Turning a blind eye to modern prophets

[Thinker]

Shadow,
Who’s church is this?
Is it “the church of latter day presidents” (aka prophets)?
Is it “The church of Jesus Christ?

If it is the church of the presidents, then yes it makes sense to blindly give your money to them and blindly trust that their lack of financial transparency is not hiding anything bad, and blindly trust in them as if they were God - infallible and could never lead you astray. If it is the church of the presidents, ignore what Jesus taught if it conflicts with the presidents teachings.

If it is the church of Jesus Christ, then Christ’s teachings prioritize above presidents teachings. The law of tithing we have is derived from Old Testament but supports the greatest commandments Jesus taught. Deuteronomy 14:28-29 explains that 1/3 of TITHES are to be given to the widows, fatherless - the poor. (Note that this scripture reference is convieniently missing under “tithing” in lds paper topical guides and bible dictionaries.) This was the lower law. Jesus taught by word and deed to give more. I could quote them, but I think you know about Christ’s teachings like the good Samaritan story, telling the wealthy man to give all he had to the poor, and his 2 greatest commandments to love God and love others as ourselves... “on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

David,
Again, when I refer to the poor, I do not mean people who take advantage of welfare programs in the US. I am referring to such extreme poverty which includes almost 1,000,000,000 (1/7) of our brothers and sisters worldwide who are “chronically hungry,” according to the World Health Organization. Many DIE every day due to related complications of starving.

When are you going to move on from the law of Moses and come into the 21st century Thinker? The gospel was restored through a Prophet of the Lord. We currently have a living Prophet today who holds all the keys of the Priesthood and receives revelation in conducting the affairs of the Kingdom of God on earth. Tithing is administered just as it should be. Stop kicking against the pricks and you will be far happier. I'm sure of it.

Since you do not think commandments from the Old or New Testament apply anymore, I'm left to assume you see our church not as The Church of Jesus Christ (except in vain/word only) but more as "the church of the latter day presidents." At least you're being open about it. Many (including me before) tend to deny it, but then in practice do prioritize church leader teachings over Jesus Christ's teachings.

[Thinker]

Where? Where is the evidence that at least 1/3 of TITHES are given to help those suffering and dying of extreme poverty? Why did Oaks say that no tithes go to the poor, when the LOWER law of tithing says at least 1/3 should be? Jesus suggested giving much more - in higher laws. Jesus said the 2 highest commandments that are above all prophets and laws are to love God and similarly, to love others as ourselves. Breaking the law of tithing as is being done is breaking the highest commandments. Sorry, but I can’t in good conscience sustain that.

It is true that sometimes there is blind obedience and practically worship to whoever happens to have lived and had seniority long enough to be labeled “prophet.” And what is really known of this person except words read off of teleprompters? I do believe as Joseph Smith suggested, in the need to seek and embrace truth wherever its found - but I will not blindly prioritize any fallible human being over God. They can, have and will lead astray. No other gods before God.

How do I know president Nelson is a prophet?

24 And now, behold, you have received a witness; for if I have told you things which no man knoweth have you not received a witness?

You to can receive the same witness that he is indeed a prophet of God.

I don't understand? What have you told that "no man knoweth"? How does this relate to what Thinker was even saying? The scripture is not saying something that I have told someone else, in the scripture this is Christ speaking and explaining how a witness comes and how you can identify it, see previous vs. It relates to what Thinker was saying because he responded to the previous comment about President Nelson being a prophet by saying he is not administrating Gods law of tithing correctly. A witness of a Prophet will help someone to not be lead by blind obedience as he was suggesting and put faith that his prophet is leading Christ's church according to his will. Our interpretation of scripture does not superseded Gods witness.

drtanner,
I once felt the spirit to leave my spouse and children to be with someone else. That's when I realized the importance of studying things out as well as spiritual guidance. "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there is one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded faith." -Thomas Jefferson

[Mark]

Shadow,
Who’s church is this?
Is it “the church of latter day presidents” (aka prophets)?
Is it “The church of Jesus Christ?

If it is the church of the presidents, then yes it makes sense to blindly give your money to them and blindly trust that their lack of financial transparency is not hiding anything bad, and blindly trust in them as if they were God - infallible and could never lead you astray. If it is the church of the presidents, ignore what Jesus taught if it conflicts with the presidents teachings.

If it is the church of Jesus Christ, then Christ’s teachings prioritize above presidents teachings. The law of tithing we have is derived from Old Testament but supports the greatest commandments Jesus taught. Deuteronomy 14:28-29 explains that 1/3 of TITHES are to be given to the widows, fatherless - the poor. (Note that this scripture reference is convieniently missing under “tithing” in lds paper topical guides and bible dictionaries.) This was the lower law. Jesus taught by word and deed to give more. I could quote them, but I think you know about Christ’s teachings like the good Samaritan story, telling the wealthy man to give all he had to the poor, and his 2 greatest commandments to love God and love others as ourselves... “on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

David,
Again, when I refer to the poor, I do not mean people who take advantage of welfare programs in the US. I am referring to such extreme poverty which includes almost 1,000,000,000 (1/7) of our brothers and sisters worldwide who are “chronically hungry,” according to the World Health Organization. Many DIE every day due to related complications of starving.

When are you going to move on from the law of Moses and come into the 21st century Thinker? The gospel was restored through a Prophet of the Lord. We currently have a living Prophet today who holds all the keys of the Priesthood and receives revelation in conducting the affairs of the Kingdom of God on earth. Tithing is administered just as it should be. Stop kicking against the pricks and you will be far happier. I'm sure of it.

Since you do not think commandments from the Old or New Testament apply anymore, I'm left to assume you see our church not as The Church of Jesus Christ (except in vain/word only) but more as "the church of the latter day presidents." At least you're being open about it. Many (including me before) tend to deny it, but then in practice do prioritize church leader teachings over Jesus Christ's teachings.

OUR church? Who is kidding who here thinker? The church that I am a part of no longer has any legitimacy in your mind. Your posts tell that story again and again. Let's not be coy here. You don't sustain its leadership in the slightest but instead think they have become corrupted. At least be honest about your situation. And by the way I don't think the law of Moses still applies to us today. I know that's a shocker..

[Thinker]

Mark,
If you do not believe in the laws of Moses, then not only do you not believe in the law of tithing (not even cherry picked), you also do not believe in the 10-commandments. But, unless you regularly kill or steal, you do believe in them, as many do. Moses is honored in the US capitol building as a significant law maker. And just because I believe in the law of tithing not being cherry-picked to deny poor of tithes, doesn’t mean I believe in every minor law of Moses. Jesus taught repeatedly to help those in need, so the law of tithing as it is supposed to be handled, would help save and improve lives, as Jesus asked us to.

• 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
  
  34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
  
  37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
  
  40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
  
  41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
  
  44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
  
  45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
  
  46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” -Matt 25

You claim that if I don’t agree with everything, I don’t belong in the church. If that’s true, only those who deify the church would belong. Your polarized thinking is really sad and may be why so many are leaving the church. It doesn’t matter to you that I go to church each Sunday, fulfill 3 callings and have regular FHE. I can’t imagine Jesus would ever be so exclusive. Infact, Jesus was kicked out, mocked, harassed and killed because he was questioning evil things religious leaders were doing.

[Finrock]

Shadow,
Who’s church is this?
Is it “the church of latter day presidents” (aka prophets)?
Is it “The church of Jesus Christ?

If it is the church of the presidents, then yes it makes sense to blindly give your money to them and blindly trust that their lack of financial transparency is not hiding anything bad, and blindly trust in them as if they were God - infallible and could never lead you astray. If it is the church of the presidents, ignore what Jesus taught if it conflicts with the presidents teachings.

If it is the church of Jesus Christ, then Christ’s teachings prioritize above presidents teachings. The law of tithing we have is derived from Old Testament but supports the greatest commandments Jesus taught. Deuteronomy 14:28-29 explains that 1/3 of TITHES are to be given to the widows, fatherless - the poor. (Note that this scripture reference is convieniently missing under “tithing” in lds paper topical guides and bible dictionaries.) This was the lower law. Jesus taught by word and deed to give more. I could quote them, but I think you know about Christ’s teachings like the good Samaritan story, telling the wealthy man to give all he had to the poor, and his 2 greatest commandments to love God and love others as ourselves... “on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

David,
Again, when I refer to the poor, I do not mean people who take advantage of welfare programs in the US. I am referring to such extreme poverty which includes almost 1,000,000,000 (1/7) of our brothers and sisters worldwide who are “chronically hungry,” according to the World Health Organization. Many DIE every day due to related complications of starving.

When are you going to move on from the law of Moses and come into the 21st century Thinker? The gospel was restored through a Prophet of the Lord. We currently have a living Prophet today who holds all the keys of the Priesthood and receives revelation in conducting the affairs of the Kingdom of God on earth. Tithing is administered just as it should be. Stop kicking against the pricks and you will be far happier. I'm sure of it.

Since you do not think commandments from the Old or New Testament apply anymore, I'm left to assume you see our church not as The Church of Jesus Christ (except in vain/word only) but more as "the church of the latter day presidents." At least you're being open about it. Many (including me before) tend to deny it, but then in practice do prioritize church leader teachings over Jesus Christ's teachings.

OUR church? Who is kidding who here thinker? The church that I am a part of no longer has any legitimacy in your mind. Your posts tell that story again and again. Let's not be coy here. You don't sustain its leadership in the slightest but instead think they have become corrupted. At least be honest about your situation. And by the way I don't think the law of Moses still applies to us today. I know that's a shocker..

Sentiments like what you've expressed, Mark, are pretentious, condescending nonsense and in fact your sentiment contributes to the stereo type that Mormonism is a cult. Perhaps its just so common and normal to say things like this on the internet that people don't really even think twice about the meaning and implications of their words.

Imagine if Thinker was a person who you were assigned to home teach. Would you really get in his face after he expresses his ideas and tell him he is a liar and that he should stop pretending to be a member of the Church? Are you really in a position to make such claims? The Church doesn't go around accusing or calling people apostate until after the stake High Council has convened in a fair, loving, and spirit led Church court. And even after the High Council has made a judgment, the person is treated with dignity and respect. The Church certainly doesn't attempt to shame or guilt the person in public. Shouldn't you follow the example the Church and its leaders have provided in how to treat people? Why don't you let the Church and its inspired process determine who is or isn't an apostate and you just lovingly share you views, perspectives, and beliefs?

Mormonism is not a cult. The Church doesn't require that we all think in an homogenized, groupthink way. Self-proclaimed TBM on the internet don't dictate what the tenets of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are and who qualifies as a faithful member or not.

-Finrock

[drtanner]

You claim that if I don’t agree with everything, I don’t belong in the church. If that’s true, only those who deify the church would belong. Your polarized thinking is really sad and may be why so many are leaving the church. It doesn’t matter to you that I go to church each Sunday, fulfill 3 callings and have regular FHE. I can’t imagine Jesus would ever be so exclusive. In fact, Jesus was kicked out, mocked, harassed and killed because he was questioning evil things religious leaders were doing.

Thinker, I am grateful you are still a part of the church and the service you still render despite some of your questions or thoughts. I'm sure we would all be shocked if we were somehow able to see list of question most of us members still have that remain unanswered and that includes the leaders. I sense deep down that you have a desire to love and serve Christ, and I can't think of a better foundation.

[shadow]

Shadow,
Who’s church is this?
Is it “the church of latter day presidents” (aka prophets)?
Is it “The church of Jesus Christ?

If it is the church of the presidents, then yes it makes sense to blindly give your money to them and blindly trust that their lack of financial transparency is not hiding anything bad, and blindly trust in them as if they were God - infallible and could never lead you astray. If it is the church of the presidents, ignore what Jesus taught if it conflicts with the presidents teachings.

If it is the church of Jesus Christ, then Christ’s teachings prioritize above presidents teachings. The law of tithing we have is derived from Old Testament but supports the greatest commandments Jesus taught. Deuteronomy 14:28-29 explains that 1/3 of TITHES are to be given to the widows, fatherless - the poor. (Note that this scripture reference is convieniently missing under “tithing” in lds paper topical guides and bible dictionaries.) This was the lower law. Jesus taught by word and deed to give more. I could quote them, but I think you know about Christ’s teachings like the good Samaritan story, telling the wealthy man to give all he had to the poor, and his 2 greatest commandments to love God and love others as ourselves... “on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

David,
Again, when I refer to the poor, I do not mean people who take advantage of welfare programs in the US. I am referring to such extreme poverty which includes almost 1,000,000,000 (1/7) of our brothers and sisters worldwide who are “chronically hungry,” according to the World Health Organization. Many DIE every day due to related complications of starving.

When are you going to move on from the law of Moses and come into the 21st century Thinker? The gospel was restored through a Prophet of the Lord. We currently have a living Prophet today who holds all the keys of the Priesthood and receives revelation in conducting the affairs of the Kingdom of God on earth. Tithing is administered just as it should be. Stop kicking against the pricks and you will be far happier. I'm sure of it.

Since you do not think commandments from the Old or New Testament apply anymore, I'm left to assume you see our church not as The Church of Jesus Christ (except in vain/word only) but more as "the church of the latter day presidents." At least you're being open about it. Many (including me before) tend to deny it, but then in practice do prioritize church leader teachings over Jesus Christ's teachings.

So 1/3 of the tithes go to the poor, you claim. How often?? -the answer is very clear in the OT and I'll help you out a bit- only once every 3 years.

How well do you follow OT commandments?- 11 ¶ Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.
Or this-
5 ¶ The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.
Do you wear pants??

There are plenty of other fun commandments in the OT but let's first start with these

[Durzan]

So 1/3 of the tithes go to the poor, you claim. How often?? -the answer is very clear in the OT and I'll help you out a bit- only once every 3 years.

That still translates to the fact that in old testament times 33% of all tithing received goes to the poor yearly. The fact that you waited until you had a year's worth of tithing before distributing it is irrelevant.

No, we are not bound by OT laws... specifically the Law of Moses, although we are bound by the 10 Commandments.

[shadow]

So 1/3 of the tithes go to the poor, you claim. How often?? -the answer is very clear in the OT and I'll help you out a bit- only once every 3 years.

That still translates to the fact that in old testament times 33% of all tithing received goes to the poor yearly. The fact that you waited until you had a year's worth of tithing before distributing it is irrelevant.

No, we are not bound by OT laws... specifically the Law of Moses, although we are bound by the 10 Commandments.

It didn't necessarily go to the poor yearly, it went to them ONCE every 3 years. I suspect tithe payers were on different schedules, I hope. There were a few different tithes in those OT times which some have successfully argued were tithes totaling 23%. The 10% general tithe, the 10% worship tithe and the once every 3 year welfare tithe. Today we have one 10% tithe and a generous fast offering.

If any commandment keepers don't want their bacon, send it to me

[Rand]

Many (including me before) tend to deny it, but then in practice do prioritize church leader teachings over Jesus Christ's teachings.

I am sure you have recounted examples of this Thinker, but would you mind sharing again some examples of what teachings by the modern leaders of the LDS Church you perceive to be of this nature?

[Mark]

When are you going to move on from the law of Moses and come into the 21st century Thinker? The gospel was restored through a Prophet of the Lord. We currently have a living Prophet today who holds all the keys of the Priesthood and receives revelation in conducting the affairs of the Kingdom of God on earth. Tithing is administered just as it should be. Stop kicking against the pricks and you will be far happier. I'm sure of it.

Since you do not think commandments from the Old or New Testament apply anymore, I'm left to assume you see our church not as The Church of Jesus Christ (except in vain/word only) but more as "the church of the latter day presidents." At least you're being open about it. Many (including me before) tend to deny it, but then in practice do prioritize church leader teachings over Jesus Christ's teachings.

OUR church? Who is kidding who here thinker? The church that I am a part of no longer has any legitimacy in your mind. Your posts tell that story again and again. Let's not be coy here. You don't sustain its leadership in the slightest but instead think they have become corrupted. At least be honest about your situation. And by the way I don't think the law of Moses still applies to us today. I know that's a shocker..

Sentiments like what you've expressed, Mark, are pretentious, condescending nonsense and in fact your sentiment contributes to the stereo type that Mormonism is a cult. Perhaps its just so common and normal to say things like this on the internet that people don't really even think twice about the meaning and implications of their words.

Imagine if Thinker was a person who you were assigned to home teach. Would you really get in his face after he expresses his ideas and tell him he is a liar and that he should stop pretending to be a member of the Church? Are you really in a position to make such claims? The Church doesn't go around accusing or calling people apostate until after the stake High Council has convened in a fair, loving, and spirit led Church court. And even after the High Council has made a judgment, the person is treated with dignity and respect. The Church certainly doesn't attempt to shame or guilt the person in public. Shouldn't you follow the example the Church and its leaders have provided in how to treat people? Why don't you let the Church and its inspired process determine who is or isn't an apostate and you just lovingly share you views, perspectives, and beliefs?

Mormonism is not a cult. The Church doesn't require that we all think in an homogenized, groupthink way. Self-proclaimed TBM on the internet don't dictate what the tenets of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are and who qualifies as a faithful member or not.

-Finrock

Get off your high horse Finrock. You dont have a clue what your talking about. I am not basing my opnions about thinker from one or 2 current posts. This sister has been trashing the church and its leaders for years on this site. Tithing is just 1 of several things that she thinks has become corrupted. If she does sustain the current leadership she has a wacky way of showing it. Going on an internet site and anonymously finding fault after fault with church policies and doctrines and leaderships decisions does not constitute sustaining. Not even close.

[Durzan]

Calm down everyone we are all friends here. No need to let pride, arrogance, and contention sour the conversation. If it gets to that point I'll call brian in here to shut things down. mmmk?

It didn't necessarily go to the poor yearly, it went to them ONCE every 3 years. I suspect tithe payers were on different schedules, I hope. There were a few different tithes in those OT times which some have successfully argued were tithes totaling 23%. The 10% general tithe, the 10% worship tithe and the once every 3 year welfare tithe. Today we have one 10% tithe and a generous fast offering.

I think you missed my point. What you said made it sound like once every three years, they gave 1/3 of all tithing collected during those three years to the poor... which would equate to 33% of all the tithing collected by the church on a yearly basis. I did not say that they had a tithing rate of 33%.

[Thinker]

Many (including me before) tend to deny it, but then in practice do prioritize church leader teachings over Jesus Christ's teachings.

I am sure you have recounted examples of this Thinker, but would you mind sharing again some examples of what teachings by the modern leaders of the LDS Church you perceive to be of this nature?

Rand,
This thread has plenty of examples of members prioritizing church leaders over Christ's teachings. Read through it without preconceived bias and you'll see for yourself.

Still, I felt the spirit to share with you...
Christ's laws did not destroy the lower law - but built on them.
IE: Thou shalt not kill... and Christ said, basically to not even hold on to resentment.
Thou shall not commit adultery... and Christ said to not even lust after another.
Jesus said, "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you..." - Matt:5:43-44
Jesus never ex-communicated anyone, nor did he ignore or look down on someone when others did. He loved all, no matter what.
The OT law of tithing said to give 1/3 of tithes to the poor, Jesus asked to give all you could to the poor.

There were many things Christ taught, but he explained that the 2 greatest commandments are to love God and love others as ourselves... "on these 2 commandments hang all the law and the prophets." So, if a prophet tells you to give tithes to him without him doing at least the lower law that Moses instructed (1/3 of tithes to the poor), then you should not do as the prophet said, but do as Christ taught - in ensuring the poor are taken care of through the lower law (via tithes) and through the higher law (any other means possible). However, the peer pressure to "follow the prophet" above Christ is overwhelming and nobody wants to be considered "apostate" or shunned, so they prioritize church leaders over Christ's teachings and join in the shunning of anyone who dares to follow Christ over church leaders. "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." -Matt 10:22

Despite leaders not following Christ's highest commandments, regarding tithes (& indirectly causing much suffering), members have been taught to equate church leaders with Christ: “Christ and his prophets go together... it is not possible to believe in one without believing in the other... by rejecting the prophets we reject Christ himself.” - Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, cited in 1978 Devotional Speeches of the Year: BYU Devotional and Addresses, 1978, p. 118 "If ye love me, keep my commandments." How can anyone be equated with Christ, when they show by action that they do not keep his 2 highest commandments?

Church leaders have been deified - as infallible and "could never lead you astray." This is breaking Jesus's highest commandment to love God. Even Jesus corrected someone when they tried to make him as if he was God... "Why callest thou me GOoD? None is GOoD, save one, that is God."
IE: “My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he tells you to do something wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.” - Prophet Heber J. Grant, as quoted by Apostle Marion G. Romney in “The Covenant of the Priesthood,” Ensign, July 1972, p. 98
For many years, the Priesthood and Relief Society hour of the 3-hour block each Sunday has been dedicated not to studying the words of Christ, but the words of church leaders. When the church built another shopping mall, using funds collected in the name of Jesus Christ, I questioned it and had a disagreement with a friend. Years later, her husband became bishop and brought me in to his office after my child was interviewed for baptism and said he heard I didn't support the church leaders. I said, "I support the good they do, but not the bad. Do you think they're perfect - like Gods?" He said, "They don't make mistakes" and told me I wouldn't be able to participate in my son's baptism program if I didn't agree with him about the church leaders never making mistakes. Among other things, this bishop deified church leaders and tried as he could to hurt me instead of following Christ.

These are some ways that church members have been misled to prioritize church leaders over Christ's teachings.

[Finrock]

Since you do not think commandments from the Old or New Testament apply anymore, I'm left to assume you see our church not as The Church of Jesus Christ (except in vain/word only) but more as "the church of the latter day presidents." At least you're being open about it. Many (including me before) tend to deny it, but then in practice do prioritize church leader teachings over Jesus Christ's teachings.

OUR church? Who is kidding who here thinker? The church that I am a part of no longer has any legitimacy in your mind. Your posts tell that story again and again. Let's not be coy here. You don't sustain its leadership in the slightest but instead think they have become corrupted. At least be honest about your situation. And by the way I don't think the law of Moses still applies to us today. I know that's a shocker..

Sentiments like what you've expressed, Mark, are pretentious, condescending nonsense and in fact your sentiment contributes to the stereo type that Mormonism is a cult. Perhaps its just so common and normal to say things like this on the internet that people don't really even think twice about the meaning and implications of their words.

Imagine if Thinker was a person who you were assigned to home teach. Would you really get in his face after he expresses his ideas and tell him he is a liar and that he should stop pretending to be a member of the Church? Are you really in a position to make such claims? The Church doesn't go around accusing or calling people apostate until after the stake High Council has convened in a fair, loving, and spirit led Church court. And even after the High Council has made a judgment, the person is treated with dignity and respect. The Church certainly doesn't attempt to shame or guilt the person in public. Shouldn't you follow the example the Church and its leaders have provided in how to treat people? Why don't you let the Church and its inspired process determine who is or isn't an apostate and you just lovingly share you views, perspectives, and beliefs?

Mormonism is not a cult. The Church doesn't require that we all think in an homogenized, groupthink way. Self-proclaimed TBM on the internet don't dictate what the tenets of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are and who qualifies as a faithful member or not.

-Finrock

Get off your high horse Finrock. You dont have a clue what your talking about. I am not basing my opnions about thinker from one or 2 current posts. This sister has been trashing the church and its leaders for years on this site. Tithing is just 1 of several things that she thinks has become corrupted. If she does sustain the current leadership she has a wacky way of showing it. Going on an internet site and anonymously finding fault after fault with church policies and doctrines and leaderships decisions does not constitute sustaining. Not even close.

I don't believe that your association with Thinker on this largely anonymous internet forum qualifies or justifies you accusing Thinker of being a liar and an apostate, especially when Thinker expressly tells you that he/she is a faithful member who serves to the best of his/her capacity in the Church. The fact that Thinker may understand things differently than you doesn't mean they are an apostate or a liar. Honestly, this type of behavior where we call people liars and accuse them of being apostate when we disagree during an online debate is antithetical to what has been taught by all of the prophets and apostles you regularly claim to sustain and to uphold. I don't believe that your particular interpretation, understanding, and paradigm of the Mormon religion is or ought to be the standard by which any Mormon is to measure their faithfulness and loyalty in the Church. Again, don't you think that it might be best if you leave the judging of apostates to the Church and its inspired process? This process is not based on a single individual and a single paradigm, but the judgements of a Church court for or against a member comes from a diverse group of priesthood holders who convene to consider the matter in a spirit of love, fairness, and respect.

“Each of us is an individual. Each of us is different. There must be respect for those differences. …

“… We must work harder to build mutual respect, an attitude of forbearance, with tolerance one for another regardless of the doctrines and philosophies which we may espouse. Concerning these you and I may disagree. But we can do so with respect and civility” (Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley [1997], 661, 665).

[Our doctrine is]...a doctrine of inclusion. That is what we believe. That is what we have been taught. Of all people on this earth, we should be the most loving, the kindest, and the most tolerant because of that doctrine.

Our leaders have consistently counseled us “to live with respect and appreciation for those not of our faith. There is so great a need for civility and mutual respect among those of differing beliefs and philosophies.”29

It is equally important that we be loving and kind to members of our own faith, regardless of their level of commitment or activity. The Savior has made it clear that we are not to judge each other.

I would ask us...to remember it is by divine design that not all the voices in God’s choir are the same. It takes variety—sopranos and altos, baritones and basses—to make rich music. To borrow a line quoted in the cheery correspondence of two remarkable Latter-day Saint women, “All God’s critters got a place in the choir.”6 When we disparage our uniqueness or try to conform to fictitious stereotypes...we lose the richness of tone and timbre that God intended when He created a world of diversity.

Now, this is not to say that everyone in this divine chorus can simply start shouting his or her own personal oratorio! Diversity is not cacophony, and choirs do require discipline—for our purpose today, Elder Hales, I would say discipleship—but once we have accepted divinely revealed lyrics and harmonious orchestration composed before the world was, then our Heavenly Father delights to have us sing in our own voice, not someone else’s. Believe in yourself, and believe in Him. Don’t demean your worth or denigrate your contribution. Above all, don’t abandon your role in the chorus. Why? Because you are unique; you are irreplaceable. The loss of even one voice diminishes every other singer in this great mortal choir of ours, including the loss of those who feel they are on the margins of society or the margins of the Church.

-Finrock

[David13]

I think Thinker has a rather good and righteous position here.
This is very similar to a situation I have been in lately.
And the conclusion I have come to is that the leaders of this church are in fact fallible.
The Catholic Church had a doctrine of Papal Infallibility. However, we can clearly see that is not true with today's current Pope. He's about as flawed as an human could be.
So Catholics today would be foolish indeed to adhere to the concept of Papal Infallibility.

To my knowledge, this church has never officially adopted a policy of prophet or other leader "infallibility". The church is run by humans who make human mistakes. We all have seen it.

And Thinker here outlines it in rather clear terms why it should not, from a scriptural point of view, from a theological point of view be adopted.

And that is without regard to the human mistakes made by those who have spoken of general authority infallibility.

In reality it doesn't exist.

So I invite you to tell me I'm wrong. (After all I've only been in this church 3 years)


As an aside, I think it's comical how Thinker here has been described as "he", "he/she" and asked if Thinker wore pants.
I think Thinker posts rather righteous thought without regard to gender. Thoughts applicable to humans.
dc

[Thinker]

Thanks, David. I admire that even if we’ve disagreed on some things in the past, you are still able to find areas which we agree. To me, that shows that you’re prioritizing truth over the human tendency to paint a person with big broad labels.

You, and some others on this thread, have helped me remember that there are so many good people - or rather there’s good in all and it’s an encouraging gift to see it brought out in others.

I do love our church! I have visited many different religious services (In applying the 11th article of faith) - Jewish synogogue, Islamic Mosque, Catholic Mass, Hindu Temple, Baptist church and Buddhist temple. Each had some GOoD, but I was left realizing that the lds church offers an unbeatable sense of community & practical application of spirituality through serving & loving one another. I have also discovered that the love is conditional for many, but I have hope & believe more & more are learning to love in more Christ-like ways, by prioritizing God & godly/Christlike teachings above all.

[Mark]

I think Thinker has a rather good and righteous position here.
This is very similar to a situation I have been in lately.
And the conclusion I have come to is that the leaders of this church are in fact fallible.
The Catholic Church had a doctrine of Papal Infallibility. However, we can clearly see that is not true with today's current Pope. He's about as flawed as an human could be.
So Catholics today would be foolish indeed to adhere to the concept of Papal Infallibility.

To my knowledge, this church has never officially adopted a policy of prophet or other leader "infallibility". The church is run by humans who make human mistakes. We all have seen it.

And Thinker here outlines it in rather clear terms why it should not, from a scriptural point of view, from a theological point of view be adopted.

And that is without regard to the human mistakes made by those who have spoken of general authority infallibility.

In reality it doesn't exist.

So I invite you to tell me I'm wrong. (After all I've only been in this church 3 years)


As an aside, I think it's comical how Thinker here has been described as "he", "he/she" and asked if Thinker wore pants.
I think Thinker posts rather righteous thought without regard to gender. Thoughts applicable to humans.
dc

If you read some of thinkers past posts you will quickly see her delusionment concerning the church today and its leaderships stance on several items. She does not see the church in a very positive light all to often. Let me give you just one recent example. There are dozens upon dozens if you choose to read them. They are plentiful.

Mindfields wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:58 am
Can you think of a better way to consistently have the best leader for the church than to choose the most senior / the one w the most experience of the apostles? I can’t.
I can. He would be called by God directly like every true Prophet before Brigham Young was.

The idea that the senior Apostle would always be the next Prophet when the sitting Prophet dies is a construct of man not of God. If of God there would be a revelation stating as much.

Thinker wrote:
"I agree, and I'd say the more correct term is simply, "President of the Church."
Still, maybe this is the best the church can come up with. Ideally, yes, each prophet would actually act as a prophet (prophecy, see a better future and actively lead people to it) and ideally, God would clearly make it known who that was to be. But as we know, in and out of the church, egos rule.

IMO, Prophets specific to our church, did kind of stop about Joseph Smith. Maybe prophets are kind of a one-time thing and no succession dynasty or whatever. Yesterday, I thought of how Martin Luther King Jr. was a true prophet - in word and deed. He was called of God, not by a group of people in a religious ceremony but by God. He saw a dream of a better future and actively led people to it - and as Joseph Smith, he was killed in the process."

Are you getting that David? The innuendos abound. "Prophets" in word and deed really stopped with Joseph Smith. It all went downhill from there. Martin Luther King had more of a claim to the title of "Prophet" than did any church leader after Joseph. That would include Pres. Nelson I assume. Thinker is reading right out of the Snuffer playbook. Today's church leadership are pretend Prophets driven by egos. This type of sophistry is repeated over and over again by thinker in post after post. But what do I know. I'm just a judgmental meany trying to drive all the honest in heart truth seekers away from the LDS church. Just ask finrock. He has it all figured out.

[Finrock]

I think Thinker has a rather good and righteous position here.
This is very similar to a situation I have been in lately.
And the conclusion I have come to is that the leaders of this church are in fact fallible.
The Catholic Church had a doctrine of Papal Infallibility. However, we can clearly see that is not true with today's current Pope. He's about as flawed as an human could be.
So Catholics today would be foolish indeed to adhere to the concept of Papal Infallibility.

To my knowledge, this church has never officially adopted a policy of prophet or other leader "infallibility". The church is run by humans who make human mistakes. We all have seen it.

And Thinker here outlines it in rather clear terms why it should not, from a scriptural point of view, from a theological point of view be adopted.

And that is without regard to the human mistakes made by those who have spoken of general authority infallibility.

In reality it doesn't exist.

So I invite you to tell me I'm wrong. (After all I've only been in this church 3 years)


As an aside, I think it's comical how Thinker here has been described as "he", "he/she" and asked if Thinker wore pants.
I think Thinker posts rather righteous thought without regard to gender. Thoughts applicable to humans.
dc

If you read some of thinkers past posts you will quickly see her delusionment concerning the church today and its leaderships stance on several items. She does not see the church in a very positive light all to often. Let me give you just one recent example. There are dozens upon dozens if you choose to read them. They are plentiful.

Mindfields wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:58 am
Can you think of a better way to consistently have the best leader for the church than to choose the most senior / the one w the most experience of the apostles? I can’t.
I can. He would be called by God directly like every true Prophet before Brigham Young was.

The idea that the senior Apostle would always be the next Prophet when the sitting Prophet dies is a construct of man not of God. If of God there would be a revelation stating as much.

Thinker wrote:
"I agree, and I'd say the more correct term is simply, "President of the Church."
Still, maybe this is the best the church can come up with. Ideally, yes, each prophet would actually act as a prophet (prophecy, see a better future and actively lead people to it) and ideally, God would clearly make it known who that was to be. But as we know, in and out of the church, egos rule.

IMO, Prophets specific to our church, did kind of stop about Joseph Smith. Maybe prophets are kind of a one-time thing and no succession dynasty or whatever. Yesterday, I thought of how Martin Luther King Jr. was a true prophet - in word and deed. He was called of God, not by a group of people in a religious ceremony but by God. He saw a dream of a better future and actively led people to it - and as Joseph Smith, he was killed in the process."

Are you getting that David? The innuendos abound. "Prophets" in word and deed really stopped with Joseph Smith. It all went downhill from there. Martin Luther King had more of a claim to the title of "Prophet" than did any church leader after Joseph. That would include Pres. Nelson I assume. Thinker is reading right out of the Snuffer playbook. Today's church leadership are pretend Prophets driven by egos. This type of sophistry is repeated over and over again by thinker in post after post. But what do I know. I'm just a judgmental meany trying to drive all the honest in heart truth seekers away from the LDS church. Just ask finrock. He has it all figured out.

From where I'm staying your logic is all wrong here. In your posts you seem intent on just labelling and categorizing people as opposed to discussing, dialoging, or even teaching.

Well, OK then. We now know that in Mark's opinion Thinker is a liar and an apostate and that Thinker isn't a good or true Mormon, presumably like Mark is. The only reason that I can see for this is that Thinker doesn't conform with Mark's particular paradigm, interpretations, and understandings. Fortunately for Mormons of every stripe and color, Mark's paradigm and Mark's opinions are not the standard by which a Mormon is measured and determined in any way.

Wonderful...I'm glad that is out of the way. Looking forward to substantive contributions in the future from you Mark.

-Finrock

[shadow]

From where I'm staying your logic is all wrong here. In your posts you seem intent on just labelling and categorizing people as opposed to discussing, dialoging, or even teaching.


-Finrock

It looks like you're describing yourself and Thinker.

[Finrock]

From where I'm staying your logic is all wrong here. In your posts you seem intent on just labelling and categorizing people as opposed to discussing, dialoging, or even teaching.


-Finrock

It looks like you're describing yourself and Thinker.

Does it? Well, thanks for letting me know how you feel.

-Finrock

[David13]

I think Thinker definitely raises some issues here which should be looked at and considered.
What comes to mind is a group, I forget their name, but their leader/prophet took them all down to Jonestown Guyana, and then had them all drink cyanide laced Kool Aid.
There was a second such group in the Orange County California area that carried out a similar leader influenced mass suicide.

And we also learn that there will be those who preach the philosophy of man, mingled with scripture. But remember, some of them just preach the philosophy of man, with no scripture at all mingled with it.
The perfect example there are those who preach that homosexuality, now, today, with all "our" modern scientific knowledge, is all right, perfectly ok, and just keen or kool.

Or those, even here, who preach that they are members in good standing in the church, and preach ... socialism.

To raise the issue, in question form "does the church give enough to charity" I think is one of the big topics with regard to the church today. And it rightfully should always be, from top to bottom.

But the final answer has to come from the leadership, and then we have to go with it. Or silently suffer it, and raise the issue on an anonymous website, particularly if we don't have a sympathetic Bishop.

It's an essential question, and not apostasy.
dc