Turning a blind eye to modern prophets

[eddie]

The Prophet Lehi in the Book of Mormon tried to warn the people of the destruction coming to Jerusalem and they turned a blind eye. God communicates with His Prophets, always had and always will, the truth of that has been manifested many, many times. Be smart, follow the Prophet.

[drtanner]

These are the fruits of prophets, seers, and revelators. You be the judge.

See comment above

[Finrock]

Just to be clear this is a false accusation that groups many on the forum in a category they do not deserve nor intend to be in and places a misconception for those who may be on the fence. No on is placing these men on a pedestal as you say. We acknowledge them the same as all men, but revere them as prophets the same as any in the scriptures, the same as Joseph Smith. We love them for one reason. They point us to Christ. I want to make sure we are there is no mistaking why we sustain and follow them and would condemn any who would follow them for any other reason.

You are speaking as if you represent all Mormons with this "we" talk. In any case, what I said isn't a false accusation. I've witnessed many people place these men on pedestals that no mortal deserves to be on. They are honored and venerated above other people. They are treated like celebrities by some Mormons. It is a fact that certain segments of Mormons venerate prophets and treat them as celebrities. You may not fall in to this category, but many do. As a life long member, I can attest to this as an absolute fact.

We should love people because they are gods and goddesses, our brothers and sisters, co-equal and co-eternal. Plus, you shouldn't condemn anyone. That is God's job. Judgement is for identification, not condemnation. I understand the phenomenon and you don't just see it in Mormonism so I'm not here to condemn anyone, but facts are facts and I'm not afraid to point out facts even when they don't put Mormons in the best light. It is a natural tendency. You see this type of hero worship/leader veneration/etc. in all sorts of groups and religions through-out the world. But, that it happens and that some people do it, is absolutely, 100% truth.

-Finrock

I watched the announcement and the news conference closely. At no time was the First Presidency on a pedestal.

I've studied the gospel very closely for many years and I've never seen it literally as an olive tree. I wonder why?

In any case, I know that they aren't on a pedestal and that they aren't celebrities. I know that we shouldn't esteem them above that of another and treat them differently than we would a stranger on the street as far as the love we show, the respect we give, etc. But, nevertheless, some Mormons treat them as celebrities and put them on a pedestal. Usually people who do this don't recognize it. They think its normal behavior because its what they are used to and how they were conditioned. They don't even see it as hero worship or veneration. Its what their friends do, its what their parents did, its what is expected by their peers. Its normal.

It happens. It ought not too, but it does. Eventually people need to see things as they are and that is important. People can't progress if they live in denial, with delusions, and/or false concepts.

-Finrock

[Spaced_Out]

Finrock,

We should love people because they are gods and goddesses, our brothers and sisters, co-equal and co-eternal. Plus, you shouldn't condemn anyone. That is God's job. Judgement is for identification, not condemnation. I understand the phenomenon and you don't just see it in Mormonism so I'm not here to condemn anyone, but facts are facts and I'm not afraid to point out facts even when they don't put Mormons in the best light. It is a natural tendency. You see this type of hero worship/leader veneration/etc. in all sorts of groups and religions through-out the world. But, that it happens and that some people do it, is absolutely, 100% truth.

Not afraid...even.????????????????

That is your wheelhouse. Read through your previous posts. This is your favorite soapbox...even if it is false. You regale in it. Nobody talks about putting them on a soapbox... except you to condemn ... even if you deny it to whitewash the fact that you do to TBMs what you regularly accuse us of doing.

Nobody is saying that they should be loved or revered more than idiots, liars and fools. However, I would judge their words and give them more credibility than the words of idiots, liars and fools.

Regards,

George Clay

Just like Jesus was mocked and killed by those who did not want to repent - it is the same with the prophets. They do not teach things pleasing to man but repentance and obedience to God.
One honours them because God honours them by virtue of the calling and position they have. Prophets are the anointed ones the mouthpiece of God on earth. Living by faith in Christ means accepting his Prophets and their direction. The prophets have a special mantel by virtue of their calling, and gifts of the spirit that go with that. The gift of discernment is also given by virtue of their calling, they were also chose as the great and noble ones in the preexistence for their callings. They truly have a full measure of the HG, and one needs to heed their voice as if it was from Christ Himself.


D&C 46:26 And all these gifts come from God, for the benefit of the children of God.
27 And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders unto the church, are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God.
28 And it shall come to pass that he that asketh in Spirit shall receive in Spirit;
29 That unto some it may be given to have all those gifts, that there may be a head, in order that every member may be profited thereby.

[Spaced_Out]

God said to love your neighbor as yourself. God said that love your enemy and do good to those who despitefully use you. God said we ought not to esteem one flesh above another and that He is no respecter of persons.

Can a true follower of Christ really turn a blind eye to any individual, feel resentment towards them, hate them, or not respect them and recognize them as a spirit brother/sister, and treat them as co-equals? Can a true follower of Christ place one man above another man by treating one with adulation, respect, and honor, while treating another with contempt, disdain, and disrespect?

-Finrock

Yes very easily - It is a responsibility of Israel to set a watchman on the tower and see that no ravaging wolf or wolf in sheep's clothing enter the flock.
Every person gets treated equally - no special treatment for any person. If one acts against the doctrine of the church and attempts to break down the Lords Church or his anointed servants - that person should be corrected and if refuses - shunned and cast out... It is not hate it is doing them a favour _ tough love is what is required....

Are you the "watchman on the tower"?
-Finrock

Yes any person who sees evil is to report it. We sustain people in callings and if we know they are unworthy then we are required to let the truth be known. By virtue of calling and other PH responsibilities a person can have extended responsibility - like Bishops etc...

[Finrock]

Also, I forgot to mention a more nefarious phenomenon, but true nonetheless, that some people want to be honored, obeyed without question, and to be placed on a pedestal themselves. Given that this is what they desire as priesthood "leaders" it is what they will do with their priesthood "leaders". They think that to be honored by God means that mortals ought to look up to you, think that you are chosen, are special, and should be listened to and obeyed without question. This offshoot of the veneration phenomenon is even worse than the first kind in my opinion because it has to do with a desire to control agency and to attain unrighteous dominion over others. Now I'm pretty certain that none in the 12 subscribe to this view or have this belief, but you'll be surprised how many in the Church do and who think this is what makes one a "leader" and how leaders ought to be treated. Its how they treat their leaders and its how they want to be treated. In the end its all just silly nonsense, but, so are many other things in mortality. But, since we are on the topic thought I'd point this fact out as well.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

God said to love your neighbor as yourself. God said that love your enemy and do good to those who despitefully use you. God said we ought not to esteem one flesh above another and that He is no respecter of persons.

Can a true follower of Christ really turn a blind eye to any individual, feel resentment towards them, hate them, or not respect them and recognize them as a spirit brother/sister, and treat them as co-equals? Can a true follower of Christ place one man above another man by treating one with adulation, respect, and honor, while treating another with contempt, disdain, and disrespect?

-Finrock

Yes very easily - It is a responsibility of Israel to set a watchman on the tower and see that no ravaging wolf or wolf in sheep's clothing enter the flock.
Every person gets treated equally - no special treatment for any person. If one acts against the doctrine of the church and attempts to break down the Lords Church or his anointed servants - that person should be corrected and if refuses - shunned and cast out... It is not hate it is doing them a favour _ tough love is what is required....

Are you the "watchman on the tower"?
-Finrock

Yes any person who sees evil is to report it. We sustain people in callings and if we know they are unworthy then we are required to let the truth be known. By virtue of calling and other PH responsibilities a person can have extended responsibility - like Bishops etc...

So, any person is a watchman on the tower? The scripture is talking about all people then? I guess that makes me a watchman on the tower, yes?

-Finrock

[Spaced_Out]

So, any person is a watchman on the tower? The scripture is talking about all people then? I guess that makes me a watchman on the tower, yes?

-Finrock

Yes sometimes the wolf can also be a watchman and accidentally bring hidden things to light.
Unless you are in full fellowship of the church no one is listening to the fake watchmen crying wolf when there is none... like many posts on this thread.

[Spaced_Out]

Can a true follower of Christ really turn a blind eye to any individual, feel resentment towards them, hate them, or not respect them and recognize them as a spirit brother/sister, and treat them as co-equals? Can a true follower of Christ place one man above another man by treating one with adulation, respect, and honor, while treating another with contempt, disdain, and disrespect?

-Finrock

So many fake straw man arguments. We are not co-equals - no two people are equal..... This very silly notion all people are equal - some liberal new order rubbish. That you apostates use to deride the prophets...

No two spirits are equal, also refer to my previous post on gifts of the spirit. Yes one is the head and one is not, yes all people get equal opportunity to gain eternal life. Unto whom much is given much is required. Note not everyone is given the same.

I do not treat people as co-equals..... The scriptures says lift up those that are downtrodden and are weak till they can be strengthened. Treat people differently according to their needs. Yes I do treat the Lords anointed ones with greater respect due to their callings and abilities. Say what you want that you have risen up and become equal to the prophets and exceed them in righteousness and also get revelation for the world.

I do also indeed treat people who violate the law of chastity esp paedophiles with extreme disdain and prejudice - they are monsters that need to be controlled. The same with those that preach false doctrine knowingly and look to destroy the faith of others...

Read the scriptures Jesus does not treat people equally - He favours the righteous and chastise those whom He loves, and blesses those that do good. All this hippy stuff we are all equal and everyone gets a prize is delusional idiocy.

Abr 3:18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

[mcusick]

Following the prophet is nothing new! 1 Corinthians 11:1: Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Paul makes a qualified statement. The current lds church has no level of qualification.

I think it would be disingenuous to claim the two messages are the same. Paul actions match his words. Paul brags about standing up against Peter when Peter treated Jews and Gentiles differently. But you are free to correlate Paul's words into the latest iteration of gospel messaging.

You're either in or out. There's no grey area. Your choice

You're either able to exchange and communicate ideas or not.

[LdsMarco]

Following the prophet is nothing new! 1 Corinthians 11:1: Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Paul makes a qualified statement. The current lds church has no level of qualification.

I think it would be disingenuous to claim the two messages are the same. Paul actions match his words. Paul brags about standing up against Peter when Peter treated Jews and Gentiles differently. But you are free to correlate Paul's words into the latest iteration of gospel messaging.

You're either in or out. There's no grey area. Your choice

You're either able to exchange and communicate ideas or not.

Exchange and communicate ideas or not? What is this? Are you serious? I don't believe in speculating or do the what if. The gospel is either true or not. There's no in between.

[Finrock]

Can a true follower of Christ really turn a blind eye to any individual, feel resentment towards them, hate them, or not respect them and recognize them as a spirit brother/sister, and treat them as co-equals? Can a true follower of Christ place one man above another man by treating one with adulation, respect, and honor, while treating another with contempt, disdain, and disrespect?

-Finrock

So many fake straw man arguments. We are not co-equals - no two people are equal..... This very silly notion all people are equal - some liberal new order rubbish. That you apostates use to deride the prophets...

No two spirits are equal, also refer to my previous post on gifts of the spirit. Yes one is the head and one is not, yes all people get equal opportunity to gain eternal life. Unto whom much is given much is required. Note not everyone is given the same.

I do not treat people as co-equals..... The scriptures says lift up those that are downtrodden and are weak till they can be strengthened. Treat people differently according to their needs. Yes I do treat the Lords anointed ones with greater respect due to their callings and abilities. Say what you want that you have risen up and become equal to the prophets and exceed them in righteousness and also get revelation for the world.

I do also indeed treat people who violate the law of chastity esp paedophiles with extreme disdain and prejudice - they are monsters that need to be controlled. The same with those that preach false doctrine knowingly and look to destroy the faith of others...

Read the scriptures Jesus does not treat people equally - He favours the righteous and chastise those whom He loves, and blesses those that do good. All this hippy stuff we are all equal and everyone gets a prize is delusional idiocy.

Abr 3:18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

You seem to be making up your own gospel as the conversation goes along. You are the Watchman referred to in the scriptures, but so is everyone else, then even wolves can be the watchman, but, wait, only those who are in full fellowship in the Church are the watchman (I suppose you also determine who falls in to this category). Somehow all of this just feels like an attempt to rationalize and justify...but what do I know.

And talk about "straw man" arguments, whew!

We say that God Himself is a self-existing being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles. God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it, and it became a living soul. (Refers to the Bible.) How does it read in the Hebrew? It does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says, “God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam’s spirit, and so became a living body.”

The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal [co-eternal] with God himself. I know that my testimony is true (Joseph Smith)

Everything you ever needed to learn about being a disciple of Jesus Christ was taught in primary:

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another

I'm Trying to be Like Jesus

"1. I’m trying to be like Jesus;

I’m following in his ways.

I’m trying to love as he did, in all that I do and say.

At times I am tempted to make a wrong choice,

But I try to listen as the still small voice whispers,


Love one another as Jesus loves you.

Try to show kindness in all that you do.

Be gentle and loving in deed and in thought,

For these are the things Jesus taught.


2. I’m trying to love my neighbor;

I’m learning to serve my friends.

I watch for the day of gladness when Jesus will come again.

I try to remember the lessons he taught.

Then the Holy Spirit enters into my thoughts, saying:

Love one another as Jesus loves you.

Try to show kindness in all that you do.

Be gentle and loving in deed and in thought,

For these are the things Jesus taught."

What to do so that we can be like Jesus?

48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ

Being gentle and loving in deed and in thought can be hard if you don't love yourself or if you are filled with self loathing. Abuse and false traditions can strip a child of a sense of self-love, kindness, gentleness, etc. and this can carry over in to adulthood. Even with the best of circumstance in childhood, sometimes life beats the hell in to us. But, if all you ever felt was the hammer and/or if you were only taught to use a hammer as a child, then that will be the only tool in your arsenal in dealing with people and life's situations, unless a person does something about it as an adult. From experience I can tell that this is no easy feat; to unlearn Satanic methods and tools, and to start using Christ like methods and tools. Personally its an ongoing project/process. But, God is good and "man can change" (President Monson)!

God bless you Spaced_Out! I'll let you have the last word.

-Finrock

[mcusick]

Paul makes a qualified statement. The current lds church has no level of qualification.

I think it would be disingenuous to claim the two messages are the same. Paul actions match his words. Paul brags about standing up against Peter when Peter treated Jews and Gentiles differently. But you are free to correlate Paul's words into the latest iteration of gospel messaging.

You're either in or out. There's no grey area. Your choice

You're either able to exchange and communicate ideas or not.

Exchange and communicate ideas or not? What is this? Are you serious? I don't believe in speculating or do the what if. The gospel is either true or not. There's no in between.

Every single person has a speculative, unique conception of the gospel, and every person believes false ideas. There is no in between.

Even when you sit in the celestial room in the temple, every single person in that room holds incongruous ideas about what the gospel is.

If you read and compare the words of all the presidents of the church, you will see they are not aligned as to what the gospel is.

The New Testament authors do not agree on how to present the gospel and Jesus Christ.

When people can't acknowledge conflicts between "gospel" sources, I do not believe they are reading or listening. In fact, I do not believe they find the "gospel" interesting enough to study and ponder.

[Spaced_Out]

You seem to be making up your own gospel as the conversation goes along. You are the Watchman referred to in the scriptures, but so is everyone else, then even wolves can be the watchman, but, wait, only those who are in full fellowship in the Church are the watchman (I suppose you also determine who falls in to this category). Somehow all of this just feels like an attempt to rationalize and justify...but what do I know.
............................................
Everything you ever needed to learn about being a disciple of Jesus Christ was taught in primary:

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another

"but what do I know. " I am starting to wonder that as well - this discussion is way above your mind set of love everybody and stone the prophets as they are only human. Not all humans are equal.. All did not come down with same level of spiritual advancement.

As to watchmen we all have responsibility towards direct family and every PH holder from Teacher is to be watchman. Then there is the VT & HT programs. On an open forum like this all faithfull members have been asked to engage in LDS discussion and teaching.

Yip still in primary - how does one express that love - it is a life long pursuit to be able to love as He loves. Those that think they have arrived and mastered it you are delusional.

53 The teacher’s duty is to watch over the church always, and be with and strengthen them;
54 And see that there is no iniquity in the church, neither hardness with each other, neither lying, backbiting, nor evil speaking;

[gardener4life]

You're either in or out. There's no grey area. Your choice

You're either able to exchange and communicate ideas or not.

Exchange and communicate ideas or not? What is this? Are you serious? I don't believe in speculating or do the what if. The gospel is either true or not. There's no in between.

Every single person has a speculative, unique conception of the gospel, and every person believes false ideas. There is no in between.

Even when you sit in the celestial room in the temple, every single person in that room holds incongruous ideas about what the gospel is.

If you read and compare the words of all the presidents of the church, you will see they are not aligned as to what the gospel is.

The New Testament authors do not agree on how to present the gospel and Jesus Christ.

When people can't acknowledge conflicts between "gospel" sources, I do not believe they are reading or listening. In fact, I do not believe they find the "gospel" interesting enough to study and ponder.

Sorry but this is a lie.

"Every person believes false ideas..." That is false information. Are you doing this intentionally?

People have unknowns and things they know to be true. It's OK to have some unknowns. And it's OK to have questions and wonder about things.

But it's not OK to be teaching people that their leaders and others don't really know what's true. And your wording is suggestive of that. This is kind of dangerous brother. People don't intentionally support false information, as you stated, or as your interpretation can suggest. You can say they make mistakes, which is true. You can say that they don't know everything. But if you say every person (absolute definition implied) believes and holds false ideas then you have a big problem because you are circulating falsehoods too when you say that.

And saying that people who are living worthy and hold temple recommends and go to the temple hold 'incongruous' ideas is a falsehood. You are basically saying that people don't know what's true and don't lay hold of what's true. It can be interpreted to say there is no truth because truth is everything and nothing and not united. Truth has a specific foundation that you can reach out to and lay hold of. But to say it's incongruent you are saying that anything goes. That's the same as saying you can't have a testimony.

You can see why saying that is problem can't you? And you are saying this publicly instead of in private.

Presidents of the church know the gospel and are as close to the truth as someone can get. So you can't say that they aren't aligned. They are even told to focus on faith in Jesus Christ and repentance as the focus of their teaching in the D&C, for their stewardship as prophets, seers, and revelators. So they are absolutely aligned. They have different viewpoints in what kind of background they come from. But you are circulating falsehoods like crazy in almost every paragraph of your statement.

I'm worried about you doing this. I worry about the influence it would have on youth hearing your statements. I'm not mad at your or condemning. But I hope you can see the potential for harm you are doing.

Sherem and Korihor taught philosophy along the lines like there is no good and evil. Saying that truth is ambiguous and can be anything and nobody really knows it is the same as that.

People absolutely can and do have testimonies. You also don't have to be a prophet, seer, and revelator to have a bedrock testimony and really know what's true. Any person can have this openly. Its free to all who search it out. You don't have to be rich, you don't have to be a successful person of the world. You don't have to have any special station in life. You just have to spend the time to reach out to the Savior.

We live in an era where we can't tell friend from foe within our own groups. It's kind of sad.

[Finrock]

You're either able to exchange and communicate ideas or not.

Exchange and communicate ideas or not? What is this? Are you serious? I don't believe in speculating or do the what if. The gospel is either true or not. There's no in between.

Every single person has a speculative, unique conception of the gospel, and every person believes false ideas. There is no in between.

Even when you sit in the celestial room in the temple, every single person in that room holds incongruous ideas about what the gospel is.

If you read and compare the words of all the presidents of the church, you will see they are not aligned as to what the gospel is.

The New Testament authors do not agree on how to present the gospel and Jesus Christ.

When people can't acknowledge conflicts between "gospel" sources, I do not believe they are reading or listening. In fact, I do not believe they find the "gospel" interesting enough to study and ponder.

Sorry but this is a lie.

"Every person believes false ideas..." That is false information. Are you doing this intentionally?

People have unknowns and things they know to be true. It's OK to have some unknowns. And it's OK to have questions and wonder about things.

But it's not OK to be teaching people that their leaders and others don't really know what's true. And your wording is suggestive of that. This is kind of dangerous brother. People don't intentionally support false information, as you stated, or as your interpretation can suggest. You can say they make mistakes, which is true. You can say that they don't know everything. But if you say every person (absolute definition implied) believes and holds false ideas then you have a big problem because you are circulating falsehoods too when you say that.

And saying that people who are living worthy and hold temple recommends and go to the temple hold 'incongruous' ideas is a falsehood. You are basically saying that people don't know what's true and don't lay hold of what's true. It can be interpreted to say there is no truth because truth is everything and nothing and not united. Truth has a specific foundation that you can reach out to and lay hold of. But to say it's incongruent you are saying that anything goes. That's the same as saying you can't have a testimony.

You can see why saying that is problem can't you? And you are saying this publicly instead of in private.

Presidents of the church know the gospel and are as close to the truth as someone can get. So you can't say that they aren't aligned. They are even told to focus on faith in Jesus Christ and repentance as the focus of their teaching in the D&C, for their stewardship as prophets, seers, and revelators. So they are absolutely aligned. They have different viewpoints in what kind of background they come from. But you are circulating falsehoods like crazy in almost every paragraph of your statement.

I'm worried about you doing this. I worry about the influence it would have on youth hearing your statements. I'm not mad at your or condemning. But I hope you can see the potential for harm you are doing.

Sherem and Korihor taught philosophy along the lines like there is no good and evil. Saying that truth is ambiguous and can be anything and nobody really knows it is the same as that.

People absolutely can and do have testimonies. You also don't have to be a prophet, seer, and revelator to have a bedrock testimony and really know what's true. Any person can have this openly. Its free to all who search it out. You don't have to be rich, you don't have to be a successful person of the world. You don't have to have any special station in life. You just have to spend the time to reach out to the Savior.

We live in an era where we can't tell friend from foe within our own groups. It's kind of sad.

garderner4life,

Saying that individual Mormons understand the gospel differently is not the same thing as saying that "there is no truth because truth is everything and nothing and not united." Truth is what truth is, but, people understand the truth differently. People understand the gospel differently. Even people who belong to the same religion have different understandings about the gospel. This is just common sense and self-evident. Why do you think "discussion" forums exist? Even in this forum you have good and honest people who belong to the same religion yet they disagree or view things differently from each other.

Also, it is also self-evident that various leaders of the Church at various times have understood and have applied the gospel of Jesus Christ differently from each other. There is no controversy here, its just how things are. Its normal and nothing to be afraid of. The only way that I can see this being problematic to a person is if they have an unrealistic view of prophets.

As opposed to having this nice, cookie cutter, everything is in place perspective of the Church and its leaders, the reality is that things are and have been messy and imperfect. And guess what? That is okay! It doesn't mean a thing other than that this Church is full of fallible mortals doing their best to live the gospel as they understand it. Its more harmful to the youth in my view to create this "faith filled narrative" that ignores reality, weaknesses, imperfections, inconsistencies, etc. Sooner or later the youth are going to come across the reality and having been fed this diluted narrative that all things are in order and in place and every leader is in lockstep since the beginning and the prophets are super human or whatever creates disillusionment and is a great catalyst for people leaving the Church. When the perfect illusion comes crashing down they feel betrayed and lied to. Its better to deal with reality as it and to acknowledge that this Church is run by fallible mortals, is made up of fallible mortals, and that this is normal and neither does this imperfection and messiness mean that the Church is false or the gospel is not true.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

Saying that individual Mormons understand the gospel differently is not the same thing as saying that "there is no truth because truth is everything and nothing and not united." Truth is what truth is, but, people understand the truth differently. People understand the gospel differently. Even people who belong to the same religion have different understandings about the gospel. This is just common sense and self-evident. Why do you think "discussion" forums exist? Even in this forum you have good and honest people who belong to the same religion yet they disagree or view things differently from each other.

Saying that individuals understand the gospel differently doesn't make all understandings equal or true. There are true understandings, and there are various understandings that vary from error into heresy. It is easy to fall into the pit by chasing false testimony. Now I know you think that the spirit will help you to discern which is true, and which is false. Just remember, many heretics are convinced that the spirit has testified to the truth of their interpretation.

So if one truly roots their testimony in Christ, they will recognize not only true doctrine, but the true methods that Christ uses to reveal his gospel to his children... and it is through his prophets, not everybody that thinks they have seen a spirit, or had a spiritual experience. Not recognizing this led to heretical chaos in the early Church, and Christ through his prophet Joseph Smith corrected this fallacy. I have a testimony that if Christ wants to reveal a new truth to his children, he will do it though his annotated prophets...

So I will follow Christs instruction, given through Joseph Smith, and listen to the counsel of his prophet, Russell M Nelson, and not follow your rejection of Christ's teachings via Joseph Smith, and follow you into the pit of convincing myself that the Spirit testifies that Amonhi Is a prophet, or that his teachings are true!

Which spirit was that that convinced you as to the Truth of Amonhi's teachings regarding getting Christ to come sit at the foot of your bed and make your C&E made sure?

If you are listening to that spirit, you don't know the difference between a spirit of Satan, and the HG!

Regards,

George Clay

[Spaced_Out]

You're either able to exchange and communicate ideas or not.

Exchange and communicate ideas or not? What is this? Are you serious? I don't believe in speculating or do the what if. The gospel is either true or not. There's no in between.

Every single person has a speculative, unique conception of the gospel, and every person believes false ideas. There is no in between.

Even when you sit in the celestial room in the temple, every single person in that room holds incongruous ideas about what the gospel is.

If you read and compare the words of all the presidents of the church, you will see they are not aligned as to what the gospel is.

The New Testament authors do not agree on how to present the gospel and Jesus Christ.

When people can't acknowledge conflicts between "gospel" sources, I do not believe they are reading or listening. In fact, I do not believe they find the "gospel" interesting enough to study and ponder.

Sorry but this is a lie.

Indeed - one Lord and one Faith and if you are not one you are not mine. All faithful come to a unity of understanding.

Those that live after the natural man and lean unto their own understanding are those that fight against the simple truths of the gospel, and teaching of the prophets.

[Spaced_Out]

Finrock,

Saying that individual Mormons understand the gospel differently is not the same thing as saying that "there is no truth because truth is everything and nothing and not united." Truth is what truth is, but, people understand the truth differently. People understand the gospel differently. Even people who belong to the same religion have different understandings about the gospel. This is just common sense and self-evident. Why do you think "discussion" forums exist? Even in this forum you have good and honest people who belong to the same religion yet they disagree or view things differently from each other.

Saying that individuals understand the gospel differently doesn't make all understandings equal or true. There are true understandings, and there are various understandings that vary from error into heresy. It is easy to fall into the pit by chasing false testimony. Now I know you think that the spirit will help you to discern which is true, and which is false. Just remember, many heretics are convinced that the spirit has testified to the truth of their interpretation.

So if one truly roots their testimony in Christ, they will recognize not only true doctrine, but the true methods that Christ uses to reveal his gospel to his children... and it is through his prophets, not everybody that thinks they have seen a spirit, or had a spiritual experience. Not recognizing this led to heretical chaos in the early Church, and Christ through his prophet Joseph Smith corrected this fallacy. I have a testimony that if Christ wants to reveal a new truth to his children, he will do it though his annotated prophets...

So I will follow Christs instruction, given through Joseph Smith, and listen to the counsel of his prophet, Russell M Nelson, and not follow your rejection of Christ's teachings via Joseph Smith, and follow you into the pit of convincing myself that the Spirit testifies that Amonhi Is a prophet, or that his teachings are true!

Which spirit was that that convinced you as to the Truth of Amonhi's teachings regarding getting Christ to come sit at the foot of your bed and make your C&E made sure?

If you are listening to that spirit, you don't know the difference between a spirit of Satan, and the HG!

Regards,

George Clay

George Clay - good post.

I also disagree that the prophets have taught different doctrines. What they do is purposefully misinterpret what the previous general authorities of the church have taught and manipulate things to mean something different,

Follow the current prophet they will in all situation not lead you astray. Decisions are made by the first presidency and agreed to by all the quorum of twelve - if you disagree with one you disagree with all. People weary God with continual second guessing the leaders of the Church. I have never kept a direction from any general authority and afterwards regretted it. I now have child like faith and know man must obey without question. Yes I do pray how to best be able to keep the directions given. That is safety and security - those that have a spirit of miss trust - in all cases end up regretting it.

[Finrock]

Finrock,

Saying that individual Mormons understand the gospel differently is not the same thing as saying that "there is no truth because truth is everything and nothing and not united." Truth is what truth is, but, people understand the truth differently. People understand the gospel differently. Even people who belong to the same religion have different understandings about the gospel. This is just common sense and self-evident. Why do you think "discussion" forums exist? Even in this forum you have good and honest people who belong to the same religion yet they disagree or view things differently from each other.

Saying that individuals understand the gospel differently doesn't make all understandings equal or true. There are true understandings, and there are various understandings that vary from error into heresy. It is easy to fall into the pit by chasing false testimony. Now I know you think that the spirit will help you to discern which is true, and which is false. Just remember, many heretics are convinced that the spirit has testified to the truth of their interpretation.

So if one truly roots their testimony in Christ, they will recognize not only true doctrine, but the true methods that Christ uses to reveal his gospel to his children... and it is through his prophets, not everybody that thinks they have seen a spirit, or had a spiritual experience. Not recognizing this led to heretical chaos in the early Church, and Christ through his prophet Joseph Smith corrected this fallacy. I have a testimony that if Christ wants to reveal a new truth to his children, he will do it though his annotated prophets...

So I will follow Christs instruction, given through Joseph Smith, and listen to the counsel of his prophet, Russell M Nelson, and not follow your rejection of Christ's teachings via Joseph Smith, and follow you into the pit of convincing myself that the Spirit testifies that Amonhi Is a prophet, or that his teachings are true!

Which spirit was that that convinced you as to the Truth of Amonhi's teachings regarding getting Christ to come sit at the foot of your bed and make your C&E made sure?

If you are listening to that spirit, you don't know the difference between a spirit of Satan, and the HG!

Regards,

George Clay

Huh?

-Finrock

[mcusick]

Exchange and communicate ideas or not? What is this? Are you serious? I don't believe in speculating or do the what if. The gospel is either true or not. There's no in between.

Every single person has a speculative, unique conception of the gospel, and every person believes false ideas. There is no in between.

Even when you sit in the celestial room in the temple, every single person in that room holds incongruous ideas about what the gospel is.

If you read and compare the words of all the presidents of the church, you will see they are not aligned as to what the gospel is.

The New Testament authors do not agree on how to present the gospel and Jesus Christ.

When people can't acknowledge conflicts between "gospel" sources, I do not believe they are reading or listening. In fact, I do not believe they find the "gospel" interesting enough to study and ponder.

Sorry but this is a lie.

Indeed - one Lord and one Faith and if you are not one you are not mine. All faithful come to a unity of understanding.

Those that live after the natural man and lean unto their own understanding are those that fight against the simple truths of the gospel, and teaching of the prophets.

Maybe some people would understand the "one faith" scripture differently than you? Savor the irony.

Maybe people with disparate views on the gospel can be unified? Paul (Romans 4:2-4) and James (James 2:21-24) clearly taught conflicting doctrines about justification. Can they still be of one faith? Apparently it is too controversial to note similar conflicts exist today, so I root my arguments in "dead" prophets.

gardner4life suggested that attempting to grapple with the problematic aspects of gospel sources makes me an antichrist and liar. Why even try? It hurts so much to keep going to church, with dogmatic positions and insults awaiting me from the ninety-nine who need no repentance.

[Spaced_Out]

Maybe some people would understand the "one faith" scripture differently than you? Savor the irony.

Maybe people with disparate views on the gospel can be unified? Paul (Romans 4:2-4) and James (James 2:21-24) clearly taught conflicting doctrines about justification. Can they still be of one faith? Apparently it is too controversial to note similar conflicts exist today, so I root my arguments in "dead" prophets.

gardner4life suggested that attempting to grapple with the problematic aspects of gospel sources makes me an antichrist and liar. Why even try? It hurts so much to keep going to church, with dogmatic positions and insults awaiting me from the ninety-nine who need no repentance.

It is one Lord one faith -I see and hear no controversial or contrary doctrine taught by living oracles of God. In the four standard works/ scriptures I find no conflict.

D&C 6:31 But if they reject not my words, which shall be established by the testimony which shall be given, blessed are they, and then shall ye have joy in the fruit of your labors.
32 Verily, verily, I say unto you, as I said unto my disciples, where two or three are gathered together in my name, as touching one thing, behold, there will I be in the midst of them—even so am I in the midst of you.

Maybe people with disparate views on the gospel can be unified

They are unified by coming into the fold of God and coming to a unity of understanding. There is only one eternal truth - everything else is a lie.

It is never a question of one follows Paul one follows Jesus one follows Enoch one follows Moses. No scripture is of private interpretation - we have prophets that give direction on any matter. This is not a gospel of pick and choose what we like - it is a question of no matter what, but since Hr is not present we follow the prophets who give us God's word. No man can say the follow God if they do not accept his messengers.

As to the 99/1 Yes the one lost needs to be found and brought into the one fold - and brought into unity and fellowship with the saints.

2 Peter 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

D&C 76:98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.
100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

[Spaced_Out]

gardner4life suggested that attempting to grapple with the problematic aspects of gospel sources makes me an antichrist and liar. Why even try? It hurts so much to keep going to church, with dogmatic positions and insults awaiting me from the ninety-nine who need no repentance.

We all have unanswered questions and as we grow spiritually many questions are answered and quit a few new ones arise. In this life we have to walk in faith without a sure knowledge of things prior to making decisions, It is a key purpose of life.

We have faith in Christ atonement and resurrection that if we do good we can be forgiven for our sins and receive a glorious resurrection. We have faith in the Prophets God has called and that they will lead us to righteousness and eternal life....

If we continually look for faults we will find them or more likely invent them. If we don't understand things we continue in faith till our knowledge in those things are perfected. All the general authorities read the scriptures, they are aware of so called issues with church history during the early days of restoration. Supposing conflicts do not break their faith. A person needs to continue in faith and learn line upon line principle upon principle and the truth of these so called conflicts are revealed to us.

I am a convert to the church was baptise at 15y (only member of my family), when the missionaries challenged me to baptism - I thought to myself I will prove this church right or wrong. If the LDS church is wrong no harm done - one can simply just walk away. For example I thought I will pay tithing no matter what and see what happens - if there is any truth in the promised blessings. Many decades later still today I have not been able to prove anything wrong with the LDS church.

My council is to obey Gods will and continue on the path to perfection overcoming the natural man and things of this world and all other things will fall into place. If we do his will we shall know the doctrine, Don't contend with doctrine saying when these things are answered then I will obey...It is always live in faith...

John 7:
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Doctrine and Covenants 11:16
16 Wait a little longer, until you shall have my word, my rock, my church, and my gospel, that you may know of a surety my doctrine.

[gclayjr]

FInrock,

Huh?

Are you saying you don't remember your puppy like acceptance of the teachings of Amonhi,? And your Junkyard dog like fighting against anybody who might suggest that he was wrong? Don't you remember your many long rants about how you will not follow the arm of flesh (the Lord's anointed), that you follow the spirit?

Or that the spirit reveals to you that you don't need physical ordinances either here on this earth or in the next (remember Alvin)? All that matters is some mysterious Sealing by the Holy Spirit.

And don't you see how all of this fits into a consistent pattern to include your insistence that

Saying that individual Mormons understand the gospel differently is not the same thing as saying that "there is no truth because truth is everything and nothing and not united." Truth is what truth is, but, people understand the truth differently. People understand the gospel differently. Even people who belong to the same religion have different understandings about the gospel. This is just common sense and self-evident.

And lack of recognizing any need to filter out heretical interpretations from truthful ones? Or especially any recognition that one should carefully pray to receive those truths revealed through the modern prophets, and a need for skepticism for those heresies spoken by false prophets who get up on a soap box and say that the modern prophets have fallen, listen to me. Christ has revealed to ME the truths YOU should know?

So I don't understand your

Huh?

I always thought your were wrong, but never believed you were so clueless.

Regards,

George Clay

[Finrock]

FInrock,

Huh?

Are you saying you don't remember your puppy like acceptance of the teachings of Amonhi,? And your Junkyard dog like fighting against anybody who might suggest that he was wrong? Don't you remember your many long rants about how you will not follow the arm of flesh (the Lord's anointed), that you follow the spirit?

Or that the spirit reveals to you that you don't need physical ordinances either here on this earth or in the next (remember Alvin)? All that matters is some mysterious Sealing by the Holy Spirit.

And don't you see how all of this fits into a consistent pattern to include your insistence that

Saying that individual Mormons understand the gospel differently is not the same thing as saying that "there is no truth because truth is everything and nothing and not united." Truth is what truth is, but, people understand the truth differently. People understand the gospel differently. Even people who belong to the same religion have different understandings about the gospel. This is just common sense and self-evident.

And lack of recognizing any need to filter out heretical interpretations from truthful ones? Or especially any recognition that one should carefully pray to receive those truths revealed through the modern prophets, and a need for skepticism for those heresies spoken by false prophets who get up on a soap box and say that the modern prophets have fallen, listen to me. Christ has revealed to ME the truths YOU should know?

So I don't understand your

Huh?

I always thought your were wrong, but never believed you were so clueless.

Regards,

George Clay

You're not making any sense to me, George. Your post was...incoherent. I'll respond if/when you say something on topic. So, stay on topic.

-Finrock