15–20 million for the lowland Maya during the Classic period. This means Maya civilization was much more dense, complex and advanced than previously thought. This is consistent with the situation described by Mormon: "The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea" (Mormon 1:7). Early Book of Mormon authors made similar descriptions (Mosiah 27:6; Jarom 1:8).
2. Warfare
Battle in the Sidon (Alma 2) by James Fullmer
"Moroni had fortified, or had built forts of security, for every city in all the land round about" (Alma 49:13)
"the Lamanites are at war one with another; and the whole face of this land is one continual round of murder and bloodshed; and no one knoweth the end of the war." (Mormon 8:8 ca. AD 400)
Researchers have been particularly surprised by "the ubiquity of defensive walls, ramparts, terraces, and fortresses," leading to "suprising insights into ... the militarization in the Maya Lowlands." Other recent findings demonstrate impressive chronological correlation between widespread fortifications in the Maya lowlands and the Book of Mormon. Endemic warfare over centuries was norm and warfare was particularly prevalent in the early classic AD 250–500, consistent with the timing of final wars of the Nephites and continued warfare thereafter among the Lamanites (Mormon 8:8).
3. Infrastructure
"And there were many highways cast up, and many roads made" (3 Nephi 6:8)
These 3D scans reveal sophisticated Mayan infrastructure at a never-before-seen level. The mesoamerican jungle now reveals a vast network of highways and roads, elevated so they functioned even in the rainy season. We now know that the Maya had a well-developed infrastructure that provided public works such as dams, ditches, irrigation systems, reservoirs, and stone quarries. Mormon similarly describes the construction of highways and road systems in 3 Nephi 6:8. The Book of Mormon mentions other public works such as dikes (Alma 49:22), irrigation systems (Alma 17:26–27), and stone masonry (Alma 48:8).
4. Animals and Food
"an abundance of flocks and herds, and fatlings of every kind" (Alma 1:29)
"They did raise grain in abundance[...]And they did raise many flocks and herds, yea, many fatlings." (Helaman 6:12)
The LiDAR technology has uncovered remains of animal pens, and reveals that food production was at an industrial scale. The Book of Mormon similarly talks about the vast production of food and domestication of animals.
Interesting Extracts:
. . . . . . According to Parley P. Pratt, early critics dismissed the Book of Mormon, saying, "there were no antiquities in America, no ruined cities, buildings, monuments, inscriptions, mounds, or fortifications, to show the existence of such a people as the Book of Mormon described."
Based on this new evidence from the Maya lowlands, these grandiose descriptions are not so far-fetched after all. The details in this story support dozens of verses in the Book of Mormon that describe dense populations, sophisticated economies, road networks, large-scale agriculture, intensive land use, disaster-prone landscapes, and prevalent warfare. Even statements about "the whole face of the land" being covered by people and buildings may have been more than just hyperbole.
What is LiDAR?
LiDAR is a technology where expensive equipment is flown in a slow grid pattern over a target area. Billions of pulsed laser beams penetrate the forest canopy and bounce off structures below to create a massive data cloud. Graphics processing with supercomputers then yields highly accurate 3-D maps of the scanned surface. This digital imaging technique is revolutionizing Mesoamerican archaeology where important ruins lie concealed beneath jungle or forest.
How do these new discoveries relate to the Book of Mormon?
The correlation between this new scientific data and the Book of Mormon is simply remarkable. The following is a list of discoveries with this new LiDAR technology, as well as potentially related Book of Mormon passages. While not comprehensive, this list should give readers a pretty good idea of how well the Book of Mormon fits into the archaeological record.
1. Population Size
"And the people began to be very numerous, and began to scatter abroad upon the face of the earth" (Mosiah 27:6)
These new LiDAR images have revleaed 60,000 previously unknown structures, leading experts to new population estimates as high as 15–20 million for the lowland Maya during the Classic period. This means Maya civilization was much more dense, complex and advanced than previously thought. This is consistent with the situation described by Mormon: "The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea" (Mormon 1:7). Early Book of Mormon authors made similar descriptions (Mosiah 27:6; Jarom 1:8).
2. Warfare
Battle in the Sidon (Alma 2) by James Fullmer
"Moroni had fortified, or had built forts of security, for every city in all the land round about" (Alma 49:13)
"the Lamanites are at war one with another; and the whole face of this land is one continual round of murder and bloodshed; and no one knoweth the end of the war." (Mormon 8:8 ca. AD 400)
Researchers have been particularly surprised by "the ubiquity of defensive walls, ramparts, terraces, and fortresses," leading to "suprising insights into ... the militarization in the Maya Lowlands." Other recent findings demonstrate impressive chronological correlation between widespread fortifications in the Maya lowlands and the Book of Mormon. Endemic warfare over centuries was norm and warfare was particularly prevalent in the early classic AD 250–500, consistent with the timing of final wars of the Nephites and continued warfare thereafter among the Lamanites (Mormon 8:8).
3. Infrastructure
"And there were many highways cast up, and many roads made" (3 Nephi 6:8)
These 3D scans reveal sophisticated Mayan infrastructure at a never-before-seen level. The mesoamerican jungle now reveals a vast network of highways and roads, elevated so they functioned even in the rainy season. We now know that the Maya had a well-developed infrastructure that provided public works such as dams, ditches, irrigation systems, reservoirs, and stone quarries. Mormon similarly describes the construction of highways and road systems in 3 Nephi 6:8. The Book of Mormon mentions other public works such as dikes (Alma 49:22), irrigation systems (Alma 17:26–27), and stone masonry (Alma 48:8).
4. Animals and Food
"an abundance of flocks and herds, and fatlings of every kind" (Alma 1:29)
"They did raise grain in abundance[...]And they did raise many flocks and herds, yea, many fatlings." (Helaman 6:12)
The LiDAR technology has uncovered remains of animal pens, and reveals that food production was at an industrial scale. The Book of Mormon similarly talks about the vast production of food and domestication of animals.
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gardener4life
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1690
Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place
When I was in high school I had this wonderful Spanish teacher. He was the Spanish teacher of all Spanish teachers. I don't think he knew how cool we thought he was. Anyways on Fridays he used to show us slides of pictures of his travels to Mexico and South America. And even Spain. Chiefest among them he also had slides of ruins of Indian cities. This was very fun to look at for us.
Anyway he often mixed them together with the Mayans and Aztecs. So when one of the slides came up I can't remember if it was Aztec or Mayan...but anyway he brought up the idea that when they were excavating it, on the bottom of the temple pyramid inside they found murals of a red skinned people doing blood sacrifice on a white skinned people.
This is just one problem with the meso-America theory. There are a lot of things I could bring up.
So part of the problem is that people are thinking this has to be either, or 'OR' but not both. What I mean is...both models could be real, but just one might be the Lamanite lands and the other be the Nephite lands. During a lot of periods their technology and living wasn't too different from each other. But people are so insistent that one or the other has to be the Nephites that they discount that the Lamanites spread out pretty darn far and so on.
How would really know the Lamanite lands from the Nephite lands? My hope in bringing this up is that people will argue less about it. You might not always be able to tell. FInding the Lamanite lands is also interesting and because both are important you might be looking at either of the two groups and they'd be real models. And there are even verses about trade going on between the two peoples at certain points in the B of M.
I think that I have to say that if we can argue about it that we're not ready to know yet. It's better for us to just focus on building our faith and testimony until the day comes when we'll be ready to accept whatever the Lord reveals to us. But if we have even a bit of contention then we're not ready to know. So I'd suggest just focusing on still letting the Lord teach us and focus on the spiritual parts.
I do have my own answer though and I'm sure of it. But I don't want to cause a fight.
There is just one thing I'll point out...
Meso-American Aztec and Mayan cities were made of heavy stone. This is indicative of slave labor. Nobody has ever pointed this out that I've seen or read about and it's a point to consider.
The Nephites were a free people. There's even verses of when they had POWs they had the POWs in the war (Captain Moroni's time) that they put them to work moving earth and timbers to strengthen their defenses. A free people isn't likely to have stone cities because if you don't have technology it would be too hard to build with heavy dressed stone without having a slave labor force. It also says the Nephites built with earth and timbers...
The Lord said in several places in the Book of Mormon that when they become wicked he will take away their cities. There are all kinds of historical and archaeological ways this could be argued to applied but is significant in trying to figure out where they lived. If the Lord said he'll take away their cities, and that there was a curse upon the land to not find their belongings that does explain why people have trouble agreeing upon where they lived. And it will likely continue to be this way since people in our time aren't much more righteous than they were when they were going bad as a society.
People also don't take into account about that part.
Another problem is that people that propelled the meso-American theory ignored early church leaders. You have a mountain of quotes from early church leaders until around David O McKay's time quoting about Book of Mormon locations. Then suddenly BYU scholars completely ignored everything that they'd been saying for a whole century to pursue this other meso-American theory. How can you honestly discount that?
And people saying Joseph Smith said something about meso-America...you better be careful thinking that. For that one supposed quote there are many other quotes about 'this land'. And in so quoting him it doesn't differentiate between him talking about Nephite or Lamanite lands. He could have also been thinking about the greatest missionary story of all time while thinking or saying something about a place; which is the story of Ammon and Lamoni...which did not take place in Nephite lands.
JS knew where the Book of Mormon took place. There was no guessing. He absolutely knew. He was personally tutored by Moroni and others. He didn't relate all the things he was shown. (Many prophets were told by the Lord some things were too sacred to bring up.) Also there are many times when Joseph Smith was saying 'THIS LAND' was where they lived. Not that other land over there.
Anyway he often mixed them together with the Mayans and Aztecs. So when one of the slides came up I can't remember if it was Aztec or Mayan...but anyway he brought up the idea that when they were excavating it, on the bottom of the temple pyramid inside they found murals of a red skinned people doing blood sacrifice on a white skinned people.
This is just one problem with the meso-America theory. There are a lot of things I could bring up.
So part of the problem is that people are thinking this has to be either, or 'OR' but not both. What I mean is...both models could be real, but just one might be the Lamanite lands and the other be the Nephite lands. During a lot of periods their technology and living wasn't too different from each other. But people are so insistent that one or the other has to be the Nephites that they discount that the Lamanites spread out pretty darn far and so on.
How would really know the Lamanite lands from the Nephite lands? My hope in bringing this up is that people will argue less about it. You might not always be able to tell. FInding the Lamanite lands is also interesting and because both are important you might be looking at either of the two groups and they'd be real models. And there are even verses about trade going on between the two peoples at certain points in the B of M.
I think that I have to say that if we can argue about it that we're not ready to know yet. It's better for us to just focus on building our faith and testimony until the day comes when we'll be ready to accept whatever the Lord reveals to us. But if we have even a bit of contention then we're not ready to know. So I'd suggest just focusing on still letting the Lord teach us and focus on the spiritual parts.
I do have my own answer though and I'm sure of it. But I don't want to cause a fight.
There is just one thing I'll point out...
Meso-American Aztec and Mayan cities were made of heavy stone. This is indicative of slave labor. Nobody has ever pointed this out that I've seen or read about and it's a point to consider.
The Nephites were a free people. There's even verses of when they had POWs they had the POWs in the war (Captain Moroni's time) that they put them to work moving earth and timbers to strengthen their defenses. A free people isn't likely to have stone cities because if you don't have technology it would be too hard to build with heavy dressed stone without having a slave labor force. It also says the Nephites built with earth and timbers...
The Lord said in several places in the Book of Mormon that when they become wicked he will take away their cities. There are all kinds of historical and archaeological ways this could be argued to applied but is significant in trying to figure out where they lived. If the Lord said he'll take away their cities, and that there was a curse upon the land to not find their belongings that does explain why people have trouble agreeing upon where they lived. And it will likely continue to be this way since people in our time aren't much more righteous than they were when they were going bad as a society.
People also don't take into account about that part.
Another problem is that people that propelled the meso-American theory ignored early church leaders. You have a mountain of quotes from early church leaders until around David O McKay's time quoting about Book of Mormon locations. Then suddenly BYU scholars completely ignored everything that they'd been saying for a whole century to pursue this other meso-American theory. How can you honestly discount that?
And people saying Joseph Smith said something about meso-America...you better be careful thinking that. For that one supposed quote there are many other quotes about 'this land'. And in so quoting him it doesn't differentiate between him talking about Nephite or Lamanite lands. He could have also been thinking about the greatest missionary story of all time while thinking or saying something about a place; which is the story of Ammon and Lamoni...which did not take place in Nephite lands.
JS knew where the Book of Mormon took place. There was no guessing. He absolutely knew. He was personally tutored by Moroni and others. He didn't relate all the things he was shown. (Many prophets were told by the Lord some things were too sacred to bring up.) Also there are many times when Joseph Smith was saying 'THIS LAND' was where they lived. Not that other land over there.
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Teancum
- captain of 100
- Posts: 873
Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place
I agree there is nothing about this subject worth having contention over. Does no good and accomplishes nothing.
I once had a very good friend tell me that he believed that the city of Jacobagauth (spelling?) that had the mountain cover over it because of the wickedness of its inhabitants at the time of Christ, was under the peak of Ben Lomond in Ogden area of Utah. This he stated because driving along the Wasatch front, you can see the strata layers of rock are lifted up nearly evenly all along the Wasatch range except for that place where you can see that the entire uplift of the mountain has risen up and slid over the underlying ground.
I don't know as I have not dug under that mountain to see if there is a city there. One thing I can tell though is that there are places around that do show signs of serious cataclysmic change. Sometimes I conjecture that this must have happened when Christ was crucified. But of course I have not dated the landscape by counting tree rings or any other verification. Just finding awe and wonder at the sheer power and display of nature. So in reality, I am in awe and impressed by the display of God's power, might and majesty.
I find I have those same feelings when I see ancient sites of habitation, wherever they happen to be, or artifacts and antiquities. It brings to my understanding that whatever a people try to do, or build, or be, if it is not according to God's will, then it comes to ruins. Me and my efforts included.
I am not basing my testimony on any of the conjecture or external evidences though, but on the Book of Mormon itself, and the witness from God I have received about it. The other stuff from all the different models and finds are neat to see and interesting, but the Book stands on its own. When further finds come to light, and they will, it will still be necessary to have your testimony based upon the witness from God and not some thing else.
I once had a very good friend tell me that he believed that the city of Jacobagauth (spelling?) that had the mountain cover over it because of the wickedness of its inhabitants at the time of Christ, was under the peak of Ben Lomond in Ogden area of Utah. This he stated because driving along the Wasatch front, you can see the strata layers of rock are lifted up nearly evenly all along the Wasatch range except for that place where you can see that the entire uplift of the mountain has risen up and slid over the underlying ground.
I don't know as I have not dug under that mountain to see if there is a city there. One thing I can tell though is that there are places around that do show signs of serious cataclysmic change. Sometimes I conjecture that this must have happened when Christ was crucified. But of course I have not dated the landscape by counting tree rings or any other verification. Just finding awe and wonder at the sheer power and display of nature. So in reality, I am in awe and impressed by the display of God's power, might and majesty.
I find I have those same feelings when I see ancient sites of habitation, wherever they happen to be, or artifacts and antiquities. It brings to my understanding that whatever a people try to do, or build, or be, if it is not according to God's will, then it comes to ruins. Me and my efforts included.
I am not basing my testimony on any of the conjecture or external evidences though, but on the Book of Mormon itself, and the witness from God I have received about it. The other stuff from all the different models and finds are neat to see and interesting, but the Book stands on its own. When further finds come to light, and they will, it will still be necessary to have your testimony based upon the witness from God and not some thing else.
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larsenb
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 10919
- Location: Between here and Standing Rock
Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place
Aztecs/classical Mayans were after the main Book of Mormon events, so if they built temples, etc., of stone, it really doesn't mean the Nephites and earlier Lamanites, living in an earlier time, did as well. Though the Nephites/Lamanites, could very well have built some of their buildings in stone.gardener4life wrote: ↑February 11th, 2018, 5:45 am . . . . . There is just one thing I'll point out...
Meso-American Aztec and Mayan cities were made of heavy stone. This is indicative of slave labor. Nobody has ever pointed this out that I've seen or read about and it's a point to consider.
The Nephites were a free people. There's even verses of when they had POWs they had the POWs in the war (Captain Moroni's time) that they put them to work moving earth and timbers to strengthen their defenses. A free people isn't likely to have stone cities because if you don't have technology it would be too hard to build with heavy dressed stone without having a slave labor force. It also says the Nephites built with earth and timbers... . . . . .
And people saying Joseph Smith said something about meso-America...you better be careful thinking that. For that one supposed quote there are many other quotes about 'this land'. And in so quoting him it doesn't differentiate between him talking about Nephite or Lamanite lands. He could have also been thinking about the greatest missionary story of all time while thinking or saying something about a place; which is the story of Ammon and Lamoni...which did not take place in Nephite lands.
JS knew where the Book of Mormon took place. There was no guessing. He absolutely knew. He was personally tutored by Moroni and others. He didn't relate all the things he was shown. (Many prophets were told by the Lord some things were too sacred to bring up.) Also there are many times when Joseph Smith was saying 'THIS LAND' was where they lived. Not that other land over there.
In fact, Alma 48: says they did build fortification walls of stone:
"Yea, he had been strengthening the armies of the Nephites, and erecting small forts, or places of resort; throwing up banks of earth round about to enclose his armies, and also building walls of stone to encircle them about, round about their cities and the borders of their lands; yea, all round about the land."
On the other hand, seeing stone temples/etc., in Mayan lands (and Aztec lands) does not mean they avoided building structures with wood, especially their dwellings. These would likely decay through time, not leaving obvious remains.
And saying Joseph Smith absolutely knew the exact locations of Book of Mormon events is a pretty bold statement. Now, maybe he did know for certain. But I think it's a bit presumptuous for you to make that assertion, claiming at the same time, these lands are where you say they are. Why? You simply aren't privy to his inner thoughts, outside of conjecture.
This is especially true when you consider that the statements in the 1842 issues of the Times and Seasons regarding Book of Mormon locations likely being in southern Mexico/Northern Guatemala, have been shown with strong evidence to have been written by Joseph Smith (ref. Joseph Smith and the Geography of the Book of Mormon, by Dr. John L. Lund, 2012).
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larsenb
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 10919
- Location: Between here and Standing Rock
Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place
Ancient elephants & Mayan shrine: Massive underwater caves reveal staggering history: https://www.rt.com/news/419328-underwat ... o-yucatan/
Archaeologists in Mexico have been showing off discoveries unearthed during their aquatic expeditions into the world’s largest underwater cave.
Researchers from the Gran Acuifero Maya (GAM) exploration and preservation group presented ancient relics recovered from the site on Monday, including fossils of a type of ancient elephant, giant sloths and a shrine to a Mayan god. It’s believed that desperate animals ventured into the caves in search of water at times of severe drought, some of which then became trapped. . . . . . . .
- Elephant Bones Mayan Cave.jpg (222.51 KiB) Viewed 657 times
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samizdat
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3511
Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place
Hello guys,
It has been a while since I last posted on this topic and I needed to set something straight.
I was not advocating for a Mesoamerican or a Heartland model, or any other specific model. I am only looking at the climatic conditions described in the Book of Mormon plus the planting and other things and came up with those ideas as before.
Now, to be honest, I do not advocate for a Mesoamerican nor a Heartland model. I feel that based on the climatic scales shown in the text, then a South American model would seem more plausible on the surface. Or, at least, a model that starts in South America then expands up into Central America for the Nephites, and Mesoamerica expanding towards North America for the Jaredites.
But I know of very few scholars or any pundits that are pursuing any of this right now. A few bloggers yes. President Nelson seemed to indicate very strongly that South and Central America, being part of the American Continent, are part of the choice land described in the Scriptures.
I am always open to ideas from other areas though, and do not think that location is necessary to know. What we do know is that it happened.
It has been a while since I last posted on this topic and I needed to set something straight.
I was not advocating for a Mesoamerican or a Heartland model, or any other specific model. I am only looking at the climatic conditions described in the Book of Mormon plus the planting and other things and came up with those ideas as before.
Now, to be honest, I do not advocate for a Mesoamerican nor a Heartland model. I feel that based on the climatic scales shown in the text, then a South American model would seem more plausible on the surface. Or, at least, a model that starts in South America then expands up into Central America for the Nephites, and Mesoamerica expanding towards North America for the Jaredites.
But I know of very few scholars or any pundits that are pursuing any of this right now. A few bloggers yes. President Nelson seemed to indicate very strongly that South and Central America, being part of the American Continent, are part of the choice land described in the Scriptures.
I am always open to ideas from other areas though, and do not think that location is necessary to know. What we do know is that it happened.
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LDS Watchman
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Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place
South America is by far the best match to the scriptural record.samizdat wrote: ↑October 12th, 2020, 8:11 pm Hello guys,
It has been a while since I last posted on this topic and I needed to set something straight.
I was not advocating for a Mesoamerican or a Heartland model, or any other specific model. I am only looking at the climatic conditions described in the Book of Mormon plus the planting and other things and came up with those ideas as before.
Now, to be honest, I do not advocate for a Mesoamerican nor a Heartland model. I feel that based on the climatic scales shown in the text, then a South American model would seem more plausible on the surface. Or, at least, a model that starts in South America then expands up into Central America for the Nephites, and Mesoamerica expanding towards North America for the Jaredites.
But I know of very few scholars or any pundits that are pursuing any of this right now. A few bloggers yes. President Nelson seemed to indicate very strongly that South and Central America, being part of the American Continent, are part of the choice land described in the Scriptures.
I am always open to ideas from other areas though, and do not think that location is necessary to know. What we do know is that it happened.
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Alexander
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Lykos
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Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place
I believe based on the evidence we have south america is the best fit for the start and central core of the nephites
I think many "native" peoples in both north and south america could be traced back to nephites and lamanites, and in the course of time these things will be reconciled.
I think there is sufficient room for all these places people think was "the" place, to be "one of" the places where the decedents of lehi ended up eventually, but only south america works as a starting point
I think many "native" peoples in both north and south america could be traced back to nephites and lamanites, and in the course of time these things will be reconciled.
I think there is sufficient room for all these places people think was "the" place, to be "one of" the places where the decedents of lehi ended up eventually, but only south america works as a starting point
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nightlight
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Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place
Only?Lykos wrote: ↑October 13th, 2020, 12:56 am I believe based on the evidence we have south america is the best fit for the start and central core of the nephites
I think many "native" peoples in both north and south america could be traced back to nephites and lamanites, and in the course of time these things will be reconciled.
I think there is sufficient room for all these places people think was "the" place, to be "one of" the places where the decedents of lehi ended up eventually, but only south america works as a starting point
What if the land masses, making up the continent, looked different before Christ came to this land in the flesh?
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Alexander
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Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place
The land of promise: where the people of Lehi, Mulek, and Jared lived, a land for the inheritance of the Lamanite remnant, where Zion and New Jerusalem will be established, the same land of Adam Ondi Ahmen, a land where a blessed gentile nation would rise up above all others, a nation and land of liberty, where the gentile nation would fight against its mother nation, where the Hill Shim and Cumorah reside, where Joseph Smith opened the 6th dispensation, where tent-dwelling natives lived, a land of security and prosperity...
North America is the promised land.
North America is the promised land.
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Lykos
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Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place
Anything could be possible, but based on the current info I have, yes.
I do think that think if we could see a true snapshot of the Americas (north and south) from space at the time of Christ we would be very surprised by the differences.
I do think that think if we could see a true snapshot of the Americas (north and south) from space at the time of Christ we would be very surprised by the differences.
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LDS Physician
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Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place
Quite a migration of Moroni's, then, to upstate New York with the plates!
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samizdat
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Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place
Battle of Cumorah: 385 ADLDS Physician wrote: ↑October 13th, 2020, 5:12 pm Quite a migration of Moroni's, then, to upstate New York with the plates!
Plates buried: 421 AD
That's 36 years...Karl Bushby has been able to travel from Punta Arenas Chile to Turkmenistan on foot, in less than half that time.
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LDS Physician
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Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place
That's awesome!samizdat wrote: ↑October 13th, 2020, 7:43 pmBattle of Cumorah: 385 ADLDS Physician wrote: ↑October 13th, 2020, 5:12 pm Quite a migration of Moroni's, then, to upstate New York with the plates!
Plates buried: 421 AD
That's 36 years...Karl Bushby has been able to travel from Punta Arenas Chile to Turkmenistan on foot, in less than half that time.
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Ferrisbueller
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Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place
Bay Area of California is where Lehi landed. imo
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mahalanobis
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Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place
If we believe the geologists, the last ice age had the sea levels much lower and there were a lot more "narrow necks of land" connecting the Caribbean isles.
Jacob or Nephi said early on: "we are upon an isle of the sea"
And what if their (the geologists) timing was wrong about when the sea level was actually lower?
I seem to recall that there were several underwater ruins off the coast of Cuba.
And if we're assuming the textbooks are wrong about the timing of the ice age, then the horses fossil record get shifted into Book of Mormon timing too.
NOTE:
In academic circles, this would get laughed out of the room. But the audience on this website occasionally embraces young-Earth creationism and all fossils being younger than we're led to believe - ... thus it's not a huge stretch to suggest that the textbook timing of the ice age was wrong (along with the timing of the ice age animal fossil record = American horses in Lehi's time)
These are just random thoughts. I'm not trying to create a model.
Jacob or Nephi said early on: "we are upon an isle of the sea"
And what if their (the geologists) timing was wrong about when the sea level was actually lower?
I seem to recall that there were several underwater ruins off the coast of Cuba.
And if we're assuming the textbooks are wrong about the timing of the ice age, then the horses fossil record get shifted into Book of Mormon timing too.
NOTE:
In academic circles, this would get laughed out of the room. But the audience on this website occasionally embraces young-Earth creationism and all fossils being younger than we're led to believe - ... thus it's not a huge stretch to suggest that the textbook timing of the ice age was wrong (along with the timing of the ice age animal fossil record = American horses in Lehi's time)
These are just random thoughts. I'm not trying to create a model.
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TheDuke
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Re: Some thought where I believe the BoM took place
Gee central or south america must be the answer, I mean they are the land of the free, not USA. If Mexico isn't the core of global freedom, what is? And those lazy lamanites could run around eating a few wild pigs and cats, makes more sense than thriving on millions of herding bison. I could go on, and on, central and south america was nothing 2000 years ago, and never was capital of freedom. It is either North America (NY where plates were found, Ohio, Missouri where JS was) or it is fictionally located.
