Turning a blind eye to modern prophets

[Arenera]

Just to be clear this is a false accusation that groups many on the forum in a category they do not deserve nor intend to be in and places a misconception for those who may be on the fence. No on is placing these men on a pedestal as you say. We acknowledge them the same as all men, but revere them as prophets the same as any in the scriptures, the same as Joseph Smith. We love them for one reason. They point us to Christ. I want to make sure we are there is no mistaking why we sustain and follow them and would condemn any who would follow them for any other reason.

You are speaking as if you represent all Mormons with this "we" talk. In any case, what I said isn't a false accusation. I've witnessed many people place these men on pedestals that no mortal deserves to be on. They are honored and venerated above other people. They are treated like celebrities by some Mormons. It is a fact that certain segments of Mormons venerate prophets and treat them as celebrities. You may not fall in to this category, but many do. As a life long member, I can attest to this as an absolute fact.

We should love people because they are gods and goddesses, our brothers and sisters, co-equal and co-eternal. Plus, you shouldn't condemn anyone. That is God's job. Judgement is for identification, not condemnation. I understand the phenomenon and you don't just see it in Mormonism so I'm not here to condemn anyone, but facts are facts and I'm not afraid to point out facts even when they don't put Mormons in the best light. It is a natural tendency. You see this type of hero worship/leader veneration/etc. in all sorts of groups and religions through-out the world. But, that it happens and that some people do it, is absolutely, 100% truth.

-Finrock

I watched the announcement and the news conference closely. At no time was the First Presidency on a pedestal.

[drtanner]

You know this doesn't do well for for you on your other posts. You wanted people to listen to your ideas on MPP and now mock the idea of prophets. And that also reflects on the people that have been associating with you, because when you openly show your colors theirs are shown too. I don't think some of your friends want to be seen as openly anti-mormon either because its harder to 'teach' if we can see who you guys are.

Shame on you.

You seem to be accusing anyone who doesn't share your veneration of the prophets as "mocking" the prophets or speaking evil of the prophets. Inho is speaking evil because he shares facts and Kingdom of Zion is mocking the prophets because he disagrees with a certain segment of Mormonism that places prophets on a pedestal that no mortal deserves to be on.

Just to be clear this is a false accusation that groups many on the forum in a category they do not deserve nor intend to be in and places a misconception for those who may be on the fence. No on is placing these men on a pedestal as you say. We acknowledge them the same as all men, but revere them as prophets the same as any in the scriptures, the same as Joseph Smith. We love them for one reason. They point us to Christ. I want to make sure we are there is no mistaking why we sustain and follow them and would condemn any who would follow them for any other reason.

You are speaking as if you represent all Mormons with this "we" talk. No just several on the forum that I know express the same feeling as being grouped in this category, but then again if others in the church feel this way I'm sure they would be fine with me being representative of their feelings. In any case, what I said isn't a false accusation. It is for those who don't believe that way. I've witnessed many people place these men on pedestals that no mortal deserves to be on. They are honored and venerated above other people. They are treated like celebrities by some Mormons. It is a fact that certain segments of Mormons venerate prophets and treat them as celebrities. You may not fall in to this category, but many do. As a life long member, I can attest to this as an absolute fact. I just don't see this in my neck of the woods and would be saddened if this was the case. Perhaps if you asked those who you judged to feel this way they would explain it differently and your perception would change

We should love people because they are gods and goddesses, our brothers and sisters, co-equal and co-eternal. I agree Plus, you shouldn't condemn anyone. Definition of Condemn that I am using: to declare to be reprehensible, wrong, or evil usually after weighing evidence I think in this case that is just fine. That is God's job. Judgement is for identification, not condemnation. I understand the phenomenon and you don't just see it in Mormonism so I'm not here to condemn anyone, but facts are facts and I'm not afraid to point out facts even when they don't put Mormons in the best light. It is a natural tendency. You see this type of hero worship/leader veneration/etc. in all sorts of groups and religions through-out the world. But, that it happens and that some people do it, is absolutely, 100% truth. Again to be clear, I love the prophets for one reason, they point individuals to Christ. But the brethren recognize this also and counsel each other about it. This is a great example from Elder Uchtdorf:

"When I was called as a General Authority, I was blessed to be tutored by many of the senior Brethren in the Church. One day I had the opportunity to drive President James E. Faust to a stake conference. During the hours we spent in the car, President Faust took the time to teach me some important principles about my assignment. He explained also how gracious the members of the Church are, especially to General Authorities. He said, “They will treat you very kindly. They will say nice things about you.” He laughed a little and then said, “Dieter, be thankful for this. But don’t you ever inhale it.”

[investigator]

Many claim to be able to discern true prophets, however, most refuse to apply the standard by which the Lord himself has given to be able to discern true prophets. The Lord warned us that there would be false prophets and told us by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matthew 7:
15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

It should not be that difficult to apply the Lords test to Prophets. Do they prophesy? Do do they receive revelation of things not previously know? Can they "see" into the past and future and and translate sacred texts?

The Lord has even made it easier for Presidents of the Church, providing a standard by which to ascertain if they have received the gifts given by God to Prophets, Seers, Revelators and Translators.

D&C 107:
91 And again, the duty of the President of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church, and to be like unto Moses—
92 Behold, here is wisdom; yea, to be a seer, a revelator, a translator, and a prophet, having all the gifts of God which he bestows upon the head of the church.

One ordained or set apart to be the President of the Church does not receive these gifts with the ordination or setting apart. If he did, it would be easily determined as he would be using the Urim and Thummim to translate sacred texts, which no “prophet” has done since Joseph Smith. It is the duty of the President of the Church of receive these gifts from God. It is then our duty to know them by the fruits of them having received and demonstrated these gifts. You will notice that the revelation uses the future tense “to be” not “He is” a seer, a revelator… it is something he is to receive from God. A study of the fruits of Moses would be beneficial in ascertaining if the President of the Church were exhibiting the fruits of Moses.

Lest we are still wondering what the fruits of a prophet, seer, revelator, and translator are. The most correct book on earth, the one which, if we abide by it’s precepts, will lead us closer to God than any other book, makes it very clear what to expect the fruits of a true prophet, seer, revelator and translator to be.

Mosiah 8:
13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer.
14 And behold, the king of the people who are in the land of Zarahemla is the man that is commanded to do these things, and who has this high gift from God.
15 And the king said that a seer is greater than a prophet.
16 And Ammon said that a seer is a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have, except he should possess the power of God, which no man can; yet a man may have great power given him from God.
17 But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.

So, using the standard provided by the Lord in the most correct book, lets see what we would expect the evidence of fruits of being a prophet, seer, revelator, and translator would be.

Let’s tackle the most obvious one first. This is most likely why the term translator has been dropped from the title we have given to those called to the twelve because it is so easily observable. Is there evidence that the PSR of today use the gift of translation as described in verse 13?

Next seer, revelator, prophet. Is there any evidence that the PSR of today are able to know of things which are past, and which are to come? Do they reveal all things or make secret things manifest, make hidden things come to light, make things which are not known to be known, which other wise could not be known? Through their faith do they work mighty miracles?

These are the fruits of prophets, seers, and revelators. You be the judge.

[Arenera]

President Nelson is Christ's Prophet. Sorry for you folks that can't, won't, don't accept that.

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

We should love people because they are gods and goddesses, our brothers and sisters, co-equal and co-eternal. Plus, you shouldn't condemn anyone. That is God's job. Judgement is for identification, not condemnation. I understand the phenomenon and you don't just see it in Mormonism so I'm not here to condemn anyone, but facts are facts and I'm not afraid to point out facts even when they don't put Mormons in the best light. It is a natural tendency. You see this type of hero worship/leader veneration/etc. in all sorts of groups and religions through-out the world. But, that it happens and that some people do it, is absolutely, 100% truth.

Not afraid...even.????????????????

That is your wheelhouse. Read through your previous posts. This is your favorite soapbox...even if it is false. You regale in it. Nobody talks about putting them on a soapbox... except you to condemn ... even if you deny it to whitewash the fact that you do to TBMs what you regularly accuse us of doing.

Nobody is saying that they should be loved or revered more than idiots, liars and fools. However, I would judge their words and give them more credibility than the words of idiots, liars and fools.

Regards,

George Clay

[eddie]

The Prophet Lehi in the Book of Mormon tried to warn the people of the destruction coming to Jerusalem and they turned a blind eye. God communicates with His Prophets, always had and always will, the truth of that has been manifested many, many times. Be smart, follow the Prophet.

[drtanner]

These are the fruits of prophets, seers, and revelators. You be the judge.

See comment above

[Finrock]

Just to be clear this is a false accusation that groups many on the forum in a category they do not deserve nor intend to be in and places a misconception for those who may be on the fence. No on is placing these men on a pedestal as you say. We acknowledge them the same as all men, but revere them as prophets the same as any in the scriptures, the same as Joseph Smith. We love them for one reason. They point us to Christ. I want to make sure we are there is no mistaking why we sustain and follow them and would condemn any who would follow them for any other reason.

You are speaking as if you represent all Mormons with this "we" talk. In any case, what I said isn't a false accusation. I've witnessed many people place these men on pedestals that no mortal deserves to be on. They are honored and venerated above other people. They are treated like celebrities by some Mormons. It is a fact that certain segments of Mormons venerate prophets and treat them as celebrities. You may not fall in to this category, but many do. As a life long member, I can attest to this as an absolute fact.

We should love people because they are gods and goddesses, our brothers and sisters, co-equal and co-eternal. Plus, you shouldn't condemn anyone. That is God's job. Judgement is for identification, not condemnation. I understand the phenomenon and you don't just see it in Mormonism so I'm not here to condemn anyone, but facts are facts and I'm not afraid to point out facts even when they don't put Mormons in the best light. It is a natural tendency. You see this type of hero worship/leader veneration/etc. in all sorts of groups and religions through-out the world. But, that it happens and that some people do it, is absolutely, 100% truth.

-Finrock

I watched the announcement and the news conference closely. At no time was the First Presidency on a pedestal.

I've studied the gospel very closely for many years and I've never seen it literally as an olive tree. I wonder why?

In any case, I know that they aren't on a pedestal and that they aren't celebrities. I know that we shouldn't esteem them above that of another and treat them differently than we would a stranger on the street as far as the love we show, the respect we give, etc. But, nevertheless, some Mormons treat them as celebrities and put them on a pedestal. Usually people who do this don't recognize it. They think its normal behavior because its what they are used to and how they were conditioned. They don't even see it as hero worship or veneration. Its what their friends do, its what their parents did, its what is expected by their peers. Its normal.

It happens. It ought not too, but it does. Eventually people need to see things as they are and that is important. People can't progress if they live in denial, with delusions, and/or false concepts.

-Finrock

[Spaced_Out]

Finrock,

We should love people because they are gods and goddesses, our brothers and sisters, co-equal and co-eternal. Plus, you shouldn't condemn anyone. That is God's job. Judgement is for identification, not condemnation. I understand the phenomenon and you don't just see it in Mormonism so I'm not here to condemn anyone, but facts are facts and I'm not afraid to point out facts even when they don't put Mormons in the best light. It is a natural tendency. You see this type of hero worship/leader veneration/etc. in all sorts of groups and religions through-out the world. But, that it happens and that some people do it, is absolutely, 100% truth.

Not afraid...even.????????????????

That is your wheelhouse. Read through your previous posts. This is your favorite soapbox...even if it is false. You regale in it. Nobody talks about putting them on a soapbox... except you to condemn ... even if you deny it to whitewash the fact that you do to TBMs what you regularly accuse us of doing.

Nobody is saying that they should be loved or revered more than idiots, liars and fools. However, I would judge their words and give them more credibility than the words of idiots, liars and fools.

Regards,

George Clay

Just like Jesus was mocked and killed by those who did not want to repent - it is the same with the prophets. They do not teach things pleasing to man but repentance and obedience to God.
One honours them because God honours them by virtue of the calling and position they have. Prophets are the anointed ones the mouthpiece of God on earth. Living by faith in Christ means accepting his Prophets and their direction. The prophets have a special mantel by virtue of their calling, and gifts of the spirit that go with that. The gift of discernment is also given by virtue of their calling, they were also chose as the great and noble ones in the preexistence for their callings. They truly have a full measure of the HG, and one needs to heed their voice as if it was from Christ Himself.


D&C 46:26 And all these gifts come from God, for the benefit of the children of God.
27 And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders unto the church, are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God.
28 And it shall come to pass that he that asketh in Spirit shall receive in Spirit;
29 That unto some it may be given to have all those gifts, that there may be a head, in order that every member may be profited thereby.

[Spaced_Out]

God said to love your neighbor as yourself. God said that love your enemy and do good to those who despitefully use you. God said we ought not to esteem one flesh above another and that He is no respecter of persons.

Can a true follower of Christ really turn a blind eye to any individual, feel resentment towards them, hate them, or not respect them and recognize them as a spirit brother/sister, and treat them as co-equals? Can a true follower of Christ place one man above another man by treating one with adulation, respect, and honor, while treating another with contempt, disdain, and disrespect?

-Finrock

Yes very easily - It is a responsibility of Israel to set a watchman on the tower and see that no ravaging wolf or wolf in sheep's clothing enter the flock.
Every person gets treated equally - no special treatment for any person. If one acts against the doctrine of the church and attempts to break down the Lords Church or his anointed servants - that person should be corrected and if refuses - shunned and cast out... It is not hate it is doing them a favour _ tough love is what is required....

Are you the "watchman on the tower"?
-Finrock

Yes any person who sees evil is to report it. We sustain people in callings and if we know they are unworthy then we are required to let the truth be known. By virtue of calling and other PH responsibilities a person can have extended responsibility - like Bishops etc...

[Finrock]

Also, I forgot to mention a more nefarious phenomenon, but true nonetheless, that some people want to be honored, obeyed without question, and to be placed on a pedestal themselves. Given that this is what they desire as priesthood "leaders" it is what they will do with their priesthood "leaders". They think that to be honored by God means that mortals ought to look up to you, think that you are chosen, are special, and should be listened to and obeyed without question. This offshoot of the veneration phenomenon is even worse than the first kind in my opinion because it has to do with a desire to control agency and to attain unrighteous dominion over others. Now I'm pretty certain that none in the 12 subscribe to this view or have this belief, but you'll be surprised how many in the Church do and who think this is what makes one a "leader" and how leaders ought to be treated. Its how they treat their leaders and its how they want to be treated. In the end its all just silly nonsense, but, so are many other things in mortality. But, since we are on the topic thought I'd point this fact out as well.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

God said to love your neighbor as yourself. God said that love your enemy and do good to those who despitefully use you. God said we ought not to esteem one flesh above another and that He is no respecter of persons.

Can a true follower of Christ really turn a blind eye to any individual, feel resentment towards them, hate them, or not respect them and recognize them as a spirit brother/sister, and treat them as co-equals? Can a true follower of Christ place one man above another man by treating one with adulation, respect, and honor, while treating another with contempt, disdain, and disrespect?

-Finrock

Yes very easily - It is a responsibility of Israel to set a watchman on the tower and see that no ravaging wolf or wolf in sheep's clothing enter the flock.
Every person gets treated equally - no special treatment for any person. If one acts against the doctrine of the church and attempts to break down the Lords Church or his anointed servants - that person should be corrected and if refuses - shunned and cast out... It is not hate it is doing them a favour _ tough love is what is required....

Are you the "watchman on the tower"?
-Finrock

Yes any person who sees evil is to report it. We sustain people in callings and if we know they are unworthy then we are required to let the truth be known. By virtue of calling and other PH responsibilities a person can have extended responsibility - like Bishops etc...

So, any person is a watchman on the tower? The scripture is talking about all people then? I guess that makes me a watchman on the tower, yes?

-Finrock

[Spaced_Out]

So, any person is a watchman on the tower? The scripture is talking about all people then? I guess that makes me a watchman on the tower, yes?

-Finrock

Yes sometimes the wolf can also be a watchman and accidentally bring hidden things to light.
Unless you are in full fellowship of the church no one is listening to the fake watchmen crying wolf when there is none... like many posts on this thread.

[Spaced_Out]

Can a true follower of Christ really turn a blind eye to any individual, feel resentment towards them, hate them, or not respect them and recognize them as a spirit brother/sister, and treat them as co-equals? Can a true follower of Christ place one man above another man by treating one with adulation, respect, and honor, while treating another with contempt, disdain, and disrespect?

-Finrock

So many fake straw man arguments. We are not co-equals - no two people are equal..... This very silly notion all people are equal - some liberal new order rubbish. That you apostates use to deride the prophets...

No two spirits are equal, also refer to my previous post on gifts of the spirit. Yes one is the head and one is not, yes all people get equal opportunity to gain eternal life. Unto whom much is given much is required. Note not everyone is given the same.

I do not treat people as co-equals..... The scriptures says lift up those that are downtrodden and are weak till they can be strengthened. Treat people differently according to their needs. Yes I do treat the Lords anointed ones with greater respect due to their callings and abilities. Say what you want that you have risen up and become equal to the prophets and exceed them in righteousness and also get revelation for the world.

I do also indeed treat people who violate the law of chastity esp paedophiles with extreme disdain and prejudice - they are monsters that need to be controlled. The same with those that preach false doctrine knowingly and look to destroy the faith of others...

Read the scriptures Jesus does not treat people equally - He favours the righteous and chastise those whom He loves, and blesses those that do good. All this hippy stuff we are all equal and everyone gets a prize is delusional idiocy.

Abr 3:18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

[mcusick]

Following the prophet is nothing new! 1 Corinthians 11:1: Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Paul makes a qualified statement. The current lds church has no level of qualification.

I think it would be disingenuous to claim the two messages are the same. Paul actions match his words. Paul brags about standing up against Peter when Peter treated Jews and Gentiles differently. But you are free to correlate Paul's words into the latest iteration of gospel messaging.

You're either in or out. There's no grey area. Your choice

You're either able to exchange and communicate ideas or not.

[LdsMarco]

Following the prophet is nothing new! 1 Corinthians 11:1: Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Paul makes a qualified statement. The current lds church has no level of qualification.

I think it would be disingenuous to claim the two messages are the same. Paul actions match his words. Paul brags about standing up against Peter when Peter treated Jews and Gentiles differently. But you are free to correlate Paul's words into the latest iteration of gospel messaging.

You're either in or out. There's no grey area. Your choice

You're either able to exchange and communicate ideas or not.

Exchange and communicate ideas or not? What is this? Are you serious? I don't believe in speculating or do the what if. The gospel is either true or not. There's no in between.

[Finrock]

Can a true follower of Christ really turn a blind eye to any individual, feel resentment towards them, hate them, or not respect them and recognize them as a spirit brother/sister, and treat them as co-equals? Can a true follower of Christ place one man above another man by treating one with adulation, respect, and honor, while treating another with contempt, disdain, and disrespect?

-Finrock

So many fake straw man arguments. We are not co-equals - no two people are equal..... This very silly notion all people are equal - some liberal new order rubbish. That you apostates use to deride the prophets...

No two spirits are equal, also refer to my previous post on gifts of the spirit. Yes one is the head and one is not, yes all people get equal opportunity to gain eternal life. Unto whom much is given much is required. Note not everyone is given the same.

I do not treat people as co-equals..... The scriptures says lift up those that are downtrodden and are weak till they can be strengthened. Treat people differently according to their needs. Yes I do treat the Lords anointed ones with greater respect due to their callings and abilities. Say what you want that you have risen up and become equal to the prophets and exceed them in righteousness and also get revelation for the world.

I do also indeed treat people who violate the law of chastity esp paedophiles with extreme disdain and prejudice - they are monsters that need to be controlled. The same with those that preach false doctrine knowingly and look to destroy the faith of others...

Read the scriptures Jesus does not treat people equally - He favours the righteous and chastise those whom He loves, and blesses those that do good. All this hippy stuff we are all equal and everyone gets a prize is delusional idiocy.

Abr 3:18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

You seem to be making up your own gospel as the conversation goes along. You are the Watchman referred to in the scriptures, but so is everyone else, then even wolves can be the watchman, but, wait, only those who are in full fellowship in the Church are the watchman (I suppose you also determine who falls in to this category). Somehow all of this just feels like an attempt to rationalize and justify...but what do I know.

And talk about "straw man" arguments, whew!

We say that God Himself is a self-existing being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles. God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it, and it became a living soul. (Refers to the Bible.) How does it read in the Hebrew? It does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says, “God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam’s spirit, and so became a living body.”

The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal [co-eternal] with God himself. I know that my testimony is true (Joseph Smith)

Everything you ever needed to learn about being a disciple of Jesus Christ was taught in primary:

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another

I'm Trying to be Like Jesus

"1. I’m trying to be like Jesus;

I’m following in his ways.

I’m trying to love as he did, in all that I do and say.

At times I am tempted to make a wrong choice,

But I try to listen as the still small voice whispers,


Love one another as Jesus loves you.

Try to show kindness in all that you do.

Be gentle and loving in deed and in thought,

For these are the things Jesus taught.


2. I’m trying to love my neighbor;

I’m learning to serve my friends.

I watch for the day of gladness when Jesus will come again.

I try to remember the lessons he taught.

Then the Holy Spirit enters into my thoughts, saying:

Love one another as Jesus loves you.

Try to show kindness in all that you do.

Be gentle and loving in deed and in thought,

For these are the things Jesus taught."

What to do so that we can be like Jesus?

48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ

Being gentle and loving in deed and in thought can be hard if you don't love yourself or if you are filled with self loathing. Abuse and false traditions can strip a child of a sense of self-love, kindness, gentleness, etc. and this can carry over in to adulthood. Even with the best of circumstance in childhood, sometimes life beats the hell in to us. But, if all you ever felt was the hammer and/or if you were only taught to use a hammer as a child, then that will be the only tool in your arsenal in dealing with people and life's situations, unless a person does something about it as an adult. From experience I can tell that this is no easy feat; to unlearn Satanic methods and tools, and to start using Christ like methods and tools. Personally its an ongoing project/process. But, God is good and "man can change" (President Monson)!

God bless you Spaced_Out! I'll let you have the last word.

-Finrock

[mcusick]

Paul makes a qualified statement. The current lds church has no level of qualification.

I think it would be disingenuous to claim the two messages are the same. Paul actions match his words. Paul brags about standing up against Peter when Peter treated Jews and Gentiles differently. But you are free to correlate Paul's words into the latest iteration of gospel messaging.

You're either in or out. There's no grey area. Your choice

You're either able to exchange and communicate ideas or not.

Exchange and communicate ideas or not? What is this? Are you serious? I don't believe in speculating or do the what if. The gospel is either true or not. There's no in between.

Every single person has a speculative, unique conception of the gospel, and every person believes false ideas. There is no in between.

Even when you sit in the celestial room in the temple, every single person in that room holds incongruous ideas about what the gospel is.

If you read and compare the words of all the presidents of the church, you will see they are not aligned as to what the gospel is.

The New Testament authors do not agree on how to present the gospel and Jesus Christ.

When people can't acknowledge conflicts between "gospel" sources, I do not believe they are reading or listening. In fact, I do not believe they find the "gospel" interesting enough to study and ponder.

[Spaced_Out]

You seem to be making up your own gospel as the conversation goes along. You are the Watchman referred to in the scriptures, but so is everyone else, then even wolves can be the watchman, but, wait, only those who are in full fellowship in the Church are the watchman (I suppose you also determine who falls in to this category). Somehow all of this just feels like an attempt to rationalize and justify...but what do I know.
............................................
Everything you ever needed to learn about being a disciple of Jesus Christ was taught in primary:

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another

"but what do I know. " I am starting to wonder that as well - this discussion is way above your mind set of love everybody and stone the prophets as they are only human. Not all humans are equal.. All did not come down with same level of spiritual advancement.

As to watchmen we all have responsibility towards direct family and every PH holder from Teacher is to be watchman. Then there is the VT & HT programs. On an open forum like this all faithfull members have been asked to engage in LDS discussion and teaching.

Yip still in primary - how does one express that love - it is a life long pursuit to be able to love as He loves. Those that think they have arrived and mastered it you are delusional.

53 The teacher’s duty is to watch over the church always, and be with and strengthen them;
54 And see that there is no iniquity in the church, neither hardness with each other, neither lying, backbiting, nor evil speaking;

[gardener4life]

You're either in or out. There's no grey area. Your choice

You're either able to exchange and communicate ideas or not.

Exchange and communicate ideas or not? What is this? Are you serious? I don't believe in speculating or do the what if. The gospel is either true or not. There's no in between.

Every single person has a speculative, unique conception of the gospel, and every person believes false ideas. There is no in between.

Even when you sit in the celestial room in the temple, every single person in that room holds incongruous ideas about what the gospel is.

If you read and compare the words of all the presidents of the church, you will see they are not aligned as to what the gospel is.

The New Testament authors do not agree on how to present the gospel and Jesus Christ.

When people can't acknowledge conflicts between "gospel" sources, I do not believe they are reading or listening. In fact, I do not believe they find the "gospel" interesting enough to study and ponder.

Sorry but this is a lie.

"Every person believes false ideas..." That is false information. Are you doing this intentionally?

People have unknowns and things they know to be true. It's OK to have some unknowns. And it's OK to have questions and wonder about things.

But it's not OK to be teaching people that their leaders and others don't really know what's true. And your wording is suggestive of that. This is kind of dangerous brother. People don't intentionally support false information, as you stated, or as your interpretation can suggest. You can say they make mistakes, which is true. You can say that they don't know everything. But if you say every person (absolute definition implied) believes and holds false ideas then you have a big problem because you are circulating falsehoods too when you say that.

And saying that people who are living worthy and hold temple recommends and go to the temple hold 'incongruous' ideas is a falsehood. You are basically saying that people don't know what's true and don't lay hold of what's true. It can be interpreted to say there is no truth because truth is everything and nothing and not united. Truth has a specific foundation that you can reach out to and lay hold of. But to say it's incongruent you are saying that anything goes. That's the same as saying you can't have a testimony.

You can see why saying that is problem can't you? And you are saying this publicly instead of in private.

Presidents of the church know the gospel and are as close to the truth as someone can get. So you can't say that they aren't aligned. They are even told to focus on faith in Jesus Christ and repentance as the focus of their teaching in the D&C, for their stewardship as prophets, seers, and revelators. So they are absolutely aligned. They have different viewpoints in what kind of background they come from. But you are circulating falsehoods like crazy in almost every paragraph of your statement.

I'm worried about you doing this. I worry about the influence it would have on youth hearing your statements. I'm not mad at your or condemning. But I hope you can see the potential for harm you are doing.

Sherem and Korihor taught philosophy along the lines like there is no good and evil. Saying that truth is ambiguous and can be anything and nobody really knows it is the same as that.

People absolutely can and do have testimonies. You also don't have to be a prophet, seer, and revelator to have a bedrock testimony and really know what's true. Any person can have this openly. Its free to all who search it out. You don't have to be rich, you don't have to be a successful person of the world. You don't have to have any special station in life. You just have to spend the time to reach out to the Savior.

We live in an era where we can't tell friend from foe within our own groups. It's kind of sad.

[Finrock]

You're either able to exchange and communicate ideas or not.

Exchange and communicate ideas or not? What is this? Are you serious? I don't believe in speculating or do the what if. The gospel is either true or not. There's no in between.

Every single person has a speculative, unique conception of the gospel, and every person believes false ideas. There is no in between.

Even when you sit in the celestial room in the temple, every single person in that room holds incongruous ideas about what the gospel is.

If you read and compare the words of all the presidents of the church, you will see they are not aligned as to what the gospel is.

The New Testament authors do not agree on how to present the gospel and Jesus Christ.

When people can't acknowledge conflicts between "gospel" sources, I do not believe they are reading or listening. In fact, I do not believe they find the "gospel" interesting enough to study and ponder.

Sorry but this is a lie.

"Every person believes false ideas..." That is false information. Are you doing this intentionally?

People have unknowns and things they know to be true. It's OK to have some unknowns. And it's OK to have questions and wonder about things.

But it's not OK to be teaching people that their leaders and others don't really know what's true. And your wording is suggestive of that. This is kind of dangerous brother. People don't intentionally support false information, as you stated, or as your interpretation can suggest. You can say they make mistakes, which is true. You can say that they don't know everything. But if you say every person (absolute definition implied) believes and holds false ideas then you have a big problem because you are circulating falsehoods too when you say that.

And saying that people who are living worthy and hold temple recommends and go to the temple hold 'incongruous' ideas is a falsehood. You are basically saying that people don't know what's true and don't lay hold of what's true. It can be interpreted to say there is no truth because truth is everything and nothing and not united. Truth has a specific foundation that you can reach out to and lay hold of. But to say it's incongruent you are saying that anything goes. That's the same as saying you can't have a testimony.

You can see why saying that is problem can't you? And you are saying this publicly instead of in private.

Presidents of the church know the gospel and are as close to the truth as someone can get. So you can't say that they aren't aligned. They are even told to focus on faith in Jesus Christ and repentance as the focus of their teaching in the D&C, for their stewardship as prophets, seers, and revelators. So they are absolutely aligned. They have different viewpoints in what kind of background they come from. But you are circulating falsehoods like crazy in almost every paragraph of your statement.

I'm worried about you doing this. I worry about the influence it would have on youth hearing your statements. I'm not mad at your or condemning. But I hope you can see the potential for harm you are doing.

Sherem and Korihor taught philosophy along the lines like there is no good and evil. Saying that truth is ambiguous and can be anything and nobody really knows it is the same as that.

People absolutely can and do have testimonies. You also don't have to be a prophet, seer, and revelator to have a bedrock testimony and really know what's true. Any person can have this openly. Its free to all who search it out. You don't have to be rich, you don't have to be a successful person of the world. You don't have to have any special station in life. You just have to spend the time to reach out to the Savior.

We live in an era where we can't tell friend from foe within our own groups. It's kind of sad.

garderner4life,

Saying that individual Mormons understand the gospel differently is not the same thing as saying that "there is no truth because truth is everything and nothing and not united." Truth is what truth is, but, people understand the truth differently. People understand the gospel differently. Even people who belong to the same religion have different understandings about the gospel. This is just common sense and self-evident. Why do you think "discussion" forums exist? Even in this forum you have good and honest people who belong to the same religion yet they disagree or view things differently from each other.

Also, it is also self-evident that various leaders of the Church at various times have understood and have applied the gospel of Jesus Christ differently from each other. There is no controversy here, its just how things are. Its normal and nothing to be afraid of. The only way that I can see this being problematic to a person is if they have an unrealistic view of prophets.

As opposed to having this nice, cookie cutter, everything is in place perspective of the Church and its leaders, the reality is that things are and have been messy and imperfect. And guess what? That is okay! It doesn't mean a thing other than that this Church is full of fallible mortals doing their best to live the gospel as they understand it. Its more harmful to the youth in my view to create this "faith filled narrative" that ignores reality, weaknesses, imperfections, inconsistencies, etc. Sooner or later the youth are going to come across the reality and having been fed this diluted narrative that all things are in order and in place and every leader is in lockstep since the beginning and the prophets are super human or whatever creates disillusionment and is a great catalyst for people leaving the Church. When the perfect illusion comes crashing down they feel betrayed and lied to. Its better to deal with reality as it and to acknowledge that this Church is run by fallible mortals, is made up of fallible mortals, and that this is normal and neither does this imperfection and messiness mean that the Church is false or the gospel is not true.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

Saying that individual Mormons understand the gospel differently is not the same thing as saying that "there is no truth because truth is everything and nothing and not united." Truth is what truth is, but, people understand the truth differently. People understand the gospel differently. Even people who belong to the same religion have different understandings about the gospel. This is just common sense and self-evident. Why do you think "discussion" forums exist? Even in this forum you have good and honest people who belong to the same religion yet they disagree or view things differently from each other.

Saying that individuals understand the gospel differently doesn't make all understandings equal or true. There are true understandings, and there are various understandings that vary from error into heresy. It is easy to fall into the pit by chasing false testimony. Now I know you think that the spirit will help you to discern which is true, and which is false. Just remember, many heretics are convinced that the spirit has testified to the truth of their interpretation.

So if one truly roots their testimony in Christ, they will recognize not only true doctrine, but the true methods that Christ uses to reveal his gospel to his children... and it is through his prophets, not everybody that thinks they have seen a spirit, or had a spiritual experience. Not recognizing this led to heretical chaos in the early Church, and Christ through his prophet Joseph Smith corrected this fallacy. I have a testimony that if Christ wants to reveal a new truth to his children, he will do it though his annotated prophets...

So I will follow Christs instruction, given through Joseph Smith, and listen to the counsel of his prophet, Russell M Nelson, and not follow your rejection of Christ's teachings via Joseph Smith, and follow you into the pit of convincing myself that the Spirit testifies that Amonhi Is a prophet, or that his teachings are true!

Which spirit was that that convinced you as to the Truth of Amonhi's teachings regarding getting Christ to come sit at the foot of your bed and make your C&E made sure?

If you are listening to that spirit, you don't know the difference between a spirit of Satan, and the HG!

Regards,

George Clay

[Spaced_Out]

You're either able to exchange and communicate ideas or not.

Exchange and communicate ideas or not? What is this? Are you serious? I don't believe in speculating or do the what if. The gospel is either true or not. There's no in between.

Every single person has a speculative, unique conception of the gospel, and every person believes false ideas. There is no in between.

Even when you sit in the celestial room in the temple, every single person in that room holds incongruous ideas about what the gospel is.

If you read and compare the words of all the presidents of the church, you will see they are not aligned as to what the gospel is.

The New Testament authors do not agree on how to present the gospel and Jesus Christ.

When people can't acknowledge conflicts between "gospel" sources, I do not believe they are reading or listening. In fact, I do not believe they find the "gospel" interesting enough to study and ponder.

Sorry but this is a lie.

Indeed - one Lord and one Faith and if you are not one you are not mine. All faithful come to a unity of understanding.

Those that live after the natural man and lean unto their own understanding are those that fight against the simple truths of the gospel, and teaching of the prophets.

[Spaced_Out]

Finrock,

Saying that individual Mormons understand the gospel differently is not the same thing as saying that "there is no truth because truth is everything and nothing and not united." Truth is what truth is, but, people understand the truth differently. People understand the gospel differently. Even people who belong to the same religion have different understandings about the gospel. This is just common sense and self-evident. Why do you think "discussion" forums exist? Even in this forum you have good and honest people who belong to the same religion yet they disagree or view things differently from each other.

Saying that individuals understand the gospel differently doesn't make all understandings equal or true. There are true understandings, and there are various understandings that vary from error into heresy. It is easy to fall into the pit by chasing false testimony. Now I know you think that the spirit will help you to discern which is true, and which is false. Just remember, many heretics are convinced that the spirit has testified to the truth of their interpretation.

So if one truly roots their testimony in Christ, they will recognize not only true doctrine, but the true methods that Christ uses to reveal his gospel to his children... and it is through his prophets, not everybody that thinks they have seen a spirit, or had a spiritual experience. Not recognizing this led to heretical chaos in the early Church, and Christ through his prophet Joseph Smith corrected this fallacy. I have a testimony that if Christ wants to reveal a new truth to his children, he will do it though his annotated prophets...

So I will follow Christs instruction, given through Joseph Smith, and listen to the counsel of his prophet, Russell M Nelson, and not follow your rejection of Christ's teachings via Joseph Smith, and follow you into the pit of convincing myself that the Spirit testifies that Amonhi Is a prophet, or that his teachings are true!

Which spirit was that that convinced you as to the Truth of Amonhi's teachings regarding getting Christ to come sit at the foot of your bed and make your C&E made sure?

If you are listening to that spirit, you don't know the difference between a spirit of Satan, and the HG!

Regards,

George Clay

George Clay - good post.

I also disagree that the prophets have taught different doctrines. What they do is purposefully misinterpret what the previous general authorities of the church have taught and manipulate things to mean something different,

Follow the current prophet they will in all situation not lead you astray. Decisions are made by the first presidency and agreed to by all the quorum of twelve - if you disagree with one you disagree with all. People weary God with continual second guessing the leaders of the Church. I have never kept a direction from any general authority and afterwards regretted it. I now have child like faith and know man must obey without question. Yes I do pray how to best be able to keep the directions given. That is safety and security - those that have a spirit of miss trust - in all cases end up regretting it.

[Finrock]

Finrock,

Saying that individual Mormons understand the gospel differently is not the same thing as saying that "there is no truth because truth is everything and nothing and not united." Truth is what truth is, but, people understand the truth differently. People understand the gospel differently. Even people who belong to the same religion have different understandings about the gospel. This is just common sense and self-evident. Why do you think "discussion" forums exist? Even in this forum you have good and honest people who belong to the same religion yet they disagree or view things differently from each other.

Saying that individuals understand the gospel differently doesn't make all understandings equal or true. There are true understandings, and there are various understandings that vary from error into heresy. It is easy to fall into the pit by chasing false testimony. Now I know you think that the spirit will help you to discern which is true, and which is false. Just remember, many heretics are convinced that the spirit has testified to the truth of their interpretation.

So if one truly roots their testimony in Christ, they will recognize not only true doctrine, but the true methods that Christ uses to reveal his gospel to his children... and it is through his prophets, not everybody that thinks they have seen a spirit, or had a spiritual experience. Not recognizing this led to heretical chaos in the early Church, and Christ through his prophet Joseph Smith corrected this fallacy. I have a testimony that if Christ wants to reveal a new truth to his children, he will do it though his annotated prophets...

So I will follow Christs instruction, given through Joseph Smith, and listen to the counsel of his prophet, Russell M Nelson, and not follow your rejection of Christ's teachings via Joseph Smith, and follow you into the pit of convincing myself that the Spirit testifies that Amonhi Is a prophet, or that his teachings are true!

Which spirit was that that convinced you as to the Truth of Amonhi's teachings regarding getting Christ to come sit at the foot of your bed and make your C&E made sure?

If you are listening to that spirit, you don't know the difference between a spirit of Satan, and the HG!

Regards,

George Clay

Huh?

-Finrock